Garda now admit state has lost war on drugs

Piliger

Spiritual wrote: »

Ok, I am more or less on the side of legalised drugs as it shows a mature society but I still need to understand from one of the advocates that take drugs why morally do you not desist from purchasing them from drug dealers?

The news is covered in the death and misery these people you are funding cause.

You are being naive or disingenuous or just silly.

You can apply that 'question' to almost anything that is 'bad' for us. Alcohol and tobacco ? They cost the tax payers billions every year to treat cancer and addictions. Is that moral ? Sweets cost the taxpayer to treat dental decay.

Your suggestion that no one should do anything that you consider immoral or that costs the country ... is risible.

Human beings have been taking drugs for tens of thousands of years, even longer. It is part of human society and cannot be washed away with morality lessons.

Our society needs to wake up and learn to accommodate this section of society in a way that does least damage to them and least damage to the rest of us.

I have never taken drugs - I just don't see the attraction. I think it's dumb and stupid. But I don't believe in making them into criminals. That is even dumber !

Take the billions we spend on this asinine war, and divert it into education about drugs and health care to help addicts. It makes MUCH more sense.

Piliger

Spiritual wrote: »

Never suggested it.

Sorry ... it was a passing comment and didn't mean to infer you did.

Spiritual

Yamanoto wrote: »

Human nature, that's why.

It does not follow that we always make the right decisions, simply because we possess the capacity to do so. But that's pointing out the bleedin' obvious tbh - you know this.

You can implore teenage girls to quit getting pregnant, the lads to take a wee break from glassing each other in the face or fifty-something blokes to forego that last tasty tipple at the Golf club prior to heading home. But folks will continue to engage in myriad patterns of behaviour which may impact themselves and society at large in a negative fashion. These problems are complex, refractory and worth real consideration - which is why the glib line you're pursuing is more than somewhat pointless in the context of the discussion.

I don't think my line is glib.
Human nature is a catch all excuse.

Spiritual

mikom wrote: »

Really, well I am still trying to get my head round the vast numbers of people who put their own personal herbicide needs before the unquestionable moral aspect of funding Monsanto.

By the way, you do know what ingestion is?

Yes.

Sofiztikated

Spiritual wrote: »

Do you purchase yours from this home grown source?
Your comments are about marijuana I assume unless your home grown source is growing coca or poppies?

The pubs and clubs of Ireland will be full of people who are on MDMA, Coke, I am taking an intuitive punt that most of them will have come from organised crime.

Your case is not really the answer I am looking for, I am more interested in a response from one of the "weekend party people".

Yes.

And I can answer for the MDMA case, and a lesser extent, coke.

Most people get them from a guy. Be s/he be a nameless faceless person in a crowd, or someone they know. Now, the people he gets his supply from might have links with organised crime, or it may be further up than that.

People don't associate this guy with organised crime. Why? Many reasons. Ignorance, mostly. Willful or otherwise. They just want to have their fun. I'm guilty of this.

As someone else mentioned, Adidas, Apple, and probably even the manufacturer of the device you are using to view this thread have morally ambiguous links to human rights abuse. Where do you view that?

120_Minutes

Sofiztikated wrote: »

As someone else mentioned, Adidas, Apple, and probably even the manufacturer of the device you are using to view this thread have morally ambiguous links to human rights abuse. Where do you view that?

what he's trying to get us to say is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=02SAekw7wUo

if it has to be me to say it, so be it.

sorry if my posts seem less than serious. i'm in the process of burning one down.

Sofiztikated

TBH, we're very unlikely to see legalisation or regulation in this country any time soon.

This is a country where I cannot purchase an alcoholic drink to take home in an hours time.

Even if we did see legalisation, we have a culture of excess in this country, we wouldn't be able to handle it.

Education is the key, but it won't be done.

MagicSean

mikom wrote: »

Rewind a few years........

Condoms are not something you need. They are a luxury. If you don't wish to contribute to crime then simply don't buy them. Simple really.

Are you looking for some kind of reward for most strawman arguments or something?

richy wrote: »

Neither is a smart phone or laptop. But I bet you own one seeing as you are using the internet. Therefore, by your theory you are supporting Chinas human rights abusing government. You keep ignoring this point.

Built my computer myself. It is possible that some of the parts came from a sweat shop in china. I try my best to avoid that and if I do discover it to be true I will no longer use that manufacturer. Same way I will not be getting the latest iphone. The difference being that their are many legitimate manufacturers of electronics out there whereas the same cannot be said for marijuana producers.

But even if I but all my stuff from slave traders and even if I am a hypocrite, it still does not change the fact that when you put money in a dealers hand you are willingly funding organised crime. You can try and deflect responsability or tarnish me for not buying fair trade coffee but it does not negate your responsability. And if you can live with that that's up to you. If you can excuse it with "Everyone else is doing it" that's up to you. You are still funding them.

Offy wrote: »

And what about its medicinal uses? Lets say for example someone with MS? Should they suffer because the law says they cant have it? The law needs to be changed.

I've already said the law needs to be changed. Have you read the thread?

120_Minutes

Sofiztikated wrote: »

TBH, we're very unlikely to see legalisation or regulation in this country any time soon.

This is a country where I cannot purchase an alcoholic drink to take home in an hours time.

Even if we did see legalisation, we have a culture of excess in this country, we wouldn't be able to handle it.

Education is the key, but it won't be done.

Sadly, you are correct.

Spiritual

Sofiztikated wrote: »

TBH, we're very unlikely to see legalisation or regulation in this country any time soon.

This is a country where I cannot purchase an alcoholic drink to take home in an hours time.

Even if we did see legalisation, we have a culture of excess in this country, we wouldn't be able to handle it.

Education is the key, but it won't be done.

Now that's very defeatist.

But I do agree about the culture of excess, education is the route and moral standings should be apart of that.

People should begin today by not handing money to drug dealers.

120_Minutes

MagicSean wrote: »

The difference being that their are many legitimate manufacturers of electronics out there whereas the same cannot be said for marijuana producers.

really? not one? are you 100% sure of that?

120_Minutes

Spiritual wrote: »

People should begin today by not handing money to drug dealers.

if i had any kind of a green thumb, i ****ing would.

Sofiztikated

MagicSean wrote: »

Are you looking for some kind of reward for most strawman arguments or something?



Built my computer myself. It is possible that some of the parts came from a sweat shop in china. I try my best to avoid that and if I do discover it to be true I will no longer use that manufacturer. Same way I will not be getting the latest iphone. The difference being that their are many legitimate manufacturers of electronics out there whereas the same cannot be said for marijuana producers.

But even if I but all my stuff from slave traders and even if I am a hypocrite, it still does not change the fact that when you put money in a dealers hand you are willingly funding organised crime. You can try and deflect responsability or tarnish me for not buying fair trade coffee but it does not negate your responsability. And if you can live with that that's up to you. If you can excuse it with "Everyone else is doing it" that's up to you. You are still funding them.



I've already said the law needs to be changed. Have you read the thread?

I've pointed out how this is not always the case.

And if it was legalised, this would lessen. Not completely, as there is always someone willing to sell black market goods, cigarettes, booze, perfume, whatever.

Oh, and yes, there are many legitimate producers of cannabis. For example, the Cannabis Cup is on this coming week, in Amsterdam. What about all the weed that is produced for medical marijuana dispensaries in the US and Canada.

MagicSean

120_Minutes wrote: »

really? not one? are you 100% sure of that?

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I've pointed out how this is not always the case.

And if it was legalised, this would lessen. Not completely, as there is always someone willing to sell black market goods, cigarettes, booze, perfume, whatever.

If you are happy that your supplier makes it himself and gives you the surplus then fair play to you. Otherwise you're just fooling yourself.

Spiritual

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Yes.

And I can answer for the MDMA case, and a lesser extent, coke.

Most people get them from a guy. Be s/he be a nameless faceless person in a crowd, or someone they know. Now, the people he gets his supply from might have links with organised crime, or it may be further up than that.

People don't associate this guy with organised crime. Why? Many reasons. Ignorance, mostly. Willful or otherwise. They just want to have their fun. I'm guilty of this.

As someone else mentioned, Adidas, Apple, and probably even the manufacturer of the device you are using to view this thread have morally ambiguous links to human rights abuse. Where do you view that?

I personally try and take responsible educated choices in all aspects of my life, even to the products I purchase. In fact I gave up a very successful form of income because I had a moral epiphany.

Spiritual

120_Minutes wrote: »

if i had any kind of a green thumb, i ****ing would.

Buy a of compost.

120_Minutes

MagicSean wrote: »

If you are happy that your supplier makes it himself and gives you the surplus then fair play to you. Otherwise you're just fooling yourself.

I wa not referring to my own situation by asking the question. I was asking if you are 100% certain that there are not many legitimate producers of cannabis, anywhere on the planet.

Spiritual

mikom wrote: »

Primal scream of a post.

One of my favourite bands.

120_Minutes

Spiritual wrote: »

Buy a of compost.

oh if it were only that simple. I could go on but i may be breaking the forum charter.

Yamanoto

Spiritual wrote: »

I don't think my line is glib.

Sure thing chief

Originally Posted by bedrock#1
Right, so what should be done about it then?

Reply by Spiritual
Stop buying them.

Spiritual

120_Minutes wrote: »

oh if it were only that simple. I could go on but i may be breaking the forum charter.

Interesting to know the level of arbitration you will not exceed. :P :pac:

Spiritual

Yamanoto wrote: »

Sure thing chief

Asked a question, answered it. How is that glib?

120_Minutes

Spiritual wrote: »

Interesting to know the level of arbitration you will not exceed. :P :pac:

this aint my first weed thread, i enjoy debating it. it's a subject close to my heart and if i change one mind on it, its one more mind changed.

tdv123

It's for legalization of all drugs then I'm all for it.

If it's just for weed & everything else stays the same I would not be up for that. I'm not supporting some hippy convention.

120_Minutes

tdv123 wrote: »

I'm not supporting some hippy convention.

i'm assuming your post is tongue in cheek, so i'll respond in kind:

if the choice is that, or a legalising a drug that turns people into dickheads, and dickheads into bigger dickheads. i'll wear rose coloured glasses and a tie died shirt any day, maaaaaaaaan.

RustyNut

Surely the people responsible for empowering the Dunne family,Ma Baker,John Gilligan etc are the legislators who handed them the market for their wares.

Getting high is part of the human condition and there will allways be a demand for recreational drugs, Diageo doing quite well in the alcohol market however alcohol is not for everyone and the people who require other products will get them from somewhere, usually a friend or a friend of a friend, not some gun toting murderous drug lord like those mentioned above.

Prohibition has failed, the biggest danger most recreational drug users face is an encounter with the legal system which can have life long negative consiquences for what is effectively a victimless crime.

Why not legalise all drugs, take the power away from the psycos at the top of the illegal drug trade, stop criminalizing ordinary harmeless people and treat drug addiction as a public health mater not a criminal one.

Just for the record I neither drink alcohol or use recreational drugs.

Chuck Stone

MagicSean wrote: »

That's my point. Grass would be much easier to steal and resell than any of those other things.

MagicSean's crystal ball of doom.

poeticseraphim

I would not claim to be an expert.

But I would like to have medical ,social and legal and crime experts decide..see how it has affected other countries..

A while back the Netherlands was trying to get rid of it again...but they couldn't..tourism


I would say we would get a lot of tourists....from Britain....

poeticseraphim

Lets legalize hookers too....erm I mean Sex industry workers ....


Then in another 20 years ..we may get an abortion ref and Gay marriage



Lets be honest FF and FG would never allow Ireland to become liberal.

Suceed

Spiritual wrote: »

Do you purchase yours from this home grown source?
Your comments are about marijuana I assume unless your home grown source is growing coca or poppies?

Your case is not really the answer I am looking for, I am more interested in a response from one of the "weekend party people".

I only snort free trade cocaine myself.

Grayson

Hamiltonion wrote: »

Where can I buy this magical E10 gram of weed that lasts a week? More like E50 for 3-4g of variable quality, would last average user 1-2 weeks

As I said with my comparison with alcohol. A gram would get myself and my friends stoned for a night. The same way a bottle of whiskey would get us drunk. If it was just me, it'd last a week or two. And the price of €10 is the price in the netherlands. Realisticly I'd be looking to pay €30-€35 for 1-1.5gms in ireland from a criminal.

Criminals couldn't undercut legitmitately grown weed so long as the government don't tax it excessively. I think it'd be brillant if the government got the money instead.


With regards to the morality of buying from dealers.
I haven't eaten a nestle produce in years. I try to source my clothes from reputible firms the same with stuff like coffee.
I was so disappointed when I found out that my crispy pancakes were made by a subsidary of nestle.

I haven't bought marajuana in years (well, not in ireland). But before anyone here starts taking a dig at marajuana smokers they should seriously take a look at their own lives. Nestle are responsible for the deaths of babies and I doubt many people here are going to give up their yorkies etc...

Leftist

LostBoy101 wrote: »

Legalising drugs is like a receipe for disaster. Take long-term marijuana smoking for example, does increasing tax stop them from smoking? No because it's addictive and this will apply to dangerous illegal drugs.

The only way to prevent big amount of drugs coming in is to increase the security strictness on the harbours.

AeoNGriM

nevaeh-2die-4 wrote: »

i for one would not like to see drugs legal ,i don't want to see 300 rehab centres set up across the country because we have decided to drop the law and contribute to the downfall of Irish society



i have children and don't want them exposed to this crap, imagine if weed was legal that's all you would smell when you walk around town if we sell it in shops..


i lived next door to someone who smoked weed all day, the smell inside my house was sicking, the smell would come into my children's bedroom,there room became un usable as the smell was so strong. thankfully i left, but this is what your up against, some people might be ok with this I'm not.

Drugs dealers will undercut the price and you will get more for you money, the drug dealers will always win.they will also benefit from the relaxed laws.

Every time these threads come up people say tax it, why introduce more drugs for the sake of money, its not as if we would ever see anything from tax, we will see tax increases and property taxes each year

I know my opinion wont go down well with the pro druggies, I'm not "backing up my facts" its just my opinion like or lump it.

not matter happens nobody will win the drug war with that said it doesnt mean we have to change our laws.

i await the back lash of my "joe Duffy brigade" view

But it's ok for them to grow up in a culture where binge drinking is the norm, even encouraged?

It's ok for them to walk past 2 or three pubs and off licenses on every street?

It's ok for them to see empty beer cans and vodka bottles strewn everywhere?

It's ok for them to see people punching the face off each other after downing 17 pints?

It's ok for them to see alcoholics aggressively hassling people in town?

It's ok for them to grow up in a society where alcohol and tobacco related illnesses are the leading cause of death ie heart disease and stroke?


:rolleyes:

kupus

Step one to be on the road to recovery is to admit you have a problem. So well done gardai for that.
Step two ????
Step three PROFIT.

Im Rick James b**ch....I'm rich.

uberalles

I don't smoke myself.

Idea - The rent a room scheme could be extended to a "grow a room" allowing people struggling with their mortgages to make some extra cash.

This might help so many ppl with these distressed mortgages as well to relax a bit

The "distill a room" scheme will probably never happen in my life time though.

Now where did I leave them skins ......

Yakult

Spiritual wrote: »

People should begin today by not handing money to drug dealers.

I stopped giving criminals my money a long time ago. That is always one argument people try and use against me "You are supporting the criminals by smoking weed". Thankfully I dont have to buy that grit shit anymore, I can call my friend and 15 minutes later I have some beautiful pure home grown bud that is not laced with something harmful

Decriminalize the weed and let people grow small amounts for personal use. Its what I will be doing after the new year. More should do the same. Its pretty easy and loads of info on line.

Caliden

Maybe not legalise but perhaps decriminalise like Portugal.
'Experts' said it would turn Portugal into a drug haven but the opposite happened -
http://www.businessinsider.com/portugal-drug-policy-decriminalization-works-2012-7

Addiction rates have been halved in the 10 years since it's introduction.

MagicSean

AeoNGriM wrote: »

But it's ok for them to grow up in a culture where binge drinking is the norm, even encouraged?

It's ok for them to walk past 2 or three pubs and off licenses on every street?

It's ok for them to see empty beer cans and vodka bottles strewn everywhere?

It's ok for them to see people punching the face off each other after downing 17 pints?

It's ok for them to see alcoholics aggressively hassling people in town?

It's ok for them to grow up in a society where alcohol and tobacco related illnesses are the leading cause of death ie heart disease and stroke?


:rolleyes:

No. I agree that it is hypocritical. But all that means is alcohol should be restricted more.

Iwannahurl

realies wrote: »

"Couldn't we legalise it and tax it?"

So can we ? It would take a lot of the violence from the drug gangs and create Jobs and tax income, Will Ireland take the huge step and decriminalise class b/c drugs ?

Yes, and then everything will be hunky-dory, as it is with alcohol.

Oh wait: http://www.nacd.ie/images/stories/docs/publicationa/nacd_a1_alcoholconsum_final.pdf

Iwannahurl

Caliden wrote: »

Maybe not legalise but perhaps decriminalise like Portugal.
'Experts' said it would turn Portugal into a drug haven but the opposite happened -
http://www.businessinsider.com/portugal-drug-policy-decriminalization-works-2012-7

Addiction rates have been halved in the 10 years since it's introduction.

Portugal is a very interesting case, and one well worth investigating and considering.

Their approach is not simply decriminalisation, though. Policies and programmes based on Public Health and Harm Reduction principles are key aspects of the Portuguese strategy.

http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/attachements.cfm/att_137215_EN_PolicyProfile_Portugal_WEB_Final.pdf

AeoNGriM

MagicSean wrote: »

No. I agree that it is hypocritical. But all that means is alcohol should be restricted people should be educated more.

FYP.

Restricting alcohol and doing nothing to change this countrys culture of alcohol and binge drinking will fail miserably.

MagicSean

AeoNGriM wrote: »

FYP.

Restricting alcohol and doing nothing to change this countrys culture of alcohol and binge drinking will fail miserably.

You kinda missed my point. Arguing that cannabis should be legal because alcholo is more dangerous is not a logical argument for legalising cannabis. It is an argument for making alcohol illegal.

Grayson

MagicSean wrote: »

You kinda missed my point. Arguing that cannabis should be legal because alcholo is more dangerous is not a logical argument for legalising cannabis. It is an argument for making alcohol illegal.

Unless you determine that there is an acceptable level of harm and alcohol is under it. In which case so in marajuana.

Mr Benevolent

LostBoy101 wrote: »

Legalising drugs is like a receipe for disaster. Take long-term marijuana smoking for example, does increasing tax stop them from smoking? No because it's addictive and this will apply to dangerous illegal drugs.

The only way to prevent big amount of drugs coming in is to increase the security strictness on the harbours.

Not very logical, that. The only way is to reduce demand, and that will happen with legalisation and education programmes, with the spinoff off reduce the enforcement bills. Its working in Portugal.

charlemont

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cases-too-complex-as-whitecollar-convictions-plummet-3297189.html

More like too much effort involved..

Much easier to bring people to court for smoking..

Odysseus

I spend most of my working life either with addicts, teaching about addiction or learning about it. I would like to see people getting access to whatever it is they use. Let people use and take responsibility for it; and for those who want to move on or need help use our facilities to work with them.

rubberdiddies

i'm still on the fence in relation to legalising cannabis.

on one hand and in theory it should result in a lower price, resulting in less crime to pay for it.......it would brink in much needed tax......it should free up garda and court resources and jail spaces.

on the other hand, it is used as a stepping stone to other drugs, this really is a fact for a lot of people. Most peoples first drug is cannabis........more young kids will have access to it, same as they have access to alcohol now.....secondhand smoke will be a problem for people.......we don't truly know the affect it has on people (the risk of lung cancer is 20 times higher than just smoking a cigarette for example.....there are studies showing a link to schizophrenia, I personally know someone who has been left with schizophrenia for the past 15 years due to heavy use)

i'm currently leaning towards it remaining illegal, though i'm sure anyway it wont be legalised here anytime in the near or distant future

MagicSean

Economically it makes sense. The money saved from providing legal aid alone to people prosecuted for simple posession would probably go along way to counselling and information services.

the_syco

kupus wrote: »

Only problem is the friggin NIMBY brigade and their never ending crusades to do right by themselves and themselves only.

Lets set up such a shop in Donegal.

The reasons;
Next to that border to the UK
They want job creation up there
Lots of room to build greenhouses
They seem to hate the government up there

=-=

OD on alcohol; death
OD on weed; make up a few hours later with serious munchies

MagicSean wrote: »

The reality would be quite different though. First you have the issue of licensing and sourcing imports.

Where do you get it from? Get seeds from the Amsterdam, liaise with stores in the USA who currently sell it to help set up the stores.

How do you ensure you are not funding crime in another country because you can be sure they won't appreciate it if you are. Maybe we should focus domestic production? Of course it'd be grown domestically, to ensure it's grown with nothing added afterwards that could produce unwanted effects.

Do you let people grow as much as they want or do you licence large scale production. License large scale productions to produce it, and legalise the growth of it but with the limit of 3 plants for personal use, to discourage home growing for exportation, and allows the police to bust illegal grow houses.

How would you secure such a large growing facility from interference or theft? Have it in a large secure facility, in a well lit fenced area.

Who distributes the stuff? Chemists? Off licences? Anyone? Specialized shops that need a license to keep a count on the amount of shops, and so that they can ensure that their product comes from legit grow-houses to ensure it doesn't come from local dealers.

What limits do you put on distribution? Over 20's only, as it has a negative effect on children and teenagers brains. Once your brain is fully formed, you'll need a lot more to cause the same damage. Although teenagers will still smoke it, such as some still get their hands on alcohol, it'll be the minority. Also, if a shop gets caught selling to minors, they get fined after their entire supply is incinerated.

Will you tax it? Yes

At what rate? Unknown, as I don't know how much it costs to make it. It could be as much as 50%, though.

How do you get customers away from the dealers? Cheaper prices, and a product that is not only better, but always better. Also, different strains that are labeled.

How do you protect the legitimate sellers from the dealers who want to protect their income? Heavier sentences for dealers; give them more of a reason not to become known to the law.

kingtiger

rubberdiddies wrote: »

it is used as a stepping stone to other drugs, this really is a fact for a lot of people. Most peoples first drug is cannabis

this auld nugget again, Alcohol \ Caffeine is the first drug most people encounter

as for hash being a gateway drug, where do you go buy this drug?

that's right an illegal street dealer who my not have any hash and says "why not try this instead"