Death of Savita Halappanavar and the abortion issue

Skrynesaver

Actually Wiley with 3 from UHG and one from the HSE there could be a perception that there are a majority on the inquiry panel with an interest in seeing a fudged outcome

BlaasForRafa

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Actually Wiley with 3 from UHG and one from the HSE there could be a perception that there are a majority on the inquiry panel with an interest in seeing a fudged outcome

The 3 consultants from UHG have been removed from the enquiry now it seems, http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1120/savita-halappanavar-inquiry.html

It was crazy to appoint them in the first place, the perception that they would be biased in favour of their colleagues in Galway was always going to be there. Apparently Mr Halappanavar was not going to co-operate with the enquiry and his testimony is crucial to the case. It doesn't appear as if he wants to have anything to do with the HSE at all, and who can blame him really. I think that eventually an outside body or panel, possibly from abroad is going to have to carry out the enquiry.

sean200

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

The 3 consultants from UHG have been removed from the enquiry now it seems, http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1120/savita-halappanavar-inquiry.html

It was crazy to appoint them in the first place, the perception that they would be biased in favour of their colleagues in Galway was always going to be there. Apparently Mr Halappanavar was not going to co-operate with the enquiry and his testimony is crucial to the case. It doesn't appear as if he wants to have anything to do with the HSE at all, and who can blame him really. I think that eventually an outside body or panel, possibly from abroad is going to have to carry out the enquiry.

This is a complete joke

People die in hospitals every day due to mistakes ect and we hear nothingabout it

Now he is calling for a tribunal in to her death

Like the family are as good as blackmailed the state by saying “They willnot give access to savita medical records”

They have no right to be dedicating that it is our way or no way

There are a lot of other people who treated savita in the hospital who are affectedby this inquiry so should they have an input as they have a right to defendthemselves?

we don’t hear about them.

It is very sad what happened to Savita but the state should be allowed toinvestigate this matter independent of the hospital and Family and if eitherparty id not happy with the outcome then they can go the legal route

The media and others have an agenda here and it is not about finding out whySavita died

Nodin

sean200 wrote: »

This is a complete joke

People die in hospitals every day due to mistakes ect and we hear nothingabout it

Now he is calling for a tribunal in to her death

Like the family are as good as blackmailed the state by saying “They willnot give access to savita medical records”

They have no right to be dedicating that it is our way or no way

There are a lot of other people who treated savita in the hospital who are affectedby this inquiry so should they have an input as they have a right to defendthemselves?

we don’t hear about them.

It is very sad what happened to Savita but the state should be allowed toinvestigate this matter independent of the hospital and Family and if eitherparty id not happy with the outcome then they can go the legal route

The media and others have an agenda here and it is not about finding out whySavita died

And why won't those that treated her get to defend themselves, exactly?

creepellai

sean200 wrote: »

This is a complete joke

People die in hospitals every day due to mistakes ect and we hear nothingabout it

And this is ok?

Now he is calling for a tribunal in to her death

Wouldn't you?

COYW

murphaph wrote: »

Abortion should be available where the mother's health is at risk, not just her life. Making it "health" instead of "life" makes the decision much easier for the doctors who are charged with making the call.

Firstly, I am in my early 30s, and I can honestly say that I have never come across a political issue which is being discussed with such a nasty undertone. I do not remember previous abortion referenda with any great clarity. Both sides, pro-life and pro-choice, have hijacked this awful incident for the betterment of their own agenda. My biggest fear is that Savita's family will be the biggest losers in this horrible saga.

The availability of abortion in circumstances where the mothers health is at risk, would be an utter nightmare for doctors and leave them open to legal action left, right and centre. The current situation of life is difficult, as we can see in this unfortunate case, but health would be twenty times worse. Imagine a situation where mother and child are perfectly healthy in physical terms, but the mother then begins to suffer from depression?

walshb

The current legislation is just not clear cut enough. Health or Life? I mean, some of the healthiest people in the world go into hospital for routine operations and never make it home. No doctor can know for certain the difference between the health or the life of a particular person. Air on the side of caution.

BlaasForRafa

walshb wrote: »

The current legislation is just not clear cut enough. Health or Life? I mean, some of the healthiest people in the world go into hospital for routine operations and never make it home. No doctor can know for certain the difference between the health or the life of a particular person. Air on the side of caution.

One the life of the woman is in danger it may already be too late to save her. This fixation that some people have that women must be forced to carry a foetus to term no matter what is unreal.

Mary Lou McDonald came out with an interesting fact on Vincent Browne's programme last night where she said under the rules they have in Northern Ireland, where it is the health of the woman is at substantial risk of long-term damage, it accounts for 30 or 40 terminations per year which is hardly "opening the floodgates" as the pro-life crowd allege.

creepellai

COYW wrote: »

Both sides, pro-life and pro-choice, have hijacked this awful incident for the betterment of their own agenda. My biggest fear is that Savita's family will be the biggest losers in this horrible saga.

Unfortunately, they have already lost. Nothing can be doen to bring her back, however, maybe, there can some kind of silver lining and help protect future mothers.

Imagine a situation where mother and child are perfectly healthy in physical terms, but the mother then begins to suffer from depression?

The X case comes to mind and there was a court ruling that allowed the girl to have an abortion when she was suicidal. I think that court ruling answers your question.

sean200

Nodin wrote: »

And why won't those that treated her get to defend themselves, exactly?

No record of request for termination in medical file
It is a disgrace what the Irish media and his solicitor are doing in this case

creepellai

sean200 wrote: »

It is a disgrace what the Irish media and his solicitor are doing in this case

So you don't think that something should be done about what happened? And you think that it should be kept quite?

Death and Taxes

sean200 wrote: »

No record of request for termination in medical file
It is a disgrace what the Irish media and his solicitor are doing in this case

And how would you know what is in her medical files?
It's a digrace what this country is doing to womens right to choose!

sean200

creepellai wrote: »

So you don't think that something should be done about what happened? And you think that it should be kept quite?

What I do think is that this man should not be exploited
If It was me I would want a private investigation first , no media involvement and my wife would not be used like this
Then if I need to I would go the legal route
These people don’t give two F***S about this man or his wife
And for you information I think the mother’s life should always be put first

sean200

WileyCoyote wrote: »

And how would you know what is in her medical files?
It's a digrace what this country is doing to womens right to choose!

They reported it today on the news at 1
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1122/savita-halappanavar-inquiry.html

creepellai

Fair enough that thats teh way you would do it but you don't know his reasons for going public. Maybe he felt that more would be done if it was big public media issue. Pressure is on now so maybe he thinks he'll get more answers this way. I don't agree that people

don't give two f***s about this man or his wife

. I feel that people are deeply saddened by this issue and that is why it has blown up in the media. People are outraged that this was allowed to happen in our hospitals. Also, I don't see the problem in using the case as an example in the Pro Choice/Pro Life debate as hopefully that way some good could come from her death (not that it should have come to that).

BlaasForRafa

sean200 wrote: »

What I do think is that this man should not be exploited
If It was me I would want a private investigation first , no media involvement and my wife would not be used like this
Then if I need to I would go the legal route
These people don’t give two F***S about this man or his wife
And for you information I think the mother’s life should always be put first

Its the so-called pro-lifers that don't give two F***S about this man or his wife. These people who are so pro-life that they're willing to see a woman die just because thats what they think their imaginary friend in the sky wants them to do.

Death and Taxes

sean200 wrote: »

They reported it today on the news at 1
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1122/savita-halappanavar-inquiry.html

Wrong, they reported that this mans solicitor had complained that the files were incomplete because reference to the numerous requests made by her for the termination were not included.
In what way do you mean the solictor is acting disgracefully?

nice_guy80

I foresee this scandal eventually taking down the Minister for Health, due to his continuing ineptitude in running things properly

OR/AND

A big falling out between Fine Gael and Labour over the abortion issue and maybe even an early election.

JonathanAnon

COYW wrote: »

Firstly, I am in my early 30s, and I can honestly say that I have never come across a political issue which is being discussed with such a nasty undertone. I do not remember previous abortion referenda with any great clarity. Both sides, pro-life and pro-choice, have hijacked this awful incident for the betterment of their own agenda. My biggest fear is that Savita's family will be the biggest losers in this horrible saga.

Agree 100%... I thought it was extremely cynical that flash mobs suddenly appeared on the streets (and the news/media) without waiting for the results of any inquiry/professional analysis into Savita Halappanavar's death.. Then a few left wing politicians fought between themselves for the moral high ground.. Richard Boyd Barrett as usual leading the charge with his populist crap.. ALL before any report has been carried out into her death..

And then this evening we have Ivana Bacik coming out with the latest.. that any inquiry "must meet the needs of the family"... I find this astounding from a legal person. No result is even likely to satisfy the family, so the best you can hope for is that any inquiry gets to the truth so that any necessary measures can be taken to prevent something similar happening happening in the future.

Nodin

sean200 wrote: »

No record of request for termination in medical file
It is a disgrace what the Irish media and his solicitor are doing in this case

....I don't see how that answer relates to the question about the medical staff not getting a chance to defend themselves......

Memnoch

sean200 wrote: »

No record of request for termination in medical file
It is a disgrace what the Irish media and his solicitor are doing in this case

The implication being that her husband and his solicitor are lying when they say that these requests were made?

Has anyone in the HSE accused them of lying about this? Are you accusing them?

The information not being in the medical record suggests further incompetence/failing of the medical staff involved. I don't see how or why the husband would have made something like this up. But I can easily see how the medical team might have failed to record this information.

Can you imagine ANY junior doctor writing in the chart. 'Patient requested termination. Was informed by X that this is not possible as Ireland is a catholic country.' That would be the end of their career, if they dared to put that anywhere in writing. You have no idea how much goes wrong every day in our hospitals that is never documented.

walshb

Isn't this whole affair based on the woman's repeated requests for her pregnancy to be terminated? If not, what's it all about? Now we hear that in the HSE files relating to the woman, there are no recorded requests made by the woman for the termination.

Memnoch

walshb wrote: »

Isn't this whole affair based on the woman's repeated requests for her pregnancy to be terminated? If not, what's it all about? Now we hear that in the HSE files relating to the woman, there are no recorded requests made by the woman for the termination.

Well actually it's more than that... the fact that she was allowed to die from blood poisoning due to lack of treatment is appalling.

That her requests were refused is what makes it galling.

I'm not sure what you mean. I wish if people were going to say, 'it never happened,' they'd have the guts to come out and say it instead of this sly insinuation. So why don't you clarify if you mean to say that she in fact never requested that the miscarriage be removed?

walshb

Memnoch wrote: »

Well actually it's more than that... the fact that she was allowed to die from blood poisoning due to lack of treatment is appalling.

That her requests were refused is what makes it galling.

I'm not sure what you mean. I wish if people were going to say, 'it never happened,' they'd have the guts to come out and say it instead of this sly insinuation. So why don't you clarify if you mean to say that she in fact never requested that the miscarriage be removed?

I am querying the fact that our national health system seems to have not recorded a woman's pleas to have her pregnancy terminated. There is something very wrong if they failed to note and record her pleas. And, I assume the pleas were made. If they were made why is there no documentation or record? Madness.

BTW, I wasn't in the hospital. I cannot know what went on. I am trusting and believing that the woman pleaded and asked for her pregnancy to be terminated. I also believe that it was due to her health/life being in danger that the woman made the pleas.

BlaasForRafa

walshb wrote: »

I am querying the fact that our national health system seems to have not recorded a woman's pleas to have her pregnancy terminated. There is something very wrong if they failed to note and record her pleas. And, I assume the pleas were made. If they were made why is there no documentation or record? Madness.

BTW, I wasn't in the hospital. I cannot know what went on. I am trusting and believing that the woman pleaded and asked for her pregnancy to be terminated. I also believe that it was due to her health/life being in danger that the woman made the pleas.

I think I get what you are saying and in answer to the why part of your question, it wouldn''t surprise me if the consultants left her pleas off the records so as to cover their own butts. If Mr Halappanavar hadn't gone public then this all may have gone under the radar of the HSE and never been heard about again.

walshb

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I think I get what you are saying and in answer to the why part of your question, it wouldn''t surprise me if the consultants left her pleas off the records so as to cover their own butts. If Mr Halappanavar hadn't gone public then this all may have gone under the radar of the HSE and never been heard about again.

I believe the woman. I know nothing for sure. She was an educated lady. I believe that she pled for the termination and that the request(s) were refused. If it's shown that this was not noted and recorded then I think there is something very wrong; if it was not noted and recorded and this was a HSE policy then I think it may need looking at.

thebman

Expert group reports in SBP that they are in favor of limited abortion with regulation.

nuac

Memnoch wrote: »

The implication being that her husband and his solicitor are lying when they say that these requests were made?

Has anyone in the HSE accused them of lying about this? Are you accusing them?

The information not being in the medical record suggests further incompetence/failing of the medical staff involved. I don't see how or why the husband would have made something like this up. But I can easily see how the medical team might have failed to record this information.

Can you imagine ANY junior doctor writing in the chart. 'Patient requested termination. Was informed by X that this is not possible as Ireland is a catholic country.' That would be the end of their career, if they dared to put that anywhere in writing. You have no idea how much goes wrong every day in our hospitals that is never documented.[/QUOTE

rodento

thebman wrote: »

Expert group reports in SBP that they are in favor of limited abortion with regulation.

Would the current proposals have actually have saved her, if its the case of they would only act if her life was at risk and not her health, than the doctors may not realise how much at risk she was until to late

ressem

rodento wrote: »

Would the current proposals have actually have saved her, if its the case of they would only act if her life was at risk and not her health, than the doctors may not realise how much at risk she was until to late

During a radio interview with an Indian gynecologist on RTE last week, she suggested that an abortion would not have solved the sepsis, and the effect might have been to further complicate the treatment. I.e. in this case it might not have improved Mrs Halappanavar's chances.

It should be an option available to doctors, and some Irish oncologists have said that it is already, just with a legal grey area which will always be there when the legislation meets life-vs-death situations.

But the whole press, political and diplomatic condemnation focusing on a medically unfounded comment by someone who hasn't been identified as a doctor involved in the treatment is grotesque.

Ash.J.Williams

Was the problem really a patient was sent home with a dilated cervix and a dying foetus inside her and wasn't cared for?

jasonmcco

sean200 wrote: »

No record of request for termination in medical file
It is a disgrace what the Irish media and his solicitor are doing in this case

So you think the man is lying when he said he asked for a termination.

People when they have god on their side can be so evil. Strange.

beggars_bush

nice_guy80 wrote: »

I foresee this scandal eventually taking down the Minister for Health, due to his continuing ineptitude in running things properly

OR/AND

A big falling out between Fine Gael and Labour over the abortion issue and maybe even an early election.

Minister Reilly is going to be under pressure with the latest development

Skrynesaver

Given that Praveen is holding out for an inquiry under judicial supervision the facts of this case may not be proved until after the government has legislated.

jasonmcco wrote: »

...
People when they have god on their side can be so evil. Strange.

Well you know what they say....
Good people will do good
Evil people will do evil
But for good people to do evil requires religion.

The Volt

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/pdf/Judgment_ABC.pdf?direct=1

Report is out.

sean200

jasonmcco wrote: »

So you think the man is lying when he said he asked for a termination.

People when they have god on their side can be so evil. Strange.

I never said he was lying and if you go back through my posts you will seemy point is that there are two sides to this story as in every story

The fact remain that there was no reference to a termination in the medicalfile which raises the following

1) It was not recorder

2) She did not ask for one

3) It was recorded and some of the file is missing

But you or me or any other person on this are in a position to say which ofthe above 3 is true

Yet you have idiots on here who straight away blame the staff

.

sean200

southsiderosie wrote: »

So after a doctor has diagnosed that a woman was having a miscarriage, they are supposed to say "oh, but I could be wrong so let's wait and see". Yes, that sounds sensible and humane. /sarcasm

I suggest you look at Canada and how they deal with this

Canada has legal abortion but in the event of a miscarriage they let naturetake its course as it is best for the recovery of the mother both physical andemotional

Ash.J.Williams

sean200 wrote: »

I suggest you look at Canada and how they deal with this

Canada has legal abortion but in the event of a miscarriage they let naturetake its course as it is best for the recovery of the mother both physical andemotional

isn't that what happened in galway, they just didn't observe the patient while "nature was taking it's course" and she got an infection and then died?

bobafro

addi

sean200 wrote: »

I suggest you look at Canada and how they deal with this

Canada has legal abortion but in the event of a miscarriage they let naturetake its course as it is best for the recovery of the mother both physical andemotional

But not in the case where there is any danger to the woman!

What has happened yesterday is the most disgraceful piece of political hypocrisy I have seen in a long time. Ireland, it seem, is no longer a democracy for the people... party politics is acting as an opposition to democratic society.

EDIT: Also as far as recovery goes, I would like to see a peer reviewed journal paper that verifies that a miscarraige in all cases is healthier both physically and emotionally than an abortion. This reminds me of Dara O'Brien talking about anti-natal classes and how the mid-wife actually said a 'tear' heals better than a 'cut'... that's why surgeons use bears for the initial incision...

The world seems to be full of absolute codswallop and old wives tales that people take at face value without ever looking for evidence (if it agrees with what they think is morally correct) Look for evidence and use this to base your morals...

Akrasia

Voltwad wrote: »

http://www.dohc.ie/publications/pdf/Judgment_ABC.pdf?direct=1

Report is out.

Has anyone read this report?

It was totally worth the wait (not)

All this time the government refused to deal with this issue because 'we are waiting for the expert group report' and all the report says is this

'If the government wants to comply with it's legal obligations, it needs to enact legislation or ammend the existing legislation'

Duh!

seamus

Akrasia wrote: »

Has anyone read this report?
...
All this time the government refused to deal with this issue because 'we are waiting for the expert group report'

I had a look through some of the first pages of each chapter, didn't have time to read the whole thing.
It's actually an excellent document for someone who's under 40 and/or is coming relatively new to this debate. It contains a comprehensive history of the debate in Ireland in very easy to read language and without any bias or spin on it.

It's prudent of any government to avoid rushing into legislating, especially when it's a matter as emotive and complicated as this. Commissioning a report and refusing to move on the issue until the report arrives, I fail to see a problem with that.

It's actually twice as important, in the wake of Savita's case, that the Government takes the time to review the report and then deal with it. Kneejerk reactions always lead to big mistakes.

However, what's important about the timing of Savita's case is that it has now pushed the issue to the forefront, requiring the government to consider it in the short-term. If this had not happened, any government might have sat on this report until Christmas 2014 before making a move. As it stands, they have 3 weeks to come up with a plan to move on the issue. It's not as fast as some would like, but in the context of government, and especially considering that it's a 56-page report on a complex issue, 3 weeks is exceptionally quick.

all the report says is this

'If the government wants to comply with it's legal obligations, it needs to enact legislation or ammend the existing legislation'

That's unfair, tbh. The report includes a comprehensive discussion about the history and issues surrounding the matter, and recommends a couple of possible paths that the government can choose to take in order to fulfill their obligations.

The report's purpose was never to tell the government whether legislation was needed, but what kind of legislation was needed and the best ways to implement it for the common good.

Read the document. You don't even need to go through the whole thing, just the last few chapters outlining their recommendations.

southsiderosie

sean200 wrote: »

I suggest you look at Canada and how they deal with this

Canada has legal abortion but in the event of a miscarriage they let naturetake its course as it is best for the recovery of the mother both physical andemotional

In what country where there are clear guidelines on abortion would a woman in the midst of a miscarriage be denied medical termination if she requested it? This is a very personal decision, especially for women who have had multiple miscarriages - I can certainly understand why any woman who literally felt her baby seeping out of her would not want to go through that process again if she did not have to.

There is a big difference between doctors recommending a process and doctors mandating a process. In this type of unfortunate situation, women should have a choice.

In addition, if you expect anyone to read up on anything, it would be helpful to provide some actual links.

bobafro

southsiderosie wrote: »

In what country where there are clear guidelines on abortion would a woman in the midst of a miscarriage be denied medical termination if she requested it? This is a very personal decision, especially for women who have had multiple miscarriages - I can certainly understand why any woman who literally felt her baby seeping out of her would not want to go through that process again if she did not have to.

There is a big difference between doctors recommending a process and doctors mandating a process. In this type of unfortunate situation, women should have a choice.

In addition, if you expect anyone to read up on anything, it would be helpful to provide some actual links.

I don't think I could possibly agree more with this comment.

rodento

Lost for words

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0118/savita-inquest.html

In his opening statement, the Galway West Coroner, Dr Ciaran MacLoughlin, said it was his job to ensure the inquest would be independent, prompt and effective.

Dr MacLoughlin said he wished to acknowledge the full co-operation of Mr Halappanavar and his legal team and that of the gardaí, the HSE and their legal representatives

Mr Buckley told the coroner that 48 statements had already been provided and that a further eight were outstanding.
He said that two of the individuals yet to make statements "needed to be safeguarded from distress".
These are members of staff who made a written entry to the hospital records.
They have been unable to assist the investigation for confidential reasons, which the coroner said he recognised and accepted

Nodin

sean200 wrote: »

I never said he was lying and if you go back through my posts you will seemy point is that there are two sides to this story as in every story

The fact remain that there was no reference to a termination in the medicalfile which raises the following

1) It was not recorder

2) She did not ask for one

3) It was recorded and some of the file is missing

But you or me or any other person on this are in a position to say which ofthe above 3 is true

Yet you have idiots on here who straight away blame the staff

.

Care to revise your position....?

Medical notes by the consultant obstetrician and gynaecologist that treated Savita Halappanavar indicate that she made a request for the termination of her pregnancy.
It is the first official confirmation of the request since the case became public three months ago and comes before the inquest into her death opens in Galway on Friday.
The request was made within days of her admission to the hospital on 21 October.
The notes also indicate that it was not possible to comply with the request.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0117/savita-halappanavar-galway.html

Silvio.Dante

The Unite For Life in Merrion Square on Saturday was a big wake up call for FG and FF TDs as the looming legislation appears on the horizon.

25,000 voices calling on Enda to keep his Pro Life promise.

It was the first time the Life organisations spoke with one voice.

Now while poor Enda is being compared to some historical King in Biblical times, he should try and spend one day as a Life advocate. But we've got thick skins...:)

Death and Taxes

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

The Unite For Life in Merrion Square on Saturday was a big wake up call for FG and FF TDs as the looming legislation appears on the horizon.

25,000 voices calling on Enda to keep his Pro Life promise.

It was the first time the Life organisations spoke with one voice.

Now while poor Enda is being compared to some historical King in Biblical times, he should try and spend one day as a Life advocate. But we've got thick skins...:)

And over 4,000,000 didn't turn up!

28064212

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

25,000 voices calling on Enda to keep his Pro Life promise.

The 25,000 figure aside (which is tenuous at best), which Pro-Life promise is this? Is it this one.

Fine Gael will establish an all-party Oireachtas Committee, with access to medical and legal expertise, to consider the implications to the recent ruling of the European Court of Human Rights and to make recommendations

Which promise are they breaking exactly?

Silvio.Dante

WileyCoyote (Accelleratii Incredibus!) wrote: »

And over 4,000,000 didn't turn up!

While we got 25,000 on the street all the 'other side' could muster was 170...;)

seamus

There is no reliable source for the claim of 25,000 people. Every report quoted "official Garda estimates" which the Gardai never provided afair. Images and analysis of the event very generously estimate the figure at half that, most likely a good deal less.