Not baptising your child - what are the practical disadvantages in Ireland?

kylith

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'Hey kid, remember all that stuff you have been taught for the last 13 years about your soul and there being only one God and if you don't believe in that God you will spend eternity in the torment of hell?' Well, we were lying'.

Sounds like a plan....

True. This 'sure you might as well go along with it even if you don't believe it' lark is why those of us who don't want anything to do with it are having such a hard time in schools. Nothing will ever change while people just go along with it.

Bannasidhe

joydivision wrote: »

Hey sun remember repunzel . Itd be a white lie . Its not as if they will get religious teachings from me .
Maybe if my son was autistic or something like the fella from fair city that couldnt understand a little lie but im sure they wont be too bothered by it . I used to think wrestling waas real too .

Yes, because Repunzel believers use the fact that a large percentage of the population have had fairy dust sprinkled on their foreheads while babies to influence civil legislation and to insist that the State gives their ethos preference thereby ensuring that all citizens abide by their rules.

Shankly88

It really gets on my nerves this whole catholic bashing that seems to be the new thing. If your atheist or whatever else so be it your choice. But don't tell me or anyone else we are wrong or sheep or un educated because we are catholic (my son is baptised by the way). I could pick holes In everyone's religion but I don't. Ps how many of you got married in a fancy church for show or plan to? But then dis the church in general itself well I know plenty. Hypocrites

Shankly88

Shankly88 wrote: »

It really gets on my nerves this whole catholic bashing that seems to be the new thing. If your atheist or whatever else so be it your choice. But don't tell me or anyone else we are wrong or sheep or un educated because we are catholic (my son is baptised by the way). I could pick holes In everyone's religion but I don't. Ps how many of you got married in a fancy church for show or plan to? But then dis the church in general itself well I know plenty. Hypocrites

It gets on my nerves when people wander into a forum dedicated to one topic and whinge about that topic.
Nobody tracked you down and said HEY SHANKLY, YOU'RE WRONG AND I'M GOING TO STAND HERE AND POKE YOU AND TELL YOU YOU'RE WRONG.
You came in here and decided to be offended all by yourself.

ronan45

Is the Childs name Damien per chance?:eek:

kylith

Shankly88 wrote: »

It really gets on my nerves this whole catholic bashing that seems to be the new thing. If your atheist or whatever else so be it your choice. But don't tell me or anyone else we are wrong or sheep or un educated because we are catholic (my son is baptised by the way). I could pick holes In everyone's religion but I don't. Ps how many of you got married in a fancy church for show or plan to? But then dis the church in general itself well I know plenty. Hypocrites

No atheist that I know has gotten married in a church.

How many 'Catholics' have only been inside a church for their baptism, communion, confirmation, and wedding? Quite a few, in fact I'd wager that the 'occasion' Catholics vastly outnumber those who are in there every Sunday.

Bannasidhe

Shankly88 wrote: »

It really gets on my nerves this whole catholic bashing that seems to be the new thing. If your atheist or whatever else so be it your choice. But don't tell me or anyone else we are wrong or sheep or un educated because we are catholic (my son is baptised by the way). I could pick holes In everyone's religion but I don't. Ps how many of you got married in a fancy church for show or plan to? But then dis the church in general itself well I know plenty. Hypocrites

If the Catholic church leaves me alone I will leave the Catholic church alone.

Nope- no church wedding for me. Even if I wanted one. I wouldn't be allowed.

In fact - according to the Pope if I was allowed to marry my OH it would be a threat to Humanity.

Good luck picking holes in my 'religion' - I don't have one.

endacl

Shankly88 wrote: »

It really gets on my nerves this whole catholic bashing that seems to be the new thing. If your atheist or whatever else so be it your choice. But don't tell me or anyone else we are wrong or sheep or un educated because we are catholic (my son is baptised by the way). I could pick holes In everyone's religion but I don't. Ps how many of you got married in a fancy church for show or plan to? But then dis the church in general itself well I know plenty. Hypocrites

Its not new. I've been at it since I was about 12/13.
It not a choice. Its a direct consequence of critical thinking.
I don't tell you its wrong for you. But I'm happy to say it in itself wrong in principle. Your choices are your business. As is your insecure response to the topic. Are you really that sure of your beliefs?

Not married by the way, but if I ever do it won't be in a church. Impossible to get the stains out of the photos.

Shankly88

bluewolf wrote: »

It gets on my nerves when people wander into a forum dedicated to one topic and whinge about that topic.
Nobody tracked you down and said HEY SHANKLY, YOU'RE WRONG AND I'M GOING TO STAND HERE AND POKE YOU AND TELL YOU YOU'RE WRONG.
You came in here and decided to be offended all by yourself.

Ye because everyone has stuck to the op get a grip. I'm not whining about the topic either it's a valid topic. I'm whining about people who think They are great and smart dissing everyone that is religious

Bannasidhe

Shankly88 wrote: »

Ye because everyone has stuck to the op get a grip. I'm not whining about the topic either it's a valid topic. I'm whining about people who think They are great and smart dissing everyone that is religious

You storm in here and complain about people saying a child should not be inducted into a religion 'just because...'
Seems to me the people here take religion far more seriously then the 'just because, sure what harm like...' brigade.

Saying one should be a member of a religion only if one truly believes in that religion = dissing religion. Wow, that is some logic.

eyescreamcone

Shankly88 wrote: »

It really gets on my nerves this whole catholic bashing that seems to be the new thing. If your atheist or whatever else so be it your choice. But don't tell me or anyone else we are wrong or sheep or un educated because we are catholic (my son is baptised by the way). I could pick holes In everyone's religion but I don't. Ps how many of you got married in a fancy church for show or plan to? But then dis the church in general itself well I know plenty. Hypocrites

If you are a Catholic and agree with all the "not coveting your neighbours stuff", "Thou shalt not ****" etc, then go for it, and best of luck to you (just don't bother me or mine with it please).

But if you are Catholic lite (contraception, pre marital sex, never go to mass, abortion in certain cases, divorce maybe etc etc) but insist on a church wedding and baptising the kids, then to me you ARE a sheep.

As for any non believer who goes along with the Catholic stuff even if it's just to please parents - you also are a sheep ...and a hypocrite.

robindch

Shankly88 wrote: »

But don't tell me or anyone else we are wrong or sheep or un educated because we are catholic [...]

I don't think anybody's called you "un educated" because you're catholic.

But it is quite reasonable to call you wrong if you're catholic, if catholicism itself is wrong and -- given the forum you're in -- most people here do believe that.

joydivision

I dont think people are atheist in here . I think they are anti catholic . Lets bash judaeism for a while.
Atheism is about not believing not worrying about what other people believe .
A splash of water on the head means nothing and saves the kids alot of hassle isolation.
Its not like your circumsizing them.
Are people afraid this "sky fairy" will get powers over the children if their heads get wet?
In primary school a chinese fella in my class had to sit in the library and read a book when we did religion . We didnt think how cool hes not a sheep . We thought how odd him and his parents were .
Kids can be cruel . Maybe parents should let their children choose to be different when they are old enough to do so instead of choosing for them ?
Just a thought .

lazygal

Maybe people shouldn't be gay or wear glasses or get braces in case they slagged too.

joydivision

lazygal wrote: »

Maybe people shouldn't be gay or wear glasses or get braces in case they slagged too.

Thats not the same thing . Itd be like putting lipstick on your son each school morning because sure why not its perfectly acceptable .

endacl

joydivision wrote: »

I dont think people are atheist in here . I think they are anti catholic . Lets bash judaeism for a while.
Atheism is about not believing not worrying about what other people believe .
A splash of water on the head means nothing and saves the kids alot of hassle isolation.
Its not like your circumsizing them.
Are people afraid this "sky fairy" will get powers over the children if their heads get wet?
In primary school a chinese fella in my class had to sit in the library and read a book when we did religion . We didnt think how cool hes not a sheep . We thought how odd him and his parents were .
Kids can be cruel . Maybe parents should let their children choose to be different when they are old enough to do so instead of choosing for them ?
Just a thought .

Actually several thoughts....
Athiesm and anti-catholicism can be mutually exclusive. They may tend not to be on an Irish discussion board. Do I really need to explain why?

Happy to 'bash' Judaeism. The second I live in a country/society in which Judaeism impacts laws and access to services.

You and your group excluded the Chinese child. Children do this. If everybody's parents were more honest regarding the sham of Irish catholicism, maybe that group wouldn't have been so large? Your final point 'Maybe parents...' actually supports this.

joydivision

joydivision wrote: »

Maybe parents should let their children choose to be different when they are old enough to do so instead of choosing for them ?
Just a thought .

That's exactly what we're trying to say. Leave them alone and let them baptise themselves when they're older if they want to.
Glad to see you finally agree.

robindch

joydivision wrote: »

Just a thought .

You're basically saying that we should let an unelected, corrupt, undemocratic and apparently largely senile and foreign-controlled gerontocracy do what they want?

That hasn't really worked all that well in the past, now has it?

joydivision

bluewolf wrote: »

That's exactly what we're trying to say. Leave them alone and let them baptise themselves when they're older if they want to.
Glad to see you finally agree.

You dont seem to get it . I was baptised and ended up a non believer . The splash of water did nothing .
The chinese by got no water on the head . Had a rough few years in school and is probably some odd ball now because of it.

lazygal

joydivision wrote: »

You dont seem to get it . I was baptised and ended up a non believer . The splash of water did nothing .
The chinese by got no water on the head . Had a rough few years in school and is probably some odd ball now because of it.

Wow. You and your school mates sound lovely.

Bannasidhe

joydivision wrote: »

I dont think people are atheist in here . I think they are anti catholic . Lets bash judaeism for a while.
Atheism is about not believing not worrying about what other people believe .
A splash of water on the head means nothing and saves the kids alot of hassle isolation.
Its not like your circumsizing them.
Are people afraid this "sky fairy" will get powers over the children if their heads get wet?
In primary school a chinese fella in my class had to sit in the library and read a book when we did religion . We didnt think how cool hes not a sheep . We thought how odd him and his parents were .
Kids can be cruel . Maybe parents should let their children choose to be different when they are old enough to do so instead of choosing for them ?
Just a thought .

Well I haven't seen much evidence of loving thy neighbour or those without sin casting the first stone or even turning the other cheek over in the Christianity forum so I guess none of them are Christians...

As for 'Atheism is about not believing not worrying about what other people believe' - which dictionary is that from?

Atheism means lack of belief in the existence of God. That's it. Nothing else. Just that there is no God...or Gods....

joydivision

lazygal wrote: »

Wow. You and your school mates sound lovely.

It was 25 years ago and we were children . I wasnt anyway bad towards him but i never stuck up for him . I came from a very rough area where half the children were sons and daughters of alcoholics and drug addicts and bullies . You couldnt really blame these kids for acting like they seen grown adults act .

joydivision

robindch wrote: »

You're basically saying that we should let an unelected, corrupt, undemocratic and apparently largely senile and foreign-controlled gerontocracy do what they want?

That hasn't really worked all that well in the past, now has it?

Absolutely not . Im saying give them nothing let the kids play dress up if they want .

joydivision

joydivision wrote: »

You couldnt really blame these kids for acting like they seen grown adults act .

So it's ok to lie and be a hypocrite to your kids and insist on social conformity at any costs, then you know they'll act that way when they grow up.

eyescreamcone

joydivision wrote: »

I dont think people are atheist in here . I think they are anti catholic . Lets bash judaeism for a while.
Atheism is about not believing not worrying about what other people believe .
A splash of water on the head means nothing and saves the kids alot of hassle isolation.
Its not like your circumsizing them.
Are people afraid this "sky fairy" will get powers over the children if their heads get wet?
In primary school a chinese fella in my class had to sit in the library and read a book when we did religion . We didnt think how cool hes not a sheep . We thought how odd him and his parents were .
Kids can be cruel . Maybe parents should let their children choose to be different when they are old enough to do so instead of choosing for them ?
Just a thought .

Go with the flow if you like. That's your option!

But I don't want my family to have anything to do with the RCC - mainly because I believe them to be
Anti - women
Anti - gay
Anti - health (condoms)
Anti - abortion in all cases
Anti - divorce in all cases (except their own anullments)
Severe child abusers worldwide (and subsequent cover ups)

...among other things, like asking us to help the poor, while living in palaces themselves.
Not to mention the biggie...belief in supernatural beings, (still without evidence).

To me it's NOT only a drop of water.
By baptising my children I'm saying I'm ok with all the above and worse still, I want my children to be a part of that gang.

When my children are of an age I deem suitable to understand how evil religions can be, I'll explain this to them and let them investigate it further themselves.
They can then make an informed decision for themselves on whether they wish to join one religion or none.
But, I hope their decision will be based on facts and information rather than superstition and a "shur what harm will it do?" attitude.

kylith

joydivision wrote: »

I dont think people are atheist in here . I think they are anti catholic.

I'm anti-Catholic in that I want to remove the Catholic church from positions of authority in schools and hospitals, and to remove their 'special place' in the constitution. Frankly if people want to be Catholic it's up to them, just leave me and mine out of it.

joydivision wrote: »

Lets bash judaeism for a while.

OK. What a bunch of weirdos the Jews are, with their mad sideburns and their 'no sausages'. Mad, I tell ya :rolleyes:

joydivision wrote: »

A splash of water on the head means nothing and saves the kids alot of hassle isolation.

It doesn't mean nothing. It means that you agree to raise your child by all the laws and rules of the Church. If you get your child baptised and don't intend to raise them according to the teachings of the Church then you're a liar, a sheep, a heretic, and a hypocrite.

joydivision wrote: »

Its not like your circumsizing them.

As far as the RCC is concerned it's the same thing. Baptism is a lifelong, binding, contract with the RCC.

joydivision wrote: »

In primary school a chinese fella in my class had to sit in the library and read a book when we did religion . We didnt think how cool hes not a sheep . We thought how odd him and his parents were .

Really? We thought 'bloody lucky Buddhists and Protestants; get to do their homework instead of having to pretend to pay attention to whatever this old biddy is wittering on about'. We were terribly jealous.

joydivision wrote: »

Kids can be cruel . Maybe parents should let their children choose to be different when they are old enough to do so instead of choosing for them ?
Just a thought .

Maybe parents should teach their children that it's not right to be cruel to other because they don't share your beliefs. Just a thought.

skyfall2012

Haven't read all replies because I have to get back to work. But, we decided not to baptise our children who are now 7 and 5 and they are attending a Catholic school. Reason: The Murphy Report! We can't close down this organisation as individuals, but we are turning our back on them. I like the fact that my children are getting a religious message at school as it is a good one and we all need something. Children asked huge philosophical questions at such young age and I feel they need answers. I tried reading 'Sophie's World' to my kids to help them understand why people need to believe in something we cannot see or touch, but it really is for teenagers. I think there is a gap in the market for a philosophical book for kids. I tried looking in library but couldn't find anything. Next year is communion year for my daughter's class and we are planning a big day for her, but it won't be the same, because it will not be with her friends. The Church has hijacked societies coming of age ceremonies, this makes it very hard to turn your back on them. Good luck with your decision.

robindch

joydivision wrote: »

Im saying give them nothing let the kids play dress up if they want .

Again, it's not something I'd be happy having priests involved with.

joydivision

bluewolf wrote: »

So it's ok to lie and be a hypocrite to your kids and insist on social conformity at any costs, then you know they'll act that way when they grow up.

Worked ok for me . Chinese kid not so good .

Dades

joydivision wrote: »

You dont seem to get it . I was baptised and ended up a non believer . The splash of water did nothing .

Why do people have this insular mentality that because they don't give a crap about something that people who do are wrong?

The people who post in this forum are a mix of all flavours of non-religion and attitude toward the RCC. The OP I suspect appreciates the varied replies they got, and, like me, less so your later inputs.

You've made you point, make a different one, or move on.

Bannasidhe

joydivision wrote: »

Worked ok for me . Chinese kid not so good .

And is that ok?


So extend that thought - Catholic control of education good for Catholics. Not so good for Non Catholics.

Catholic interference in the Civil State - not so good for anyone who wants to use contraception, get divorced, terminate a pregnancy even to save the life of the mother, marry their same sex partner or even think for themselves.

joydivision

Dades wrote: »

Why do people have this insular mentality that because they don't give a crap about something that people who do are wrong?

The people who post in this forum are a mix of all flavours of non-religion and attitude toward the RCC. The OP I suspect appreciates the varied replies they got, and, like me, less so your later inputs.

You've made you point, make a different one, or move on.

Can i just make the point that agreeing to be binded by the laws of a fairytale kingdom does not bind me too them for life . Im a lifelong member of the koolkat fanclub too .
I shall be removing myself from these threads Its not atheist its the run from god forum .
Do you agree to believe in the sky fairy ?
Sure dude . Just splash the water .

Is lying to a priest sending me to hell ?

Do you agree to reject the hell fairy ?

Ye man hes bold . Give the boy some bread .

Thats all the religion my kids will get .

Itd be great to live in a world where all children are thought to accept everyones differences . But we dont even live in a world where all adults accept everyones differences . And they arnt gonna teach their kids this .

A bit of street smarts will tell ye what the answer is here . Maybe you people sshould waste your energy teaching parents to teach their kids this lesson instead of trying to fight the catholic church putting a splash of wa ter on the kids head .
Its the kids thatll feel the brunt of your posturing not you .

Again Ill say I have absolutely no interest in a "god".

Pick your battles wisely dudes later .

Bannasidhe

joydivision wrote: »

Can i just make the point that agreeing to be binded by the laws of a fairytale kingdom does not bind me too them for life . Im a lifelong member of the koolkat fanclub too .
I shall be removing myself from these threads Its not atheist its the run from god forum .
Do you agree to believe in the sky fairy ?
Sure dude . Just splash the water .

Is lying to a priest sending me to hell ?

Do you agree to reject the hell fairy ?

Ye man hes bold . Give the boy some bread .

Thats all the religion my kids will get .

Itd be great to live in a world where all children are thought to accept everyones differences . But we dont even live in a world where all adults accept everyones differences . And they arnt gonna teach their kids this .

A bit of street smarts will tell ye what the answer is here . Maybe you people sshould waste your energy teaching parents to teach their kids this lesson instead of trying to fight the catholic church putting a splash of wa ter on the kids head .
Its the kids thatll feel the brunt of your posturing not you .

Again Ill say I have absolutely no interest in a "god".

Pick your battles wisely dudes later .

10 years living in London's East End taught me lots of street smarts dude.
The main one being if you let the bullies win - you lose.

joydivision

You just dont get it . Let me know how the kids get on .

Bannasidhe

joydivision wrote: »

You just dont get it . Let me know how the kids get on .

My unbaptised son is 28. He's doing great thanks for asking. Got a good job, 2 lovely kids. He is well educated and not a hypocrite.

I'm actually rather proud of him even if my nickname for him is 'fecking eejit'.

robindch

joydivision wrote: »

Can i just make the point that agreeing to be binded by the laws of a fairytale kingdom does not bind me too them for life.

You're aware that the Catholic church disagrees with you about that which is why the countmeout service had to be discontinued?

And have you met any people -- like I have and do -- who were so scarred by their religious fundamentalism that they appear to have a mental illness?

T-K-O

eyescreamcone wrote: »

You and your sheeplike attitude is why it's so hard to change anything here.
Make sure to tell your kids how brave you were in standing up for what is right.

Stop being an idiot. Why deprive your child of going to certain schools and taking part in certain days growing up.

My child will make up its own mind - Just like I did. So you being brave is pushing your own beliefs onto a child. That's brilliant , well done

joydivision

robindch wrote: »

You're aware that the Catholic church disagrees with you about that which is why the countmeout service had to be discontinued?

And have you met any people -- like I have and do -- who were so scarred by their religious fundamentalism that they appear to have a mental illness?

I dont care if the church agrees with me or not . Just like I dont care if barney the dinosaur agrees with me .

Bannasidhe

T-K-O wrote: »

Stop being an idiot. Why deprive your child of going to certain schools and taking part in certain days growing up.

My child will make up its own mind - Just like I did. So you being brave is pushing your own beliefs onto a child. That's brilliant , well done

Seriously - think about what you have just said.

Clue:

Inducting a child into a religion is pushing your own beliefs onto a child

.

T-K-O

kylith wrote: »

In fairness you close more doors by baptising them than by not. If they grow up to disagree with the teachings of the Catholic church that's tough luck, because they can never leave it. If you don't baptise them then they can make their own decision on which religion, or none, that they would like to join when they are old enough to make that choice for themselves. Baptism into RCC = choice of Catholicism only. No baptism = choice of any religion on the planet, or none.

That's a good point but we live in a catholic country. Personally I am not religious at all but if my wife wanted to baptise our child I would do it.

The church can say what they like, yes I was baptised but I choose not to be a member. You say you cant leave the Catholic church but many of use have. Who gives a dam what they say.

T-K-O

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Seriously - think about what you have just said.

Clue:

Inducting a child into a religion is pushing your own beliefs onto a child

.

Fair enough. But like I said I would not do something now that would prevent my child form attending certain schools.

The system is in place and needs to be manipulated. Would I like to see change, of course. However it's a non issue for me. The church (In Ireland) is slowly dying anyway.

Bannasidhe

T-K-O wrote: »

That's a good point but we live in a catholic country. Personally I am not religious at all but if my wife wanted to baptise our child I would do it.

The church can say what they like, yes I was baptised but I choose not to be a member. You say you cant leave the Catholic church but many of use have. Who gives a dam what they say.

No we live in a country where the Catholic church is allowed to dictate what the civil rights of even non-Catholic citizens are.

This is not a Catholic country - the Constitution is quite clear on this point. It is a country where the majority claim to be Catholic- there is a world of difference.

France is also a 'Catholic' country if one is judging such things by majority percentage of the population - it has complete separation of the Church and State.

The only true Catholic country is the Vatican. I don't live there.

Bannasidhe

T-K-O wrote: »

Fair enough. But like I said I would not do something now that would prevent my child form attending certain schools.

The system is in place and needs to be manipulated. Would I like to see change, of course. However it's a non issue for me. The church (In Ireland) is slowly dying anyway.

As long as people go with the flow nothing will change.

Your children will be having the same discussion, and their children...

T-K-O

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No we live in a country where the Catholic church is allowed to dictate what the civil rights of even non-Catholic citizens are.

This is not a Catholic country - the Constitution is quite clear on this point. It is a country where the majority claim to be Catholic- there is a world of difference.

France is also a 'Catholic' country if one is judging such things by majority percentage of the population - it has complete separation of the Church and State.

The only true Catholic country is the Vatican. I don't live there.

If your parents are Irish ask them what it was like for them growing up and if they would say Ireland is a Catholic country. Think of the control and input the church once had and compare it to now.

I do not believe this will be same issue for our children. We have more Atheists and Agnostics then ever before. It will be a completely changed situation for our children.

As for the crusade, well I will leave that up to MR Dawkins

Bannasidhe

T-K-O wrote: »

If your parents are Irish ask them what it was like for them growing up and if they would say Ireland is a Catholic country. Think of the control and input the church once had and compare it to now.

I do not believe this will be same issue for our children. We have more Atheists and Agnostics then ever before. It will be a completely changed situation for our children.

As for the crusade, well I will leave that up to MR Dawkins

My parent's are divorced.
My mother is firmly pro-choice.
My grandmother was firmly pro-choice.
My great-grandfather was COI.

All of them believed in separation of church and State.

I am old enough to remember the absolute control the RCC exercised in Ireland - it is changing because people like me are refusing to accept it, not because people like you are kicking the can down the road.

T-K-O

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My parent's are divorced.
My mother is firmly pro-choice.
My grandmother was firmly pro-choice.
My great-grandfather was COI.

All of them believed in separation of church and State.

I am old enough to remember the absolute control the RCC exercised in Ireland - it is changing because people like me are refusing to accept it, not because people like you are kicking the can down the road.

As do I.

My love for the church would equal my love for the banks but I will use both to my advantage.

endacl

T-K-O wrote: »

As do I.

My love for the church would equal my love for the banks but I will use both to my advantage.

Delivered in my best 'this is why the country is in the state its in' voice: Ah sure that's OK then.

BraveInca

joydivision wrote: »

You dont seem to get it . I was baptised and ended up a non believer . The splash of water did nothing .
The chinese by got no water on the head . Had a rough few years in school and is probably some odd ball now because of it.

In your opinion the actions of the school, and the children in it, caused actual harm to that poor child - yet you are cheerfully defending (and perpetuating) the status quo that allowed that to happen?

joydivision

Bannasidhe wrote: »

My parent's are divorced.
My mother is firmly pro-choice.
My grandmother was firmly pro-choice.
My great-grandfather was COI.

All of them believed in separation of church and State.

I am old enough to remember the absolute control the RCC exercised in Ireland - it is changing because people like me are refusing to accept it, not because people like you are kicking the can down the road.

Nope its changing because nobodies afraid of the priests anymore . Nobody cares for the church . Nobody goes . Not because you didnt baptise your kids .

T-K-O

endacl wrote: »

Delivered in my best 'this is why the country is in the state its in' voice: Ah sure that's OK then.

Who said its OK. :rolleyes:

I will not loose sleep over the church, wondering if they will allow me to leave.

The OP asked a practical question and I believe I have answered with a practical thought process