Pregnant woman dies in UCHG after being refused a termination

poeticseraphim

Fuinseog wrote: »

i will have to tune it. the opinions of south dubliners are all that matters. we might get to hear amusing statements about rural ireland i.e anywhere outside dublin.

It is all over the BBC and the international news too..that good enough for you???

It is on BBC 5..can you count to 5???

Fuinseog

gozunda wrote: »

Ehhh your logic is erstwise....that is exactly what I advocated. I hope it does go to court and that the doctor in question is found guilty

A woman is dead because of one persons "catholic beliefs" being forced upon her and a lack of necessary medical interavention

What exactly dont you get about this?

I reckon there is a very good case there for manslaughter at least and btw no one is getting hysterical the reply was in response to the "every sperm is sacred" poster - see above ....

so the doctor acted according to his catholic beliefs(although we have no way of knowing what his religion is) as opposed to the law of the land?

gozunda

Zulu wrote: »

Also, people beating the "murder" drum should take a step back from the keyboards and have a little think.
Real doctors & nurses were involved in this case, accusing them of "murder" is pretty fu(king sad.
Cop yourselves on. FFS.
It's times like this that boards never fails to disappoint.

So dO you believe that doctors or other medical staff cannot be found guilty of manslaughter or murder?

I will refer you to the Shipman and other angel of death cases.

The woman was denied necessary medical attention and died as a result - why does that not at least constitute manslaughter at least where the inaction without reason caused this young womans death.

Doctors and consultants (like the RCC) cannot be held to be above the law

I really do hope the family take a criminal case against that doctor - then perhaps at least some justice will have been done

rovert

I am living in a Catholic Country listening to Electric music.

OldNotWIse

Akrasia wrote: »

So what you're saying is that you believe there are women out there who are too irresponsible to use contraception but responsible enough to raise a child?

Your belief that a non sentient group of cells would suffer more from a termination, than a child would suffer from being raised in circumstances where he/she is not wanted and the parent is not equipped to raise him or her is clearly a religious one, and you have no right to impose your religious fantasy onto others with the kinds of horrific consequences that we all woke up to this morning.

My sincerest sympathies are with the the family of that poor woman who was treated so appallingly, being denied essential life saving medical treatment because of a religious dogma imposed upon them by the state. This would be appalling if it happened in Afghanistan, never mind Ireland, a supposedly enlightened and modern nation

We should be ashamed of how we treated that family.

One simple question for you: why are you bringing religion into this?

Ok its actually two questions: do you think that all people who are pro life are religious?

Raiser

ABajaninCork wrote: »

OMG!! I've just read the story. I hope to God it isn't true. How the **** could they leave that poor woman to die in agony?:eek: You wouldn't do that to a dog!

The difference is that hypocritical, medieval, crucifix-bearing Paedophiles in odd dresses and pointy purple hats don't interfere with veterinary decisions based on the 'wisdom' of their imaginary friend in the sky.

- They only exist to make human lives miserable while extorting money from the 'devout' in their ranks......

HeyThereDeliah

gozunda wrote: »

Ehhh your logic is erstwise....that is exactly what I advocated. I hope it does go to court and that the doctor in question is found guilty

A woman is dead because of one persons "catholic beliefs" being forced upon her and a lack of necessary medical interavention

What exactly dont you get about this?

I reckon there is a very good case there for manslaughter at least and btw no one is getting hysterical the reply was in response to the "every sperm is sacred" poster - see above ....

How can he be found guilty of manslaughter?
Who said it was his /her catholic beliefs ?

We do not know the full facts of the case yet.

westies4ever

The attitudes and opinions displayed on this thread are among the most upsetting and down right infuriating I have ever come across.

A woman is dead, a man has lost his wife and unborn child and people are using this to push their own agenda's. urgh.

Fuinseog

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Simply pointing out that the YD spokesman is wrong, the Irish people did NOT reject abortion in the last referendum, if you dont like that fact I cant help it.

I am not great at maths here but if they did not reject abortion then it was accepted in the last referendum and we now have legalised abortion?

OldNotWIse

gozunda wrote: »

So dO you believe that doctors or other medical staff cannot be found guilty of manslaughter or murder?

I will refer you to the Shipman and other angel of death cases.

The woman was denied necessary medical attention and died as a result - why does that not at least constitute manslaughter at least where the inaction without reason caused this young womans death.

Doctors and consultants (like the RCC) cannot be held to be above the law

I really do hope the family take a criminal case against that doctor - then perhaps at least some justice will have been done

Simply put, the doctor was acting within the constraints imposed on him by our law/lack of legislation. He had no legal obligation to perform an abortion. So, he cannot be found guilty of murder or manslaughter. These are the facts, whether you like them or not does not change them.

poeticseraphim

westies4ever wrote: »

The attitudes and opinions displayed on this thread are among the most upsetting and down right infuriating I have ever come across.

A woman is dead, a man has lost his wife and unborn child and people are using this to push their own agenda's. urgh.

It was his agenda..He repeatedly asked for his wife to have an abortion.

She repeatedly asked for an abortion.

It was his wish to bring this to public attention.


He stated that in India this could have been ended in hours.

It is their agenda

eviltwin

Fuinseog wrote: »

I am not great at maths here but if they did not reject abortion then it was accepted in the last referendum and we now have legalised abortion?

No!!! Read the facts will you? We didn't vote Yes to abortion in all circumstances only those where the life of the mother is at risk but we've yet to decide what that actually means so unless a doctor wants to be stuck off or god forbid jailed they have their hands tied.

gozunda

Fuinseog wrote: »

so the doctor acted according to his catholic beliefs(although we have no way of knowing what his religion is) as opposed to the law of the land?

The doctor is obliged to act with regard to medical ethics and not some medievel claptrap. The law of the land states that the intervention is allowed where the life of the mother is at risk

That is one of the major things that is wrong with this damned country - little scrotes using their "private" religous beliefs to dominate and control others

So I take it that you advocate the murder of women?

Mod

Folks, Fuinseog has been banned from After Hours for a while so replying to him at this stage is futile.

Morag

Fuinseog wrote: »

I am not great at maths here but if they did not reject abortion then it was accepted in the last referendum and we now have legalised abortion?

We have always had legal abortion/termination to a certain extent.
The ending of an ectopic pregnancy by medical and surgical means is a legal abortion.

Yes the referendum in 1992 on the XCase ruling means that we do have legal remit for abortion when the life of the mother is in mediate risk, but as it was never legislated for the Offences against the Person Act 1861 (old British law) is still in force.

If there is no legislation then there can be no procedures and polices under which a Dr can lawfully act.

Legislating for the XCase will not lead to abortion on demand or for termination for medical reasons when the baby is not going to survive the birth.

spank_inferno

The women of Ireland really need to wake up on this.

With the above tragic case and recent cases where proven rape is absolved with a cash fine it's clear to see that 'official Ireland' still has a major problem with Women.

Local-womanizer

Another referendum is needed on the issue. 20 years is a long time in relation to this issue. Ireland has changed a lot with regards church influence etc

I'd be very much pro-choice, especially in cases such as this. I wouldn't agree with abortion being used as a morning after solution so to speak.

At the end of the day I think a person should have the complete control over their own body.

This is a tragic case. my heart goes out to all involved.

And for people saying that its wrong for this case to be used to push an agenda, if it was a family member belonging to me I would be fighting tooth and nail so no one else would have to suffer and the death was not for nothing.

glynf

Why in this day and age is this still happening? People that are willing to put their own beliefs before the health and well being of a sick person should not be allowed make decisions like this.

Each and every one of these bible thumping scumbags should be gradually weeded out of the hse and education systems.

Pawwed Rig

And we wonder why Ireland is portrayed in foreign media as a backward joke of a nation.
This is another shameful even in our history and my heart goes out to that poor lady and her family

gozunda

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Simply put, the doctor was acting within the constraints imposed on him by our law/lack of legislation. He had no legal obligation to perform an abortion. So, he cannot be found guilty of murder or manslaughter. These are the facts, whether you like them or not does not change them.

I do not think so my friend. The doctor was acting on his stated preferred religous stance. A stance held by UCHG as demonstated in the recent "Dublin Declaration"

The state allows for intervention to save the life of the mother so yes he could possibly be found guilty of manslaughter or muder. Your facts are far from factual I am afraid

If a doctor cannot make this call - who can? As he refused the woman the necessary medical intervention and if she died as a result - he is at least medically negligent and at worst could be charged on a number of counts

VinLieger

Jev/N wrote: »

I think what people are fogetting here is that AFAIK the government can't legislate for anything of the sort unless and until a referendum is passed changing the Constitution and allowing for legislation to deal with these cases.

This has been attempted, TWICE, and both times defeated.

The issue appears to be with the voting Irish public

NO they HAVE TO legislate for abortion in this case, we have been fined by the UN for not doing so and the Supreme Court stated as much through the X case, this is not a referendum issue.

spank_inferno

VinLieger wrote: »

NO they HAVE TO legislate for abortion in this case, we have been fined by the UN for not doing so and the Supreme Court stated as much through the X case, this is not a referendum issue.

Exactly.
Referendums are irrelevent.

The Supreme Court has clear presedent.
The EU have ordered legislation.

OldNotWIse

gozunda wrote: »

I do not think so my friend. The doctor was acting on his stated preferred religous stance. A stance held by UCHG as demonstated in the recent "Dublin Declaration"

The state allows for intervention to save the life of the mother so yes he could possibly be found guilty of manslaughter or muder. Your facts are far from factual I am afraid

If a doctor cannot make this call - who can? As he refused the woman the necessary medical intervention and if she died as a result - he is at least medically negligent and at worst could be charged on a number of counts

Sorry but I'm not your friend, I dont make friends that easily with strangers on the internet

He was acting within the law, not within his "stated religious stance".

He cannot be found guilty of negligence through omission as there was no legal obligation imposed on him to carry out a termination.

ash23

I am so saddened that a woman who was losing her baby was left in pain for 3 days. Even if she had survived, that alone would be enough for me to be appalled.

The fact that she also lost her life is just incomprehensible. When is this country going to wake up and realise that sometime abortion IS the answer.

A referendum is needed. Most boardsies weren't even alive or old enough to vote when the last one was carried out (myself included).

When do our generation get the right to have a say on the abortion issue?

Raiser

Surely this is what happens when young people don't vote - If more people headed to the polling station on the day instead of crashing on the couch with 9 long neck bottles of Bud then it would be their voices of reason being heard and not the stilted, anachronistic, dumb, and evil views of Bridie and Nora from the local church car park.

This ignorance and apathy is what gives us our 2D scumbag politicians and this is what makes Ireland such a backwards, inefficient, corrupt, sewer to live in.

- Our ridiculous politicians have blood on their hands cause its easier to dodge the issue of legislating for these eventualities (like a first world society would) than to upset the god-fearing, maaaaaaass going Cretins who vote them in time and time again.....

The rest of you are guilty of not voting to effect change*

P.S. If you do vote then don't bother crying and getting angsty as obviously I'm not talking about you.

Vicxas

ash23 wrote: »

I am so saddened that a woman who was losing her baby was left in pain for 3 days. Even if she had survived, that alone would be enough for me to be appalled.

The fact that she also lost her life is just incomprehensible. When is this country going to wake up and realise that sometime abortion IS the answer.

A referendum is needed. Most boardsies weren't even alive or old enough to vote when the last one was carried out (myself included).

When do our generation get the right to have a say on the abortion issue?

+1 on this,

Ireland needs to come out of the dark ages on this. We've been under the Chruch's thumb for long enough on this stuff.

death1234567

Disgrace. Just shows you
1. what a backward s&*^hole this country is
2. How completely incompotent the political system is.

Standard Toaster

If an Irish woman was denied life-saving medical treatment under Islamic or Hindu laws, & died in a foreign hospital, we'd call it medieval

up for anything

Local-womanizer wrote: »

I wouldn't agree with abortion being used as a morning after solution so to speak.

At the end of the day I think a person should have the complete control over their own body.

One sentence contradicts the other.

OldNotWIse

Vicxas wrote: »

+1 on this,

Ireland needs to come out of the dark ages on this. We've been under the Chruch's thumb for long enough on this stuff.

Do you think everyone who is pro life is religious?

It's funny how you guys always resort to the "bible bashing" stick yet when I say I am not religious but still pro life the response is usually a wall of silence...

Local-womanizer

up for anything wrote: »

One sentence contradicts the other.

Not really, I wouldn't agree with it but who am I to tell a complete stranger what she can do with her body?

Could have phrased it better!

OldNotWIse

death1234567 wrote: »

Disgrace. Just shows you
1. what a backward s&*^hole this country is
2. How completely incompotent the political system is.

I knew that already. I didn't need to invoke another family's suffering to prove that to myself or anyone else.

upstairs for coffee

FrogMarch wrote: »

While so many others are behind their computer screens are using this poor woman and her child to preach pro-choice or militant feminist views.

Until the facts of this case are revealed in full, almost every single person on this thread is guilty of dishonouring this woman by getting on their soapbox for a good old, self-righteous rant. Shame on you.

Shame on me? Yes, shame on me for defending the woman and her family from being discarded by a pro-life as a "sob story". Yup, that's self-righteousness all right.

Your view laissez-faire attitude to the incident, the "let's wait and see" idea is abhorrent and stops the right thing from being done.

I'm not a pro-life or pro-choice, I'm a common sense type. Common sense dictates that if the woman had been allowed an abortion, her chances of survival would have increased dramatically and her physical pain and suffering would have been reduced tenfold.

spaceHopper

I don't know if a referendum is necessary the last one left it that where the life of the mother was at risk an abortion was allowed. After it Berty Ahen was quoted as says he was in no hurry to legistate for it.

This case is pure black and white - she should have been helped and here life was wasted, if she had other childern they are now with out a mother.

We just had a referendum so that the wishes of childern will be listend to - they ignored the needs of an adult - moral people!

Vicxas

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Do you think everyone who is pro life is religious?

It's funny how you guys always resort to the "bible bashing" stick yet when I say I am not religious but still pro life the response is usually a wall of silence...

Ok, that was a sweeping generalisation, but the majority of Pro-lifers are deeply religious.

Jev/N

VinLieger wrote: »

NO they HAVE TO legislate for abortion in this case, we have been fined by the UN for not doing so and the Supreme Court stated as much through the X case, this is not a referendum issue.

Acutally scratched my post, you're right, the Constitution does allow for legislating. Never mind

GLaDOS

Was very angry and upset when I read this last night. The poor husband has lost his expected child, and because our country failed them, lost his wife as well.

OldNotWIse

Vicxas wrote: »

Ok, that was a sweeping generalisation, but the majority of Pro-lifers are deeply religious.

Really? On what do you base that assumption?

Dr_Teeth

Just read the Indo's front page article on this. What a ****ing rag that paper is. Unreal that they would editorialize a story like this.

Dodge

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Do you think everyone who is pro life is religious?

It's funny how you guys always resort to the "bible bashing" stick yet when I say I am not religious but still pro life the response is usually a wall of silence...

Well both sides use generalities. There's no doubt in this country the driving force behind anti-choice propaganda is religon based (specifically Roman Catholic)

With the risk of sounding pompous, the greater argument is about freedom to choose. If we (again I'm generalising) didn't allow the catholic church hierarchy to have such a say in the country, and people decided to be anti-choice, then thats their decision

But there's absolutely no doubt that in this country, the vast majority of anti-choice campaigners are doing so because of their Catholicism

jaja321

There is a protest at the Dail today at 6pm if anyone is interested.

Vicxas

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Really? On what do you base that assumption?

The majority of news, vidoes, youtubes ive seen on the subject have all stated that this is against "gods will"

I dont think that i was just having a pop at religion for nothing.

Handsome Bob

Duggy747 wrote: »

What should've been the beginning of a family has now left a man with nothing.

Stupid shìt like this shouldn't happen in a developed country.

Best post in the thread. Can't imagine what it was like over those 3 days for both wife and husband having their pleas consistently rejected. As someone alluded to already, I can only hope that that "we're a catholic country" comment has further context and was a lament rather than a de facto statement.

OldNotWIse

Dodge wrote: »

Well both sides use generalities. There's no doubt in this country the driving force behind anti-choice propaganda is religon based (specifically Roman Catholic)

With the risk of sounding pompous, the greater argument is about freedom to choose. If we (again I'm generalising) didn't allow the catholic church hierarchy to have such a say in the country, and people decided to be anti-choice, then thats their decision

But there's absolutely no doubt that in this country, the vast majority of anti-choice pro life campaigners are doing so because of their Catholicism

Two wrongs do not make a right.

But you see, there is doubt. Saying "there's no doubt" and then inserting what you want to believe does not actually form a valid statement of fact.

Your last sentence is simply a repeat attmept to do so.

OldNotWIse

Vicxas wrote: »

The majority of news, vidoes, youtubes ive seen on the subject have all stated that this is against "gods will"

I dont think that i was just having a pop at religion for nothing.

I never said you were having a pop at religion. No offense but I dont give a rodents rearend if you are because, as I already stated, I am not religious. Fairytales just dont do it for me.

I have yet to hear anyone pro life saying anything about "gods will" - unless all the "news, videos, youtubes" you are watching are...the God channel etc....

Vicxas

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I never said you were having a pop at religion. No offense but I dont give a rodents rearend if you are because, as I already stated, I am not religious. Fairytales just dont do it for me.

I have yet to hear anyone pro life saying anything about "gods will" - unless all the "news, videos, youtubes" you are watching are...the God channel etc....

Christ i couldnt watch the god channel, would bash my head off a wall....

Morag

ash23 wrote: »

When do our generation get the right to have a say on the abortion issue?

You get your say by lobbying your TDs, email, them ring them, turn up to talk to them in person.

OldNotWIse

jaja321 wrote: »

There is a protest at the Dail today at 6pm if anyone is interested.

Quick close the stable door, the horse has bolted.

Answer them better to start a petition/lobby politicians etc to bring in legislation to prevent tragedies like this happening in the future. If a womans life is in danger, she should have access to an abortion - simple. This should be the focus of energies and anger now. At least channel it into something useful.

Dodge

OldNotWIse wrote: »

But you see, there is doubt. Saying "there's no doubt" and then inserting what you want to believe does not actually form a valid statement of fact.

Your last sentence is simply a repeat attmept to do so.

can you point me in the direction of any secular anti-choice bodies in Ireland?

iregk

jaja321 wrote: »

There is a protest at the Dail today at 6pm if anyone is interested.

By intelligent open minded people saying this is an absolute disgrace or by pro life bible wavers claiming it as murder?