Garda now admit state has lost war on drugs

Chuck Stone

Yeah at least Tayto Lover seems to actually consider the evidence. Btw Tayto Lover, you know that eating too much crisps can lead to obesity so for that reason I'd like to see Taytos banned?

Who would get your Taytos off then? Or would you grow illegal spuds down the back garden and make your own?

tayto lover

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not assuming anything. I come to that conclusion based on the content of your posts, which is all I have to go on, since I likely don't know you in real life.



No, one of us is wrong because it's a dichotomy: either there would be an increase in use or there wouldn't be.

However, just because there are only two opinions doesn't mean both of them are equally valid. One of the opinions is based on science and the other based on speculation and feelings.

There is no substantial evidence that decriminalisation leads to higher rates of use: http://norml.org/marijuana/personal/item/marijuana-decriminalization-its-impact-on-use-2

What content in my posts do you have issues with exactly?

It is impossible to say whether there would be increased use or not. I feel that there is every chance usage would increase. Either of us could be wrong.
http://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-drug-policy-roulette

gaffer91

tayto lover wrote: »

I am stuck between the de-criminalising and legalising at the moment and trying to make my mind up.

Tayto Lover I recall having a fairly heated debate with you a while back regarding whether or not to legalise cannabis, and as I remember you were very against it. What's brought the sudden change in heart?

tayto lover

gaffer91 wrote: »

Tayto Lover I recall having a fairly heated debate with you a while back regarding whether or not to legalise cannabis, and as I remember you were very against it. What's brought the sudden change in heart?

Last year I took up doing some voluntary work with young lads many of whom are very heavy cannabis smokers.
I also work in a Soup Kitchen from time to time and many of the people who use the facility use both cannabis and alcohol (some use heroin).
Many of the cannabis users have criminal records because of it and I don't like to see that happening. I would agree it should be de-criminalised. As i said earlier I am still undecided on whether it should be legalised as yet.

TPD

I don't see the argument for decriminalising as opposed to legalising. It's a step in the right direction (no longer making criminals out of drug users) but still leaves a lot of the drug industry unregulated.

As little faith as I have in the government to do anything right, I'd rather they have a go at managing the drug trade in the country than leaving it up to potentially violent criminal gangs.

suicide_circus

What's the craic in Portugal since they changed their stance on drugs few years back?

mikom

tayto lover wrote: »

It is impossible to say whether there would be increased use or not. I feel that there is every chance usage would increase. Either of us could be wrong.

If, and it's a big if the legalisation of cannabis led to an increase in usage.

Well, I'll put it like this.

1000 people using cannabis adulterated with god knows what to raise the weight and make it sparkle with "trichomes".
1000 people using cannabis not knowing the strain or potency.

or

2000 people using cannabis that is regulated like wine.

I know which future I'd like my children to be living in.
Do you?

tayto lover

mikom wrote: »

If, and it's a big if the legalisation of cannabis led to an increase in usage.

Well, I'll put it like this.

1000 people using cannabis adulterated with god knows what to raise the weight and make it sparkle with "trichomes".
1000 people using cannabis not knowing the strain or potency.

or

2000 people using cannabis that is regulated like wine.

I know which future I'd like my children to be living in.
Do you?

Yes thankfully I have no smokers at all.
I would like to see a proper debate at Govt / H.S.E./interested party level about the whole Cannabis issue which would include analysis of a cross section of the seized cannabis grass/resin/oil over the last few years, it's potency and make up. A proper picture and just not makey-uppy facts and statistics including the pros and cons for accepting it's legalisation and use.
I have read a lot about it and many of the articles are totally conflicting and confusing.

mikom

tayto lover wrote: »

Yes thankfully I have no smokers at all.

Any vapers?

I don't smoke.

EdanHewittt

The internet is plagued with threads like these...

Luckily I've read all the important ones, and gauged the general consensus as being:

Legalisation makes a lot more sense, etc

On a personal note, I disagree with herbal cannabis being legalized, as it is too potent and causes mental illness.

But hash has an anti-psychotic chemical component called cannabidiol that cancels out the schizoid effect of THC, so hash, and ONLY hash should be legalized

mikom

EdanHewittt wrote: »

On a personal note, I disagree with herbal cannabis being legalized, as it is too potent and causes mental illness.

But hash has an anti-psychotic chemical component called cannabidiol that cancels out the schizoid effect of THC, so hash, and ONLY hash should be legalized

Absolute horseshit.
Go back on the "net" and research why cannabidiol would be high in quantities of tested hash.

Then come back and tell me how legalised and regulated herbal cannabis can have the correct mix of chemicals for a balanced high.

tayto lover

mikom wrote: »

Any vapers?

I don't smoke.

No.
Music and a few quiet pints is their preference.

mikom

tayto lover wrote: »

No.
Music and a few quiet pints is their preference.

It's nice that they can enjoy that without looking over their shoulder.
Unless of course they listen to "westlife", then they should be looking over their shoulder

indough

is herbal cannabis what they're calling weed these days?

Yakult

tayto lover wrote: »

Last year I took up doing some voluntary work with young lads many of whom are very heavy cannabis smokers.
I also work in a Soup Kitchen from time to time and many of the people who use the facility use both cannabis and alcohol (some use heroin).
Many of the cannabis users have criminal records because of it and I don't like to see that happening. I would agree it should be de-criminalised. As i said earlier I am still undecided on whether it should be legalised as yet.

I dont think we are ready for full legalization yet. But definitely should be decriminalized and see where that goes after a few years.

ScumLord

EdanHewittt wrote: »

But hash has an anti-psychotic chemical component called cannabidiol that cancels out the schizoid effect of THC, so hash, and ONLY hash should be legalized

That makes no sense when you think about it. Hash is just a purified version of weed, weed includes the plant material, it's the flower of the plant. Hash removes the plant so your just left with just the goo the flower produces which is the drug your looking for. How could hash pick up a new chemical in the process of this removal? It doesn't that chemical was always there.

Ash.J.Williams

ScumLord wrote: »

That makes no sense when you think about it. Hash is just a purified version of weed, weed includes the plant material, it's the flower of the plant. Hash removes the plant so your just left with just the goo the flower produces which is the drug your looking for. How could hash pick up a new chemical in the process of this removal? It doesn't that chemical was always there.

i haven't seen any facts on this, but i have heard that the high yield/turnover growhouses, produce a high THC/Low canaboids product. Perhaps if weed was grown legally and commercially the balance would be restored?

tayto lover

Interesting articles on the "War on Drugs" --

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfcwauqlqlid/rss2/

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/04/business/in-rethinking-the-war-on-drugs-start-with-the-numbers.html?pagewanted=all

http://homepage.eircom.net/~odyssey/Politics/Liberty/Drug_War.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18686314

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/iv-drip/losing-the-war-on-drugs-8121859.html

Will the debate just be confined to cannabis or will/should it take in all drug use?

ScumLord

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

i haven't seen any facts on this, but i have heard that the high yield/turnover growhouses, produce a high THC/Low canaboids product. Perhaps if weed was grown legally and commercially the balance would be restored?

That's what they're doing in medical dispensaries in the states, you'll see a card beside the weed telling you it's THC/CBD percentages. It seems you can buy weed for your specific need based on how balanced or unbalanced the THC/CBD content is.

EdanHewittt

mikom wrote: »

Absolute horseshit.
Go back on the "net" and research why cannabidiol would be high in quantities of tested hash.

Then come back and tell me how legalised and regulated herbal cannabis can have the correct mix of chemicals for a balanced high.

I know from personal experience, not from reading some article on the internet. Besides there is a paper online that researches the balancing effect of cannabidiol has when mixed with THC.

I am too lazy to scavenger hunt for it, but I've read it, and it further bolsters my stance that hash is the only cannabis that should be smoked.

The strains of weed / herbal out there that I've tried are lethal. They are called AK47 and other such names for a reason - they cause paranoia that some, at first will find amusing and novel, but in the long run make you psychotic.

NEVER had that problem with hash. It was always a balanced mix of the anti-psychotic chemical cannabidiol versus schizo-inducing THC.

As a sidenote, this is why drugs are so controversial. Because we all disagree with each other. Our bodies and minds are all different.

If anything, the legalization of exploring one's mind should be made legal, not just simply: legalize all drugs.

srsly78

More nonsense assertions. There are so many kinds of hash, strong and weak, body vs head high etc. Exactly the same as with the herbal preparation.

mikom

EdanHewittt wrote: »

I know from personal experience, not from reading some article on the internet. Besides there is a paper online that researches the balancing effect of cannabidiol has when mixed with THC.

I am too lazy to scavenger hunt for it, but I've read it, and it further bolsters my stance that hash is the only cannabis that should be smoked.

The strains of weed / herbal out there that I've tried are lethal. They are called AK47 and other such names for a reason - they cause paranoia that some, at first will find amusing and novel, but in the long run make you psychotic.

NEVER had that problem with hash. It was always a balanced mix of the anti-psychotic chemical cannabidiol versus schizo-inducing THC.

As a sidenote, this is why drugs are so controversial. Because we all disagree with each other. Our bodies and minds are all different.

If anything, the legalization of exploring one's mind should be made legal, not just simply: legalize all drugs.

Cannabidiol is the leveller to Tetrahydrocannabinol.
Think of Cannabidiol as the stone (down) and Tetrahydrocannabinol as the high (up).

Cannabidiol also known as CBN is produced by the ageing process (you can think of it like a rust or oxidisation process).
So Cannabidiol and is usually more higher in hashish............ or properly cured weed.
Hashish is processed and compacted thus speeding up the oxidisation, and it is then transported to these isles.
Time spent in transport and storage increases the oxidisation and with it the up the levels of cannabidiol and decreases the levels of Tetrahydrocannabinol.
This is why you believe hash to be the only level type of cannabis product.

Properly cured herbal cannabis can have whatever mix of Tetrahydrocannabinol and Cannabidiol you wish, should you take your time with it.
The problem with prohibition is that herbal cannabis is invariably cut too early and rarely if ever cured, so you end up with the Tetrahydrocannabinol and cannabidiol mix all out of whack.

I hope that clears things up for you.
I would hate to see more misinformation being spread about this subject.

EdanHewittt wrote: »

NEVER had that problem with hash. It was always a balanced mix of the anti-psychotic chemical cannabidiol versus schizo-inducing THC.

Now you know why.

Oranage2

Good news is they're still fighting the good fight against no amplifiers in Temple bar

ScumLord

EdanHewittt wrote: »

NEVER had that problem with hash. It was always a balanced mix of the anti-psychotic chemical cannabidiol versus schizo-inducing THC.

What kind of hash are you talking about? Hash is mostly much stronger than weed as it's a purified version.

Ash.J.Williams

ScumLord wrote: »

What kind of hash are you talking about? Hash is mostly much stronger than weed as it's a purified version.

sorry could you elaborate on that? i must have missed something

foreign proper hash?

tayto lover

THC and Cannabidiol

http://www.ch.ic.ac.uk/vchemlib/mim/bristol/thc/thc_text.htm

http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/pdq/cam/cannabis/patient/page2

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/197/4/285.abstract

ArseLtd

Our good friend Ming just put this on facebook

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/15/uruguay-marijuana-law_n_2139792.html

I think once the over 50's in Ireland see that the US is legalising they will come around too. Alot of people of that age group and over think the sun shines from that places arse. Which is probably why RTE said nothing about legalisation in Washington and Colorado when it happened but went on to report how a grow house was found down the country which is hardly big news.

Haelium

Let's say for a second that cannabis is a hard drug(Which it's not)
Why does it matter? What gives people the right to stop other people from putting something into their own body?

I reserve the right to do cyanide if I feel like it. If your argument is based on health expenses brought back to the tax payer, then I would argue that by that logic suicide should be criminalised.

Would you agree that people prone to self harm should be put in prison?

mikom

Haelium wrote: »

If your argument is based on health expenses brought back to the tax payer, then I would argue that by that logic suicide should be criminalised.

The sad thing is up until 1993 suicide was illegal.
This country is fumbling its way out of the dark ages........... too slowly though.

ToddyDoody

First Donegal, now this. Sort it out lads.

tayto lover

mikom wrote: »

The sad thing is up until 1993 suicide was illegal.
This country is fumbling its way out of the dark ages........... too slowly though.

Years ago you wouldn't be allowed bury a suicide victim in consecrated church ground which was a scandal. I remember a neighbour being buried in a field adjacent to the cemetery. Disgraceful.

mikom

tayto lover wrote: »

Years ago you wouldn't be allowed bury a suicide victim in consecrated church ground which was a scandal. I remember a neighbour being buried in a field adjacent to the cemetery. Disgraceful.

Meanwhile the PP was probably bustin' young lads holes wide open.

ArseLtd

mikom wrote: »

bustin' young lads holes wide open.

mikom

ArseLtd wrote: »

That was the PP's face.

The young lad at the receiving end......... :eek:

ScumLord

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

sorry could you elaborate on that? i must have missed something

foreign proper hash?

The hash sold in Ireland isn't hash by the standards of most other countries, we have soap which at best is 25% hash the rest is fillers. It's pure muck, gods knows what they put in it from simple shoe polish to sleeping pills.

bedrock#1

ScumLord wrote: »

The hash sold in Ireland isn't hash by the standards of most other countries, we have soap which at best is 25% hash the rest is fillers. It's pure muck, gods knows what they put in it from simple shoe polish to sleeping pills.

Great article here detailing the contents of soapbar.

http://www.addictionireland.net/soapbar_hashish.html

Research by the Edinburgh University Cannabis Resin Impurity Study Project (CRISP) discovered cannabis resin can be up to between 80pc and 90pc impure. Neil Montgomery’s study Cannabis Resin Impurities Survey Project (CRISP 2002), conducted preliminary research in 2001 on five samples of Moroccan ‘soap-bar’ resin provided by Customs & Excise.

It was found that the psychoactive adulterants included, glue (benzene & toluene), ketamine, caffeine, & aspirin – while other additives, varying in toxicity, included liquorice, milk powder, boot polish, beeswax, turpentine, henna, vinyl, motor oil, dyes, pine resin, animal ****, soil, & phenols.

Also-

If anyone's interested the UK Drug Policy Commission had their annual conference last week. Most of the talks are available to stream from their website. Cutting edge science and policy.

http://www.ukdpc.org.uk/ukdpc-conference/

EdanHewittt

bedrock#1 wrote: »

Great article here detailing the contents of soapbar.

http://www.addictionireland.net/soapbar_hashish.html



Also-

If anyone's interested the UK Drug Policy Commission had their annual conference last week. Most of the talks are available to stream from their website. Cutting edge science and policy.

http://www.ukdpc.org.uk/ukdpc-conference/

I am not talking about the type of hash that goes through at least 100 sets of hands because nobody wants to smoke it.

I am talking about fine hash that gets into a dealers hands direct from the lorry, and then straight to the consumer. A grade pollen, without henna, and vinyls and bits of plastic in it.

That's the stuff that should be decriminalized / legalized. I will protest the notion strong strains of purple haze and "AK47" are made legal. They're just too strong.

It's like selling poitin in off licenses across the country. It's too strong in proof for people to drink.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poit%C3%ADn

srsly78

EdanHewittt wrote: »

I am talking about fine hash that gets into a dealers hands direct from the lorry, and then straight to the consumer. A grade pollen, without henna, and vinyls and bits of plastic in it.

Marinated in the finest diesel during it's journey

ScumLord

EdanHewittt wrote: »

I am talking about fine hash that gets into a dealers hands direct from the lorry, and then straight to the consumer. A grade pollen, without henna, and vinyls and bits of plastic in it.

I still think there's some confusion with regards hash/weed/pollen. The pollen of the cannabis plant isn't psychoactive for a start. As far as I know pollen refers to what they make hash out of, they separate as much trichomes from the left over material as they can, this is pollen. They then compress and and heat that to turn it into hash. Cannabis needs to be heated to release it's high, eating weed or pollen won't get you high but eating hash will.

Hash should be the strongest form of cannabis you can get your hands on bar oil. Way stronger than weed or pollen. So it makes no sense for me to hear you say hash is safer than weed unless your buying crap hash which you more than likely are as the only time I've had good hash in Ireland is when I got it from someone importing it direct from Morocco for his own personal use.

Ash.J.Williams

yeah you have to forgive us for thinking of hash as low quality crap!! It's been a while since i've seen the goodstuff!

Capt'n Midnight

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Lets be honest FF and FG would never allow Ireland to become liberal.

Father Ted: There was a time when the police in this country were friends of the church; speeding tickets torn up, drunk driving charges quashed, even a blind eye turned to the odd murder!


I can remember when ballot papers had numbers on them
when a man could not be accused of raping his wife
when people were still admitted to the Magdalene laundries


If there is an elderly relative refusing to pop their clogs and hand you the farm can you still get them committed to a looney bin on the say so of a priest and doctor ?

Is it still the case that getting caught with a spiff in a pub will probably cost you €300 when a cigarette would cost you €3,000 ?

Things change. Progress isn't the big stuff, it's all the little things that really add up.

ScumLord

I wonder what would happen if the UK legalised it and it was freely available in Northern Ireland? Would Ireland be forced to legalise too?

RobbieTheRobber

ScumLord wrote: »

I wonder what would happen if the UK legalised it and it was freely available in Northern Ireland? Would Ireland be forced to legalise too?

No just a whole lot more people would go shopping in the north!

dd972

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWWLklspOao

here's Noam Chomsky's tuppenny worth on the matter

charlemont

ScumLord wrote: »

The hash sold in Ireland isn't hash by the standards of most other countries, we have soap which at best is 25% hash the rest is fillers. It's pure muck, gods knows what they put in it from simple shoe polish to sleeping pills.

I actually found a small spring in Hash recently, It was fairly small, Much smaller than one from a lighter, There was also a strange perfume smell too. Something wasn't right there, I ended up on the bowl with a dodgy stomach from the crap.

NIMAN

No shame in admitting we have lost the war on drugs. Every nation is in the same situation, just that many won't admit it.

ArseLtd

People and government need to realise that there is a demand for drugs and it needs to be met. If not by lawful means, it will be done by unlawful means ie criminals.

Drug users are not typical criminals, they are your neighbours, friends and family, co workers ... people that you talk to every day. Perfectly functioning members of society. We need to start by legalising cannabis.