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Isreal at war. Many comentators egging them on.
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Except that they didn't, and this has in fact been shown already several times in the thread.
Both sides were already fighting before the resolution. After the Resolution, Israel began an ethnic cleansing program, and then the other Arab states attacked.
The old only democracy nonsense, modified to the only functioning democracy. Bizarre claim, considering the complete lack of democracy in the West Bank.
What are the sources of people claiming the Israeli's started it this time? Most likely a pro-Palestinian organisation.
Both sides were fighting skirmishes, but the fact is the Arabs and Palestinians blew any hope of the Israelis trusting them when they piled in from as far away as Iraq and Saudi Arabia. I won't deny that roughly 250'000 Palestinians were removed from their land, but what do you think the Palestinians would have done if they got the upper hand?
Israel is the only democracy, there are constant claims that this is an Israeli political party trying to look strong before the next election on this thread. Funny that they would feel the need to win votes if they didn't have a functioning democracy. Last time I checked, nobody can be jailed in the West bank for expressing his political views peacefully, doubt it's the same in Gaza with Hamas.0 -
Are you denying that is what happened? The sequence of events is that Israel had already started ethnic cleansing, before the Arab states attacked. You can read about what happened here:
The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine
You can't possible tell me that refugees streaming out of Palestine at the time, had nothing to do with the war. I am not saying that was the sole reason, but to ignore it imho is just silly.
Nobody is ignoring it, but your post made it seem as if that was the sole reason for the attack on Israel, apologies if that was taken wrong.
There were also inhabitants who were asked to leave the area by the Arab nations and who did so freely.
You mentioned what happened before, and that's good because the book you mentioned says exactly the same:
When the UN recommended the plan of partition in 1947 protests broke out all over the Arab countries in the region, spilling over into violence against the Jewish populations of those countries (who then hit back equally as hard, leading to a civil war).
And I know it's pedantic, but the first casualties in that conflict were Jewish travellers on a bus.0 -
Shocking scenes in Tel Aviv. Thankfully there was very little people on the bus when it happened.Ha'aretz wrote:Celebratory gunfire rang out in Gaza City when local radio stations reported news of the Tel Aviv explosion.
Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri praised the bombing, but stopped short of claiming responsibility.
"Hamas blesses the attack in Tel Aviv" he told Reuters0 -
Rhys Essien wrote: »What a load of rubbish.Did you get a day off from school today.
Load of rubbish in what sense? Because I refuse to accept the modern Western tradition of having some popular cause in some far away land to march in a Che Guevara T-shirt for? Neither side is without fault in this conflict, but completely ignoring the fact that the Palestinians would not exactly be in line for the most progressive thinkers of the year award is foolish.0 -
Hopefully...hamas need eliminating.speedboatchase wrote: »
What were they thinking? Ground invasion will absolutely happen now.0 -
And all those pesky Muslims too, presumably?opinionated3 wrote: »Hopefully...hamas need eliminating.0 -
666irishguy wrote: »What are the sources of people claiming the Israeli's started it this time? Most likely a pro-Palestinian organisation.
There was attacks by Israel reported before the current mess started, that were reported by several media organizations. So hardly a Pro-Palestinian sources.
Here is one of them from before the current mess:
Gaza man killed by Israeli forces was mentally ill666irishguy wrote: »Both sides were fighting skirmishes, but the fact is the Arabs and Palestinians blew any hope of the Israelis trusting them when they piled in from as far away as Iraq and Saudi Arabia.
Israel immediately started throwing out Palestinians before that happened. They escalated things, and were attacked. Its absurd to blame the Arabs for the escalation.666irishguy wrote: »I won't deny that roughly 250'000 Palestinians were removed from their land, but what do you think the Palestinians would have done if they got the upper hand?
Its actually between 750,000 and 900,000 by most estimates. As for what the Arabs would have done, I can hardly predicts an alternate time line, the fact remain, it was Israel who started throwing people out of there homes, before any outside states got involved.666irishguy wrote: »Israel is the only democracy,
Lebanon, Iraq and now Egypt are all democracies if Israel is one.666irishguy wrote: »there are constant claims that this is an Israeli political party trying to look strong before the next election on this thread. Funny that they would feel the need to win votes if they didn't have a functioning democracy. Last time I checked, nobody can be jailed in the West bank for expressing his political views peacefully, doubt it's the same in Gaza with Hamas.
Plenty of people being jailed in the West Bank on a regular basis by both the PA and the IDF, for protesting. Sure sometime people are just arrested for no reason that anyone can discern, as there not charged with any crime sometimes.
Seriously, there are multiple example of this happening on a regular basis, that it is quite frankly astonishing that you would make this claim.0 -
And all those pesky Muslims too, presumably?
He's clearly not saying that. Apparently nobody on here supports Hamas. So the prevailing thought from Pro-Palestinian posters here is that Hamas is bad and all Palestinians are good (even though they elected them). So using that logic, surely it would be a good thing if the threat of Hamas was nullified? After all, nobody here supports their actions, remember?0 -
There were also inhabitants who were asked to leave the area by the Arab nations and who did so freely.
The problem with this, is that Israel didn't allow them back in. People fleeing conflict, have a right to return to there homes, once its done. Israel didn't allow them back in as they weren't Jews.
The vast majority however, were forced out, in a pre-planned ethnic cleansing.You mentioned what happened before, and that's good because the book you mentioned says exactly the same:
When the UN recommended the plan of partition in 1947 protests broke out all over the Arab countries in the region, spilling over into violence against the Jewish populations of those countries (who then hit back equally as hard, leading to a civil war).
What your saying here is confusing.
Years before the 1947 there was a conflict between Palestinians and Zionists going on. The riots in other countries had nothing to do with that ongoing conflict between the 2, as the riots came afterwards. There was already an ongoing conflict.
BTW, the plan for Ethnic cleansing actually predates the conflict entirely, going back to Herzl himself back in the late 1800s, when he detailed the entire idea of Zionism.And I know it's pedantic, but the first casualties in that conflict were Jewish travellers on a bus.
Honestly I have no idea what time lines you working with at this point. I am rather confused here.0 -
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Terrorist threats can only be "nullified" by destroying their popular support. A ground invasion would increase Hamas's popular support with the end result that Israel would justify widespread slaughter on the basis that they're all Hamas sympathisers. In order to eliminate Hamas, you would need to practically nuke the population.speedboatchase wrote: »He's clearly not saying that. Apparently nobody on here supports Hamas. So the prevailing thought from Pro-Palestinian posters here is that Hamas is bad and all Palestinians are good (even though they elected them). So using that logic, surely it would be a good thing if the threat of Hamas was nullified? After all, nobody here supports their actions, remember?0 -
Hamas have no problems with summary executions and dragging bodies through the streets and their stated aim is to rule all of Israel and the occupied territories as an Islamic state.
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/gunmen-kill-6-collaborators-in-gaza-witnesses.aspx?pageID=238&nID=35128&NewsCatID=3520 -
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Deleted User wrote: »Hamas have no problems with summary executions
Israel have been doing exactly that the last few days. Again as bad as one another.Deleted User wrote: »and dragging bodies through the streets
Completely appalling thing to do from them.Deleted User wrote: »and their stated aim is to rule all of Israel and the occupied territories as an Islamic state.
As opposed to Israel ruling them as a Jewish state? Again, I fail to see how there any worse than Israel in this regard.0 -
There was attacks by Israel reported before the current mess started, that were reported by several media organizations. So hardly a Pro-Palestinian sources.
Here is one of them from before the current mess:
Gaza man killed by Israeli forces was mentally ill
Israel immediately started throwing out Palestinians before that happened. They escalated things, and were attacked. Its absurd to blame the Arabs for the escalation.
Its actually between 750,000 and 900,000 by most estimates. As for what the Arabs would have done, I can hardly predicts an alternate time line, the fact remain, it was Israel who started throwing people out of there homes, before any outside states got involved.
Lebanon, Iraq and now Egypt are all democracies if Israel is one.
Plenty of people being jailed in the West Bank on a regular basis by both the PA and the IDF, for protesting. Sure sometime people are just arrested for no reason that anyone can discern, as there not charged with any crime sometimes.
Seriously, there are multiple example of this happening on a regular basis, that it is quite frankly astonishing that you would make this claim.
I would hardly call that news report evidence that this Israeli's wanted to start a war. Seems like an alleged mentally ill man approached a checkpoint from a concealed river bed and refused to stop. Suicide bombings on Army checkpoints were popular for a long time. For all they knew he was wired to blow them all up. I think it was initially 250'000 after the first war in 48, the Israelis became more radicalised after that. A large amount of those who subsequently left, fled more from fear of a genocide that never happened or didn't want to live in a majority Jewish state. It's hard to get an accurate number on how many were removed or left but it is high, yet it is important to remember that a large amount of Arabs remained in Israel. I think it's something like 20% of the population is Arab to this day and the Israeli's aren't pushing them out, though there is documented friction and suspicion from Israeli's with more hard-line opinions. As for democracy...Really?...Egypt and Lebanon?. Egypt and Lebanon are nothing like a democracy and you know full well that you would much rather live in Israel than either of those two who are slipping back into the dark ages (particularly the Egyptians). As for political protests in the West bank, well we all know how that one goes down. The kids get sent out in front, the young men line up behind and start pelting stones, while the snipers are a good bit back waiting for some conscript on the Israeli side to fire off a shot from being provoked. It's more astonishing that you can't seem to see through the propaganda from the Palestinians.0 -
The problem with this, is that Israel didn't allow them back in. People fleeing conflict, have a right to return to there homes, once its done. Israel didn't allow them back in as they weren't Jews.
The vast majority however, were forced out, in a pre-planned ethnic cleansing.
Have the Jews who have been expelled from the surround countries been allowed back in ?
Genuine question though, because I don't think so but I could be wrong.What your saying here is confusing.
Years before the 1947 there was a conflict between Palestinians and Zionists going on. The riots in other countries had nothing to do with that ongoing conflict between the 2, as the riots came afterwards. There was already an ongoing conflict.
BTW, the plan for Ethnic cleansing actually predates the conflict entirely, going back to Herzl himself back in the late 1800s, when he detailed the entire idea of Zionism.
It's not confusing at all, the book you mentioned talks specifically about the events preceding the expulsion of Arabs from the region and the years before it, including the civil war of 1947.
As for the issue you're talking about, that was a consequence of Plan Dalet, which had nothing to do with Herzl.Honestly I have no idea what time lines you working with at this point. I am rather confused here.
Again, the preceding events leading directly up to Israel declaring independence and the Arab nations attacking them, eg the events of 1947.
And yes, everyone is aware that there was already fighting in the decades before that.
edit: I think the role of the media is also something which has to be looked at:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2236209/BBC-reporter-tweets-photo-injured-Gaza-girl-actually-child-Syria.html0 -
"An Israeli Defence Forces spokeswoman said 111 Israelis were "wounded" on Tuesday, an unusually high number, but it was later clarified that the majority had suffered trauma." Sheesh.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/nov/21/tel-aviv-bus-bomb-gaza0 -
666irishguy wrote: »I would hardly call that news report evidence that this Israeli's wanted to start a war.
It certainly shows that they killed someone, several days before the current mess.666irishguy wrote: »Seems like an alleged mentally ill man approached a checkpoint from a concealed river bed and refused to stop. Suicide bombings on Army checkpoints were popular for a long time. For all they knew he was wired to blow them all up.
Sure, and I am sure Hamas can make similar excuse to fire off some rockets, when it suits them as well.
It isn't hard for both sides to offer justifications for there attacks.666irishguy wrote: »I think it was initially 250'000 after the first war in 48,
You would be wrong, the estimates are between 750,000 and 900,000.666irishguy wrote: »the Israelis became more radicalised after that.
The radicalism is inherent in Zionism. Herzl was talking about ethnic cleansing in the late 1800s before any conflict existed.666irishguy wrote: »A large amount of those who subsequently left, fled more from fear of a genocide that never happened or didn't want to live in a majority Jewish state.
There was a clear plan to get rid of them. Read the book I linked to. The intention on the Israel side was to ethnically cleanse non-Jews, and they did exactly that.666irishguy wrote: »It's hard to get an accurate number on how many were removed or left but it is high, yet it is important to remember that a large amount of Arabs remained in Israel.
The vast majority were kicked out, and the number left were no threat to Israel being a majority Jewish state.666irishguy wrote: »I think it's something like 20% of the population is Arab to this day and the Israeli's aren't pushing them out, though there is documented friction and suspicion from Israeli's with more hard-line opinions.
Politician openly discuss getting rid of them btw, and these are main stream politicians like Avigidor Liberman (head of the 3rd largest party), and even some "moderates" in Kadima have said similar things.666irishguy wrote: »As for democracy...Really?...Egypt and Lebanon?. Egypt and Lebanon are nothing like a democracy and you know full well that you would much rather live in Israel than either of those two who are slipping back into the dark ages (particularly the Egyptians).
If Israel is a democracy, then so are those other countries. There is btw no democracy in the West Bank, so calling Israel a democracy and not the other countries is simple hypocrisy imho.666irishguy wrote: »As for political protests in the West bank, well we all know how that one goes down. The kids get sent out in front, the young men line up behind and start pelting stones, while the snipers are a good bit back waiting for some conscript on the Israeli side to fire off a shot from being provoked.
Except that isn't the way it goes, and is just the same old lie peddled by Israel to justify arresting anyone anytime they want. Again, the don't even charge people with any crime, half of the time.666irishguy wrote: »It's more astonishing that you can't seem to see through the propaganda from the Palestinians.
Considering that you just word for word repeated Israeli propaganda, that is a pretty funny thing to claim to make.0 -
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speedboatchase wrote: »What were they thinking? Ground invasion will absolutely happen now.opinionated3 wrote: »Hopefully...hamas need eliminating.
Yes, because ground invasions solve everything.
People are correctly disgusted with the bus attack and correctly criticise those celebrating it. Surely though this is just a milder form of it, it's clear that some people WANT this invasion to happen, knowing full well that innocent lives will be snuffed out.
Nauseating.0 -
Yes, because ground invasions solve everything.
People are correctly disgusted with the bus attack and correctly criticise those celebrating it. Surely though this is just a milder form of it, it's clear that some people WANT this invasion to happen, knowing full well that innocent lives will be snuffed out.
Nauseating.
Hamas, among them.
They know that a ground invasion will cause more casualties on the Israeli side, just like it did in Lebanon and Operation Cast Lead.0 -
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I highly doubt they're just rushing into this, they want a ground invasion as well imo so they can try and get some of their wanted targets.0
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Have the Jews who have been expelled from the surround countries been allowed back in ?
Genuine question though, because I don't think so but I could be wrong.
No, but this is something Israel needs to bring up with other Arab states, and is not something the Palestinians can be faulted for, as they were in refugee camps when this happened in the decade after the creation of Israel, and can hardly be held responsible for that.It's not confusing at all, the book you mentioned talks specifically about the events preceding the expulsion of Arabs from the region and the years before it, including the civil war of 1947.
The book isn't the cause of the confusion, but your posts. They don't make sense and are confusing.As for the issue you're talking about, that was a consequence of Plan Dalet, which had nothing to do with Herzl.
Herzl was talking about ethnic cleansing back in the 1800s, and he is considered the father of Zionism. My point is that ethnic cleansing was a part of the Zionist project long before there was a conflict. Basically, a bunch of Europeans showed up with the express intention of kicking off the people who were already there, this was always a recipe for disaster, that we still see playing out to this day.Again, the preceding events leading directly up to Israel declaring independence and the Arab nations attacking them, eg the events of 1947.
And yes, everyone is aware that there was already fighting in the decades before that.
Ok, but again, your post are imho very confusing. I have no idea what timelines you are working with and you are freely mixing in stuff that happened long after 1948.0 -
Hamas, among them.
They know that a ground invasion will cause more casualties on the Israeli side, just like it did in Lebanon and Operation Cast Lead.
121 death toll for the IDF in 2006.
4/8x that for lebanese combatants.
43 israelis civilians to 1200 lebanese civilians.
what are you talking about?0 -
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No, but this is something Israel needs to bring up with other Arab states, and is not something the Palestinians can be faulted for, as they were in refugee camps when this happened in the decade after the creation of Israel, and can hardly be held responsible for that.
The book isn't the cause of the confusion, but your posts. They don't make sense and are confusing.
Herzl was talking about ethnic cleansing back in the 1800s, and he is considered the father of Zionism. My point is that ethnic cleansing was a part of the Zionist project long before there was a conflict. Basically, a bunch of Europeans showed up with the express intention of kicking off the people who were already there, this was always a recipe for disaster, that we still see playing out to this day.
Ok, but again, your post are imho very confusing. I have no idea what timelines you are working with and you are freely mixing in stuff that happened long after 1948.
The fact you think they are confusing is not my problem, you brought up a book talking about the period before Israel's foundation, I went further into that, it's pretty clear.
And no, I'm NOT mixing in things that happened long before 1948, everything I mentioned happened in the period between 1946 and 1947.
Lefitst: And how many deaths does the IDF have now ?
Hamas and Israel know that a ground invasion will definitely cost more Israeli lives than what's happening now.0 -
666irishguy wrote: »The old Irish solution of burying your head in the sand and hoping it will be sorted out when the need to stand up for the values you spout (like we did in WW2 while 6 million Jews and countless small countries were virtually annihilated) wouldn't cut it for a month in that part of the world.
Oh spare me. :rolleyes:
Ireland in the 1940s was a hardly a place able to deal with an influx of refugees even if people here had any idea of what was going on in Europe. We had no reason to join up with and fight with either side of a war between evil empires.
And when it comes to dealing with holocausts, have a look at how all the pro-Israeli groups were working so hard in the US to get the US government to deny the Armenian holocaust. Charming people indeed. :rolleyes:0 -
It certainly shows that they killed someone, several days before the current mess.
Sure, and I am sure Hamas can make similar excuse to fire off some rockets, when it suits them as well.
It isn't hard for both sides to offer justifications for there attacks.
You would be wrong, the estimates are between 750,000 and 900,000.
The radicalism is inherent in Zionism. Herzl was talking about ethnic cleansing in the late 1800s before any conflict existed.
There was a clear plan to get rid of them. Read the book I linked to. The intention on the Israel side was to ethnically cleanse non-Jews, and they did exactly that.
The vast majority were kicked out, and the number left were no threat to Israel being a majority Jewish state.
Politician openly discuss getting rid of them btw, and these are main stream politicians like Avigidor Liberman (head of the 3rd largest party), and even some "moderates" in Kadima have said similar things.
If Israel is a democracy, then so are those other countries. There is btw no democracy in the West Bank, so calling Israel a democracy and not the other countries is simple hypocrisy imho.
Except that isn't the way it goes, and is just the same old lie peddled by Israel to justify arresting anyone anytime they want. Again, the don't even charge people with any crime, half of the time.
Considering that you just word for word repeated Israeli propaganda, that is a pretty funny thing to claim to make.
I said initially it was 250'000, there is no denying that happened. People were forced from the best lands to make way for incoming settlers. The other figures that happened after the first war are very very high, but there was no Third Reich style ethnic cleansing and 20% of Israel's population is still Arab regardless of what the cranks on the far right in Israel say. You have just repeated the standard pro-Palestinian line to the letter, except you can't seem to bring yourself to recognise the atrocities committed by the golden boys of Liberal guilt and the darlings of laughable college days "find a cause to fight for" romanticism. When the Palestinians fire off rockets it's self defence or they are just lashing out in frustration? either way it's all A-okay. The poor Palestinians, unable to get their voice heard in this day and age. Only a sophisticated long range missile fired from the human shield of a housing estate will do the job for them. Good job they are spending their money so wisely, I mean people could really be suffering if they didn't buy that expensive missile, or did they get it for free from another peace loving Arab neighbour? The Israeli's fire back and it's all hands on deck to right this shocking act of unwarranted aggression. The thing all pro-Palestinian supporters should ask themselves is what would a country run by Hamas (elected by the Palestinians) look like? Literally and figuratively look a great deal right of Israel and you will see. It's called Iran, a wonderful nation to live in. First class human rights and foreign policy (guns for all who will tow their line). Maybe I am mistaken though, I'm sure it's probably just Israel to blame as usual. Not like Hamas has any links to a country trying to get nuclear weapons and expressing views like "Israel should be wiped off the map".0 -
opinionated3 wrote: »Hopefully...hamas need eliminating.
You need to familiarise yourself with the meaning of the phrase 'The Greater Evil'.0 -
Oh spare me. :rolleyes:
Ireland in the 1940s was a hardly a place able to deal with an influx of refugees even if people here had any idea of what was going on in Europe. We had no reason to join up with and fight with either side of a war between evil empires.
And when it comes to dealing with holocausts, have a look at how all the pro-Israeli groups were working so hard in the US to get the US government to deny the Armenian holocaust. Charming people indeed. :rolleyes:
Refugees aside, we who love to blow our own trumpet about the 700 years of oppression, were more than happy to sit and watch as country after country was squashed. A war between evil empires was it? We were damn lucky that the Brits didn't go down, because singing rebel songs about 1916 wouldn't have done us much good when the Germans arrived and gave us our new place in their society.0 -
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666irishguy wrote: »Refugees aside, we who love to blow our own trumpet about the 700 years of oppression, were more than happy to sit and watch as country after country was squashed. A war between evil empires was it? We were damn lucky that the Brits didn't go down, because singing rebel songs about 1916 wouldn't have done us much good when the Germans arrived and gave us our new place in their society.
Sorry, but that's wrong and quite frankly a disgrace to the memory of the 7000 men who laid down their lives fighting against the Germans in WWII.0 -
The fact you think they are confusing is not my problem, you brought up a book talking about the period before Israel's foundation, I went further into that, it's pretty clear.
Except that what your saying is rather confusing.And no, I'm NOT mixing in things that happened long before 1948, everything I mentioned happened in the period between 1946 and 1947.
Great, so then you should mention dates, when you claim something was the start of a conflict etc. Otherwise its confusing.0 -
666irishguy wrote: »I said initially it was 250'000, there is no denying that happened. People were forced from the best lands to make way for incoming settlers.
Fair enough.666irishguy wrote: »The other figures that happened after the first war are very very high, but there was no Third Reich style ethnic cleansing
No one has made such a claim. The ethnic cleansing would have more in common to what was done to the Native Americans.666irishguy wrote: »and 20% of Israel's population is still Arab regardless of what the cranks on the far right in Israel say.
Kadima is the far right now? Everyone in the West calls them moderates.....666irishguy wrote: »You have just repeated the standard pro-Palestinian line to the letter,
except you can't seem to bring yourself to recognise the atrocities committed by the golden boys of Liberal guilt and the darlings of laughable college days "find a cause to fight for" romanticism.
I have condemned Hamas numerous times in the past. You will however find that what Israel does is being defended by her supporters no matter what. FFS, we have people condemning Hamas in one breath, and then making excuse for Israel for doing the exact same thing. Your post here is a perfect example of that. Its massive hypocrisy, to claim I support Hamas, when I sure as hell don't, all the while in the same post, making excuse after excuse for Israel.666irishguy wrote: »When the Palestinians fire off rockets it's self defence or they are just lashing out in frustration? either way it's all A-okay.
No, its not ok. I never said it was ok. Your just making stuff up to argue with now, and that is just silly.
Also, ignoring Israel violence again, is simply ridiculous.666irishguy wrote: »The poor Palestinians, unable to get their voice heard in this day and age.
Laboring really hard with this one. Both side engage in violence, let not pretend otherwise.666irishguy wrote: »Only a sophisticated long range missile fired from the human shield of a housing estate will do the job for them. Good job they are spending their money so wisely, I mean people could really be suffering if they didn't buy that expensive missile, or did they get it for free from another peace loving Arab neighbour?
Nice to see you recycle Israeli propaganda so well, all the while accusing other of doing so in regards to the other side. The idea that only one side shouldn't have weapons is again absurd.666irishguy wrote: »The Israeli's fire back and it's all hands on deck to right this shocking act of unwarranted aggression.
So, Israeli violence is acceptable, and btw more often then not, there the ones kicking things off. So some nice hypocrisy as per usual from defenders of Israeli violence.666irishguy wrote: »The thing all pro-Palestinian supporters should ask themselves is what would a country run by Hamas (elected by the Palestinians) look like? Literally and figuratively look a great deal right of Israel and you will see.
So, we should ignore the current Apartheid state run by Israel, and think about hypotheticals that may or may not ever happen. Hamas's term btw has run out, and there is no guarantee they would win another election, after there carry on in Gaza.666irishguy wrote: »It's called Iran, a wonderful nation to live in. First class human rights and foreign policy (guns for all who will tow their line).
Ah, the other obsession of supporters of Israel. It doesn't matter than Iran has nothing to do with this, but let bring them up in anyways. Nothing short of some more straight forward propaganda repetition from you, again.666irishguy wrote: »Maybe I am mistaken though, I'm sure it's probably just Israel to blame as usual. Not like Hamas has any links to a country trying to get nuclear weapons and expressing views like "Israel should be wiped off the map".
Iran is not trying to get nuclear weapons. That is a lie, just like the one the US harped in regards to Iraq. Israel on the other hand has a nuclear arsenal, and are doing there level best to wipe Palestine off the map, with the constant expansion outside there borders.
BTW, they didn't say Israel should be wiped off the map. It was in fact already addressed in this thread, and is just typical propaganda recycled by people like yourself.0 -
Sorry, but that's wrong and quite frankly a disgrace to the memory of the 7000 men who laid down their lives fighting against the Germans in WWII.
I never mentioned anything derogatory about those men who decided to fight the Nazi's, I was making the point that as a collective in terms of county and mentioned nothing about individual choices made. so I don't know what you are so outraged about.0 -
And your solution to combating terrorists is what exactly? Dialogue? Tell it to bin laden.....oh no wait you can't....he swimming with the fishes cos people saw what needed to be done and went to it with a sense of purpose. With a bit of luck the terrorists that are Hamas will be meeting their maker fairlysoon. Now people i said HAMAS not Palestinian civilian!!!
Yes, because ground invasions solve everything.
People are correctly disgusted with the bus attack and correctly criticise those celebrating it. Surely though this is just a milder form of it, it's clear that some people WANT this invasion to happen, knowing full well that innocent lives will be snuffed out.
Nauseating.0 -
Fair enough.
No one has made such a claim. The ethnic cleansing would have more in common to what was done to the Native Americans.
Kadima is the far right now? Everyone in the West calls them moderates.....
I have condemned Hamas numerous times in the past. You will however find that what Israel does is being defended by her supporters no matter what. FFS, we have people condemning Hamas in one breath, and then making excuse for Israel for doing the exact same thing. Your post here is a perfect example of that. Its massive hypocrisy, to claim I support Hamas, when I sure as hell don't, all the while in the same post, making excuse after excuse for Israel.
No, its not ok. I never said it was ok. Your just making stuff up to argue with now, and that is just silly.
Also, ignoring Israel violence again, is simply ridiculous.
Laboring really hard with this one. Both side engage in violence, let not pretend otherwise.
Nice to see you recycle Israeli propaganda so well, all the while accusing other of doing so in regards to the other side. The idea that only one side shouldn't have weapons is again absurd.
So, Israeli violence is acceptable, and btw more often then not, there the ones kicking things off. So some nice hypocrisy as per usual from defenders of Israeli violence.
So, we should ignore the current Apartheid state run by Israel, and think about hypotheticals that may or may not ever happen. Hamas's term btw has run out, and there is no guarantee they would win another election, after there carry on in Gaza.
Ah, the other obsession of supporters of Israel. It doesn't matter than Iran has nothing to do with this, but let bring them up in anyways. Nothing short of some more straight forward propaganda repetition from you, again.
Iran is not trying to get nuclear weapons. That is a lie, just like the one the US harped in regards to Iraq. Israel on the other hand has a nuclear arsenal, and are doing there level best to wipe Palestine off the map, with the constant expansion outside there borders.
BTW, they didn't say Israel should be wiped off the map. It was in fact already addressed in this thread, and is just typical propaganda recycled by people like yourself.
It's well documented that he stated Israel should be wiped off the map, the Iranians are also very big into their holocaust denial, which is also well documented. The right of return is the biggest issue that the Palestinians will not give up on even though the majority of them alive today and active in the cause have never even been to where they want to go, It doesn't excuse the fact they were removed in any number of ways, but they are simply not going to get that land back and continuing to target civilians in Israel for a by now distorted and mythologised pipe dream given to them by their predecessors who were more than happy to try and kill the Israeli state in its infancy is the source of their problems. We need not ignore the failings of Israel but at the same time we can't ignore the fact that they have the ability to freely debate these issues and perhaps in time change their opinion and actions, something that the Palestinians have no ability to do under the current overtly pro-militant and fundamentalist regime which they elected. Kadima is moderate by Israeli standards, I was not saying the party is hardcore full right, but merely that like any political party there will be members and aligned politicians with varying levels of left or right wing views. To deny that countries like Iran and Syria are actively involved in this conflict is unbelievable. Where then are Hamas getting this hardware from? I doubt they have a huge native arms industry that has managed to avoid media and intelligence services attention, that can build a missile with enough range to reach Jerusalem from Gaza and that would be dumb enough to manufacture explosives and small arms that are Iranian and Syrian stamped. They may or may not be dealing with Iran directly, but why would they? They have Hezbollah to happily act as an intermediary. Iran is undoubtedly pursuing a nuclear weapons program. They are up to their necks in cheap oil and they still want to go to the bother of indigenously designing their own reactors and centrifuges? They could have them built for themselves for next to nothing or with an oil deal and let the UN look at them. The idea that a theocracy like Iran would get nuclear weapons is the most frightening thing that could happen to the middle-east and the world in general.0 -
Dialogue seemed to work just fine with the IRA.opinionated3 wrote: »And your solution to combating terrorists is what exactly? Dialogue? Tell it to bin laden.....oh no wait you can't....he swimming with the fishes cos people saw what needed to be done and went to it with a sense of purpose. With a bit of luck the terrorists that are Hamas will be meeting their maker fairlysoon. Now people i said HAMAS not Palestinian civilian!!!
Force will never defeat organised terrorism, for the reasons I've outlined above. Terrorist organisations are fed by the force/retaliation of those they oppose. Every Palestinian killed by an IDF drone strike probably adds five new members to Hamas - the friends and family of those that have been killed.
The IRA's membership swelled massively during the years when the UK had made the biggest effort to try and stamp them out with force. When they stopped and instead both sides sat around a table, membership in the IRA collapsed to the point that they're an irrelevant organisation now.
The only option here is dialogue.0 -
opinionated3 wrote: »And your solution to combating terrorists is what exactly? Dialogue? Tell it to bin laden.....oh no wait you can't....he swimming with the fishes cos people saw what needed to be done and went to it with a sense of purpose. With a bit of luck the terrorists that are Hamas will be meeting their maker fairlysoon. Now people i said HAMAS not Palestinian civilian!!!
Dialogue would be an excellent start and preferable to killing people wantonly. Israel must address the disenfranchisement of the Palestinian people. They must address the settlements that encroach on Palestinian territory.0 -
666irishguy wrote: ». The idea that a theocracy like Iran would get nuclear weapons is the most frightening thing that could happen to the middle-east and the world in general.
Why is Iran getting a bomb frightening? Iran has not initiated a war with anyone in over 200 years.
Would it not be more logical that they see obtaining a bomb as a means to self defence? After all despite all the rhetoric no one has ever attacked militarily North Korea for example.0 -
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NO he did not. Link.666irishguy wrote: »It's well documented that he stated Israel should be wiped off the map,
"Ahmadinejad's phrase was "بايد از صفحه روزگار محو شود" according to the text published on the President's Office's website.[86]
Ahmadinejad himself has repeatedly said that his remark was misinterpreted.
The translation presented by the official Islamic Republic News Agency has been challenged. Arash Norouzi says the statement "wiped off the map" was never made and that Ahmadinejad did not refer to the nation or land mass of Israel, but to the "regime occupying Jerusalem". Norouzi translated the original Persian to English, with the result, "the Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time."[87] Juan Cole, a University of Michigan Professor of Modern Middle East and South Asian History, agrees that Ahmadinejad's statement should be translated as, "the Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e eshghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."[88] According to Cole, "Ahmadinejad did not say he was going to 'wipe Israel off the map' because no such idiom exists in Persian." Instead, "he did say he hoped its regime, i.e., a Jewish-Zionist state occupying Jerusalem, would collapse
So rather than repeat the mistranslation/propaganda hoping it'll stick, maybe try to aim for the truth? Just a thought.
Oh it's a bit of a boogyman alright. Pakistan have em and they're arguably more theocratic in nature, intent and action, but sure they're OKish as they're in bed with the west. For some well dodgy nuclear dealings check out the history of the Israeli bomb programme and who they got into bed with. I'll give you a hint, Desmond Tutu is from there.The idea that a theocracy like Iran would get nuclear weapons is the most frightening thing that could happen to the middle-east and the world in general.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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666irishguy wrote: »It's well documented that he stated Israel should be wiped off the map,
No it isn't and this has already been addressed in this thread earlier, and what the hell here it is again:
Top Myths about Iran’s Nuclear Enrichment Program
This claim has been debunked again and again, and was already debunked in this thread. Repeating this nonsense again is imho rather silly, especially as it has feck all to do with the current conflict.666irishguy wrote: »the Iranians are also very big into their holocaust denial, which is also well documented.
The President has done this, but its hardly all Iranians ffs. A lot of them don't like there government all that much btw, which is well documented....666irishguy wrote: »The right of return is the biggest issue that the Palestinians will not give up on even though the majority of them alive today and active in the cause have never even been to where they want to go,
Israel was founded on 2000 year old land claim, where the last time one of there ancestors were there, was over 2000 years ago. A land claim going back 60 years can hardly be dismissed considering the Israeli claim.666irishguy wrote: »It doesn't excuse the fact they were removed in any number of ways, but they are simply not going to get that land back and continuing to target civilians in Israel for a by now distorted and mythologised pipe dream given to them by their predecessors who were more than happy to try and kill the Israeli state in its infancy is the source of their problems.
Oh please, the PA offered numerous compromises, and Israel ignored them. The leaked Palestine papers show compromise after compromise being rejected by Israel.666irishguy wrote: »We need not ignore the failings of Israel but at the same time we can't ignore the fact that they have the ability to freely debate these issues and perhaps in time change their opinion and actions, something that the Palestinians have no ability to do under the current overtly pro-militant and fundamentalist regime which they elected.
Wow, so the Palestinians have to wait for the Israelis to stop stealing there land, and finally get around to electing a party that won't keep on stealing there land. By the time that happens (if ever) there will be nothing left for them.
Also, Hamas only controls Gaza, and not the rest of the occupied territories.666irishguy wrote: »Kadima is moderate by Israeli standards, I was not saying the party is hardcore full right, but merely that like any political party there will be members and aligned politicians with varying levels of left or right wing views.
Livni is widely seen as a moderate, and she was the leader of the party until relatively recently. This isn't some crazy fringe I was talking about, but rather the leader, of the largest "moderate" Israeli party.666irishguy wrote: »To deny that countries like Iran and Syria are actively involved in this conflict is unbelievable.
Your joking right? Syria is not involved in the current conflict. How could they be, when there in the middle of a civil war.
Also, if Iran is involved, then so is the United States then.666irishguy wrote: »Where then are Hamas getting this hardware from?
I am sure there getting it from multiple sources, and I am sure some of it comes from Iran, but to say there involved due to this is absurd, unless you also include the United States as being involved.666irishguy wrote: »I doubt they have a huge native arms industry that has managed to avoid media and intelligence services attention, that can build a missile with enough range to reach Jerusalem from Gaza and that would be dumb enough to manufacture explosives and small arms that are Iranian and Syrian stamped. They may or may not be dealing with Iran directly, but why would they? They have Hezbollah to happily act as an intermediary.
I am sure they build some of the stuff themselves, and I am sure they get stuff from multiple sources. Again, if Iran are considered involved then so is the US.666irishguy wrote: »Iran is undoubtedly pursuing a nuclear weapons program.
No its a lie, the exact same lie the US tried to peddle with Iraq, and irrelevant to the current topic.666irishguy wrote: »They are up to their necks in cheap oil and they still want to go to the bother of indigenously designing their own reactors and centrifuges?
So the oil will last forever? Oh wait no it won't.
Also, why can't they make there own reactors etc? What business is it of anyone else, as long as they comply with the NPT. Something Israel hasn't even bothered to sign up too.666irishguy wrote: »They could have them built for themselves for next to nothing or with an oil deal and let the UN look at them. The idea that a theocracy like Iran would get nuclear weapons is the most frightening thing that could happen to the middle-east and the world in general.
Well, seeing as its complete fiction, there is nothing to worry about.0 -
Dialogue seemed to work just fine with the IRA.
Force will never defeat organised terrorism, for the reasons I've outlined above. Terrorist organisations are fed by the force/retaliation of those they oppose. Every Palestinian killed by an IDF drone strike probably adds five new members to Hamas - the friends and family of those that have been killed.
The IRA's membership swelled massively during the years when the UK had made the biggest effort to try and stamp them out with force. When they stopped and instead both sides sat around a table, membership in the IRA collapsed to the point that they're an irrelevant organisation now.
The only option here is dialogue.
The issue of decommissioning of weapons by Hamas will inevitably come up during any attempts to negotiate a lasting peace - I can't see Hamas agreeing to that - if they did they would probably lose most of their support and new splinter groups embracing extremism would crawl out of the woodwork.
I think we should just face the fact that what's happening there is going to last for a long time, we could all be here in 20 years time having the exact same arguments and talking about the latest round of "hostilities" :mad:0 -
Of course not, because when a nation is nothing but evil terrorist religious nuts, all they want to do is blow **** up.Would it not be more logical that they see obtaining a bomb as a means to self defence?
When the US and USSR engaged in stockpiling nuclear weapons, it was for mutual "self defence". But if a country like Iran does it, clearly the only reason they would want a nuke is so they can start wars.0 -
But they are terrorist supporting religious nut jobs.Of course not, because when a nation is nothing but evil terrorist religious nuts, all they want to do is blow **** up.
When the US and USSR engaged in stockpiling nuclear weapons, it was for mutual "self defence". But if a country like Iran does it, clearly the only reason they would want a nuke is so they can start wars.0 -
666irishguy, I think your sarcasm detector is on the blink.0
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And so are Israel. So what do we do now? We've got two groups of terrorists, with civilian backing, blowing the **** out of eachother. What next?opinionated3 wrote: »But they are terrorist supporting religious nut jobs.0 -
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opinionated3 wrote: »What terrorists do Israel support?
A whole bunch of them in the West Bank, armed to the teeth, who attack Palestinians with impunity, all the while being protected by the IDF.
Then there is the IDF itself, who have a habit of using Human Shields, and murdering civilians.0 -
No it isn't and this has already been addressed in this thread earlier, and what the hell here it is again:
Top Myths about Iran’s Nuclear Enrichment Program
This claim has been debunked again and again, and was already debunked in this thread. Repeating this nonsense again is imho rather silly, especially as it has feck all to do with the current conflict.
The President has done this, but its hardly all Iranians ffs. A lot of them don't like there government all that much btw, which is well documented....
Israel was founded on 2000 year old land claim, where the last time one of there ancestors were there, was over 2000 years ago. A land claim going back 60 years can hardly be dismissed considering the Israeli claim.
Oh please, the PA offered numerous compromises, and Israel ignored them. The leaked Palestine papers show compromise after compromise being rejected by Israel.
Wow, so the Palestinians have to wait for the Israelis to stop stealing there land, and finally get around to electing a party that won't keep on stealing there land. By the time that happens (if ever) there will be nothing left for them.
Also, Hamas only controls Gaza, and not the rest of the occupied territories.
Livni is widely seen as a moderate, and she was the leader of the party until relatively recently. This isn't some crazy fringe I was talking about, but rather the leader, of the largest "moderate" Israeli party.
Your joking right? Syria is not involved in the current conflict. How could they be, when there in the middle of a civil war.
Also, if Iran is involved, then so is the United States then.
I am sure there getting it from multiple sources, and I am sure some of it comes from Iran, but to say there involved due to this is absurd, unless you also include the United States as being involved.
I am sure they build some of the stuff themselves, and I am sure they get stuff from multiple sources. Again, if Iran are considered involved then so is the US.
No its a lie, the exact same lie the US tried to peddle with Iraq, and irrelevant to the current topic.
So the oil will last forever? Oh wait no it won't.
Also, why can't they make there own reactors etc? What business is it of anyone else, as long as they comply with the NPT. Something Israel hasn't even bothered to sign up too.
Well, seeing as its complete fiction, there is nothing to worry about.
You have a very naive and selective view of the world. It's quite laughable to be anti Israeli and USA in Ireland. We hide behind bigger countries and make sure our heads are down when there are people in this world who regard our society as something to be altered against our will, based on a supernatural belief system. It's not politically correct to say, but I for one am glad that the USA and Israel keeps Islamic nut jobs like Hamas and the rulers of Iran in their place, which is week and relatively unable to bother the rest of us in our ivory towers. The Israeli's don't have the luxury of being an island on the far side of Europe.0 -
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And so are Israel. So what do we do now? We've got two groups of terrorists, with civilian backing, blowing the **** out of eachother. What next?
We don't need to do anything, they've had nuclear capabilities for quite some time and never used it.
Personally I would not trust Iran with nuclear weapons - actually let me re-phrase that - I would not trust Ahmadinejad with nuclear weapons. Whether he actually said "wipe Israel off the map" or not is irrelevant - the guy is a bit of a nutcase who seems to like provoking people just for the sake of it.0
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