Top Hamas Military leader killed - Israel/Hamas on the brink of War??

wicklowdub

@storyfulpro

Its all kicking off again

wes

Jonny7 wrote: »

If it's true, then the US military, as a policy, as a doctrine, is specifically murdering rescue workers.

It doesn't wash, that doesn't make any military sense.

The accusation is that there engaged in a double tap attack, under the assumption that anyone going to help is a terrorist.

The stuff on who they consider a terrorist alone, is enough to make them as bad as the other guy. They just assume that anyone under a overly broad criteria is a target, and hence why you have dead rescue workers, and dead funeral goes etc.

Again, they call everyone a terrorist, as long as they fit a broad criteria as detailed in the New York times. Now in Pakistan, the rescue workers would in the vast majority fit that criteria. So the US knowingly via there double tap attacks (something they call terrorism), are killing civilians, except they have decided that the civilians are all militants until proven otherwise.

Nodin

Siuin wrote: »

A better relationship with Israel, higher esteem among the international community, a vast degree of authority over the West Bank.

.

They have whatever authority israel lets them have, which is the same as before.There is no palestinian state, they are still being colonised, yesterday Israel threatened to "overthrow" them if they went for status at the UN....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20322405

I'm not exactly seeing a peace dividend there.

Eggy Baby!

I expect sweet fúck all from Hamas because they're a terrorist organisation and they wouldn't understand compromise or peaceful protest if it slapped them across the face. This isn't about the US or attaining rights, it's about a bunch of terrorists who wish to annihilate Israel-- a fact they've made very clear in their official government charter.

Firstly, I have forgotten, so would you kindly remind me how Israel "peacefully protested" or "compromised" during Operation Cast Lead: remind me how they dropped doves, unicorns and gummy bears on Gaza.

Secondly, Palestine is recognised by the majority of nations in the UN. So your idea that their government are just a "bunch of terrorists" is hogwash.

Thirdly, Hamas have compromised on occasion, such as when they announce ceasefires.

Lastly, off-topic a bit but its interesting to note that today is the anniversary of Yasser Arafat proclaiming the state of Palestine back in 1988.

Jonny7

wes wrote: »

The accusation is that there engaged in a double tap attack, under the assumption that anyone going to help is a terrorist.

The stuff on who they consider a terrorist alone, is enough to make them as bad as the other guy. They just assume that anyone under a overly broad criteria is a target, and hence why you have dead rescue workers, and dead funeral goes etc.

Again, they call everyone a terrorist, as long as they fit a broad criteria as detailed in the New York times. Now in Pakistan, the rescue workers would in the vast majority fit that criteria. So the US knowingly via there double tap attacks (something they call terrorism), are killing civilians, except they have decided that the civilians are all militants until proven otherwise.

This is an interpretation. The US doesn't go "out of it's way" to kill rescuers or civilians. That doesn't make any sense as policy or doctrine. However, I'm open to anything, we'll should get some proper information and hopefully some truth in the UN investigation.

Until then we are going to keep getting hugely conflicting information on this drone war because it ignites so many emotions. No mother is going to call her dead son a militant. Pakistani officials have sympathies for one side or the other and report accordingly. The US is no stranger to propaganda when it suits an agenda.

However in this case, I very strongly doubt the US is hitting a target a second time in order to cause more innocent casualties. I will totally stand corrected on that should it turn out to be true.

wes

Jonny7 wrote: »

However in this case, I very strongly doubt the US is hitting a target a second time in order to cause more innocent casualties. I will totally stand corrected on that should it turn out to be true.

They don't consider them innocent, that is what I am saying. Basically, there militants until proven otherwise, that is what the problem is. When, you consider everyone a militant until proven otherwise, you will of course hit people who aren't militants.

MisterEpicurus

Eggy Baby! wrote: »

Firstly, I have forgotten, so would you kindly remind me how Israel "peacefully protested" or "compromised" during Operation Cast Lead: remind me how they dropped doves, unicorns and gummy bears on Gaza.

Secondly, Palestine is recognised by the majority of nations in the UN. So your idea that their government are just a "bunch of terrorists" is hogwash.

Thirdly, Hamas have compromised on occasion, such as when they announce ceasefires.

Lastly, off-topic a bit but its interesting to note that today is the anniversary of Yasser Arafat proclaiming the state of Palestine back in 1988.

The OP also rightfully referred to the government charter of Hamas which you appeared to have ignored.

Here's some direct quotes:

Article 28
"Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."

Whatever we agree about Israel, and it too may meet certain criteria under acts of terrorism, we should at least agree that only anti-semitic terrorist scum would make comments such as this. Irrespective whether or not they were voted in makes little difference to the facts outlined in their charter.

So I think the OP was right in his judgement and you should acknowledge it as such.

wes

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

The OP also rightfully referred to the government charter of Hamas which you appeared to have ignored.

Here's some direct quotes:

Article 28
"Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims. “Let the eyes of the cowards not fall asleep.”

"Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors."

Whatever we agree about Israel, and it too may meet certain criteria under acts of terrorism, we should at least agree that only anti-semitic terrorist scum would make comments such as this. Irrespective whether or not they were voted in makes little difference to the facts outlined in their charter.

So I think the OP was right in his judgement and you should acknowledge it as such.

Again, they have a few newer document dating from 2006:

Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

The document your refer from dates from 1988. So unless they released a new document backing out of there previous statement, then I think it fair to say your claim is out of date

RobitTV

Things appear to be heating up Tel aviv's alarms were sounded for the first time in 21 years since the gulf war!

Chuck Stone

Einhard wrote: »

So, let me get this straight. When Israel targets a rocket launch site and kills civilians because the site is deliberately located in a civilian area, the militants who placed it there bear no responsibilty? Come off it. That's taking abdication of responsibility to an absurd level. Why not just come out and state that israel is always to blame. For everything. It'd be easier.

Did you see how they were able to target the Hamas guy in the middle of a busy street? Do you think Hamas get children to play ring-a-ring-o-roses around the launch sites?

No...it's not. Hamas and others deliberately target civilians, just as the IRA did. There's a massive difference between that and US and Israeli strikes against militants. It's odd that you can't seem to see that.

Oh FFS here you go again with your neat little packages and bed-time fairy tales. I was wondering when someone would bring up the IRA. You'll note that 50% of the British Army's killings were civilians (leaving aside collusion with loyalist death gangs) compared to 35% for the IRA; so what was it you were saying about deliberately targeting civilians and terrorism?

What exactly do you propose they do. In Pakistan, there are people quite openly planning terror attacks on American soil, and against American interests worldwide. They plan massacres against people like you and me and their fellow Muslims. They revel in death and destruction, and care not for who gets caught in the onslaught. Witness 9/11.

For US Army Col. Larry Wilkerson (Former Chief of Staff to Colin Powell, Visiting professor at the College of William & Mary, teaching courses on U.S. national security) estimates that in the year 2000 there was in the region of 300 to 500 people in the world with the desire and support/capacity to inflict damage on the US/West; recently Wilkerson estimates that there are now 50,000.

Again. Your 'good guys and bad guys' analysis is, frankly, blinkered and lazy.

Try harder.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

I'd like to remind posters that this thread is about the Gaza situation, not the US in Pakistan. Please stay on topic.

dlofnep

Israel must really resent democracy if they are threatening to overthrow Abbas for pursuing UN recognition.

Jaafa

JustinDee wrote: »

Read it yourself on Ma'an. I'm on a phone, not a laptop right now.

I found little to support your claim, perhaps when you are on a laptop you can provide me with the specific sources.

Until then I'll provide you with more statistics which again show that this round of violence began as a result of Israeli attacks, as did it did several times before. Casualty figures here come from the UN, I trust you find their bread to be butter on the right side.

Eggy Baby!

Can you please explain how the US or Israel should take out these militants planning the death of their citizens, and even the elimination of their states?

By not creating these guys in the first place through imperialism, militarism and state-sponsored terror.

donfers

dlofnep wrote: »

Israel must really resent democracy if they are threatening to overthrow Abbas for pursuing UN recognition.

on top of that, some reports say the man they assassinated was on the verge of agreeing a long-term ceasefire

could benji be the most dangerous man on the planet?

GRMA

Jaafa

donfers wrote: »

on top of that, some reports say the man they assassinated was on the verge of agreeing a long-term ceasefire

could benji be the most dangerous man on the planet?

Thats been confirmed. Very damning news for Bibi.

Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip. This, according to Israeli peace activist Gershon Baskin, who helped mediate between Israel and Hamas in the deal to release Gilad Shalit and has since then maintained a relationship with Hamas leaders.

Baskin told Haaretz on Thursday that senior officials in Israel knew about his contacts with Hamas and Egyptian intelligence aimed at formulating the permanent truce, but nevertheless approved the assassination.

According to Baskin, during the past two years Jabari internalized the realization that the rounds of hostilities with Israel were beneficial neither to Hamas nor to the inhabitants of the Gaza Strip and only caused suffering, and several times he acted to prevent firing by Hamas into Israel.

He said that even when Hamas was pulled into participating in the launching of rockets, its rockets would always land in open spaces. “And that was intentional,” clarified Baskin.

Suff

Racist and sexist Israeli military shirts show the mindset that led to war crimes in Gaza.. Link

A T-shirt for infantry snipers bears the inscription "Better use Durex," next to a picture of a dead Palestinian baby, with his weeping mother and a teddy bear beside him.

A sharpshooter's T-shirt from the Givati Brigade's Shaked battalion shows a pregnant Palestinian woman with a bull's-eye superimposed on her belly, with the slogan, in English, "1 shot, 2 kills."

donfers

Jaafa wrote: »

Thats been confirmed. Very damning news for Bibi.

this needs to get more coverage in the western media

Chuck Stone

Hours before Hamas strongman Ahmed Jabari was assassinated, he received the draft of a permanent truce agreement with Israel, which included mechanisms for maintaining the cease-fire in the case of a flare-up between Israel and the factions in the Gaza Strip.

This points the finger at people in powerful positions in Israel (the west?) who see peace as a threat.

As a threat to what? A threat to plans to annex east Jerusalem and the West Bank?

A threat to the 'security' industry - the war dividend?

Nodin

Chuck Stone wrote: »

This points the finger at people in powerful positions in Israel (the west?) who see peace as a threat.

As a threat to what? A threat to plans to annex east Jerusalem and the West Bank?

A threat to the 'security' industry - the war dividend?

...well "peace" vs something to boast about in the election campaign and the latter won, maybe.

RobitTV

stuar

Siuin wrote: »

Israel has been bombarded particularly heavily in recent months- do people seriously think that Israel should sit back and twiddle their thumbs while their entire southern population is being continually fired upon and in a state of fear, sitting in bomb shelters on an almost daily basis? Ffs- any other country and there would be complete outrage. Good riddance to the terrorist they killed- may it be a warning to the rest of the cowards targeting innocent civilians.

Ohh and Gaza is the Garden of Eden is it?, the Palestinians were forced off their land, endured every possible human right atrocity, and they with their far less military power should "sit back" and twiddle their thumbs while their entire population is being continually fired upon, any other country and there would be complete outrage!

http://media.skynews.com/media/images/generated/2012/11/15/204173/default/v1/rtr3afo2-1-522x293.jpg
Medics say the baby son of a BBC Arabic employee died in an Israeli strike.

Israel are and always have been the aggressor.

WakeUp

A couple of live cam feeds overlooking Gaza city. I think a ground invasion is on the way and soon. Have updated the first page with these links aswell.

http://rt.com/on-air/gaza-violence-hamas-israel/
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/hanissalamah

AngryHippie

Just a little note for the record, the IDF has killed as many Palestinian Civilians, as IDF members that have been killed by palestinians and

http://old.btselem.org/statistics/english/Casualties.asp

A total of 39 persons have been killed by rocket and mortar fire, and two persons have been killed by anti-tank missiles.

According to the Israel Security Agency reports, in 2012 (until 30 June 2012), Palestinian organizations fired 313 rockets and 56 mortar shells from the Gaza Strip into southern Israel, compared with 418 rockets and 258 mortar shells that were fired in all of 2011. For multi-year details

http://www.btselem.org/israeli_civilians/qassam_missiles#data



Israel is effectively waging an agressive campaign here, in order to prevent the Palestinians achieving their aims of national recognition peacefully and its a fcuking disgrace that the US and UN haven't issued them with some sort of cease and desist. Instead this gory old war is going slug its way through the next few weeks, resulting in a few hundred more Palestinians getting obliterated and a handful of Israelis getting killed before a modicum of sense and fatigue results in a restless ceasefire while both sides regroup and re-arm for the Christmas round of violence.

I'm over this bullsh1t so long ago, both sides are wrong, but the Israelis are the forever provoking the Palestinians like a schoolyard bully then calling foul when they get a bloody nose. What a nation of Ar$eholes.

Higher

WakeUp wrote: »

A couple of live cam feeds overlooking Gaza city. I think a ground invasion is on the way and soon. Have updated the first page with these links aswell.

http://rt.com/on-air/gaza-violence-hamas-israel/
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/hanissalamah

Blasts starting

GRMA

donfers wrote: »

this needs to get more coverage in the western media

It's behind a paywall

SeanW

stuar wrote: »

Ohh and Gaza is the Garden of Eden is it?, the Palestinians were forced off their land, endured every possible human right atrocity, and they with their far less military power should "sit back" and twiddle their thumbs while their entire population is being continually fired upon, any other country and there would be complete outrage!

Israel are and always have been the aggressor.

It seems your side just cant resist whoring pictures of children to score cheap points ... the bolded statement seems rather bizarre in the case of the Gaza strip.

Remember, Israel withdrew from the Gaza strip, left it to the Palestinians in its entirity, withdrawn from there in accordance with the 1967 borders (which they had no obligation to do as they took that land from agressors in war of exterminaton that they defended themselves in). Then the locals saddled themselves with Hamas. Then Hamas started using the whole place as a base to attack Israel. They have continuously and without relent, fired rockets into Southern Israel.

Then and only then did Israel respond with sanctions, and physical retaliation.

Don't get me wrong, I do not think Israel is perfect and I am not a fan of Zionism (though given how Jews have been treated in Europe etc I'm not surprised so many Jews live in Israel/belive in Zionism).

But its clear to me that Israel - having conceded the Gaza Strip - now finds itself under an unprovoked continuous attack, and IMO is well within its rights to defend its Southern citizens. Whatever it takes to make the Gazans stop trying to kill their people, is fine by me.

WakeUp

Reports that troops are starting to move into Gaza and tanks into areas of the West Bank, I cant confirm that its eye witness reports.

KyussBishop

A good overview of the current attacks on Gaza, the US's response, and how it relates to the policies of the US military as well (similar to what I've posted):
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/nov/15/israel-gaza-obama-assassinations

Also a good live blog:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/15/israel-gaza-militants-deadly-exchanges-live

Contrast the British reaction to a similar targeted assassination by Israel, 11 years ago, to now:

"A Foreign Office spokesman said the British government was shocked by what it described as the 'murder' of one of Yasser Arafat's bodyguards by Israeli forces on Tuesday and of nine Israeli soldiers by a Palestinian yesterday...

"Britain has also backed one of the strongest statements yet from the European Union. In a declaration issued by current president Sweden, the EU said it 'deplores the practice of so-called 'eliminations' or extra-judicial killings of Palestinians carried out by Israeli security forces'.

I guess targeted assassinations are suddenly ok now, and don't count as murder anymore?