Isreal at war. Many comentators egging them on.

Gunnubi10

brimal wrote: »

Eh... I provided two links in the post you quoted.

Human rights watch?...ok

I will take this info with a pinch of salt, they are known(atleast to some us) of being a pro western tool that accuses anti- western regimes of human right violations.

Take this report on Syria: http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-syria

Now since HRW is your source, it says in the above article that the Syrian government kills their own people and put snipers on the roofs, this was all before rebels were acknowledged to be in Syria...now I will try to find some proof that can counter the article above.

Ush1

Zebra3 wrote: »

Wow, congrats to them on complying with international law and moving out their criminals from other people's land. :rolleyes:

I wonder where all those illegal colonists went because when Gaza was "evacuated", the number of illegal Israeli colonists in the occupied West Bank very quickly doubled in number.

So the so-called evacuation of Gaza was simply a case of moving one bunch of criminals who break international law from one part of the Occupied Palestinian territories to another part.

It was a calculated decision by the Israeli government on the cost of keeping the number of colonists in Gaza compared to the security budget needed to keep them there. Instead they decided to concentrate on flooding the West Bank so as to grab as much of its land and resources as possible.

And all the while the west turns a blind eye....

My understanding of Zionism is it is very specific areas which the Zionists want.

Rightly or wrongly the state of Israel was set up with enemies on all sides which has led to the current environment. Does anyone really think if Israel left Gaza and the West Bank alone that they would all just get along?

Seaneh

RainMaker wrote: »

Hamas in particular seem intent on antagonizing Israel and then acting surprised and shocked when the expected retaliation occurs,

Except in this case, it was Israel who antagonised Hamas when IDF soldiers entered Gaza on november 8th and engaged civilain targets, killing a teenage boy who was playing football with his friends. Previous to that there had been a lul of violence from both sides of over two weeks.

The IDF made several incursions into palestinian lads which were just tactics to bait the militants and Hamas into retaliating so that they (Israel) could play they "they fired rockets at us" card and act like victims when they were the aggressors.

Zebra3

Ush1 wrote: »

My understanding of Zionism is it is very specific areas which the Zionists want.

Nope, they're very open minded about what land they'll rob. Some planned also to take Jordan, others wanted a lot of Lebanon as well, they weren't really too bothered.

Rightly or wrongly the state of Israel was set up

Wrongly.

with enemies on all sides which has led to the current environment. Does anyone really think if Israel left Gaza and the West Bank alone that they would all just get along?

Of course they have enemies on all sides. That's what happens when you ethnically cleanse land and people have to flee in to the neighbouring countries. Is it that hard to believe that those victims of zionist crimes want their homes back?

Israel also needs to allow Palestinian refugees who were ethnically cleansed from their homes in what is now Israel to return home.

Seaneh

Gunnubi10 wrote: »

Human rights watch?...ok

I will take this info with a pinch of salt, they are known(atleast to some us) of being a pro western tool that accuses anti- western regimes of human right violations.

Take this report on Syria: http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/world-report-2012-syria

Now since HRW is your source, it says in the above article that the Syrian government kills their own people and put snipers on the roofs, this was all before rebels were acknowledged to be in Syria...now I will try to find some proof that can counter the article above.

HRW are anything but pro-israel...

wes

Ush1 wrote: »

Rightly or wrongly the state of Israel was set up with enemies on all sides which has led to the current environment. Does anyone really think if Israel left Gaza and the West Bank alone that they would all just get along?

Why not? Peace has held with Jordan and Egypt.

An offer from the entire Arab league is still on the table, and imho Israel has been very stupid to ignore the offer almost completely.

wes

Gunnubi10 wrote: »

Human rights watch?...ok

HRW are generally pretty good on this stuff in general. They are btw, not exactly fans of Israel, and are regularly attacked (along with other Human Rights orgs) for being Anti-Israel.

IMHO, there is no doubt that Hamas, are hugely oppressive to there own people.

Gunnubi10

brimal wrote: »

Eh... I provided two links in the post you quoted.

brimal wrote: »

Did you read the links?

Do you honestly believe Hamas doesn't commit human rights abuses on it's people?

So look at the big Bad Syrian army Human rights watch wants us to believe:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KR3GuKXyeHE ( Video 1)

An example of a western bought agent who talks to CNN claiming his from Syria and they are being bombed and wants western help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-DCZxsrt9I(Video 2)

Oh we cant forget the MI5,CIA,MOSSAD trained rebels who are the snipers, and killing the civilians which are later blamed on Syrian army:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiYKAoMcTHI&feature=plcp


There are more vids but I think they are too graphic to be on here.

Ush1

Zebra3 wrote: »

Nope, they're very open minded about what land they'll rob. Some planned also to take Jordan, others wanted a lot of Lebanon as well, they weren't really too bothered.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel

These are the regions true zionists are interested in.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Wrongly.

Probably but at the time a lot of people supported it and they were helped by the British empire.

Zebra3 wrote: »

Of course they have enemies on all sides. That's what happens when you ethnically cleanse land and people have to flee in to the neighbouring countries. Is it that hard to believe that those victims of zionist crimes want their homes back?

Israel also needs to allow Palestinian refugees who were ethnically cleansed from their homes in what is now Israel to return home.

There will never be peace in that region unless one side or the other are totally gone IMO.

Zebra3

wes wrote: »

Why not? Peace has held with Jordan and Egypt.

An offer from the entire Arab league is still on the table, and imho Israel has been very stupid to ignore the offer completely.

But to some zionists, why accept that offer?

Israel is getting very close to having enough illegal colonists in the occupied West Bank that they'll feel comfortable in the foreseeable future in annexing it.

Israel is a European colonial project. The mentality that comes with removing the natives from their land (like in the Americas and Australia) is a supremacist one. A lot of zionists don't feel the need to "do a deal" with what they see as a primitive race. Just listen to the racist language used by Romney on his recent visit there. Didn't exactly upset many Israelis, did it?

Ush1

wes wrote: »

Why not? Peace has held with Jordan and Egypt.

An offer from the entire Arab league is still on the table, and imho Israel has been very stupid to ignore the offer almost completely.

Because both sides think they have a right to be there. A religious right which is the most compulsive of all.

Seaneh

Ush1 wrote: »

Because both sides think they have a right to be there. A religious right which is the most compulsive of all.

Well, The PA and Hamas only want Gaza and The West Bank and right of return.


Israel Want's everything except Gaza and no right of return.

Seaneh

Ush1 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel

These are the regions true zionists are interested in.

You do realise large chunks of that area are inside countries other than Israel?
Most notably southern Lebanon...

wonderfullife

MisterEpicurus wrote: »

One thing that always seems to happen with this debate is the labelling of people as Pro-Israeli, or Pro-Palestinian. This is just ridiculous. I'm not saying that for everyone on this thread but you notice it creeping its way through the thread.

Some of the Pro-Palestinians rarely acknowledge the damage done by Hamas and how they hinder the progress of true Palestinians. Equally, some Pro-Israeli folks rarely acknowledge the damage caused by Israel.

Both sides are killing civilians and yet we usually only hear about it from 1 side.

Why is it so black and white for some people? It clouds what's actually happening. Again, not speaking for everyone, it's just a theme that tends to occur.

My personal opinion is that while the state of Israel (refuse to call it a Jewish state) should be acknowledged it has committed immense crimes on the Palestinians and many posters here have a point. However, I also believe that the Palestinians should have a state as formally agreed but think that the introduction of Hamas hinders this aims progress.

As for this terrorist banter that goes around, I prefer to use the term 'act of terrorism' which is the deliberate targeting of civilians in my view. Both sides are ordering acts of terrorism so enough of this 'but but they are terrorists!!" from either sides. Forget that, condemn them both for committing acts of terrorism.

The question we must ask when civilians are killed is 'Were they deliberately targeted?' - this would help define the act rather than labelling all civilian death as resulting from acts of terrorism.

There's a reason we hear about it from one side. It's coming mostly from one side.

For me, the most revealing news report of the week was when they showed some Israelis on a beach and the rocket-alarm warning went off, they all hid behind a wall at the beach front and cheered when the rocket was shot down. They then cut back to the Palestine side and showed pure destruction.

This isn't a war, it's not self-defence, it's pure carnage and murderous behaviour. Israel knows well most of the Hamas leadership are under bunkers, they really don't care who they kill, just bomb a heap of "targets", flatten the place and claim someone from Hamas was in the vicinity. Scum.

Zebra3

Ush1 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_Israel

These are the regions true zionists are interested in.

It is very debatable what a true zionist is.

One of their terrorist groups wanted to claim all of what is now modern day Jordan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Irgun_poster_Erez_Jisrael.jpg

Local-womanizer

wonderfullife wrote: »

There's a reason we hear about it from one side. It's coming mostly from one side.

For me, the most revealing news report of the week was when they showed some Israelis on a beach and the rocket-alarm warning went off, they all hid behind a wall at the beach front and cheered when the rocket was shot down. They then cut back to the Palestine side and showed pure destruction.

This isn't a war, it's not self-defence, it's pure carnage and murderous behaviour. Israel knows well most of the Hamas leadership are under bunkers, they really don't care who they kill, just bomb a heap of "targets", flatten the place and claim someone from Hamas was in the vicinity. Scum.

It's obvious that hama's weapon systems are not as advanced as the Israelis but they still kill and create fear.

The footage that stuck with me was a female member of the IDF in a tent crying after a Hamas rocket attack, then going hysterical as more rockets came in. They were shot down but the fear was still present.

The next scene they should was a residential building that was hit, killing 3 Israeli civilians.

The Israelis will never give back any land and the Palestinians will achieve nothing with their current tactics.

What they need to do is adopt a completely peaceful process if they have any hope of achieving anything.

If they are seen to be the absolute victims, that is trying to or being engaged in talks, not firing rockets at Israel then they may have a chance. If Israel are still killing civilians then public support will eventually turn completely against Israel.

Firing rockets into Israel is doing absolutely nothing for their cause, only prolonging the suffering of the people there.

wonderfullife

Local-womanizer wrote: »

It's obvious that hama's weapon systems are not as advanced as the Israelis but they still kill and create fear.

The footage that stuck with me was a female member of the IDF in a tent crying after a Hamas rocket attack, then going hysterical as more rockets came in. They were shot down but the fear was still present.

The next scene they should was a residential building that was hit, killing 3 Israeli civilians.

The Israelis will never give back any land and the Palestinians will achieve nothing with their current tactics.

What they need to do is adopt a completely peaceful process if they have any hope of achieving anything.

If they are seen to be the absolute victims, that is trying to or being engaged in talks, not firing rockets at Israel then they may have a chance. If Israel are still killing civilians then public support will eventually turn completely against Israel.

Firing rockets into Israel is doing absolutely nothing for their cause, only prolonging the suffering of the people there.

If that's the scene that stuck with you then it's a worrying minority mindset. A female IDF member worried about rockets which have inflicted minimal damage and casualties versus a whole city being flattened.

According to BBC today: "Ninety-four Palestinians and three Israelis have died since Wednesday. They include nine members of a Gaza family apparently killed by mistake."

Yes, we can all agree that the rocket attacks serve little purpose. It really is like those old western movies with the Native Indians with their bow and arrows against the Cowboys with their guns. They can't "win", though as you say they can't win whether they fire the rockets or not.

But you are aware that saying the rocket attacks should cease is effectively saying "you have no right to defend yourself." It's always one rule for Israel and one for Palestine.

As for "public support" turning against Israel it's long gone past that. You still have a tiny minority globally (beyond the USA i mean) willing to try justify their actions, beyond that they have no support.

Local-womanizer

wonderfullife wrote: »

If that's the scene that stuck with you then it's a worrying minority mindset. A female IDF member worried about rockets which have inflicted minimal damage and casualties versus a whole city being flattened.

According to BBC today: "Ninety-four Palestinians and three Israelis have died since Wednesday. They include nine members of a Gaza family apparently killed by mistake."

Yes, we can all agree that the rocket attacks serve little purpose. It really is like those old western movies with the Native Indians with their bow and arrows against the Cowboys with their guns. They can't "win", though as you say they can't win whether they fire the rockets or not.

But you are aware that saying the rocket attacks should cease is effectively saying "you have no right to defend yourself." It's always one rule for Israel and one for Palestine.

As for "public support" turning against Israel it's long gone past that. You still have a tiny minority globally (beyond the USA i mean) willing to try justify their actions, beyond that they have no support.

That wasn't my point, if someone throws a rock at me I don't think "sure it's a rudimentary, basic weapon so I won't be worried about it" its still effective and it will still hurt. It's not a worrying mindset, I never dismissed the atrocities the Israelis have committed. It's tragic when civilians on either side are killed.

I said they can't win by firing rockets into Israel, no way in hell. What I was trying to get across is they will always lose by doing this, actually it's the civilians that lose.

If they have any chance of overwhelming international support, which at the moment, it's a strange thing in that people are appalled at Israel's response, but it is that too, a response to rocket attacks, or in the past,kidnapping and suicide bombers. This will always leave that little bit of wriggle room that is saying well they shouldn't just sit there and let this happen.

Hamas will never effect a military defeat on Israel, they need to sit back and any time Israel bomb or shoot civilians then there is no doubt who the absolute victim is.

What they are doing now, regardless of Israelis actions, is not defending their people, it's the opposite.

RainMaker

wonderfullife wrote: »

But you are aware that saying the rocket attacks should cease is effectively saying "you have no right to defend yourself." It's always one rule for Israel and one for Palestine.

As for "public support" turning against Israel it's long gone past that. You still have a tiny minority globally (beyond the USA i mean) willing to try justify their actions, beyond that they have no support.

Firing rockets into a civilian area can hardly be considered "defending yourself" - it's an act of aggression when Israel does it and it's an act of aggression when Palestine does the same.

I don't think anybody is really defending Israel's actions, but they are defending Israel's right to exist and defend itself which is quite different - and something which some people on here just don't seem to accept at all.

wonderfullife

Local-womanizer wrote: »

That wasn't my point, if someone throws a rock at me I don't think "sure it's a rudimentary, basic weapon so I won't be worried about it" its still effective and it will still hurt. It's not a worrying mindset, I never dismissed the atrocities the Israelis have committed. It's tragic when civilians on either side are killed.

I said they can't win by firing rockets into Israel, no way in hell. What I was trying to get across is they will always lose by doing this, actually it's the civilians that lose.

If they have any chance of overwhelming international support, which at the moment, it's a strange thing in that people are appalled at Israel's response, but it is that too, a response to rocket attacks, or in the past,kidnapping and suicide bombers. This will always leave that little bit of wriggle room that is saying well they shouldn't just sit there and let this happen.

Hamas will never effect a military defeat on Israel, they need to sit back and any time Israel bomb or shoot civilians then there is no doubt who the absolute victim is.

What they are doing now, regardless of Israelis actions, is not defending their people, it's the opposite.

There have been numerous accounts overnight from many journalists that no rockets were fired.

Freelance journalist Jesse Rosenfeld tweets: Israel says rocket fire must stop before a cease fire. Yet this side of the border was quiet last night while bombardment of #Gaza continued

Yet Israel targeted 80 sites overnight.

Bottom line even if the rocket attacks cease, Israel will not stop until an official ceasefire is announced. They have a window now to inflict maximum damage and they will take it regardless of rockets incoming.

wonderfullife

RainMaker wrote: »

Firing rockets into a civilian area can hardly be considered "defending yourself" - it's an act of aggression when Israel does it and it's an act of aggression when Palestine does the same.

I don't think anybody is really defending Israel's actions, but they are defending Israel's right to exist and defend itself which is quite different - and something which some people on here just don't seem to accept at all.

It's not though. America and Israel view it as a right to self defence, not an act of aggression. Rocket attacks = aggression, flattening a city = self defence.

Ariel Sharons son came out today and made an analogy between this conflict and WW2 and he said basically that the Americans did not stop after Hiroshima, they went on to bomb Nagasaki, and Israel should take the same approach and flatten the whole of Gaza now once and for all.

Seaneh

wonderfullife wrote: »

There have been numerous accounts overnight from many journalists that no rockets were fired.

Freelance journalist Jesse Rosenfeld tweets: Israel says rocket fire must stop before a cease fire. Yet this side of the border was quiet last night while bombardment of #Gaza continued

Yet Israel targeted 80 sites overnight.

Bottom line even if the rocket attacks cease, Israel will not stop until an official ceasefire is announced. They have a window now to inflict maximum damage and they will take it regardless of rockets incoming.

Exactly.

When you have cabinet ministers publicly saying things like the below, it's obvious that Israel are just using any excuse they can to suppress Gaza ahead of the general election.

"the goal of the operation is to send Gaza back to the Middle Ages". "Only then will Israel be calm for 40 years,"

-interior minister Eli Yishai

Link here to Haaretz.com

Local-womanizer

wonderfullife wrote: »

There have been numerous accounts overnight from many journalists that no rockets were fired.

Freelance journalist Jesse Rosenfeld tweets: Israel says rocket fire must stop before a cease fire. Yet this side of the border was quiet last night while bombardment of #Gaza continued

Yet Israel targeted 80 sites overnight.

Bottom line even if the rocket attacks cease, Israel will not stop until an official ceasefire is announced. They have a window now to inflict maximum damage and they will take it regardless of rockets incoming.

I am not just talking about right now, after the conflict has escalated. Hamas have fired rockets at Israel, this is pointless. It will achieve nothing only more pain for the civilians in both countries.

The Palestinians need to stop any attacks, no matter what Israel do. Only then will they get the absolute support the world over.

But as long as they do keep carrying out attacks, there is always that justification, albeit slight, that Israel can continue doing what they do.

I can see that some people can have this view on the situation, I don't agree with it but I can understand why people back Israel's actions.

Seaneh wrote: »

Exactly.

When you have cabinet ministers publicly saying things like the below, it's obvious that Israel are just using any excuse they can to suppress Gaza ahead of the general election.



Link here to Haaretz.com

It is disgusting, how certain government ministers view the people of Gaza.

These are the kind of things those in Hamas should be focusing on to garner support internationally, instead they will continue to fire rockets into Israel, which will only bolster this ministers xenophobic views, and the views of those who agree with him.

Hamas have it in their Statute book its pledge to wipe out Israel.

When such attitudes exist on both sides, only more civilians will be killed.

Seaneh

Local-womanizer wrote: »

Hamas have it in their Statute book its pledge to wipe out Israel.

They removed that from their manifesto before the 2006 elections.

So that's not an issue any more.

Zebra3

wonderfullife wrote: »

It's not though. America and Israel view it as a right to self defence, not an act of aggression. Rocket attacks = aggression, flattening a city = self defence.

Ariel Sharons son came out today and made an analogy between this conflict and WW2 and he said basically that the Americans did not stop after Hiroshima, they went on to bomb Nagasaki, and Israel should take the same approach and flatten the whole of Gaza now once and for all.

It would have been a more accurate analogy if he compared Israel's occupation and colonialisation of other people's land with how Germany carried out the same act during WWII.

Did he also mention how his war criminal father is?

RainMaker

Seaneh wrote: »

They removed that from their manifesto before the 2006 elections.

So that's not an issue any more.

It is still an issue as it's still part of their charter - which also quotes the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" - a known forgery used across Europe for the last couple of centuries as an excuse to persecute Jews!

They DID remove it from their most recent election platform, but it's still there in there charter alright and according to Hamas themselves "cannot be changed for internal reasons." - So as long as Hamas themselves exist that charter will exist in it's current form and give Israel a reason not to negotiate with Hamas if they ever need one.

wes

Zebra3 wrote: »

But to some zionists, why accept that offer?

They didn't even take it seriously, or discuss it at all. I don't expect them to accept it out right, but to almost completely ignore it, is pretty damning in regards to Israel's desire for peace.

wes

Ush1 wrote: »

Because both sides think they have a right to be there. A religious right which is the most compulsive of all.

Ok, but that isn't everyone. Take a look at the leaked Palestine papers, and we see the Palestinian leadership making a great effort to make peace, and couple that with the arab peace initiative, and we have at least some change of peace. What happened was that Israel just dismissed these serious attempts by the other side to make peace.

brimal

Seaneh wrote: »

They removed that from their manifesto before the 2006 elections.

So that's not an issue any more.

That's extremely naive to think Hamas' anti-Israeli and anti-Jew mindset and rhetoric will disappear just like that.

What about the anti-Jew stuff in their charter? They claim they can't remove it due to 'internal reasons'.

EDIT: RainMaker beat me to it. You are seriously delusional if you don't think Hamas are inherently anti-Jew

Seaneh

brimal wrote: »

That's extremely naive to think Hamas' anti-Israeli and anti-Jew mindset and rhetoric will disappear just like that.

What about the anti-Jew stuff in their charter? They claim they can't remove it due to 'internal reasons'.

EDIT: RainMaker beat me to it. You are seriously delusional if you don't think Hamas are inherently anti-Jew

People said the same things about the IRA and Sinn Fein in the 80's and early 90's with regards to accepting devolution.

brimal

Seaneh wrote: »

People said the same things about the IRA and Sinn Fein in the 80's and early 90's with regards to accepting devolution.

That's good to know, but it has nothing to do with this conflict.

Zebra3

brimal wrote: »

That's extremely naive to think Hamas' anti-Israeli and anti-Jew mindset and rhetoric will disappear just like that.

What about the anti-Jew stuff in their charter? They claim they can't remove it due to 'internal reasons'.

EDIT: RainMaker beat me to it. You are seriously delusional if you don't think Hamas are inherently anti-Jew

How could the Palestinians trust the zionists with any peace deal after their decades of hate against the native population? Ethnically cleansing them from their homes, starving them in Gaza, treating them like subhumans.....

intellectual dosser

Local-womanizer wrote: »

The Palestinians need to stop any attacks, no matter what Israel do. Only then will they get the absolute support the world over.

What support is that? Sometimes its the Palestinians firing rockets that sparks things, other times its Israel claiming more land that is not theirs. The world does nothing.

Even if Palestinians didn't fire rockets I'm one who believes it's only a matter of time before Israel moves to take more land. Do you think the world/UN would then move to reclaim that land for the Palestinians?

Ush1

Seaneh wrote: »

Well, The PA and Hamas only want Gaza and The West Bank and right of return.


Israel Want's everything except Gaza and no right of return.

I think many of Hamas want rid of Israel altogether(somewhat understandably).

brimal

Zebra3 wrote: »

How could the Palestinians trust the zionists with any peace deal after their decades of hate against the native population? Ethnically cleansing them from their homes, starving them in Gaza, treating them like subhumans.....

Are we talking about Hamas or Palestinians here? I'm saying Hamas has antisemitism (or anti-Jew as you pedantically don't like using antisemitism exclusively for Jews) running through it's core. It is inherently anti-Jew, and refuses to remove anti-Jew statements from it's charter.

It almost sounds like you are defending Hamas' position on Jews.

Ush1

Seaneh wrote: »

You do realise large chunks of that area are inside countries other than Israel?
Most notably southern Lebanon...

Yes but not Sinai Peninsula.

RainMaker

Zebra3 wrote: »

How could the Palestinians trust the zionists with any peace deal after their decades of hate against the native population? Ethnically cleansing them from their homes, starving them in Gaza, treating them like subhumans.....

How could Zionists trust a people who's stated aim is to wipe them off the map?

Seriously though - if we can go around in circles like this arguing, imagine what it's like between the actual Israeli and Palestinian delegations?? They would spend a week arguing over the shape of the table to have the peace talks at!

Local-womanizer

intellectual dosser wrote: »

What support is that? Sometimes its the Palestinians firing rockets that sparks things, other times its Israel claiming more land that is not theirs. The world does nothing.

Even if Palestinians didn't fire rockets I'm one who believes it's only a matter of time before Israel moves to take more land. Do you think the world/UN would then move to reclaim that land for the Palestinians?

My point is Israel always have their justification to bomb Gaza. I still think its wrong but many people agree they have a right to strike back.

If Israel want land, they will take it. The rocket attacks are in no way a deterrent to the Israelis.

Honestly, I think the world would. Israel don't just go in and take land but usually end up killing innocent civilians in the process. The way things are at the moment people just come to the conclusion that this is the unfortunate part of a war in a confined arena that is Gaza. Add to that that Hamas use civilian centres as bases for attacks. Neither side has clean hands.

If they went in, with you provocation from Hamas and starting killing civilians, then attitudes would change. I am under no illusions that the conflict would be sorted out in a week but if Hamas keep firing rockets, sending suicide bombers etc they are just going down a dead end.

Do you honestly think that what Hamas is doing and has been doing is the most productive way forward? All this tit for tat fighting is only prolonging the conflict.

Peace is a slow process at the best of times but the way things are now, both sides are not delaying peace but outright denying it.

Zebra3

brimal wrote: »

Are we talking about Hamas or Palestinians here? I'm saying Hamas has antisemitism (or anti-Jew as you pedantically don't like using antisemitism exclusively for Jews) running through it's core. It is inherently anti-Jew, and refuses to remove anti-Jew statements from it's charter.

It almost sounds like you are defending Hamas' position on Jews.

Does Hamas hate jews or does it hate the people who have stolen their land who happen to be jewish?

RainMaker wrote: »

How could Zionists trust a people who's stated aim is to wipe them off the map?

Strange how nobody ever mentions how the zionists have wiped Palestine off the map. :rolleyes:

The zionists never expected to be able to steal so much land without the natives putting up a fight.

intellectual dosser

Local-womanizer wrote: »

My point is Israel always have their justification to bomb Gaza. I still think its wrong but many people agree they have a right to strike back.

If Israel want land, they will take it. The rocket attacks are in no way a deterrent to the Israelis.

Honestly, I think the world would. Israel don't just go in and take land but usually end up killing innocent civilians in the process. The way things are at the moment people just come to the conclusion that this is the unfortunate part of a war in a confined arena that is Gaza. Add to that that Hamas use civilian centres as bases for attacks. Neither side has clean hands.

If they went in, with you provocation from Hamas and starting killing civilians, then attitudes would change. I am under no illusions that the conflict would be sorted out in a week but if Hamas keep firing rockets, sending suicide bombers etc they are just going down a dead end.

Do you honestly think that what Hamas is doing and has been doing is the most productive way forward? All this tit for tat fighting is only prolonging the conflict.

Peace is a slow process at the best of times but the way things are now, both sides are not delaying peace but outright denying it.

I can see what you mean, but I honestly don't think Israel would pay any heed to the world. They see it all as their spiritual homeland and it would require force to remove them if they invaded further Palestinian territory even without provocation.

World leaders need to grow some balls and grab this conflict by the horns.

I firmly believe Iran are going to play a big part in this in the future if it continues. Maybe Israel should take your advice - to not be the ones acting the menace and not giving Iran an excuse.

glenkeeran

I worked in Southern Europe for a few yrs and had the pleasure/misery of trying to do some business with Jewish people... If i was to make the comparison of them and the manner of the Jews in Isreal well then god love the Palastinians.

Nodin

glenkeeran wrote: »

I worked in Southern Europe for a few yrs and had the pleasure/misery of trying to do some business with Jewish people... If i was to make the comparison of them and the manner of the Jews in Isreal well then good love the Palastinians.

Yep. All Jews are the exact same. Rumour has it if you kick one in the shin, they all yelp with pain.

Local-womanizer

intellectual dosser wrote: »

I can see what you mean, but I honestly don't think Israel would pay any heed to the world. They see it all as their spiritual homeland and it would require force to remove them if they invaded further Palestinian territory even without provocation.

World leaders need to grow some balls and grab this conflict by the horns.

I firmly believe Iran are going to play a big part in this in the future if it continues. Maybe Israel should take your advice - to not be the ones acting the menace and not giving Iran an excuse.

Yup, I can see where you are coming from too.

It wouldn't be an immediate solution, but as I have pointed out, they must pay some heed, if they wanted they could take any land now.

They need to be isolated financially by America or have that threat hanging over them for them to truly stop what they are at, but as long as Hamas keep firing rockets they always have that excuse to carry on doing what they do.

glenkeeran

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. All Jews are the exact same. Rumour has it if you kick one in the shin, they all yelp with pain.

No Nodin,

I never said they were all the same but i assure you there is no love for the jewish people in southern Europe and to be honest i dealt with many jews and making a kick in the shin might work.

IceFjoem

glenkeeran wrote: »

No Nodin,

I never said they were all the same but i assure you there is no love for the jewish people in southern Europe and to be honest i dealt with many jews and making a kick in the shin might work.

You have selected: racism.

HavingCrack

glenkeeran wrote: »

I worked in Southern Europe for a few yrs and had the pleasure/misery of trying to do some business with Jewish people... If i was to make the comparison of them and the manner of the Jews in Isreal well then god love the Palastinians.

Ah yes, so you worked with some people who happened to share a religion from various countries and lumped them all in together.....hmmmmm do you make similar statements about all the Catholics/Protestants/Muslims you dealt with?

Zebra3

IceFjoem wrote: »

You have selected: racism.

It's not racism, it's sectarianism.

Run_to_da_hills

Turkey's Erdogan Labels Israel a 'Terrorist State'

IceFjoem

Zebra3 wrote: »

It's not racism, it's sectarianism.

While the Jews belong to the religion of Judaism, they also belong to their own ethnic group, so both apply really.

shedweller

What do we call what the israelis are doing to the palestinians?