Isreal at war. Many comentators egging them on.

BlaasForRafa

wes wrote: »

I would have an easier time to believe that, if Israel wasn't spending a ton of money on there illegal settlements. If they want settlements, then they need all the military stuff to back that up. Israel are not blameless for there situation. No one is forcing them to expand outside there borders, and incur all the expense that such a project entails. If there against such things, then elect a government that will stop spending money on there violent Greater Israel project.

I'm against the settlements so I'm sure there would be some sort of saving although I'm not sure it would be as much as you think. According to this haaretz story from 2 years ago Israeli troop levels in the West Bank are at a historically low level, I doubt that there would have been much change since then http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/west-bank-sees-lowest-idf-troop-levels-since-first-intifada-1.327262

If you have any concrete figures on what proportion of Defense spending goes on the West Bank I'd be interested.

wes

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I'm against the settlements so I'm sure there would be some sort of saving although I'm not sure it would be as much as you think. According to this haaretz story from 2 years ago Israeli troop levels in the West Bank are at a historically low level, I doubt that there would have been much change since then http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/west-bank-sees-lowest-idf-troop-levels-since-first-intifada-1.327262

If you have any concrete figures on what proportion of Defense spending goes on the West Bank I'd be interested.

I don't have figures, but it isn't just defense that is spent on the settlements. Remember the Israeli government subsidies them in a big way. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the spend more money on expansion.

If, Israel stop expanding outside there borders, it would imho do more to hurt Hamas, then there various attacks on Gaza ever could. As it stands all that working with Israel get Palestinians is more violent expansion.

IMHO, Israel has made a simple choice of ongoing aggression, by expanding there settlements, and if Israel want peace, they also need to end there own aggression. Calling for Hamas to stop, but refusing to do the same is ridiculous.

fasttalkerchat

petersburg2002 wrote: »

That photo is from one of the Pro Assad Shabiha massacres in Syria. They were shot at close range. As much as I dislike what Israel is doing in Gaza, I doubt that IDF members would execute babies with a bullet to the head (as the Nazis did in Eastern Europe). But I'm sure others will suggest differently.

They had no problem following in the Nazi's footsteps up to that point, but no, I don't think the photo is from Palestine.

fasttalkerchat

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

That old chestnut :rolleyes: . I'd imagine the Israeli taxpayers would prefer that their taxes be spent on the health service rather than on defensive missile systems. I'm sure that most Israelis would prefer not to have to have conscription either.

They have no problem supporting the IDF. Let's wait on the election results to confirm that one.

Johro

Looks like preparation for a ground war so far, not sure yet. I know the excuse for this is the rockets coming from Palestine but surely the way to stop that happening is to stop expanding into Palestine territory, and to start a legitimate process discussing a Palestinian state.
I'm sure the Israeli government is aware that even if they were able to blast everybody belonging to Hamas to bits there would be queues of Palestinians ready to take their places, it's hardly an end to rocket attacks. But it'll get them re-elected alright, and isn't that what's important.
For all the scaremongering going on about Iran and its supposed nuclear capability, the real threat to peace in the Middle East is undoubtedly Israel. They have all the capabilities, and most of all, the money pouring in from Jewish supporters from all over the world, not to mention a powerful lobby in the US.
Btw, I was delighted to see Obama re-elected as US president, but after today I'm afraid that, for me, he can go f#ck himself.

Fits Morris

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Seriously someone link that to stop the later agro:P

There's a link to a video of the Sky News report on this page:

https://www.rsshog.com/a/2012-11-18/idf-cluster-bombs-on-their-way-to-be-used-in-gaza/kTlsVBFnwAv~BCm0CNDv3zq0~tIjmq3l6luRwYzJ43w_/

macco66

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

:rolleyes: If they didn't value lives at all they'd use cheap freefall bombs rather than expensive guided bombs and missiles.

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

That old chestnut :rolleyes: . I'd imagine the Israeli taxpayers would prefer that their taxes be spent on the health service rather than on defensive missile systems. I'm sure that most Israelis would prefer not to have to have conscription either.

The U.S. gives $3.6billion a year to Israel in military aid. That aid is spent on the most high tech munitions, missile systems and hardware available. This high tech military hardware is made mostly by American companies. These same companies donate massively to the political establishment, who in turn donate to the Israeli's, who in turn buy the weapons from the companies, who in turn..

See the pattern?

It makes sense to use the most expensive stuff going. It's what Eisenhower described as the military industrial complex.

thebaz

When Netanyahu was in US before election , Obama hadn't the time to meet him , Fox made a big thing about an insult to Netanyahu -
don't think Obama will back Netanyahu agressive stance - hope so, anyway - let Israel sort out their own mess , they created it

BlaasForRafa

macco66 wrote: »

The U.S. gives $3.6billion a year to Israel in military aid. That aid is spent on the most high tech munitions, missile systems and hardware available. This high tech military hardware is made mostly by American companies. These same companies donate massively to the political establishment, who in turn donate to the Israeli's, who in turn buy the weapons from the companies, who in turn..

See the pattern?

It makes sense to use the most expensive stuff going. It's what Eisenhower described as the military industrial complex.

Israel's military budget has been at between €15-16.5 million per year for the last few years which means the Israeli taxpayer is paying the vast majority of military expenditure.

Israel makes most of its own arms for the ground forces, the Merkava, Namer, Tavor etc. Where it has to buy abroad, for example fast jets, it does so from the USA and the money from the USA goes toward that and it could be said to be a subsidy to Boeing and Lockheed from the American government but I'm sure the workers in those companies don't particularly care where the money comes from. Buying from the USA is more cost effective than developing your own aviation industry. The avionics and missiles that those planes use however are mostly from indigenous Israeli companies like Elbit and Raphael.

It makes sense to use the most effective weapons available for the mission that is being carried out, thats just common sense.

BlaasForRafa

thebaz wrote: »

When Netanyahu was in US before election , Obama hadn't the time to meet him , Fox made a big thing about an insult to Netanyahu -
don't think Obama will back Netanyahu agressive stance - hope so, anyway - let Israel sort out their own mess , they created it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHEh2UzxO68

Richard Hillman

I always have to laugh at the anti-Israel mob and worked up and aggressive they get. They'd last about 5 minutes on the Gaza strip before they are kidnapped and held for ransom :pac:

Another one is that its strange is that the whole support Palestine thing seems to be sexy. When it comes to a situation like Darfur nobody gives a crap. About a 1/4 of a million dead and its just not as fashionable as Palestine. Maybe its just an anti establishment thing. Those big bad wealthy jews and the mighty USA, with the power of the media are going after poor little feeble Palestine and their lovely people. Or maybe some other underlying reason.

Seaneh

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I always have to laugh at the anti-Israel mob and worked up and aggressive they get. They'd last about 5 minutes on the Gaza strip before they are kidnapped and held for ransom :pac:

Another one is that its strange is that the whole support Palestine thing seems to be sexy. When it comes to a situation like Darfur nobody gives a crap. About a 1/4 of a million dead and its just not as fashionable as Palestine. Maybe its just an anti establishment thing. Those big bad wealthy jews and the mighty USA, with the power of the media are going after poor little feeble Palestine and their lovely people. Or maybe some other underlying reason.

Can't argue a point so change the subject?
Classic tactic when you are losing an argument.

Moronic whataboutary.

Lone Stone

I think we can all safely assume at this stage that Netanyahu the Semitic jew is in fact the Anti Christ ! We are all doomed.

fasttalkerchat

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I always have to laugh at the anti-Israel mob and worked up and aggressive they get. They'd last about 5 minutes on the Gaza strip before they are kidnapped and held for ransom :pac:

Another one is that its strange is that the whole support Palestine thing seems to be sexy. When it comes to a situation like Darfur nobody gives a crap. About a 1/4 of a million dead and its just not as fashionable as Palestine. Maybe its just an anti establishment thing. Those big bad wealthy jews and the mighty USA, with the power of the media are going after poor little feeble Palestine and their lovely people. Or maybe some other underlying reason.

I could just as easily accuse you of Islamaphobia as you could accuse me of anti-Semitism... but then we have to consider why you won't answer your own question?
Why do you support the force killing the most civilians?

fasttalkerchat

84 dead.

Nodin

Lone Stone wrote: »

I think we can all safely assume at this stage that Netanyahu the Semitic jew is in fact the Anti Christ ! We are all doomed.

An amazing contribution, bound to raise the tone. I salute you sir.

Thrill

http://rt.com/news/israel-ultimatum-hamas-offensive-028/

Israel gives Hamas 36-hours ultimatum before starting major offensive

Israel has warned Hamas it will step up its offensive in the Gaza Strip in 36 hours if they do not cease rocket fire. Israel's Finance Minister told IDF radio the time left before Israel escalates its attacks can be measured in “hours, not days.”
­
"We are at a junction," said Minister Yuval Steinitz. "Either we go toward a calm or toward a meaningful widening of the operation… including a possible move to achieve complete military decision."

The countdown begins.

Rockets fire from Gaza City

C4News

upstairs for coffee

Just my two pennies worth, with an extremely limited knowledge:

1) What is happening now between Israel and Gaza allows anti Semites the opportunity to express their hatred of the Jew but camouflage it under the guise of being a Palestinian supporter. That is not to say that all Palestinian supporters are anti semites but it certainly allows the opportunity for anti semites to crawl out of the woodwork.

2) Again remember my limited knowledge, but is what Israel is doing to Palestine, not the same as how the Nazis began their torment toward the Jews. Germany kicked Jews of their land, closed down Jewish businesses etc...Israel steal Palestinian land...?

Cheers

Leftist

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I always have to laugh at the anti-Israel mob and worked up and aggressive they get. They'd last about 5 minutes on the Gaza strip before they are kidnapped and held for ransom :pac:

Another one is that its strange is that the whole support Palestine thing seems to be sexy. When it comes to a situation like Darfur nobody gives a crap. About a 1/4 of a million dead and its just not as fashionable as Palestine. Maybe its just an anti establishment thing. Those big bad wealthy jews and the mighty USA, with the power of the media are going after poor little feeble Palestine and their lovely people. Or maybe some other underlying reason.

Quite frankly I'd rather live and work in Israel over Palestine every single day, their culture is closer to ours and they are more western friendly but what you've posted is horrible rubbish imo...

Just because palestine or Hamas may not be western friendly, it doesn't mean they are not people.
They are clearly the oppressed half of the conflict and have been for some time, that is what causes sympathy toward their situation. The serious over-proportional force used by the idf and the blockade of gaza is what people are sickened by.

I'm sure as a white person it would be easier to live in white apartheid south africa rather than the slums, and this is not much different.

As for darfur, even the simple most idiot would be aware that we have far more exposure to the israel/palestine conflict than anyone had in darfur.

Zebra3

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

That is not to say that all Palestinians are anti semites

Why would Palestinians, who are semites, be anti-semites?

Fair play to the pro-Israeli mob for ignoring all Israel's human rights' abuses, ethnic cleansing and the continued colonisation of Palestinian land which breaks international law.

Ush1

end of the road wrote: »

this whole conflict is and was over one thing, land, israel is greedy and wants all Palestinian land, at all costs, they weren't happy with what they got in 1948, they went to war in 1967 and took more, and now they want more, they won't be happy until Palestine is no more the same as hamas wants rid of israel along with a lot of countries in the middle east, israel will keep doing whatevr they want and will get away with it because their friend the US will say or do nothing about it in fear they will be accused of being anti jewish

Didn't Israel give large chunks of land back to the Arab states after the six day war?

Zebra3

Ush1 wrote: »

Didn't Israel give large chunks of land back to the Arab states after the six day war?

No.

Israel currently illegally occupies the West Bank including East Jerusalem as well the Golan Heights and of course has been starving the people of Gaza.

keithclancy

Richard Hillman wrote: »

I always have to laugh at the anti-Israel mob and worked up and aggressive they get. They'd last about 5 minutes on the Gaza strip before they are kidnapped and held for ransom :pac:

Another one is that its strange is that the whole support Palestine thing seems to be sexy. When it comes to a situation like Darfur nobody gives a crap. About a 1/4 of a million dead and its just not as fashionable as Palestine. Maybe its just an anti establishment thing. Those big bad wealthy jews and the mighty USA, with the power of the media are going after poor little feeble Palestine and their lovely people. Or maybe some other underlying reason.

Nah .. I think you'd be upset too if somebody tried to turn your town into a Park and Ride.

brimal

Zebra3 wrote: »

Why would Palestinians, who are semites, be anti-semites?

What a tired argument. Antisemitism today is the word used for hatred and discrimination towards Jews. You know this. Everyone knows this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

Zebra3 wrote: »

Fair play to the pro-Israeli mob for ignoring all Israel's human rights' abuses, ethnic cleansing and the continued colonisation of Palestinian land which breaks international law.

Fair play to the pro-Palestinian mob for ignoring Hamas' human rights abuses - torture, unlawful executions, obtaining confessions under torture, censorship and the trying of civilians in military courts which breaks international law.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/10/03/gaza-arbitrary-arrests-torture-unfair-trials

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2012/10/03/abusive-system

Ush1

Zebra3 wrote: »

No.

Israel currently illegally occupies the West Bank including East Jerusalem as well the Golan Heights and of course has been starving the people of Gaza.

Doesn't really address what I said. They did return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt did they not?

Warper

3 Israelis = 90 Palestinians. You gotta feel sorry for the poor Israelis

wes

brimal wrote: »

Fair play to the pro-Palestinian mob for ignoring Hamas' human rights abuses - torture, unlawful executions, obtaining confessions under torture, censorship and the trying of civilians in military courts which breaks international law.

Israel is not much better:
Israel: Palestinian’s Conviction Violates Freedom of Assembly
Israel: Stop Jailing People Without Charge or Trial
Israel: End Restrictions on Palestinian Residency
Israel: Anti-Boycott Bill Stifles Expression
Israel: Witnesses Say Unnecessary Lethal Force Used in Protests
Record Number of Palestinians Displaced by Demolitions as Quartet Continues to Talk
Israel: Charge or Release Al Jazeera Bureau Chief

I could keep going.

So I wonder if Human Rights Watch will suddenly be rejected as a valid source now....

brimal

wes wrote: »

Israel is not much better:
Israel: Palestinian’s Conviction Violates Freedom of Assembly
Israel: Stop Jailing People Without Charge or Trial
Israel: End Restrictions on Palestinian Residency
Israel: Anti-Boycott Bill Stifles Expression
Israel: Witnesses Say Unnecessary Lethal Force Used in Protests
Record Number of Palestinians Displaced by Demolitions as Quartet Continues to Talk
Israel: Charge or Release Al Jazeera Bureau Chief

I could keep going.

So I wonder if Human Rights Watch will suddenly be rejected as a valid source now....

So are you defending Hamas?
Because I don't see where I was defending Israel's human rights abuses.

This 'but Israel do it too!' defence is childish and tiresome.

wes

brimal wrote: »

So are you defending Hamas?

Not in the slightest.

brimal wrote: »

Because I don't see where I was defending Israel's human rights abuses.

Could have fooled me.

brimal wrote: »

This 'but Israel do it too!' defense is childish and tiresome.

You would have a point, if Israel was treated the same way as Hamas by the International community, and considering the conflict involves both Hamas and Israel, and when people raise what Hamas does, it is essentially to justify Israel's attacks.

Why 1 rule for Israel, and a different one for Hamas? Rather strange that...

I am just pointing out that Israel are no better than Hamas, and to show that Israel have a habit of Human Rights abuses, and them targeting civilians is hardly a stretch, seeing as they have done so in the past.

Also, saying Israel does it too, is valid, when people are justifying Israel attacks on the basis of what Hamas have done themselves, then surely its only fair to point, that Israel are no better themselves.

keithclancy

Isn't Israel just a big fancy halting site at end of the day ?

**i'll get me coat**

MisterEpicurus

One thing that always seems to happen with this debate is the labelling of people as Pro-Israeli, or Pro-Palestinian. This is just ridiculous. I'm not saying that for everyone on this thread but you notice it creeping its way through the thread.

Some of the Pro-Palestinians rarely acknowledge the damage done by Hamas and how they hinder the progress of true Palestinians. Equally, some Pro-Israeli folks rarely acknowledge the damage caused by Israel.

Both sides are killing civilians and yet we usually only hear about it from 1 side.

Why is it so black and white for some people? It clouds what's actually happening. Again, not speaking for everyone, it's just a theme that tends to occur.

My personal opinion is that while the state of Israel (refuse to call it a Jewish state) should be acknowledged it has committed immense crimes on the Palestinians and many posters here have a point. However, I also believe that the Palestinians should have a state as formally agreed but think that the introduction of Hamas hinders this aims progress.

As for this terrorist banter that goes around, I prefer to use the term 'act of terrorism' which is the deliberate targeting of civilians in my view. Both sides are ordering acts of terrorism so enough of this 'but but they are terrorists!!" from either sides. Forget that, condemn them both for committing acts of terrorism.

The question we must ask when civilians are killed is 'Were they deliberately targeted?' - this would help define the act rather than labelling all civilian death as resulting from acts of terrorism.

brimal

wes wrote: »

Not in the slightest.

Could have fooled me.

You rabidly defend anyone resisting against Israel. Be it Hamas, Iran, Hizbullah, etc. I guess your enemy's enemy is your friend, right?

wes wrote: »

You would have a point, if Israel was treated the same way as Hamas by the International community, and considering the conflict involves both Hamas and Israel, and when people raise what Hamas does, it is essentially to justify Israel's attacks.

Why 1 rule for Israel, and a different one for Hamas? Rather strange that...

I am just pointing out that Israel are no better than Hamas, and to show that Israel have a habit of Human Rights abuses, and them targeting civilians is hardly a stretch, seeing as they have done so in the past.

Also, saying Israel does it too, is valid, when people are justifying Israel attacks on the basis of what Hamas have done themselves, then surely its only fair to point, that Israel are no better themselves.

These reports I provided were human rights abuses on Hamas' own people. I think you will even agree that Israel's treatment of it's own people is infinitely better than Hamas' (and the rest of the Middle East for that matter)

Just to stay on topic of what we are discussing, I have a question:

Do you agree that Hamas' human rights abuses on it's own people are very rarely discussed or even acknowledged by the majority of pro-Palestinian groups?

wes

brimal wrote: »

You rabidly defend anyone resisting against Israel.

I have. Interesting claim. I could equally accuse you of defending Israel regardless of what there doing, right or wrong.

brimal wrote: »

Be it Hamas, Iran, Hizbullah, etc. I guess your enemy's enemy is your friend, right?

I have defended Hamas? I wonder when I did that.

I have defended the Palestinians, however.

As for Iran and Hezbollah. Not mentioned them in this thread at all, so I fail to see the relevance.

brimal wrote: »

These reports I provided were human rights abuses on Hamas' own people. I think you will even agree that Israel's treatment of it's own people is infinitely better than Hamas' (and the rest of the Middle East for that matter)

I have never supported Hamas at all, but the very clear hypocrisy that Hamas are to be condemned for the Human Rights abuses, while Israel is let off scott free, needs to be pointed out imho.

brimal wrote: »

Just to stay on topic of what we are discussing, I have a question:

Do you agree that Hamas' human rights abuses on it's own people are very rarely discussed or even acknowledged by the majority of pro-Palestinian groups?

What Hamas does is widely acknowledged, and very few actually defend those clowns. Lets not pretend that anyone outside of a few fringe groups do so.

However, Israels Human Rights abuses are actively denied and in many cases defended, and there are multiple examples on this thread of excuse after excuse for Israel current murderous assault on Gaza. This btw is done by numerous main steam groups in the West, including the head of governments (the US being especially loud in this regard). Organizations like Human Rights Watch are regularly condemned by supporters of Israel, and all kinds of nasty accusations etc are hurled at them, by supporters of Israel. There are in fact multiple organizations like Camera for example dedicated to doing such smearing.

I have yet to see anything equivalent in regards to Hamas to defending Hamas.

Wacker The Attacker

President Obama defended Israels right to defend itself.

I have no problem with this as long as whatever opponents Israel may have are afforded the same right to defend themselves.

Somehow, all things beingequal, I dont think the likes of Hamas are always afforded this right to the same extent

Seaneh

Ush1 wrote: »

Doesn't really address what I said. They did return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt did they not?

No, Egypt took it back.

And it's entirely unrelated to what is being talked about in this thread.

Ush1

Seaneh wrote: »

No, Egypt took it back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

After the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, Egypt reviewed the causes of its loss of the 1967 war. Issues that were identified included "the individualistic bureaucratic leadership"; "promotions on the basis of loyalty, not expertise, and the army's fear of telling Nasser the truth"; lack of intelligence; and better Israeli weapons, command, organization, and will to fight.[149]
According to Chaim Herzog:
On June 19, 1967, the National Unity Government [of Israel] voted unanimously to return the Sinai to Egypt and the Golan Heights to Syria in return for peace agreements. The Golans would have to be demilitarized and special arrangement would be negotiated for the Straits of Tiran. The government also resolved to open negotiations with King Hussein of Jordan regarding the Eastern border.[15

On November 22, 1967, the UN Security Council adopted Resolution 242, the "land for peace" formula, which called for Israeli withdrawal "from territories occupied" in 1967 and "the termination of all claims or states of belligerency." Resolution 242 recognized the right of "every state in the area to live in peace within secure and recognized boundaries free from threats or acts of force." Israel returned the Sinai to Egypt in 1978, after the Camp David Accords, and disengaged from the Gaza Strip in the summer of 2005, though its army frequently re-enters Gaza for military operations and still retains control of border crossings, seaports and airports.

In what way did Egypt take it back?

RainMaker

Seaneh wrote: »

No, Egypt took it back.

In 1979, Egypt and Israel signed a peace treaty in which Israel agreed to withdraw from the entirety of Sinai. Israel subsequently withdrew in several stages, ending in 1982...

Seaneh

They took it back by forcing the issue during the treaty discussions, Israel didn't just hand it over. They were forced to.

And again, it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand and just another example of pointless nonsensical deflection tactics from zionist shills.

Ush1

Seaneh wrote: »

They took it back by forcing the issue during the treaty discussions, Israel didn't just hand it over. They were forced to.

And again, it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand and just another example of pointless nonsensical deflection tactics from zionist shills.

In what way where they forced to? Looking at the facts it looked like they really weren't that interested in holding on to it, they simply sent the message that they could easily sweep the Egyptians aside.

I think it's quite relevant when someone commented that all they want is land.

And just to be clear, I don't favour either side in any way.

Seaneh

Ush1 wrote: »

I think it's quite relevant when someone commented that all they want is land.

All they want IS land (and control of the aquifers under it) , specifically the west bank. Their actions since 1948 are proof enough of that.

As for the Sinai, they had no desire to leave the area, they were still building settlements there as late as 1977. During the treaty discussions Egypt made it clear that without withdrawal from Sinai there could be no agreement. If they hadn't forced Israel to withdraw the Israeli's would still be there, much like they are still on Golan.

Zebra3

brimal wrote: »

Fair play to the pro-Palestinian mob for ignoring Hamas' human rights abuses - torture, unlawful executions, obtaining confessions under torture, censorship and the trying of civilians in military courts which breaks international law.

http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/10/03/gaza-arbitrary-arrests-torture-unfair-trials

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2012/10/03/abusive-system

Can you actually find evidence of anyone defending Hamas?

The same Hamas which was created by Israel to divide and conquer the Palestinians. How that chicken came home to roost....

I think what most sane people want is Israel to stop stealing Palestinian land, remove their illegal colonies, and then allow a dignified Palestinian state to come into existence.

Israel's daily crimes against the Palestinian people only bolsters support for Hamas. Just like events like Bloody Sunday were a gift to the IRA.

Ush1 wrote: »

Doesn't really address what I said. They did return the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt did they not?

Israel withdrew from occupying part of Egypt and dismantled its illegal colonies but it was a long time after the event you mentioned when it eventually happened.

Micky Dolenz

Mod

Can we please refrain from using inflammatory language, zionist shills etc.

RainMaker

Seaneh wrote: »

All they want IS land (and control of the aquifers under it) , specifically the west bank. Their actions since 1948 are proof enough of that.

As for the Sinai, they had no desire to leave the area, they were still building settlements there as late as 1977. During the treaty discussions Egypt made it clear that without withdrawal from Sinai there could be no agreement. If they hadn't forced Israel to withdraw the Israeli's would still be there, much like they are still on Golan.

They voted in 1967 to return the Golan Heights to Syria - offer was rejected by the Khartoum Resolution.

I am sure you are well aware of an Israeli tactic of reducing any criticism to "anti-Semitism" - not much different to reducing any Palestinian criticism to being the work of "Zionist shills". You can't use the tactics you criticize and expect to maintain the moral high ground.

The fact is Israel is bring overly aggressive (as usual) and Hamas in particular seem intent on antagonizing Israel and then acting surprised and shocked when the expected retaliation occurs, this happens every few years seemingly and as long as both sides keep electing extremist representatives it will continue...

"All this has happened before and all this will happen again..."

Gunnubi10

brimal wrote: »

Could have fooled me.

Just to stay on topic of what we are discussing, I have a question:

Do you agree that Hamas' human rights abuses on it's own people are very rarely discussed or even acknowledged by the majority of pro-Palestinian groups?

They are rarely discussed because Hamas hasnt violated any human rights of their people, even the big propaganda corporate media would have latched on a story like that if that was the case, Hamas is a guerilla type military wing that protects Palestinians mainly against Israel, with that said I would like you to provide a source on how Hamas violates rights of their people.

brimal

Gunnubi10 wrote: »

They are rarely discussed because Hamas hasnt violated any human rights of their people, even the big propaganda corporate media would have latched on a story like that if that was the case, Hamas is a guerilla type military wing that protects Palestinians mainly against Israel, with that said I would like you to provide a source on how Hamas violates rights of their people.

Eh... I provided two links in the post you quoted.

Ush1

Seaneh wrote: »

All they want IS land (and control of the aquifers under it) , specifically the west bank. Their actions since 1948 are proof enough of that.

As for the Sinai, they had no desire to leave the area, they were still building settlements there as late as 1977. During the treaty discussions Egypt made it clear that without withdrawal from Sinai there could be no agreement. If they hadn't forced Israel to withdraw the Israeli's would still be there, much like they are still on Golan.

I think if they really wanted to retain control they could have. Not exactly taking back the Sinai, Egypt were patently negotiating from a position of weakness.

In Israel, there is lasting support of the Camp David Peace Accords, which have become a national consensus, supported by 85% of Israelis according to a 2001 poll taken by the Jaffee Center for Strategic Studies (Israel based).[23] Nevertheless, a minority of Israelis believe the price Israel paid for the peace agreement was too high for its present gains, i.e. having relinquished the entire Sinai Peninsula, with its oil, tourism and land resources (Israel has no other oil wells), and the trauma of evacuating thousands of its Israeli inhabitants (many resisted, as in the town of Yamit and had to be forcefully evacuated, a phenomenon encountered also in the subsequent Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, known as the disengagement).I][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed"][COLOR=#0066cc]citation needed[/COLOR][/URL][/I

Most Israelis agreed with handing over the Sinai.

Ush1

Zebra3 wrote: »

Israel withdrew from occupying part of Egypt and dismantled its illegal colonies but it was a long time after the event you mentioned when it eventually happened.

Politics move slowly, that's the way it is.

The point is they gave up territories that had Israeli settlers.

Gunnubi10

RainMaker wrote: »

They voted in 1967 to return the Golan Heights to Syria - offer was rejected by the Khartoum Resolution.

I am sure you are well aware of an Israeli tactic of reducing any criticism to "anti-Semitism" - not much different to reducing any Palestinian criticism to being the work of "Zionist shills". You can't use the tactics you criticize and expect to maintain the moral high ground.

The fact is Israel is bring overly aggressive (as usual) and Hamas in particular seem intent on antagonizing Israel and then acting surprised and shocked when the expected retaliation occurs, this happens every few years seemingly and as long as both sides keep electing extremist representatives it will continue...

"All this has happened before and all this will happen again..."

Golan heights is occupied by IDF as we speak, There will always be two sides accusing each other about who is right and who is wrong but facts dont lie, Israel has long been oppressing Palestinians, A truce was negotiated and a few moments later the IDF kills a Hamas leader...for what? what did they do? its even reported that they fired and killed a teenage boy playing football, Israel has been targeting innocent civilians and justifying themselves by saying Hamas hides in schools and use these civilians as human shields! how pathetic of an explanation. The will be a ground invasion just watch, they could have done this or sent in their Mossad assassins but they want to create anger around the world by doing these killings.

one of the IDF soldiers who left the Israel army: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RYXdoipaqnY

Zebra3

Ush1 wrote: »

The point is they gave up territories that had Israeli settlers.

Wow, congrats to them on complying with international law and moving out their criminals from other people's land. :rolleyes:

I wonder where all those illegal colonists went because when Gaza was "evacuated", the number of illegal Israeli colonists in the occupied West Bank very quickly doubled in number.

So the so-called evacuation of Gaza was simply a case of moving one bunch of criminals who break international law from one part of the Occupied Palestinian territories to another part.

It was a calculated decision by the Israeli government on the cost of keeping the number of colonists in Gaza compared to the security budget needed to keep them there. Instead they decided to concentrate on flooding the West Bank so as to grab as much of its land and resources as possible.

And all the while the west turns a blind eye....

brimal

Gunnubi10 wrote: »

They are rarely discussed because Hamas hasnt violated any human rights of their people, even the big propaganda corporate media would have latched on a story like that if that was the case, Hamas is a guerilla type military wing that protects Palestinians mainly against Israel, with that said I would like you to provide a source on how Hamas violates rights of their people.

Did you read the links?

Do you honestly believe Hamas doesn't commit human rights abuses on it's people?