Baileys Coffee and Baileys Cheesecake

Radharc na Sleibhte

Hi,
I'm just wondering do you need a wine/alcohol licence to serve Baileys Coffee or Baileys Cheesecake and the like?

The Hill Billy

Nope.

Edit: Sincerest apologies - I only saw the cheescake bit & missed the Bailey's coffee part.

Bailey's Coffee - Probably need a licence.
Bailey's Cheescake - Nope.

rubadub

I would expect there is a limit where it becomes necessary. Baileys is 17% alcohol made up of basic ingredients of whiskey, cream & sugar, so a 'baileys coffee' is not overly different than an 'Irish Coffee', if you add enough baileys that is. Kids can buy shandy with tiny amounts of alcohol, but if your baileys coffee was over say 2% it might be liable.

You can see here beer

Exceeding 0.5% volume but not exceeding 1.2% volume

this has zero duty. There are lots of others, but its an indication that there probably is a cut off %.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/excise/duties/excise-duty-rates.html

As the cheesecake is a food and would have less in it I would expect it to be exempt. You see Jack Daniels sauces on sale with no limitations.

The guys in the beer & wine forum usually know all the finicky laws.

Honey-ec

rubadub wrote: »

You see Jack Daniels sauces on sale with no limitations.

Off topic, but my brother in law had a massive argument with a particularly vigilant checkout operator in Dunnes who wouldn't sell him JD barbeque sauce cause he'd no ID on him a few years back...

Radharc na Sleibhte

I can find nothing online at all.
I'll go with it and wait for someone to tell me im wrong.

The Hill Billy

As cheesecake would be defined as food it would not come under general licensing regulations - as Rubadub hinted at. Why do you ask? Do you have a specific instance that you have issue with?

themadchef

Baileys served on its own is liable Vat why would making it a coffee change the game?

The only time things are altered are when the alcohol is added to food. It is often impossible to judge the alcohol content of food. Alcohol becomes a "flavour".

With a Baileys coffee there is an exact revenue measure per coffee. Each customer knows exactly what he/she is getting in every restaurant \ pub in the country as we all use the same measures. Or at least they should use the measure. If you dont see them use it then vote with your feet.

Cheesecake is the most subjective thing on the planet. It can have a splash or half a bottle or none at all (Heaven forbid they use some rip off cheap stuff, shudder)



My gut feeling would be that you would need a licence to sell it. I cant see a situation where you would not. Rule of thumb is if it is food and you are using cutlery you are in the clear, if not check with Revenue.

Mellor

I'd imagine you don't need one to sell cheesecake as its a food.

But a Baileys coffee is an alcoholic drink, so I would of assumed that you did need one. 200ml of coffee plus 35ml of baileys is 2.5% ABV btw

vic20

You've no problem with the cheesecake.

You need a licence to sell alcohol so you need one to sell Bailey's coffee.

A premises licensed to sell alcohol must display said licence.
If you decide to chance it you only need one pissed off customer/neighbor/competitor to make a complaint and you're up the creek...

More info here http://www.barkeeper.ie/page.asp?menu=0&page=796

pickarooney

Honey-ec wrote: »

Off topic, but my brother in law had a massive argument with a particularly vigilant checkout operator in Dunnes who wouldn't sell him JD barbeque sauce cause he'd no ID on him a few years back...

There's absolutely no alcohol in that; I checked the other day. There's 'Jack Daniels flavouring' but no booze.

vic20

Not sure why the poster described the person as a "particularly vigilant checkout operator"... 'incredibly thick' would have been much better.

pickarooney wrote: »

There's absolutely no alcohol in that; I checked the other day. There's 'Jack Daniels flavouring' but no booze.

rubadub

themadchef wrote: »

Baileys served on its own is liable Vat why would making it a coffee change the game?

Because if it was below a certain limit I expect it is exempt. Many fruits will have naturally occurring alcohol in them.

themadchef wrote: »

With a Baileys coffee there is an exact revenue measure per coffee. Each customer knows exactly what he/she is getting in every restaurant \ pub in the country as we all use the same measures. Or at least they should use the measure.

Pubs do not necessarily use the same measures. A standard shot of vodka or whiskey is typically 35.5ml. A baileys is usually 50ml in pubs. This topic came up before in the beer & spirits forum where somebody questioned if pubs can legally sell 25ml shots here (which is the standard/typical size in the UK). It was said they could at the time, but noted the price should be based on the same 35.5ml price. If you look at the laws they mention 35.5ml as the measure of alcohol to be listed on price lists legally required by pubs. But the standard baileys optic is 50ml. The pubs also only have to display a price for 1 whiskey, or 1 stout at 35.5ml. So I am not sure they even have to have a price up for stuff they only sell at 25ml.

Also I expect there has to be a legal definition of food. Some cocktails I have gotten are more like desserts as there is so much ice cream in them, but certainly very boozy. You obviously cannot just put a crumb of cake in a bottle of rum and call it rum cake, so again I expect there has to be a cross over point.

I am not sure a licence is needed to serve booze anyway, it might only be needed to sell it. I have heard reports of 'free' beers in barbers in recent times, while waiting for your haircut. You might be able to give out a 'free dash' in your coffee. I think this came up before when somebody wanted to give out samples at a trade show.

pickarooney wrote: »

There's absolutely no alcohol in that; I checked the other day. There's 'Jack Daniels flavouring' but no booze.

This one lists it, I know think there are a few types.
Jack Daniels Smooth Original Barbeque Sauce 275G

Water,Dextrose ,Concentrated Tomato Puree ,Concentrated Raisin Juice ,White Wine Vinegar ,Concentrated Orange Juice ,Salt ,Concentrated Lemon Juice ,Onion Purée ,Jack Daniels Whisky® (1%) ,Modified Cornflour ,Colour: Ammonia Caramel ,Dried Garlic ,Dates ,Concentrated Tamarind Extract ,Whisky Flavour ,Stabiliser: Xanthan Gum ,Smoke Flavour ,Chilli Powder

vic20 wrote: »

Not sure why the poster described the person as a "particularly vigilant checkout operator"... 'incredibly thick' would have been much better.

I think with recent laws the person serving can be the one fined, rather than the store. So if they are in doubt it is just easier to say no. I got refused club shandy when I was a kid because it had low alcohol in it. This is another reason why heavily diluted baileys would presumably be legal.

Still can't find Irish law but it does come up elsewhere
http://www.michigan.gov/mdard/0,4610,7-125-50772_45851-240577--,00.html

Can I make and sell candies that contain alcohol, like truffles or liqueur flavored, cream-filled chocolates, under the Cottage Food Law?

No. Under the Food Law, confections that contain alcohol are considered "adulterated" and cannot be sold in Michigan. You can make and sell confections that use flavoring, flavoring extract (e.g., rum flavoring or lemon flavoring), but not actual alcoholic beverages (e.g., rum extract, rum, sparkling wine/Champagne, Grand Marnier, Chambourd, etc.). See Michigan Food Law - 289.1105 for more information.

This cottage food is presumably what the OP might have fallen under if he was living there. -So there might even be different laws depending on if you are a small time baker or a factory.

pickarooney

rubadub wrote: »

This one lists it, I know think there are a few types.
Jack Daniels Smooth Original Barbeque Sauce 275G

That is strange. That's the name of the sauvce I bought. The ingredient list is in French on a white sticker over the original English. I must peel it off and see what's underneath.

JD's own website has this disclaimer:

JACK DANIEL'S® EZ MARINADER, BARBECUE SAUCES AND STEAK SAUCES DO NOT CONTAIN ALCOHOL

rubadub

pickarooney wrote: »

JD's own website has this disclaimer:

They are probably legally able to say that. Its probably below the legal limit for sale and so can declare it free.

I copied that info from tescos website, but am pretty sure I saw it on a bottle before.

Mysupermarket.co.uk has lists too.

Jack Daniel's Barbeque Sauce Smooth Original (260g)

Water, Dextrose, White Wine Vinegar, Concentrated Tomato Puree, Concentrated Raisin Juice, Salt, Concentrated Orange Juice, Jack Daniels Whiskey (2%), Concentrated Lemon Juice, Dried Onion, Date Paste, Dried Garlic, Concentrated Tamarind Exy=tract, Modified Cornflour, Colour (Ammonia Caramel), Whiskey Flavour, Stabiliser (Xanthan Gum), Preservative (Potassium Sorbate), Smoke Flavour, Chilli Powder.

And a 27 year old refused it in tesco
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/man-27-banned-from-buying-boozy-156766#ixzz1ZS8bZJKR

A 27-YEAR-OLD barbecue fan was banned from buying Jack Daniel’s sauce because it contained 1% alcohol and he couldn’t prove his age.

Arriving at the checkout with sausages, burgers, ribs, buns and the barbecue sauce, Simon Hood was shocked when staff refused to sell him the boozy relish.

The embarrassed marketing manager, who had planned a party with pals, said: “I initially thought the man serving me was joking when he asked for ID.

“I know they have to be careful selling alcohol but it’s not like I was going to go and get drunk in the car park on barbecue sauce.”

He added: “If I was a hoodie looking to get drunk I certainly wouldn’t be buying barbecue sauce with just 1% alcohol.

“I’d have to guzzle hundreds of bottles to get any buzz. And by that time, the sauce – not the alcohol – would have made me sick.” Simon, who had not brought his driving licence, later complained to Tesco Customer Services about the incident at the Chineham store, near Basingstoke, Hants, and received an email reading: “I can understand how annoying that must have been for you.

“However, we do have to ask for ID for any produce that contains alcohol, no matter the quantity of the alcohol in the product.”

A Tesco spokesman added: “A till prompt would have reminded the cashier to check he was old enough. Anyone who looks under 25 will be asked for ID.”

But Simon, from Sherfield-on-Loddon, Hants, said: “Tesco were being over-the-top. Next they will be asking for ID when customers buy their Christmas pudding.”

I do know on ingredients lists they do not have to legally declare stuff below a certain %. There might be a different thing about deeming things "alcohol free", e.g. most alcohol free beers have booze in them.

pickarooney

Are we talking about the Heinz-made ones? I imagine Muslims and other customers with a zero alcohol tolerance would be pretty put out about something like that.

rubadub

pickarooney wrote: »

I imagine Muslims and other customers with a zero alcohol tolerance would be pretty put out about something like that.

But the label clearly states it has alcohol in it. If they are that concerned they will not just trust some website which could be out of date. Recipes change all the time, as any vegan would tell you.

Some might not mind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_dietary_laws#Intoxicants

there is some debate about whether the prohibition extends to dishes in which the alcohol would be cooked off or if it would be practically impossible to consume enough of the food to become intoxicated.

You often hear chefs etc talking about alcohol being "cooked off" but it is very difficult to do this -ask a chemical engineer not some cook. So this sauce would be equivalent to it, impossible to get intoxicated on it.

Radharc na Sleibhte

Thanks for the help guys.
Yeah it's just a coffee shop we have and I was only asking the question in the hope someone would say, no problem.
I think deep down I knew the answer.
But if a baileys coffee is 2.8% and I made a crazy strong cheesecake or Christmas pudding or sherry trifle or something of the sort it just shows the grey area that exists there IMO. If I put cream on top, could I call it a dessert? :-D
Anyway, thanks for all your replies.

Seaneh

rubadub wrote: »

But the label clearly states it has alcohol in it. If they are that concerned they will not just trust some website which could be out of date. Recipes change all the time, as any vegan would tell you.

Some might not mind
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_dietary_laws#Intoxicants


You often hear chefs etc talking about alcohol being "cooked off" but it is very difficult to do this -ask a chemical engineer not some cook. So this sauce would be equivalent to it, impossible to get intoxicated on it.

The sauce is 2% jack daniels, which would be 0.86% alcohol when it begins cooking (JD being 43% abv).

Those sauces are cooked, usually for a few hours at high temps, so the alcohol would evaporate pretty quickly. So I'd imagine it is in fact 0% alcohol.