The myth of Joe Hart

Maximus Alexander

Insect Overlord wrote: »

LOL. He plays for the defending Premier League champions.

So does Gareth Barry.

Sugarlumps

Me'h he's average.

TheDoc

Xavi6 wrote: »

Yeah, nah. I've no doubt that the standards set at the reigning Premier League Champions are as high as they come.

But sure, if you have the inside word that it's different then good on you.

Given Hart's (notice the lack of an 'e' there in the spelling) age, ability and general character I wouldn't swap him right now. The hyperbole in both directions is hilarious, he's a very good keeper and will continue to be.

Happy days.

I can appreciate the defensive stance your taking of the bat in fairness. As a MUFC supporter, I have the same with De Gea.

My personal opinion of Harte is not that he is over rated. Unfortunately for him, the English press have put his ability to a level it never really was. So he will very quickly be labelled over rted, because he was never at the level at the first place.

Harte is young, he is playing week in week out, first choice keeper for PL contenders and his national team. A goalkeeper really won't come into fruition until his mid to late twenties, so I'd be reseving judgement until then.

For the press and quarters that label him the best keeper in Europe, or the best keeper in the league, I totally disagree, and feel he is suffering the Given effect.

Basic goalkeeping requirements being blown out of proportion, covering up decencies of a class goalkeeper.

His reflexes and shot stopping are very good, but this is bread and butter for a goalkeeper. Although his reflexes are VERY good. His command of his box is less then average, his aerial ability leaves alot to be desired and his distribution is poor.

But he is young, he has plenty of time to come along and very may well turn into a world class / european class goalkeeper.

But he is nowhere near it at present, and I think thats where the comments stem about being over rated. But its again people taking Sky pundits as gospel.

There are numerous SKy pundits who have labelled Harte one of the top keepers in Europe, but as usual they barely look outside their own borders, he is barely top 15 around Europe at present.

People would do well to focus on the actual relevancy. An in all honesty, its cringy watching alot of threads/posts about goalkeepers, as unless you played in between the sticks for a lengthy period you won't be looking for the right attributes etc.

EdenHazard

FlawedGenius wrote: »

Krul is Dutch.

I meant if I was a manager of a club. I disagree Stekelenburg isn't a patch on Hart, another kind of overrated keeper(especially around the world cup) but similar level to Hart I'd say.

McGrath5

He is a very good, promising young goalkeeper. He does make his fair share of mistakes though.

Give him time, and he will be one of the best goalkeepers in the game.

Drumpot

Scuba Ste wrote: »

That's a lot of bitterness to store up for 6 months; can't be healthy. And your point about de Gea getting more stick from United fans says more about the fans than either keeper.

I would't have many other keepers at City. All players make mistakes but Hart doesn't seem to buy into the hype or get affected by the criticism too much.

Actually the stick he gets from the united fans says more about the standards set at the club . . But its hard for fans of smaller clubs to understand how that works . . If your desperate for success at any cost, you dont really set the standard bar too high . .

Incidentally, how do you know Hart doesnt get effected by the criticism ? He followed up the poor goal he conceded against Spurs with a great performance against Sweden ? Guess we just have to take your word for it . .

Beefy78

He's 25 which is still very young for a goalkeeper. He makes mistakes but they don't seem to bother him too much which is a quality that I like in him. He's a fantastic reflex shot stopper and hopefully will iron out the mistakes as he gets older as other keepers have.

FWIW, I don't think he was particularly at fault for the 4th last night. 99 times out of 100 (999 times out of 1,000?) he'd have got away with that. The third was very poor though, as was the goal conceeded in Poland last month (although I'd also blame the rest of the England team for that as if you give the opposition wave after wave of attack you're putting a lot of pressure on the goalkeeper).

He's relatively hailed in England because, mistakes & all, he's so far ahead of the next best option that it's not even a comparison.

Insect Overlord

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

So does Gareth Barry.

1 goalkeeper, many midfielders.

And Aston Villa were built around Barry for ages as well, lest we forget. He must have some qualities.

Ares

TheDoc wrote: »

I can appreciate the defensive stance your taking of the bat in fairness. As a MUFC supporter, I have the same with De Gea.

My personal opinion of Harte is not that he is over rated. Unfortunately for him, the English press have put his ability to a level it never really was. So he will very quickly be labelled over rted, because he was never at the level at the first place.

Harte is young, he is playing week in week out, first choice keeper for PL contenders and his national team. A goalkeeper really won't come into fruition until his mid to late twenties, so I'd be reseving judgement until then.

For the press and quarters that label him the best keeper in Europe, or the best keeper in the league, I totally disagree, and feel he is suffering the Given effect.

Basic goalkeeping requirements being blown out of proportion, covering up decencies of a class goalkeeper.

His reflexes and shot stopping are very good, but this is bread and butter for a goalkeeper. Although his reflexes are VERY good. His command of his box is less then average, his aerial ability leaves alot to be desired and his distribution is poor.

But he is young, he has plenty of time to come along and very may well turn into a world class / european class goalkeeper.

But he is nowhere near it at present, and I think thats where the comments stem about being over rated. But its again people taking Sky pundits as gospel.

There are numerous SKy pundits who have labelled Harte one of the top keepers in Europe, but as usual they barely look outside their own borders, he is barely top 15 around Europe at present.

People would do well to focus on the actual relevancy. An in all honesty, its cringy watching alot of threads/posts about goalkeepers, as unless you played in between the sticks for a lengthy period you won't be looking for the right attributes etc.

How can you spell Given and De Gea correctly but not Hart? I mean it is four letters for the love of god. :rolleyes:

Drumpot

Ares wrote: »

How can you spell Given and De Gea correctly but not Hart? I mean it is four letters for the love of god. :rolleyes:

How can sombody quote a huge post lik that and singl out the speling of Harte ?

The gramer Nazis are out in forse in this thred !

Do you actually have anything interesting to contribute to the comments ? Maybe somebody else can post a funny GIF that people can laugh and "thank"?

Silly me for ever thinking that many people on this forum are incapable of debating topics properly , instead prefering to try and look funny so they can get loads of thumbs up from their buddies . . Whatever was I thinking . .

First person to post a funny GIF wins .

Mitch Connor

I would say United fans are most vocal about the failings of Hart(e), compared to most fans. And the reason for this is De Gea.

De Gea was labled a flop in the media without a couple of weeks - articles being written about how signing him was a massive mistake and one of Fergie's worst ever signings (taking the title from the likes of Bellion, Djemba Djemba and Bebe). He was being compared to the disaster that was Taibi.

His first few weeks/months were terrible, but from Christmas on last season he was absolutely superb for the most part - making stunning saves ever game and being generally top quality. However, there was the odd gaff and the media jumped on him again, saying he was rubbish and dodgy and not fit for purpose.

Opposition fans (and United fans) also fed into this crap - writing the kid off and calling him rubbish, pointing out every mistake he made and saying how rubbish he was cause of the mistake - look, he didn't collect the cross; the kid is rubbish.

Hart, on the other hand, gets lauded by the press as the best keeper in the world. He makes a mistake and it is quickly, very quickly, forgotten about or just plain ignored.

United fans quite commonly say 'If De Gea had done that....' with respect to the mistakes Hart has made because if De Gea made them there'd be countless articles saying how crap he was and how he is costing United the league. It is the same with Reina, he has made as many cock ups as De Gea in the last couple of years but still rated as one of the best around.

The reality of the situation is that Hart is England's best goal keeper, and one of the best in the PL. If you took the first choice keeper from all other top teams (say they all retired for some reason) they'd all beat the door down to sign Hart. He is very good and imo he will be fantastic. The save he made against Liverpool at home (i think it was liverpool and i think it was this season) - where the ball was volleyed in and deflected on its way through - was, honestly, one of the best saves I have ever seen - super-human reactions and speed to save the shot. His performance vs Dortmund was astounding. He is absolutely capable of world class displays.

Just as I don't think De Gea should be written off for his mistakes, Hart shouldn't be hammered for his either - taking their general performance levels and capabilities into account rather than the odd mistake would show them to be two utterly fantastic young keepers, with the potential to be the best in the business in a few years. Hart has to work on crosses and distribution, De Gea also has to work on crosses and pressence. Neither are perfect, neither are the best in the world but at their age it would be very surprising if they were.

Do I think Hart is the best in the world, no. But I do think he is fantastic and has the potential to be one of the very best.

It is just the English media and those that are far too swayed by it that claim he is - but any club would be lucky to have him.

BetterCallSaul

Seaneh wrote: »

So is Vorm...

And Both Vorm and Kurl can't get a look in ahead of Maarten Stekelenburg for the dutch national team, and even Stekelenburg doesn't have a patch on Hart!

Stekelenburg was dropped and Krul made number 1 for the WC qualifiers when Van Gaal took over. He got injured after the first game though.

IamtheWalrus

ITV did a piece on him before one of Man City's CL games this season. Cringe-worthy even for ITV. He said in the interview he's England's keeper and he's "rather good". Alarm bells!

Al Capwned

Mitch Connor wrote: »

long post above....

This is absolutely spot on Mitch. Nail on the head.

LuckyLloyd

I think he will eventually become the keeper the English media reckons he already is. That's a few years down the line yet. Keepers don't have their best years in their early twenties.

BhoscaCapall

Mitch Connor wrote: »

It is the same with Reina, he has made as many cock ups as De Gea in the last couple of years but still rated as one of the best around.

Not any more he's not.

Grayditch

Made my mind up 2 years ago, watching this game live:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP4L-VUn_hs

Warning: IMMEDIATELY MUTE THE SOUND.

Insect Overlord

Grayditch wrote: »

Made my mind up 2 years ago, watching this game live:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP4L-VUn_hs

Warning: IMMEDIATELY MUTE THE SOUND.

Hmmm...

whippedcream wrote: »

Joe hart is like nickelback

Interesting! :pac:

BhoscaCapall

Grayditch wrote: »

Made my mind up 2 years ago, watching this game live:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sP4L-VUn_hs

David Marshall had the game of his life against Barca and he's still crap :P

IamtheWalrus

I agree with Roy

sprinkles

I think the English press are very quick to proclaim someone the "best in the world" and similarily as quick to proclaim them "****". We wouldn't be talking about Hart if the English media hadn't proclaimed him to be some sort of saviour. He's a good keeper, one of the best in the PL, but I'd have a good few ahead of him.

One of my fondest whitecaps memory has to be when Man City came to play a preseason friendly and the Caps went 1-0 up in the first half. I was sitting right behind Hart, who had replaced Given as City's #1 that summer, and after everyone calmed down, I shouted "Given would have saved that". Hart shot me daggers and everyone around me burst out laughing. The whitecaps went on to lose the game.

Drumpot

Mitch Connor wrote: »

I would say United fans are most vocal about the failings of Hart(e), compared to most fans. And the reason for this is De Gea.

De Gea was labled a flop in the media without a couple of weeks - articles being written about how signing him was a massive mistake and one of Fergie's worst ever signings (taking the title from the likes of Bellion, Djemba Djemba and Bebe). He was being compared to the disaster that was Taibi.

His first few weeks/months were terrible, but from Christmas on last season he was absolutely superb for the most part - making stunning saves ever game and being generally top quality. However, there was the odd gaff and the media jumped on him again, saying he was rubbish and dodgy and not fit for purpose.

Opposition fans (and United fans) also fed into this crap - writing the kid off and calling him rubbish, pointing out every mistake he made and saying how rubbish he was cause of the mistake - look, he didn't collect the cross; the kid is rubbish.

Hart, on the other hand, gets lauded by the press as the best keeper in the world. He makes a mistake and it is quickly, very quickly, forgotten about or just plain ignored.

United fans quite commonly say 'If De Gea had done that....' with respect to the mistakes Hart has made because if De Gea made them there'd be countless articles saying how crap he was and how he is costing United the league. It is the same with Reina, he has made as many cock ups as De Gea in the last couple of years but still rated as one of the best around.

The reality of the situation is that Hart is England's best goal keeper, and one of the best in the PL. If you took the first choice keeper from all other top teams (say they all retired for some reason) they'd all beat the door down to sign Hart. He is very good and imo he will be fantastic. The save he made against Liverpool at home (i think it was liverpool and i think it was this season) - where the ball was volleyed in and deflected on its way through - was, honestly, one of the best saves I have ever seen - super-human reactions and speed to save the shot. His performance vs Dortmund was astounding. He is absolutely capable of world class displays.

Just as I don't think De Gea should be written off for his mistakes, Hart shouldn't be hammered for his either - taking their general performance levels and capabilities into account rather than the odd mistake would show them to be two utterly fantastic young keepers, with the potential to be the best in the business in a few years. Hart has to work on crosses and distribution, De Gea also has to work on crosses and pressence. Neither are perfect, neither are the best in the world but at their age it would be very surprising if they were.

Do I think Hart is the best in the world, no. But I do think he is fantastic and has the potential to be one of the very best.

It is just the English media and those that are far too swayed by it that claim he is - but any club would be lucky to have him.

Best post I read on this forum for some time . . +100%

Brain Stroking

He is a great shotstopper but too many of those stopped shots are parried into the paths of onrushing opposition players

Brain Stroking

Drumpot wrote: »

How can sombody quote a huge post lik that and singl out the speling of Harte ?

The gramer Nazis are out in forse in this thred !

Do you actually have anything interesting to contribute to the comments ? Maybe somebody else can post a funny GIF that people can laugh and "thank"?

Silly me for ever thinking that many people on this forum are incapable of debating topics properly , instead prefering to try and look funny so they can get loads of thumbs up from their buddies . . Whatever was I thinking . .

First person to post a funny GIF wins .

Try the Liverpool thread. I got insulted and called a troll today for arguing that Suarez might just be tempted by Man City. And further, that Edin Dzeko is not that far off Suarez' level when they were arguing that they would only sell Suarez to City for 40 million plus Dzeko :pac:

Lesson learnt. Some threads are full of fanboys and hot air. No one wants a debate. You live and you learn.

PhlegmyMoses

Agreed with Mitch Connor.

As an aside, I said on here a while back the Hart would take a stumble in the eyes of the fans and media because he was being built up too much previously.

He is a quality young goalkeeper who has made a plethora of mistakes in the last two years, like De Gea. Unlike De Gea, he at least got an easy run from the media for a little while.

The 3rd and 4th goals last night were poor from him.

Backstreet Moyes

De Gea and Hart are two young keepers who are already very good. De Gea makes mistakes and Hart makes mistakes. They are both great shot stoppers and not completely convincing on commanding their area. I have seen Hart makes a good few mistakes this season and its ignored by the media. De Gea makes a mistake he is called a flop he nevers gets a free ride. United fans moan because De Gea gets crucified for a mistake. Hart's mistakes are never talked about. De Gea is a fantastic shot stopper and has great distribution and can only improve on his command of his area. Hart is a fantastic young keeper also. Its not his fault the media wont criticise him. He may be overrated but he is a very good young keeper and will be one of the best. De Gea is underrated and is very good for his age and will be one of the best.

Right now their is not much between them Hart with more experience would shade it for me now. In the long run once De Gea improves on crosses he could be the best in the world. They are two very good keepers and both will be world class goalkeepers.

GavRedKing

Courtois > De Gea & Hart

Kylo Ren

EEm

There is a myth that the english commentators make hart out to be a god. They don't. He is a good keeper and they know it.

Mars Bar

GavRedKing wrote: »

Courtois > De Gea & Hart

Is he still in Spain? He looks a super prospect but...let's see how he'll be under crosses when he gets back!

BhoscaCapall

Courtois was unbelievable against Celtic when we played Atletico last year. Was so disappointed when I found out he was contracted to Chelski.

Hootanany

He went downhill since he left Birmingham City.

Blatter

GavRedKing wrote: »

Courtois > De Gea & Hart

Do you think Courtois will ever end up playing for Cheslea Gav?

The only way it happens is if Cech's time at Chelsea is ended prematurely. He's only 30, he surely has at least another 5/6 years left at the top.

Chelsea aren't gonna keep loaning Courtois out season after season, are they? What's the long term plan here? It's an odd situation.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

EEm wrote: »

There is a myth that the english commentators make hart out to be a god. They don't.

They do, they really do.

Melion wrote: »

As a neutral,

HA!

Cienciano

If Hart was French, Danish, Spanish, any nationality but English this thread wouldn't exist. Good keeper, but makes way to many mistakes. Have to agree with the Man-U fans, his mistakes are generally ignored, complete opposite of De Gea.

Beefy78

baz2009 wrote: »

They do, they really do.

No, they make him out to be England's best keeper. Which he is.

Grayditch

Brain Stroking wrote: »

Try the Liverpool thread. I got insulted and called a troll today for arguing that Suarez might just be tempted by Man City. And further, that Edin Dzeko is not that far off Suarez' level when they were arguing that they would only sell Suarez to City for 40 million plus Dzeko :pac:

Lesson learnt. Some threads are full of fanboys and hot air. No one wants a debate. You live and you learn.

Get over it. You were acting the fool.

Jelle1880

GavRedKing wrote: »

Mignolet and Courtois > De Gea & Hart

GavRedKing

Blatter wrote: »

Do you think Courtois will ever end up playing for Cheslea Gav?

The only way it happens is if Cech's time at Chelsea is ended prematurely. He's only 30, he surely has at least another 5/6 years left at the top.

Chelsea aren't gonna keep loaning Courtois out season after season, are they? What's the long term plan here? It's an odd situation.

Was away so couldnt give my opinion on it.

It all depends I think on who our next manager is IMO.

If and its a big if, Pep does take over from RDM in the summer I reckon he'll fancy a change and chop alot of the current squad.

Courtois will have 3 years left on his Chelsea contract when he comes back from his latest loan and I'd love to see him given a chance. The same thing happened to Cudicini when Cech came in for his first season, Cudicini was one fo the best in the league at time and Cech dislodged him, while I think Cech still has plenty to give theres near or makes no difference 10 years between Courtois and Cech and I think Courtois will be a star player for us.

courtois himself has said when he comes back to Chelsea its not to play 2nd fiddle to anyone and you can see why he would think that having played the last 2 years with Atletico and winning the Europa league, hes kept a clean sheet in nearly every other game aswell for them so hes playing well.

Although Atletico could easily go down the route of asking for Courtois in any deal that could see Falcao going to Stamford Bridge.

Edit : Forgot to mention there was talks a few weeks back that Courtois would be loaned out one last time to an EPL side next season to see how he'd perfrom in the EPL.

mitosis

Drumpot wrote: »

What tin foil hat? De Gea gets more grief from some of his own fans for less then some of the mistakes hart has made. He made a balls of the spurs goal and yet some people actually think that this goal would be ok for most top keepers. WTF. We are only less then a third into the season and he's made several mistakes and let in average goals. He's under the spotlight because he has been built up so much.

Da Gea has made some amazing saves, including save of the season away to Chelsea and even his own fans wait for him to make a mistake so they can jump on the bandwagon. He gets little praise for what he does right and destroyed for Anything negative irrespective of how minor it is.

How anybody thinks hart gets more scrutinised is laughable.

Wow, this is low level trolling worthy of a catfish. Before you were mis-spelling his name, now you are failing to use the capital - though you appear capable of using it for De Gee. Do you see what I did there?

Joe Hart is a good keeper, not the new Ray Clemence, but he's not the new Taibi either.

EdenHazard

He made a deadly save the other day, but like I say you'd see amazing saves at all levels

TheDoc

Beefy78 wrote: »

No, they make him out to be England's best keeper. Which he is.

Which from looking at their options, isn't overly difficult to achieve.

Being Englands number 1 has very little relevance considering the Goalkeepers in England recently have been pretty average.

It holds wait when you say your "Spains no.1" or "Germanys no.1" based on the competition the keepers there face.

The **** is Hart competing with....

Beefy78

Well that was my point.

Hart is streets ahead of the next best English goalkeeper, he plays for the English champions and is one of the better goalkeepers in the Premier League. That's why English broadcasters broadcasting the English league will speak highly of him.

Hart (and Manuel Neuer to mention another keeper at the same sort of level and same sort of occasional over-hype) reminds me of Iker Casillas when Casillas was the age Hart is now. Nowhere near the end product, still makes mistakes but the self-confidence, potential and experience mark him out as the real deal.

Dempsey

Beefy78 wrote: »

Well that was my point.

Hart is streets ahead of the next best English goalkeeper, he plays for the English champions and is one of the better goalkeepers in the Premier League. That's why English broadcasters broadcasting the English league will speak highly of him.

No he isnt tbh, Forster has proven that this season

Beefy78

He really hasn't proven it at all and I don't see how he can prove it in Scotland. But I know you're a Celtic fan so I'll leave it there.

Dempsey

Beefy78 wrote: »

He really hasn't proven it at all and I don't see how he can prove it in Scotland. But I know you're a Celtic fan so I'll leave it there.

Why cant he prove it in Scotland? Thats an utterly rubbish perception bandied about by people that dont watch the league they are criticising and/or cant judge a player unless he's in a league they watch.

He has excelled in Scotland, certainly shown that he's capable of playing at higher level and he has performed very well in Europe over the past 2 seasons. If he hasnt proven it at all then its a case of you not watching the player and casting dispersions through ignorance than any actual insight.

Mitch Connor

Dempsey wrote: »

Why cant he prove it in Scotland? Thats utterly rubbish perception bandied about by people that dont watch the league they are criticising and/or cant judge a player unless he's in a league they watch.

He has excelled in Scotland, certainly shown that he's capable of playing at higher level and he has performed very well in Europe over the past 2 seasons. If he hasnt proven it at all then its a case of you not watching the player and casting dispersions through ignorance than any actual insight.

The standard of strikers in the Scottish league is well below that of the PL and CL, so being a top keeper in Scotland does not automatically translate to be a top level keeper. Performances in Europe have been good.

GavRedKing

For comparison of Hart & Forster.

Hart has kept 35 clean sheets in 2010-11 (18) & 2011-12 (17) & 3 this year. Total -38

Forster has kept 42 clean sheets in 2010-11 (21) & 2011-12 (21) & 6 this year. Total - 48

Thats just league games BTW.

Forster isnt as good as Hart but hes a decent number 2 to have if Hart is out.

Dempsey

Mitch Connor wrote: »

The standard of strikers in the Scottish league is well below that of the PL and CL, so being a top keeper in Scotland does not automatically translate to be a top level keeper. Performances in Europe have been good.

Never said it was automatic, I said he has shown that he could play at a higher level and he has proven that consistently in the Europa League & Champions League and eventually recieved a call up to the England Squad as a result of this.

For anyone to say he hasnt proven it at all is utter rubbish.

Insect Overlord

Forster -v- Barcelona x2 = inspiration to goalkeepers everywhere.