Isreal at war. Many comentators egging them on.

Jelle1880

shedweller wrote: »

That kind of thing happens all over the world.

I highly doubt that.

upstairs for coffee

Jews/Israel creating their own form of holocaust against the Palestinians?

Leftist

speedboatchase wrote: »

Remember pro-Palestinian forum posters, just pretend like the execution of six so-called 'informants' and the subsequent dragging of a trouserless corpse through the streets of Gaza yesterday didn't happen. Might hurt the sympathetic infantalisation of Palestinians PR campaign, eh?

again, critisism of idf is lazily equated to support for hamas, why?

it's pathetic.

and what you're doing is deliberatly dehumanising the palestinians. It's
disgusting bull****.

There was people like you taking the same stance about south africa and the anc. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Andy!!

GeorgeClooney wrote: »

Good! Hopefully they'll keep it that way. Palestinians are Arab. Arabs come from Saudi Arabia. They are trespassing on the Zionists' soil for too long now and should piss off back to Saudi ARABia.


LONG LIVE ISRAEL!

I think you need to re-take remedial History, troll.

speedboatchase

Leftist wrote: »

again, critisism of idf is lazily equated to support for hamas, why?

it's pathetic.

and what you're doing is deliberatly dehumanising the palestinians. It's
disgusting bull****.

There was people like you taking the same stance about south africa and the anc. You should be ashamed of yourself.

And you equating my post to Apartheid support isn't offensive? There's been lots of Hamas support in this thread and complete silence over the shootings yesterday, it should be discussed. That was the point of my post.

Debator

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. Genetically, ethnically and culturally Palestinians are the same as all the other Arabs. All the "Palestinians" in Gaza should move to Egypt, all the ones in the West Bank move to Jordan and Syria. Problem solved.

Or they could avail of the third, and most appealing, option: accept Israeli rule and benefit from living in a first world country which contributes to world medicine, science and technological advances. Meanwhile, the Palestinians benefit mankind because...um, uh...hmmm......

GalwayGuy2

Or they could avail of the third, and most appealing, option: accept Israeli rule and benefit from living in a first world country which contributes to world medicine, science and technological advances. Meanwhile, the Palestinians benefit mankind because...um, uh...hmmm......

Hmm, would Israeli government accept Palestinians as Israeli?

Jelle1880

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

Jews/Israel creating their own form of holocaust against the Palestinians?

Waging a war on a population does not equal to genocide.

Debator

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Hmm, would Israeli government accept Palestinians as Israeli?

20% of the Israeli population is already Arab. So yes.

Debator

upstairs for coffee wrote: »

Jews/Israel creating their own form of holocaust against the Palestinians?

Absolutely shocking and disturbing comparison. You are trivializing the Holocaust in which 6 million Jews died. Israel is currently defending itself from Hamas rocket attacks on its civilian population. Thanks to the Iron Dome defence system and precise air strikes on terrorist targets, they have been relatively successful so far. How exactly is this comparable to the Holocaust? Explain yourself - I'm not letting you away with this one.

keith16

Debator wrote: »

Absolutely shocking and disturbing comparison. You are trivializing the Holocaust in which 6 million Jews died. Israel is currently defending itself from Hamas rocket attacks on its civilian population. Thanks to the Iron Dome defence system and precise air strikes on terrorist targets, they have been relatively successful so far. How exactly is this comparable to the Holocaust? Explain yourself - I'm not letting you away with this one.

Precise? So they are deliberately targeting women and children?

humanji

Debator wrote: »

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. Genetically, ethnically and culturally Palestinians are the same as all the other Arabs. All the "Palestinians" in Gaza should move to Egypt, all the ones in the West Bank move to Jordan and Syria. Problem solved.

Or they could avail of the third, and most appealing, option: accept Israeli rule and benefit from living in a first world country which contributes to world medicine, science and technological advances. Meanwhile, the Palestinians benefit mankind because...um, uh...hmmm......

Do you mind giving us your home address? I want to live there now. Don't worry, you can live in the shed. After all, how have you benefited mankind?

Debator

keith16 wrote: »

Precise? So they are deliberately targeting women and children?

Honestly tired of replying to the same worn-out argument. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is like a broken record.

1: Hamas terrorists store ammunition in and operate from schools and family homes.

2: When Israel targets these terrorists, civilians will also be caught up in the attack.

3: Hamas can now blame Israel for the civilian deaths, thereby winning another notch in the propaganda war which middle class hippies in Ireland lap-up like gullible fools.

Basically Hamas exploits the death of their own people to win points. Pretty disgusting stuff.

barbiegirl

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Waging a war on a population does not equal to genocide.

Forcing them into ghettos, killing men, women and children indiscriminately, denying them their basic human rights of health, education and freedom of movement, stealing their land, homes and businesses that does equal ethnic cleansing and as the numbers of dead add up, genocide.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html every death is a tragedy on both sides but don't assume that people are stupid or bigoted because we can see history repeat itself and we refuse to be silenced.

karma_

speedboatchase wrote: »

And you equating my post to Apartheid support isn't offensive? There's been lots of Hamas support in this thread and complete silence over the shootings yesterday, it should be discussed. That was the point of my post.

There is NO support for Hamas in this thread or any other. The ONE party in this whole tragedy who bears the lions share of the suffering is the ordinary Palestinian. Yet you and others who take your stance never utter a single word of sympathy for them.

Leftist

Debator wrote: »

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. Genetically, ethnically and culturally Palestinians are the same as all the other Arabs. All the "Palestinians" in Gaza should move to Egypt, all the ones in the West Bank move to Jordan and Syria. Problem solved.

Racism.
Denegrading their right to their self governance based on racial profile.

Debator wrote: »

Or they could avail of the third, and most appealing, option: accept Israeli rule and benefit from living in a first world country which contributes to world medicine, science and technological advances. Meanwhile, the Palestinians benefit mankind because...um, uh...hmmm......

back to the 'They are unworthy' argument.

A) they are a seperate race
that is unworthy in comparison to the israelis

Racism. Plain and simple.

Vile.

The 21st century's apartheid South Africa.

Debator

Leftist wrote: »

The 21st century's apartheid South Africa.

Yet another laughably hysterical post with repeated cries of "wascism". The Left are becoming a parody of themselves. Sorry to disappoint you, but comparisons between Israel and apartheid South Africa hold no water. Arab Israelis enjoy full citizens' rights such as voting and representation in government. Blacks in apartheid South Africa did not. Arabs attend Israeli universities, can work in any job they are deemed capable of, and I don't see any separate toilets for Arabs and Jews as was the case with blacks and whites in apartheid South Africa.

In fact, the constant flawed comparisons between Israel and apartheid SA trivializes the suffering of black South Africans. Ditto for the extremely offensive and distasteful "ZioNazi" comparisons.

The occupied territories are a separate matter as they are not part of Israel. If Israel were to grant the Palestinians living there full citizenship and the accompanying rights, it would be akin to annexing the territory and the IPSC brigade would be up in arms.

So please explain again how Israeli is like apartheid SA.

Wibbs

GeorgeClooney wrote: »

Palestinians are Arab. Arabs come from Saudi Arabia. They are trespassing on the Zionists' soil for too long now and should piss off back to Saudi ARABia.

Debator wrote: »

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. Genetically, ethnically and culturally Palestinians are the same as all the other Arabs.

The Israeli's are "Arabs" too. With an admixture of European genetics from their long history in the place. As for either people's being ethnically and culturally the same, eh no. Outside of religion - and there are pretty large variations there - there are all sorts of factions in both Abrahamic faiths(though both like to think they're definitely Muslim or definitely Jewish) - there are many cultures in both.

Take Jews as an example. Many when thinking on the word conjure up a picture of central European Jews(ironically the anti Semite picture), but they're but one part of the whole. I had mates growing up who were Irish Jews and they were as far apart from the blokes with the black clad, wispy beards, funny hats and ringlets get up as it was possible to be. As far away as the majority Irish people reading this. Well they would be being Irish. They've been here long enough. Many Israeli born Jews are far away from them too. More "European" and far less right wing and insular(and a lot less observant). There are Arab Jews, even African Jews, never mind the rest of the Jewish diaspora out there, all with distinct cultures loosely, or tightly based around the culture they're from. "Arabs"? There are Christian Arabs and even Zoroastrian Arabs as well as Muslim and the Muslim Arabs might be Shiite or Sunni, or Sufi, or... That's before you get to culture and the differences there. Maybe the simple, regardless of who they support require the simplistic pictures of good guys/bad guys, white hats/black hats, but it's significantly more complex a picture than that.

All the "Palestinians" in Gaza should move to Egypt, all the ones in the West Bank move to Jordan and Syria. Problem solved.

While Israel has been a landgrabber and often a bloody murderous one, the other Arab states haven't always been too great in their dealings with the Palestinians either. Again it's a complex issue

Or they could avail of the third, and most appealing, option: accept Israeli rule and benefit from living in a first world country which contributes to world medicine, science and technological advances. Meanwhile, the Palestinians benefit mankind because...um, uh...hmmm......

*Godwin alert* Germany in the run up to WW2 was one of the most advanced nations on the planet, driving medicine, science and technology to arguably an even bigger degree. A first world country and no mistake, with commercial and cultural ties with the rest of the first world. They had a health service and infrastructure than many European states at the time could only dream of. Shít they even had a daily TV broadcast, banned vivisection, recognised the dangers of tobacco and brought in the first anti smoking legislation. The list is long. Didn't stop them being utter bastards in other areas. And how were the poor bootless Jews in various Ghettos throughout Europe "benefiting mankind"? Indeed.

Go further back and to our own patch of this planet. How were the primitive barely educated Irish peasant farmers dying in ditches from hunger "benefiting mankind"? Sure they should have accepted British rule and benefitted from living in a first world country and empire which contributed to world medicine, science and technological advances. Oh wait...

TL;DR? Read more, absorb more of the nuances, have a bit of a thinkipoo, then come back to the table suitably intellectually refreshed, with a fuller stomach of knowledge and insight rather than an empty belly of ignorance and jingoism. On both sides.

karma_

Debator wrote: »

Absolutely shocking and disturbing comparison. You are trivializing the Holocaust in which 6 million Jews died. Israel is currently defending itself from Hamas rocket attacks on its civilian population. Thanks to the Iron Dome defence system and precise air strikes on terrorist targets, they have been relatively successful so far. How exactly is this comparable to the Holocaust? Explain yourself - I'm not letting you away with this one.

I'll give you a hint, Warsaw ghetto.

By the way, you just about covered every single trope associated with the Israel/Palestine conflict in one paragraph, well done.

Run_to_da_hills

Reports from Gaza have Israel dropping leaflets advising residents to evacuate their homes and, using specific roads, make their way to Gaza City Centre,

Didn't the Nazi's do this to the Jews when rounding them up at the ghettos?.

They say that the history book on the shelf is the one that is repeated.

http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-is-dropping-leaflets-telling-gazans-to-evacuate-their-homes-and-gather-in-city-center-2012-11

upstairs for coffee

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Waging a war on a population does not equal to genocide.

Debator wrote: »

Absolutely shocking and disturbing comparison. You are trivializing the Holocaust in which 6 million Jews died. Israel is currently defending itself from Hamas rocket attacks on its civilian population. Thanks to the Iron Dome defence system and precise air strikes on terrorist targets, they have been relatively successful so far. How exactly is this comparable to the Holocaust? Explain yourself - I'm not letting you away with this one.

Israel take Palestine land and build settlements. Germans took Jewish land and business and threw them out. That was the beginning of the holocaust, no?

Israel see land as their holy right and don't want Palestinians in it, Nazis saw Germany as a land for only a certain race of people.

Also if you look back at my earlier posts, you will see that I have acknowledged to having a lack of knowledge and information about the subject, so I was merely asking the question as to me the similarities are there.

No offence meant.

wes

Debator wrote: »

There is no such thing as a Palestinian. Genetically, ethnically and culturally Palestinians are the same as all the other Arabs. All the "Palestinians" in Gaza should move to Egypt, all the ones in the West Bank move to Jordan and Syria. Problem solved.

You would be completely wrong:
Jews Are The Genetic Brothers Of Palestinians, Syrians, And Lebanese

There genetically very closely related in a lot of cases.

seamus

What I find interesting in this debate is that any kind of sentiment which even slightly suggests that Israel might not be in the right, has some people literally bouncing up and down and raging about supporting terrorism and Palestinian propaganda.

The whole thing is a fncking mess. Israel should never have existed. The UN fncked up and allowed it to. Neither side are covered in glory here. They are both equally guilty of horrific acts of genocide, attacking innocent civilians, ignoring well-established rules of war, and whole pile of other unjustifiable atrocities.

Unfortunately it's too late now to just reverse what's been done. Israel has been independent for long enough now that forcing them to give up the land that was stolen in order to establish their country is unfair on those Israelis who have been born and lived on that land - i.e. those Israelis who have done no wrong. It would no more valid than forcing protestants to give up their land in NI and go back to scotland.

Israel wants nothing more than to wipe Palestine off the map. They've no real interest in peace - continuing war allows them to justify their evictions and attacks and reach their ultimate goal of liberating the land for themselves without any pesky Palestinians in the way.
Palestine likewise only wants the end of Israel. They see the country as their land which has been stolen and will be unhappy with any outcome that doesn't result in this aim.

As far as both sides are concerned, they're both protecting themselves and fighting for their rights. Who started it, who fired first, etc is all irrelevant at this stage. What we have is two enemies with mutually incompatible goals and the entire situation can't be resolved until those goals are either changed or removed.

One possibility is to force UN intervention. Suggest the possibility of a unified Israeli/Palestinian state, with a constitution that guarantees the protection of religious freedom within the state. Then hold free elections and provide 30 years of UN military support to protect the state and ensure the freedom of all who live within it.
If either Israel or Palestine refuse to sign up to this, then you blockade them and stop all imports and exports for as long as necessary.

As far as I can see, it's either that or tear the entire territory in half and hope both sides will accept their half. They won't, of course.

Debator

Wibbs wrote: »

...Go further back and to our own patch of this planet. How were the primitive barely educated Irish peasant farmers dying in ditches from hunger "benefiting mankind"? Sure they should have accepted British rule and benefitted from living in a first world country and empire which contributed to world medicine, science and technological advances. Oh wait...

Personally I actually do believe the Ireland should have accepted British Rule and enjoyed the advantages of being the second city of the empire. Independence was a tragedy for Ireland and the people's standard of living took a nose dive in the years after independence thanks to DeValera's childish and stubborn economic war. The Catholic Church was a harsher ruler than Britain ever was. Fast forward to today and we are still a gombeen republic living in our former ruler's shadow. But now we are straying from the point.

karma_ wrote: »

I'll give you a hint, Warsaw ghetto.

By the way, you just about covered every single trope associated with the Israel/Palestine conflict in one paragraph, well done.

When Israel creates concentration camps and starts gassing Arabs by the millions, then you might have a point. Until then, read a book. It's illegal to trivialize the Holocaust in some countries.

wes

Debator wrote: »

but comparisons between Israel and apartheid South Africa hold no water.

Well this guy would disagree:

Tutu condemns Israeli 'apartheid'

Now, I think it fair to say, that he knows way more about apartheid than pretty much every poster on here.

barbiegirl

Debator wrote: »

Absolutely shocking and disturbing comparison. You are trivializing the Holocaust in which 6 million Jews died. Israel is currently defending itself from Hamas rocket attacks on its civilian population. Thanks to the Iron Dome defence system and precise air strikes on terrorist targets, they have been relatively successful so far. How exactly is this comparable to the Holocaust? Explain yourself - I'm not letting you away with this one.

As a nation we ignored and refused to believe what was happening in Europe and we were racist and bigoted. This is something I am ashamed of. BUT today we as a nation have grown, are more educated and better informed. Do the actions of our forefathers mean we should now ignore or excuse what we very plainly see to be happening. Should we learn from the past or make the same mistakes again?

Playing the holocaust card does not now, nor will it ever excuse the wanton destruction of a people and culture. The stealing of land and property, even now when reparations from World War II are still rightly being paid to the survivors of the holocaust, the state of Israel are breaking the same laws.

Leftist

Debator wrote: »

Yet another laughably hysterical post with repeated cries of "wascism". The Left are becoming a parody of themselves. Sorry to disappoint you, but comparisons between Israel and apartheid South Africa hold no water. Arab Israelis enjoy full citizens' rights such as voting and representation in government. Blacks in apartheid South Africa did not. Arabs attend Israeli universities, can work in any job they are deemed capable of, and I don't see any separate toilets for Arabs and Jews as was the case with blacks and whites in apartheid South Africa.

In fact, the constant flawed comparisons between Israel and apartheid SA trivializes the suffering of black South Africans. Ditto for the extremely offensive and distasteful "ZioNazi" comparisons.

The occupied territories are a separate matter as they are not part of Israel. If Israel were to grant the Palestinians living there full citizenship and the accompanying rights, it would be akin to annexing the territory and the IPSC brigade would be up in arms.

So please explain again how Israeli is like apartheid SA.

the apartheid south africans didn't kill woman and children en masse with weapons of war either.

What you convey as they are unworthy of the land which the white man/israeli annexed, is just the same as the white apartheid supporting south africans.

As long as palestinians do as they are told by the israelis then they will enjoy greater freedom.

and you still have not addressed your own racism.

disgusting, why isn't this scumbag banned?

karma_

Debator wrote: »

When Israel creates concentration camps and starts gassing Arabs by the millions, then you might have a point. Until then, read a book. It's illegal to trivialize the Holocaust in some countries.

Who is trivialising anything?

You are trivialising the suffering of Palestinians. It's obvious you couldn't give two solitary fúcks about them.

Debator

wes wrote: »

Well this guy would disagree:

Tutu condemns Israeli 'apartheid'

Now, I think it fair to say, that he knows way more about apartheid than pretty much every poster on here.

Nice attempt at shutting down discussion. "Oh no, the mighty Desmond Tutu has spoken, we shan't dare question his highness!" Christian churches have been notorious for their Jew-hatred throughout the ages.

Next.

karma_

Debator wrote: »

Nice attempt at shutting down discussion. "Oh no, the mighty Desmond Tutu has spoken, we shan't dare question his highness!" Christian churches have been notorious for their Jew-hatred throughout the ages.

Next.

Ahh there we go, he's obviously a 'Jew-Hater' because he criticises Israel.

You know pretty soon, that term will become meaningless because it will be used that much it turns into a parody of itself.

Next.

wes

Debator wrote: »

Nice attempt at shutting down discussion. "Oh no, the mighty Desmond Tutu has spoken, we shan't dare question his highness!" Christian churches have been notorious for their Jew-hatred throughout the ages.

Next.

Prove that Desmond Tutu has said anything Anti-semtic and get back to me then. Amazing that you would accuse a man (via guilt by association) who has done more for peace in this world, then most people ever will. Appalling and quite frankly disgusting attack.

Also, you have repeatedly said rather nasty and racist things yourself in this thread multiple time against Palestinians, and quite frankly are in no position to accuse others of racism without proof.

speedboatchase

Reports of an explosion on a bus in Tel Aviv says the Israeli Ambulance Service. Bye, bye truce

Debator

speedboatchase wrote: »

Reports of an explosion on a bus in Tel Aviv says the Israeli Ambulance Service. Bye, bye truce

Shocking stuff. You can bet the Arabs will be dancing on the streets and burning flags again.

speedboatchase

Debator wrote: »

Shocking stuff. You can bet the Arabs will be dancing on the streets and burning flags again.

No other details yet but would it be reasonable to assume that it was likely a suicide bomber attack? I wish Hamas saw its people as something other than dispensable propaganda tools.

Story is coming from Reuters by the way, 10 wounded.

Jelle1880

karma_ wrote: »

Who is trivialising anything?

You are trivialising the suffering of Palestinians. It's obvious you couldn't give two solitary fúcks about them.

So because people think it's a disgrace comparing the Holocaust to what is happening now they are trivialising things ?

Behave.

666irishguy

Haven't visited this thread in a few days and all I can see is that the Hamas propaganda machine is hitting the mark with the politically correct and those in need of a popular cause to wear a wrist band for while enjoying life in an incredibly stable part of the world. The fact remains that Hamas opened this particular round of hostilities. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy, their Arab friends don't even want to deal with them. I don't know if it has been mentioned that the Jordanians turfed them out in the 70's when they decided to go down the diplomatic route and now enjoy probably the best relations of any Arab nation with Israel. When the Palestine plan for two states was proposed in 47 by the UN, the Israeli's accepted the resolution, however the peace loving Palestinians and their Arab allies were less open minded and begun to almost immediately attack the Israeli's sparking the first Israeli-Arab war. It's laughable when people say that we in Ireland have some kind of common ground with the Palestinians. The leaders of Hamas have no respect for our way of life and would not think twice about bombing us if we were no longer a useful propaganda outlet and it would further their own agenda. The Israeli's are no angels, but you can forgive them for being a bit paranoid considering they are the only functioning democracy in a region surrounded by crackpots and religious fundamentalists. The old Irish solution of burying your head in the sand and hoping it will be sorted out when the need to stand up for the values you spout (like we did in WW2 while 6 million Jews and countless small countries were virtually annihilated) wouldn't cut it for a month in that part of the world. As a small country we could learn a lot from Israel. Not being pushed around by bigger neighbours, striving for self sufficiency and having some national pride (not the cringe-worthy Celtic before every business plan type) are a few that spring to mind.

karma_

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So because people think it's a disgrace comparing the Holocaust to what is happening now they are trivialising things ?

Behave.

Jelle, how come you were not as quick to jump to my defence when I was accused of trivialising the Holocaust?

humanji

666irishguy wrote: »

As a small country we could learn a lot from Israel. Not being pushed around by bigger neighbours, striving for self sufficiency and having some national pride (not the cringe-worthy Celtic before every business plan type) are a few that spring to mind.

Isn't that exactly what the Palestinians are trying to do? As I've said before, there's no good guys and bad guys in this situation. There's bad guys and victims. The leaders on both sides want the opposition wiped off the map due to religious fundamentalism. The people stuck with those leaders are the victims who are being ignored because so many people on the outside want to pick a leader to support.

Jelle1880

karma_ wrote: »

Jelle, how come you were not as quick to jump to my defence when I was accused of trivialising the Holocaust?

Because I don't have the time to read everything ?
I haven't got a clue what you're talking about, feel free to remind me though.

Andy!!

Debator wrote: »

When Israel creates concentration camps and starts gassing Arabs by the millions, then you might have a point. Until then, read a book. It's illegal to trivialize the Holocaust in some countries.

Uuuuuuh, you do know that genocide can be commited in ways other than the way the Nazis chose... right? Genocide is not directly linked to a specific method. So the Israelis parasitic spread into the region while systematically killing every man, woman and child that they can, yes, could be considered Genocide.

karma_

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Because I don't have the time to read everything ?
I haven't got a clue what you're talking about, feel free to remind me though.

It was a rhetorical question.

Rhys Essien

666irishguy wrote: »

Haven't visited this thread in a few days and all I can see is that the Hamas propaganda machine is hitting the mark with the politically correct and those in need of a popular cause to wear a wrist band for while enjoying life in an incredibly stable part of the world. The fact remains that Hamas opened this particular round of hostilities. The Palestinians are their own worst enemy, their Arab friends don't even want to deal with them. I don't know if it has been mentioned that the Jordanians turfed them out in the 70's when they decided to go down the diplomatic route and now enjoy probably the best relations of any Arab nation with Israel. When the Palestine plan for two states was proposed in 47 by the UN, the Israeli's accepted the resolution, however the peace loving Palestinians and their Arab allies were less open minded and begun to almost immediately attack the Israeli's sparking the first Israeli-Arab war. It's laughable when people say that we in Ireland have some kind of common ground with the Palestinians. The leaders of Hamas have no respect for our way of life and would not think twice about bombing us if we were no longer a useful propaganda outlet and it would further their own agenda. The Israeli's are no angels, but you can forgive them for being a bit paranoid considering they are the only functioning democracy in a region surrounded by crackpots and religious fundamentalists. The old Irish solution of burying your head in the sand and hoping it will be sorted out when the need to stand up for the values you spout (like we did in WW2 while 6 million Jews and countless small countries were virtually annihilated) wouldn't cut it for a month in that part of the world. As a small country we could learn a lot from Israel. Not being pushed around by bigger neighbours, striving for self sufficiency and having some national pride (not the cringe-worthy Celtic before every business plan type) are a few that spring to mind.

What a load of rubbish.Did you get a day off from school today.

wes

666irishguy wrote: »

The fact remains that Hamas opened this particular round of hostilities.

Except that they didn't, and this has in fact been shown already several times in the thread.

666irishguy wrote: »

When the Palestine plan for two states was proposed in 47 by the UN, the Israeli's accepted the resolution, however the peace loving Palestinians and their Arab allies were less open minded and begun to almost immediately attack the Israeli's sparking the first Israeli-Arab war.

Both sides were already fighting before the resolution. After the Resolution, Israel began an ethnic cleansing program, and then the other Arab states attacked.

666irishguy wrote: »

The Israeli's are no angels, but you can forgive them for being a bit paranoid considering they are the only functioning democracy in a region surrounded by crackpots and religious fundamentalists.

The old only democracy nonsense, modified to the only functioning democracy. Bizarre claim, considering the complete lack of democracy in the West Bank.

Laika1986

Hamas claims responsibility for bus explosion in Tel Aviv, broadcatsing statement from mosques in #Gaza. Say managed to place bomb on bus.

Jelle1880

wes wrote: »

Both sides were already fighting before the resolution. After the Resolution, Israel began an ethnic cleansing program, and then the other Arab states attacked.

So now you're claiming that the Arab nations attacked because of the removal of Arabs by Jewish troops ?

As for that bomb, any chance of a truce is well and truly out the window now, I fully expect Israel to send in troops within the next 2-3 days.

Wibbs

Debator wrote: »

Personally I actually do believe the Ireland should have accepted British Rule and enjoyed the advantages of being the second city of the empire.

Ireland wasn't Dublin and vice versa. The advantages to those living in "Hell or Connaught" were a lot harder to see. Seriously read a bloody book. And this is coming from someone hardly a cheerleader for what often passes for republican thinking.

Independence was a tragedy for Ireland and the people's standard of living took a nose dive in the years after independence thanks to DeValera's childish and stubborn economic war. The Catholic Church was a harsher ruler than Britain ever was. Fast forward to today and we are still a gombeen republic living in our former ruler's shadow. But now we are straying from the point.

The "self hating Jew" has an Irish bedfellow it seems.

When Israel creates concentration camps and starts gassing Arabs by the millions, then you might have a point. Until then, read a book.

Read a book indeed. I'd suggest reading several and then compare and contrast and then step back a bit and try to apply some critical thinking aimed at both sides of the page.

As for the holocaust comparisons? Yes clearly they're daft. However there's a reason why it was called the Final Solution/Die Endlosung of the "Jewish problem". Other "solutions" preceded it in various parts of Europe for centuries. The Nazi's "innovation" was to take those previous solutions to their ultimate and bitter end. Those previous solutions were marking them out as different(even decreeing by law they wear different clothing. Long before yellow stars too), ghettoisation, taking away some of their rights and privileges under law, hoping they would just piss off and if and when that didn't work, openly stealing their lands and businesses, hoping they'd get the message and if they didn't then forcing emigration from non Jewish areas. Some of that sound even vaguely familiar?

It's illegal to trivialize the Holocaust in some countries.

And in my opinion it shouldn't be. It just creates our own sacred cow, which can bring more problems that it seeks to solve. For a start it creates doubters among many and not just the tinfoil hatters, which is bloody dangerous. No historical event should be free from scrutiny and heavy scrutiny with it. The west goes tut tut every time some Muslims go ape over cartoons of Muhammed, but they have their sacred cows and so do we.

RainMaker

Laika1986 wrote: »

Hamas claims responsibility for bus explosion in Tel Aviv, broadcatsing statement from mosques in #Gaza. Say managed to place bomb on bus.

Celebratory gunfire going off in Gaza after bus reports of bus attack in Tel Aviv... (Paul Danahar BBC News, Gaza)

humanji

Rhys Essien wrote: »

What a load of rubbish.Did you get a day off from school today.

You can be dismissive without begin insulting.

And this goes for everyone. It's obviously an emotive issue, but there's no reason to resort to personal abuse.

wes

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So now you're claiming that the Arab nations attacked because of the removal of Arabs by Jewish troops ?

Are you denying that is what happened? The sequence of events is that Israel had already started ethnic cleansing, before the Arab states attacked. You can read about what happened here:

The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine

You can't possible tell me that refugees streaming out of Palestine at the time, had nothing to do with the war. I am not saying that was the sole reason, but to ignore it imho is just silly.

Laika1986

Unconfirmed reports on twitter of a second explosion in Tel Aviv