PAYE workers facing €3,000 tax hit after Budget

leonidas83

PAYE workers will be hit with tax hikes of more than €3,000 in next month's Budget.
A new property tax, a higher universal social charge and the lowering of pensions tax relief will suck thousands of euro out of the average household, projections from consultancy firm Grant Thornton show.
Although income tax rates will remain unchanged, other levies and charges mean that next month's Budget will be one of the worst of the past five.
The firm also predicts property tax will be applied at 0.25pc on the value of a home.
But next year the Government has indicated that the property tax will only apply from the second half of the year.
This would mean a €400,000 house would end up costing €600 next year, made up of €500 in property tax for the half year and €100 for the household charge. Environment Minister Phil Hogan refused to give a pre-Budget leak on the amount householders will pay in property taxes next year, citing his past resignation over similar leaks.
The minister refused to put a cost on the property tax when he appeared before the Oireachtas Environment Committee.
He resigned as Minister of State at the Department of Finance in 1995 when Budget details were sent to to a journalist before it was announced.
Partner with Grant Thornton, Peter Vale, said he also expects Finance Minister Michael Noonan to hike the top rate of the universal social charge (USC) from 7pc to 8pc.
Pensions
A new 8pc USC rate will cost a couple with a joint income of €80,000 an extra €690 a year.
Grant Thornton says employee PRSI – currently levied at 4pc – will be extended to non-employment income such as dividends and rents from property investments.
A reduction in tax relief on pension contributions from 41pc to 20pc, will cost €2,520 a year for a couple on €80,000.
And Grant Thornton also expects increases to motor tax rates, higher deposit interest retention tax (DIRT), and levies on cigarettes and alcohol.
Mr Vale said: "With at least €3.5bn being sought from expenditure savings and tax increases, we will all be feeling considerably less well off on December 5."
The expected Budgetary hikes will cost a family on €40,000 an extra €3,250. Those on €80,000 will be hit for €5,410, while a family earning €150,000 will be €8,750 out of pocket.
Meanwhile, figures from the Central Bank show average debt for every man, woman and child is now €38,938. But net wealth – made up of the value of houses and financial assets, minus borrowings– stands at over €90,000.
- Charlie Weston and Treacy Hogan

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paye-workers-facing-3000-tax-hit-after-budget-3293727.html

I know this is probably just more scaremongoring from this spineless government before the real budget but If they go ahead with PAYE increases of anywhere near that amount I think It will be the straw that breaks the camels back.

There is genuine disdain for alot of the policies this government have pursued over the last 18 months & if they survive this budget I will be surprised.

There has been no genuine reform in the HSE, only disaster after disaster, no re-negotiation of the Croke Park deal, something which badly needed to be looked at, no deal as yet on the bank debt despite promises otherwise along with a series of other failures. The only thing this government has been successful at is raising taxes for middle income people but this is even debatable after the debacle that was the property tax.

They are an utter disgrace

frankosw

leonidas83 wrote: »

PAYE workers will be hit with tax hikes of more than €3,000 in next month's Budget.
A new property tax, a higher universal social charge and the lowering of pensions tax relief will suck thousands of euro out of the average household, projections from consultancy firm Grant Thornton show.
Although income tax rates will remain unchanged, other levies and charges mean that next month's Budget will be one of the worst of the past five.
The firm also predicts property tax will be applied at 0.25pc on the value of a home.
But next year the Government has indicated that the property tax will only apply from the second half of the year.
This would mean a €400,000 house would end up costing €600 next year, made up of €500 in property tax for the half year and €100 for the household charge. Environment Minister Phil Hogan refused to give a pre-Budget leak on the amount householders will pay in property taxes next year, citing his past resignation over similar leaks.
The minister refused to put a cost on the property tax when he appeared before the Oireachtas Environment Committee.
He resigned as Minister of State at the Department of Finance in 1995 when Budget details were sent to to a journalist before it was announced.
Partner with Grant Thornton, Peter Vale, said he also expects Finance Minister Michael Noonan to hike the top rate of the universal social charge (USC) from 7pc to 8pc.
Pensions
A new 8pc USC rate will cost a couple with a joint income of €80,000 an extra €690 a year.
Grant Thornton says employee PRSI – currently levied at 4pc – will be extended to non-employment income such as dividends and rents from property investments.
A reduction in tax relief on pension contributions from 41pc to 20pc, will cost €2,520 a year for a couple on €80,000.
And Grant Thornton also expects increases to motor tax rates, higher deposit interest retention tax (DIRT), and levies on cigarettes and alcohol.
Mr Vale said: "With at least €3.5bn being sought from expenditure savings and tax increases, we will all be feeling considerably less well off on December 5."
The expected Budgetary hikes will cost a family on €40,000 an extra €3,250. Those on €80,000 will be hit for €5,410, while a family earning €150,000 will be €8,750 out of pocket.
Meanwhile, figures from the Central Bank show average debt for every man, woman and child is now €38,938. But net wealth – made up of the value of houses and financial assets, minus borrowings– stands at over €90,000.
- Charlie Weston and Treacy Hogan

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/paye-workers-facing-3000-tax-hit-after-budget-3293727.html

I know this is probably just more scaremongoring from this spineless government before the real budget but If they go ahead with PAYE increases of anywhere near that amount I think It will be the straw that breaks the camels back.

There is genuine disdain for alot of the policies this government have pursued over the last 18 months & if they survive this budget I will be surprised.

There has been no genuine reform in the HSE, only disaster after disaster, no re-negotiation of the Croke Park deal, something which badly needed to be looked at, no deal as yet on the bank debt despite promises otherwise along with a series of other failures. The only thing this government has been successful at is raising taxes for middle income people but this is even debatable after the debacle that was the property tax.

They are an utter disgrace

More crap and nonsense..i notice you didnt mention social welfare...why's that then?

leonidas83

frankosw wrote: »

More crap and nonsense..i notice you didnt mention social welfare...why's that then?

Contribute something useful to the thread or dont contribute at all. I have no issues whatsoever with social welfare being cut, I would actually encourage it. Re negogiation of the croke park deal is something that will have to happen one way or the other, deal with it.

frankosw

leonidas83 wrote: »

. Re negogiation of the croke park deal is something that will have to happen one way or the other, deal with it.

Can you explain why,exactly?

Its funny that the people who leant the country the money are quite happy with the way the deal is progressing,as are the Govt but maybe you can explain how you know better?

Head The Wall

frankosw wrote: »

More crap and nonsense..i notice you didnt mention social welfare...why's that then?

It would be interesting to hear your explanation for why the CPA shouldn't be scrapped. There was a clause where unforeseen budgetary circumstances should have ended it.

Seemingly a bailout from the IMF doesn't constitute an issue, although when there is still the same muppets in the Finance dept doing the maths there shouldn't be too much expected.

Head The Wall

frankosw wrote: »

Can you explain why,exactly?

Its funny that the people who leant the country the money are quite happy with the way the deal is progressing,as are the Govt but maybe you can explain how you know better?

No they are happy that the payments are being made and that is all. It is not the IMF or ECB that has to suffer reduced services or emigrate because of the choices of the govt.

Gurgle

leonidas83 wrote: »

I know this is probably just more scaremongoring from this spineless government before the real budget

Odd that you blame the government for scaremongering, when the only part of the article referring to a government source is:

leonidas83 wrote: »

Environment Minister Phil Hogan refused to give a pre-Budget leak

leonidas83

Gurgle wrote: »

Odd that you blame the government for scaremongering, when the only part of the article referring to a government source is:

And you think these stories come from thin air do you, deluded much??

leonidas83

frankosw wrote: »

Can you explain why,exactly?

Its funny that the people who leant the country the money are quite happy with the way the deal is progressing,as are the Govt but maybe you can explain how you know better?

The IMF are only happy as long as targets are being met, when the average private worker has had enough of carrying the burden where do you think they will look next. I bet it will be a minority of the workforce who believe they are entitled to pay rises indefinitely even though their employer is bankrupt.

frankosw

Head The Wall wrote: »

It would be interesting to hear your explanation for why the CPA shouldn't be scrapped. There was a clause where unforeseen budgetary circumstances should have ended it.

.

Why do you think it should be scrapped?

Do you think the scrapping of the PSA is going to save countless billions of euro because the PS will all suddenly have thier pay cut by 40%?

Who will provide public services when everybody goes out on strike?

Maybe the people on the dole will take crash courses in how to be teachers and nurses for 25 k a year and that will be the end of the crises?

The PSA is the only thing stopping ghuge sections of overworked departments engaging in a work to rule,ban on overtime or refusal to cover unreplaced staff...and before you start up that they shoulod all be sacked *everybody* has the right to industrial action and a labour court hearing...just look at Aer Lingus,the Electricians,barman's union a while back and the taxi driver's unions every year or so.

frankosw

leonidas83 wrote: »

The IMF are only happy as long as targets are being met, when the average private worker has had enough of carrying the burden where do you think they will look next..

Nonsense..the PS have ALL taken paycuts whereas most of the private sector havnt...how does that equate to the private sector taking the "burden"?

How many of the private sector are fully tax compliant?

Builders,electricians,plasterers,plumbers,gardeners etc etc work cash in hand to the tune of 25 billion a year.

Where's thier share of the "burden"?

leonidas83 wrote: »

where do you think they will look next..

The dole if they have any balls..there's thousands upon thousands of people living high off the hog without working and it is this thats bleeding the country white.

Believe me the free money society will be slashed before they start cutting PS pay.

ardmacha

Re negogiation of the croke park deal is something that will have to happen one way or the other, deal with it.

The introduction of a tax structure comparable to other West European nations is going to happen one way or the other, deal with it.

Head The Wall

frankosw wrote: »

Why do you think it should be scrapped?

Do you think the scrapping of the PSA is going to save countless billions of euro because the PS will all suddenly have thier pay cut by 40%?

Who will provide public services when everybody goes out on strike?

Maybe the people on the dole will take crash courses in how to be teachers and nurses for 25 k a year and that will be the end of the crises?

The PSA is the only thing stopping ghuge sections of overworked departments engaging in a work to rule,ban on overtime or refusal to cover unreplaced staff...and before you start up that they shoulod all be sacked *everybody* has the right to industrial action and a labour court hearing...just look at Aer Lingus,the Electricians,barman's union a while back and the taxi driver's unions every year or so.

Blah, blah, blah the CPA is one of many issues that the govt "need" to tackle but won't.

You'd want to watch out for high blood pressure with the level of defensive ranting you do for the PS on here

leonidas83

frankosw wrote: »

Why do you think it should be scrapped?

Do you think the scrapping of the PSA is going to save countless billions of euro because the PS will all suddenly have thier pay cut by 40%?

Who will provide public services when everybody goes out on strike?

Maybe the people on the dole will take crash courses in how to be teachers and nurses for 25 k a year and that will be the end of the crises?

The PSA is the only thing stopping ghuge sections of overworked departments engaging in a work to rule,ban on overtime or refusal to cover unreplaced staff...and before you start up that they shoulod all be sacked *everybody* has the right to industrial action and a labour court hearing...just look at Aer Lingus,the Electricians,barman's union a while back and the taxi driver's unions every year or so.

Threats. Its no longer going to work. People have had enough.

You mention overworked departments, well why dont we look more closely at why this is so, maybe its because nearly 80% of the teachers budget is spent on wages & 75% of the health budget.

This is why we need a government with a bit of backbone, you dont like your pay & conditions here, go abroad and see how you get on, im sure it'll be a real eye opener

leonidas83

ardmacha wrote: »

The introduction of a tax structure comparable to other West European nations is going to happen one way or the other, deal with it.

Interesting, please show me a tax structure more severe than ours (include stealth taxes aswell) in the EU with a similar GDP?

leonidas83

frankosw wrote: »

Nonsense..the PS have ALL taken paycuts whereas most of the private sector havnt...how does that equate to the private sector taking the "burden"?

How many of the private sector are fully tax compliant?

Builders,electricians,plasterers,plumbers,gardeners etc etc work cash in hand to the tune of 25 billion a year.

Where's thier share of the "burden"?





The dole if they have any balls..there's thousands upon thousands of people living high off the hog without working and it is this thats bleeding the country white.

Believe me the free money society will be slashed before they start cutting PS pay.

lol:) Are you serious, what planet are you living on? the private sector have taken cuts with their jobs. Look at the unemployment rate, its nearly the same as the employment rate of our glorified public sector.

Agree that social welfare fraud needs to be looked at in a big way but look at whos responsible for this, the department of social protection, another joke of a public service body in this country.

Gurgle

leonidas83 wrote: »

nearly 80% of the teachers budget is spent on wages

1. Source?
2. Whos wages? (i.e. how much on actual teachers wages)
3. What are they doing with the other 20%
4. Why would someone continue to teach when they can earn more in the private sector?*

*This is something that often gets missed: Pay levels should be properly benchmarked to the private sector comparing like with like. An art teacher should not be on the same pay scale as a maths teacher.

leonidas83

Gurgle wrote: »

1. Source?
2. Whos wages? (i.e. how much on actual teachers wages)
3. What are they doing with the other 20%
4. Why would someone continue to teach when they can earn more in the private sector?*

*This is something that often gets missed: Pay levels should be properly benchmarked to the private sector comparing like with like. An art teacher should not be on the same pay scale as a maths teacher.

Why dont you start providing sources for your statements & ill do likewise, Capeesh

Gurgle

leonidas83 wrote: »

Why dont you start providing sources for your statements & ill do likewise, Capeesh

Sure, which statement would you like me to support with links?

leonidas83

ardmacha wrote: »

The introduction of a tax structure comparable to other West European nations is going to happen one way or the other, deal with it.

How about this one, tax structures in Europe that are worse or similar than ours with a similar GPD like I asked you to provide already.

frankosw

leonidas83 wrote: »

the private sector have taken cuts with their jobs. Look at the unemployment rate, its nearly the same as the employment rate of our glorified public sector.

.

And your point is what?

The way i see it you're calling for paycuts because there's a lot of people on the dole that need to be paid...why not create jobs instead,a good idea is to lift the moratorium on PS recruitment that was brought in as part of a hare-brained scheme to "save money".

frankosw

ardmacha wrote: »

The introduction of a tax structure comparable to other West European nations is going to happen one way or the other, deal with it.

Ah such as the much ballyhooed Corporation Tax?

Why is that so much lower in ireland if everybody is supposed to share the "burden"?

Duggys Housemate

The final stats there are ludicrous. It assumes a couple on 40K have a 400K house, to charge them 1K extra per year - but the tax is on the existing value of the house not the mortgage. The UPC is up from 7 to 8%. I can't see that costing 690 for someone on 80K per year.
Adding prsi to rental income is mad, but won't affect most people. The pension reduction is ludicrous, and it would have a cost on higher earners, for myself the only think is the upc tax.

hyperborean

Gurgle wrote: »

Sure, which statement would you like me to support with links?

http://www.budget.gov.ie/budgets/2012/Documents/CER%20-%20Estimates%20Final.pdf

section 26 has all the info you will need.

jmayo

frankosw wrote: »

Why do you think it should be scrapped?

Do you think the scrapping of the PSA is going to save countless billions of euro because the PS will all suddenly have thier pay cut by 40%?

Well it is hard to cut spending on health and education, two of the largest spending departments, when one cannot touch around 3/4 of the budget because it is off limits.

frankosw wrote: »

Who will provide public services when everybody goes out on strike?

Lets see how long you can afford to stay on strike.

frankosw wrote: »

Maybe the people on the dole will take crash courses in how to be teachers and nurses for 25 k a year and that will be the end of the crises?

There are unemployed teachers and nurses AFAIK.

Gurgle wrote: »

1. Source?
2. Whos wages? (i.e. how much on actual teachers wages)
3. What are they doing with the other 20%
4. Why would someone continue to teach when they can earn more in the private sector?*

*This is something that often gets missed: Pay levels should be properly benchmarked to the private sector comparing like with like. An art teacher should not be on the same pay scale as a maths teacher.

Ahh but who is actually preventing the payment of teachers based on merit ?
Is it not the teachers unions ?

frankosw wrote: »

Ah such as the much ballyhooed Corporation Tax?

Why is that so much lower in ireland if everybody is supposed to share the "burden"?

Ah FFS.
Yeah lets up the old Corpo tax rate and shure won't all those foreign companies stay for the best educated workforce in the world.

Please turn on sarcasm detector.

Duggys Housemate

frankosw wrote: »

Ah such as the much ballyhooed Corporation Tax?

Why is that so much lower in ireland if everybody is supposed to share the "burden"?

If it weren't lower, your tax would be 10% higher to pay for the lack of PAYE from the wages garnered from their employees. We should remove the barbados loopholes, though.

frankosw

jmayo wrote: »

Ah FFS.
Yeah lets up the old Corpo tax rate and shure won't all those foreign companies stay for the best educated workforce in the world.

Please turn on sarcasm detector.

So well educated that a majority of them dont want to work in low-payed jobs because they feel its beneath them.

How else do you explain the huge numbers of foreign nationals within the services and hospitality industries?

I will tell you something else..a lot of these foreigners are FAR better educated than thier irish equivilents and will,usually within 8 years find jobs comesurate with thier education and experience.

Take a trip up to Parnel st in dublin and see the number of businesses that are thriving and have been set up by chinese immigrants through hard bloody work.

Sitting on the dole waiting for the Foreign multinationals to set up shop and offer all graduates 40k plus companty car is not going to help the irish economy...the dole plus this so called "education" is breeding a generation of workshy wasters with nobody to blame for thier predicament but themselves.

Duggys Housemate

frankosw wrote: »

So well educated that a majority of them dont want to work in low-payed jobs because they feel its beneath them.

How else do you explain the huge numbers of foreign nationals within the services and hospitality industries?

I will tell you something else..a lot of these foreigners are FAR better educated than thier irish equivilents and will,usually within 8 years find jobs comesurate with thier education and experience.

Take a trip up to Parnel st in dublin and see the number of businesses that are thriving and have been set up by chinese immigrants through hard bloody work.

Sitting on the dole waiting for the Foreign multinationals to set up shop and offer all graduates 40k plus companty car is not going to help the irish economy...the dole plus this so called "education" is breeding a generation of workshy wasters with nobody to blame for thier predicament but themselves.

Ack the educated Irish are not work shy, thats a load of old bollocks. Nor are most Irish workers. As for it being the fault of recent Irish graduates that they have nobody "to blame for thier predicament but themselves." is the worst post of the year.

Having well educated foreigners is good, and actually makes our multi-nationals stickier than otherwise would be the case. People move to higher paid places if they are smart, so Google won't be paying Polish wages in Poland anytime soon.

antoobrien

Gurgle wrote: »

1. Source?
2. Whos wages? (i.e. how much on actual teachers wages)
3. What are they doing with the other 20%
4. Why would someone continue to teach when they can earn more in the private sector?*

The 80% figure was for the proportion of the Department of Education budget that went on salaries & pensions for all staff not just teachers. I can't remember which year it was for (last year or 2010 I think) but it was fairly accurate.

To inform the debate I've taken the 2012 figures from the Revised Estimates for Public Services 2012 (available on per.gov.ie)

Dept of Education budget for 2012 is 8.063bn (figures rounded to the nearest €100m)
|Salaries €bn| pensions €bn
Primary teachers | 2.065 | 0.493
Secondary | 1.148 | 0.351
Teacher's totals | 3.213 | 0.844
Total budgeted | 5.351bn | 1.103
Associated payees | 94,711 | 38,600

I don't have breakdowns for the numbers of teachers (primary/secondary) or the numbers of retired teachers.

RobbieTheRobber

leonidas83 wrote: »

Threats. Its no longer going to work. People have had enough.

You mention overworked departments, well why dont we look more closely at why this is so, maybe its because nearly 80% of the teachers budget is spent on wages & 75% of the health budget.

This is why we need a government with a bit of backbone, you dont like your pay & conditions here, go abroad and see how you get on, im sure it'll be a real eye opener

I dont know anything about health and education, but you know enough to comment on how their budgets should be spent, so can you tell me what is a correct percentage of their budgets to be spent on staff costs?

sock puppet

leonidas83 wrote: »

How about this one, tax structures in Europe that are worse or similar than ours with a similar GPD like I asked you to provide already.

Government spending is the lowest in the EU as a percentage of GDP as far as I'm aware. Add in our massive deficit and I don't think it's unreasonable to say we probably have among the lowest taxes in Europe.

frankosw

[QUOTE=Duggys Housemate;81741054People move to higher paid places if they are smart, so Google won't be paying Polish wages in Poland anytime soon.[/QUOTE]

Just like the beloved Dell didnt decide to move to Poland either?

This obsession with employment in foreign high tech companies is laughable..do people seriously think they're going to be around forever,especially in a basket case country like ireland?

Duggys Housemate

frankosw wrote: »

Just like the beloved Dell didnt decide to move to Poland either?

This obsession with employment in foreign high tech companies is laughable..do people seriously think they're going to be around forever,especially in a basket case country like ireland?

Dell was a low skilled low paid enterprise. I don't know if Google will be around forever, however as I said- and I said it clearly - the software engineers tend to go to the highest paid environment, not the lowest. Which means we have Europe's smartest here, not just Irelands. If google move to Poland on Polish wages, they won't follow.

frankosw

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Dell was a low skilled low paid enterprise.

It still employed people did it not?

Then it legged it to poland and put a thousand people out of work..whether they were high and mighty software engineers or not,they still depended on the place to pay the bills.

Duggys Housemate

frankosw wrote: »

It still employed people did it not?

Then it legged it to poland and put a thousand people out of work..whether they were high and mighty software engineers or not,they still depended on the place to pay the bills.

Yeah - look I am done with this. I started off by saying high paid enterprises are more sticky, and I have been repeating that point to every illogical thing you post on the issue. ( Dell didn't have dependence on " high and mighty software engineers " which is why they are gone).

This kind of posting is not going to improve, so well to my ignore list.

frankosw

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

software engineers tend to go to the highest paid environment, not the lowest. Which means we have Europe's smartest here, not just Irelands. .

Being a software engineer doesnt automatically make you smart..you study software engineering,it doesnt mean you have a varied skillset applicable to anything else.

Back in the early noughties we had several of these people working in the PS in non-software related jobs and they hadnt a clue about anything..one was looking for a company car for a job in a warehouse and another (american) actually said she wasd "overqualified for this job" and didnt bother coming in after about the third week.

BOHSBOHS

government spending and taxes as a percentage of GNP are far more relevant
to use for ireland.
and according to the IMF we have the 3rd HIGHEST expenditure to GNP ratio in the entire OECD.
(behind france and denmark btw)

Farmer Pudsey

frankosw wrote: »

Nonsense..the PS have ALL taken paycuts whereas most of the private sector havnt...how does that equate to the private sector taking the "burden"?

How many of the private sector are fully tax compliant?

Builders,electricians,plasterers,plumbers,gardeners etc etc work cash in hand to the tune of 25 billion a year.

Where's thier share of the "burden"?

The dole if they have any balls..there's thousands upon thousands of people living high off the hog without working and it is this thats bleeding the country white.

Believe me the free money society will be slashed before they start cutting PS pay.

First of all fact we have among the highest paid PS in europe, this is fact not conjecture. We also have a tax system where worker hit the high rate of tax over 100K earlier than a lot of other countries.

The black economy exists in every country and it has been proven that a high tax urden only encourages. The economic cost to the exchequer is costed at 5 billion if it was totally eliminated it runs to 16% of the economic activity and always rises in a recession and drops in aboom. In most countries it runs around 10% I think.

It is usually costed as if the same activity continued at the same cost and the tax was paid. In reality this would not happen. If through enforcement (let me see who enforces it the private sector??, the public service:eek:) we managed to reduce it by 50% it might mean an extra 1.5 billion taxes however I have to emphaise might as it is by all means not gauranteed to raise this amount of money.

The people who tend to pay cash the most are PAYE taxpayers as any self-employed person have tax benifits from reciepts for travel expensed, buisness expenses etc. As for B&B taking cash it is only small change as hotels are so cheap that nobody stays in B&B's now.

I cannot see the type of take take that the Cork exanimer quote however the government have a choice it is either to protect the private sector and keeps costs off them and hope that we get a recovery or else let the PS and the unemployed off the hook again. From what we see it will be the latter again

Gurgle

antoobrien wrote: »

The 80% figure was for the proportion of the Department of Education budget that went on salaries & pensions for all staff not just teachers. I can't remember which year it was for (last year or 2010 I think) but it was fairly accurate.

To inform the debate I've taken the 2012 figures from the Revised Estimates for Public Services 2012 (available on per.gov.ie)

Dept of Education budget for 2012 is 8.063bn (figures rounded to the nearest €100m)
|Salaries €bn| pensions €bn
Primary teachers | 2.065 | 0.493
Secondary | 1.148 | 0.351
Teacher's totals | 3.213 | 0.844
Total budgeted | 5.351bn | 1.103
Associated payees | 94,711 | 38,600

€5.351bn is spent on salaries out of €8.063bn... that's 66% according to my calculator.

€3.213bn spent on teachers salaries, so 39.8% of the Department of Education budget is spent on paying the people who do the educating.

€2.1bn on salaries to non-teachers.
Has anyone got an explanation for this?

BOHSBOHS

the 2.1 billion is probably mostly 3rd level salaries and some admin staff?

frankosw

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

government have a choice it is either to protect the private sector and keeps costs off them and hope that we get a recovery or else let the PS and the unemployed off the hook again. From what we see it will be the latter again

Where exactly do the Public Sector spend thier wages?

Pubs,shops,hotels,restuarants...the private sector generally..do you think that by taking money out of people's pockets(again) they will still spend the same money on luxuries and staples alike as they did before?

Is taking money from th economy going to stimulate spending within the economy?

Can we cut our way out a recession?

Course not..its beyond foolish to think so.

frankosw

Gurgle wrote: »

€2.1bn on salaries to non-teachers.
Has anyone got an explanation for this?

Yes..running a school costs money,its not just about teachers.

Farmer Pudsey

frankosw wrote: »

Where exactly do the Public Sector spend thier wages?

Pubs,shops,hotels,restuarants...the private sector generally..do you think that by taking money out of people's pockets(again) they will still spend the same money on luxuries and staples alike as they did before?

Is taking money from th economy going to stimulate spending within the economy?

Can we cut our way out a recession?

Course not..its beyond foolish to think so.

No matter where the government raise money they will take it out of someone's pocket, if they continue to protect PS and social welfare then it will effect private sector more than removing some of the fat from the public sector.

Of course somebody will buy our bonds to continue to let PS's live in the livestyle they are accustomed to and to continue to pay an average wage of 49K that is 50% higher that the average private sector wage.

The reality is that the only way we can get the economy moving is for the private sector to have costs low enough so that we can export products that will increase our wealth that will then drive the economy.

Course..... it foolish to think of that

jmayo

frankosw wrote: »

So well educated that a majority of them dont want to work in low-payed jobs because they feel its beneath them.

How else do you explain the huge numbers of foreign nationals within the services and hospitality industries?

Ok don't get me started on how we supposedly had a 100,000 on the dole at height of boom yet needed to import foreign workers to do menial jobs.

frankosw wrote: »

I will tell you something else..a lot of these foreigners are FAR better educated than thier irish equivilents and will,usually within 8 years find jobs comesurate with thier education and experience.

True.
What is your point ?

frankosw wrote: »

Sitting on the dole waiting for the Foreign multinationals to set up shop and offer all graduates 40k plus companty car is not going to help the irish economy...the dole plus this so called "education" is breeding a generation of workshy wasters with nobody to blame for thier predicament but themselves.

[/QUOTE]

Ehh we have had a lot of workshy wasters for too long in this country, and it isn't fair blaming the lastest batch of kids leaving school/college for fact they can't get jobs.
During the boom we should have cut dole for long term unemployed, instead bertie decided there were more votes in upping it even though there were lots of jobs being filled by importing individuals from non EU countries.
I don't subscribe to the idea that full employment still means 4 to 5% of the population are being rewarded for sitting on their ar**s.
Fair enough if one is ill or performing full time care for sick, but wehat about the terminally lazy.
Anyway that is an argument for another day.

frankosw wrote: »

Where exactly do the Public Sector spend thier wages?

Pubs,shops,hotels,restuarants...the private sector generally..do you think that by taking money out of people's pockets(again) they will still spend the same money on luxuries and staples alike as they did before?

Is taking money from th economy going to stimulate spending within the economy?

Can we cut our way out a recession?

Course not..its beyond foolish to think so.

Except the problem is you are asking the barman, waiter and shop assistant to probably pay more tax, have even less chance of a measly pension and suffer more service cuts, because the public servant coming in their door gets to keep their bigger salary, their better pension, their better holidays/sick leave and get increments just for time servered.

frankosw

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Of course somebody will buy our bonds to continue to let PS's live in the livestyle they are accustomed to and to continue to pay an average wage of 49K that is 50% higher that the average private sector wage.

This has been disproven time and time again.

Averages mean nothing in this context.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The reality is that the only way we can get the economy moving is for the private sector to have costs low enough so that we can export products that will increase our wealth that will then drive the economy.

Ah yes..i remember the last time the private sector drove the economy..they got greedy beyond belief and created a construction and property bubble that left every man,woman and child on this island to pick up the peices.


Of course that has all been forgotten about now and the PS are being singled out as the cause of it all whilst certain people are now looking to multinationals to come to our aid despite thier track record.

Recovery isnt just about money..its about stability and confidence and a country riddled with industrial and civil unrest is no use to anybody.

Idbatterim

More crap and nonsense..i notice you didnt mention social welfare...why's that then?

totally agree with this! Welfare should be number 1 on the agenda AFAIC!

we have the highest marginal tax rate in Europe I believe, taking 52c out of every euro is immoral in my opinion. I think taking even that amount of money of high earners i.e minimum 100k would be taking the piss!

Well thier usual answer is to ramp up prices.

I noticed Spar have added 10c to the price of a coffee,Dakota Bar is charging 8 euro for a gin and tonic,Grehound have taken over waste collection and put thier prices up and MBNA credit cards have increased thier APR by 14%.

Is this in response to the "public servants" wanting to keep thier salaries or is it private sector greed?

vote with your feet! also a large part of the reason for cost increases are usually government related, they never seem to go down, only up up and up...

frankosw

jmayo wrote: »

Except the problem is you are asking the barman, waiter and shop assistant to probably pay more tax, have even less chance of a measly pension and suffer more service cuts, because the public servant coming in their door gets to keep their bigger salary, their better pension, their better holidays/sick leave and get increments just for time servered.

Well thier usual answer is to ramp up prices.

A friend of mine was quoted 350 euro for a Family Home Declaration from a dublin solicitor..she got it printed for zero and 10 euro for the signature.

I was recently quoted 270 euro for a remote for a car alarm because they had to "reprogramme it in louth"

I noticed Spar have added 10c to the price of a coffee,Dakota Bar is charging 8 euro for a gin and tonic,Grehound have taken over waste collection and put thier prices up and MBNA credit cards have increased thier APR by 14%.

Is this in response to the "public servants" wanting to keep thier salaries or is it private sector greed?

jmayo

frankosw wrote: »

...
Ah yes..i remember the last time the private sector drove the economy..they got greedy beyond belief and created a construction and property bubble that left every man,woman and child on this island to pick up the peices.

In case it has slipped your mind, the banks were supposedly being monitored by public servants in public bodies like Central Bank, IFSRA and Dept of Finance.

The increase in public sector spending, mainly wages and numbers, was demanded by public sector unions and public sector employees.

And I would bet a sizable proportion of public sector employees voted for the party that was in power.

Claiming the mess the economy is in has absolutely nothing to do with the public sector is like claiming all the fault for the bank collapses lies with just a couple of bankers and not the entire banking system.
The public sector played a part in creating this economic mess, it might not be the individuals at the lower end, nor it might not have been the primary player but it still played a part.

frankosw wrote: »

Of course that has all been forgotten about now and the PS are being singled out as the cause of it all whilst certain people are now looking to multinationals to come to our aid despite thier track record.

The public sector, together with our lavish social welfasre system, are a big cause of our massive current budget deficit and the fact we can no longer afford to keep the status quo is why people are singling out the public service.

frankosw wrote: »

Recovery isnt just about money..its about stability and confidence and a country riddled with industrial and civil unrest is no use to anybody.

Neither is a country where we are over paying, money we do not have, a certain category of employee at the expense of everyone else.

frankosw

jmayo wrote: »

The public sector, together with our lavish social welfasre system, are a big cause of our massive current budget deficit and the fact we can no longer afford to keep the status quo is why people are singling out the public service.
.

At the same time they will draw on public services when it suits them and demand better service for less outlay..teh sort of people who wouldnt be able to work in teh PS themselves yet begrudge people a day's pay.

I think the people who fancy themselves as economists need to look elsewhere for the cause of this problem..social welfare,asylum seekers,overseas aid,rent allowance,NAMA,teh bank gurantee and the millions upon millions paid to private law firms to go through the motions of telling us whats wrong with the country.

Farmer Pudsey

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

an average wage of 49K that is 50% higher that the average private sector wage.

frankosw wrote: »

This has been disproven time and time again.

Averages mean nothing in this context.
.

First of all it has not been disproven if you check the CSO data wheather you use hourly or weekly pay they are the stats. The CSO may even have balanced teachers hours to reflect there short hourly weeks and No of weeks.
http://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Stat...08&PLanguage=0

frankosw wrote: »

Well thier usual answer is to ramp up prices.

A friend of mine was quoted 350 euro for a Family Home Declaration from a dublin solicitor..she got it printed for zero and 10 euro for the signature.

I was recently quoted 270 euro for a remote for a car alarm because they had to "reprogramme it in louth"

I noticed Spar have added 10c to the price of a coffee,Dakota Bar is charging 8 euro for a gin and tonic,Grehound have taken over waste collection and put thier prices up and MBNA credit cards have increased thier APR by 14%.

Is this in response to the "public servants" wanting to keep thier salaries or is it private sector greed?

You do what everyone of us try to do when quotes crazy prices it is not just PS that are quoted crazy prices you shop around and buy it cheaper elsewhere wheather on line or off another retailer.

I had the same issue with a remote key was quoted 200 for one got the remote and a spare key for 200 not happy but you bargin it the nature of the beast.

leonidas83

frankosw wrote: »

At the same time they will draw on public services when it suits them and demand better service for less outlay..teh sort of people who wouldnt be able to work in teh PS themselves yet begrudge people a day's pay.

I think the people who fancy themselves as economists need to look elsewhere for the cause of this problem..social welfare,asylum seekers,overseas aid,rent allowance,NAMA,teh bank gurantee and the millions upon millions paid to private law firms to go through the motions of telling us whats wrong with the country.

Yes lets look at everything but leave out one of the biggest expenses of all. Lets go after the vulnerable & needy in our society so we can protect our bloated public sector & their high wages. The greed our so called public service show in protecting their own interests over the common good of the country never ceases to disgust me.

The good thing is there isnt a chance its going to last. I for one hope the IMF take more control of our finances (sooner rather than later) & take an axe to that agreement & public sector pay. And if ye dont like it, there's flights out of this country everyday to anywhere in the world. Don't let the door hit ye on the way out