Should alcohol be banned based on available evidence?

Agricola

Alcohol isnt the problem, its our society's juvenile attitude to it. There are countless countries where this isnt even a debate. Why is it a debate here?

Change the attitudes to drink. Instill kids with a new perspective on it. Change the "Its great to be a crazy Irish drunk, shure Im great craic so i am" idea.

Furious_George

The answer isn't banning alcohol, its taking a zero tolerance approach to policing drunken behaviour.

On the spot fines for antisocial behaviour....including loud shouting/singing etc after a certain hour (you can do that in the pubs and clubs), if you are out and about too drunk to look after yourself a night in the cells. Tougher penalties for repeat offenders perhaps including city centre bans after a certain hour might help.

Perhaps imposing fines for establishments seen to be serving alcohol to people who are too drunk. As much as I hate to say it perhaps increase the price of alcohol also. It is a prohibiting factor for me....I love my pints but don't do it as regularly due to the cost which probably saves my health somewhat and I don't like to drink to where I lose control anymore.

The main thing would be to commit the resources to implement this change and to be consistent with it so that the public realise that if their drinking becomes a problem for others. I may sound like a kill joy and I have to admit when I was younger I drank copious amounts of alcohol and was engaged in antisocial behaviour when drunk such as fighting, probably urinating in the street, being a general pest. If I was sure that even by being too drunk and noisy in the street there was a high probability of getting an on the spot fine (or worse) I think I might have been better behaved.

Also legalise it, I don't smoke weed any more (except on a trip to amsterdam this year) as I wouldnt come in contact with anyone who sells it and I dont like to break the law. All it does is mellow you out, I have never met anyone or heard of anyone who became aggressive on weed alone. Of course you will have stoners but we have them anyway. All legalising it will do is allow people who would like to smoke a joint once in a while to do it legally, instead of perhaps having a few drinks. These people will not be going into work stoned, no more than they are going in drunk at the minute. Bring it in like they are in provinces in the Netherlands, where you have to be a resident to buy it, tax the sh1t out of it, allow people to grow one plant. I can see no downside.

tldr; zero tolerance approach to drunken antisocial behaviour, increase in price of alcohol, legalise weed.

Knasher

mathepac wrote: »

I haven't said that. You might want to point out how many others have.

You do realize that there are more people sharing their opinions here than just you right? I didn't even quote you so I've no idea where you got the idea I was implying you said that. The people who have expressed this opinion said:

DazMarz wrote: »

There is nothing to gain from making alcohol illegal, except for enterprising criminals who will make an absolute killing in providing cheap, dangerous liquor to the public at large.

and

Yakult wrote: »

Exactly, prohibition does not favor anyone other than the criminals.

and I agree with them.

mathepac wrote: »

That may be your opinion and you're entitled to hold it, but I'm afraid there is nothing to back it up.

Hence why I prefaced that statement by making it clear that it was my opinion. I don't think my hypothesis is that much of a stretch, but if I were aware of data to back it up I wouldn't have declared it as an opinion to start with.

Furious_George

Agricola wrote: »

Alcohol isnt the problem, its our society's juvenile attitude to it. There are countless countries where this isnt even a debate. Why is it a debate here?

Change the attitudes to drink. Instill kids with a new perspective on it. Change the "Its great to be a crazy Irish drunk, shure Im great craic so i am" idea.

I agree with this 100%. How can we go about this though. The drink aware ads are a good first step but they aren't effective. Some sort of campaign is required which targets children as soon as they hit secondary school and not just to throw facts at them and say don't drink until you are 18, remember your pledge and all that ****e. It really has to try and change attitudes towards it so that if someone is really drunk, their peers look down on them and let them know it.

TPD

mathepac wrote: »

I am responding to a poster who thinks being a consenting drinker amongst other consenting drinkers is OK. I am challenging that thinking. Does this pose you some insurmountable intellectual dilemma?

Drunks & stoners must at some stage come into contact with others who are not in their intoxicated state. Is it OK with you if their behaviour when intoxicated effects our lives?

So, in answer to a yes / no question, you choose to insult my intelligence. Noted.

If I am the victim of a crime committed by somebody who is drunk or stoned, then I would want that person prosecuted for the crime they have committed. Nobody is saying it's OK to commit crime if you're intoxicated, which is what you seem to be implying.

mathepac

Jaxx Clean Bill wrote: »

Instead you would be paying the dole money for the 1000's of bar workers, brewery workers, delivery drivers etc etc who would be out of work due to drink no longer being served along with the increased presence of the illegal drink trade which will make streets more unsafe with crime leves increasing massively due to the increase in illegal drink supplying gangs etc.

Drink related assaults on innocent people are very small, yes they happen but so do non-drink related ones. The vast majority of drink related assaults, fights etc are not one sided and both parties involved usually contribute.
...

So is it safe to surmise that you work in a pub / own one / work for Diageo / Tesco etc?

Another alternative might be to levy extra charges on pubs and places / organisations that sell drink in order to pay for the clean-up operations for streets, people and hospital admissions, with the sellers free to pass these price increases on to the drinkers, so the the clean ups, treatment, assaults, accidents due to drink are funded by drinkers. Start at say €15 per pint and work upwards until the problems resolve themselves.

As soon as this reaches a state of balance, legalise whatever the public demands using a similar model.

Jaxx Clean Bill wrote: »

... Stepping over a bit of p*ss or vomit every now and again is hardly the end of the world, seeing a bit of vomit usually brings a laugh out of us and few comments like "he has seen better days" etc.

You may be acclimatised to living that way and see it as part of the price you have to pay for drunks in society, however it doesn't appeal to me.

mathepac

mathepac wrote: »

So is it safe to surmise that you work in a pub / own one / work for Diageo / Tesco etc?

Another alternative might be to levy extra charges on pubs and places / organisations that sell drink in order to pay for the clean-up operations for streets, people and hospital admissions, with the sellers free to pass these price increases on to the drinkers, so the the clean ups, treatment, assaults, accidents due to drink are funded by drinkers. Start at say €15 per pint and work upwards until the problems resolve themselves. As soon as this reaches a state of balance, legalise whatever the public demands using a similar model.

No I have absolutely no connection to the drink trade apart from the fact going out drinking is extremely enjoyable and I do it regularly

Why should I have to pay 15 euro for a pint for someone else who causes trouble, its just nonsense.

I actually want drink prices reduced as they are already too high in this country.

mathepac wrote: »

You may be acclimatised to living that way and see it as part of the price you have to pay for drunks in society, however it doesn't appeal to me.

I just have the attitude that's it happens to us all the odd time and its a non issue. How stepping around a small bit of vomit on the street once in a while has such a big effect on you're life I don't know. I'm not saying its a nice thing to see, but its not something that's going to negatively effect you.

MaxSteele

mathepac wrote: »

So is it safe to surmise that you work in a pub / own one / work for Diageo / Tesco etc?

Another alternative might be to levy extra charges on pubs and places / organisations that sell drink in order to pay for the clean-up operations for streets, people and hospital admissions, with the sellers free to pass these price increases on to the drinkers, so the the clean ups, treatment, assaults, accidents due to drink are funded by drinkers. Start at say €15 per pint and work upwards until the problems resolve themselves.

As soon as this reaches a state of balance, legalise whatever the public demands using a similar model.
You may be acclimatised to living that way and see it as part of the price you have to pay for drunks in society, however it doesn't appeal to me.

You're trolling right ?

Why should I or anyone else pay extortionate prices because of the actions of a few idiots ? Make them pay. Fine them or whatever. Alcohol is already taxed to the gills and far overpriced already.

You sound almost agoraphobic.

If Irish society doesn't "appeal" to you then move abroad. Simple.

Furious_George

mathepac wrote: »

Another alternative might be to levy extra charges on pubs and places / organisations that sell drink in order to pay for the clean-up operations for streets, people and hospital admissions, with the sellers free to pass these price increases on to the drinkers, so the the clean ups, treatment, assaults, accidents due to drink are funded by drinkers.

There is already excise duty on alcohol on top of VAT. The most recent figures I'm finding for the full year is €826m in excise in 2010 on alcohol alone. This is separate from VAT which is higher again. This is down from over €1bn in 2008.

http://taxpolicy.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/11.22-General-Excise-Duties.pdf

http://taxpolicy.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/09.19b.pdf

I cant find the breakdown of VAT receipts and i am not claiming that it fully covers the total cost of the negative effects of drink but I am pointing out that the cleanups treatments assaults accidents are largely funded by the drinkers already.

This does not mean that an increase in the tax would be a bad thing as based on the statistics provided by the OP, it seams the monetary cost of alcohol abuse may be higher than the tax take. Also just because drinkers are paying higher tax on alcohol, it doesnt mean that we cannot tackle the problems associated with alcohol abuse. I think the majority of mature people who consume alcohol would be on board.

httpete

People who are saying drink doesn't cause that much problems are talking complete nonsense. There have been thousands of people killed over the last decade alone due to drink, countless more injured in some way.

I know of a fair few people who have got the sh*t kicked out of them by people hammered on alcohol. Two of them are lucky to be alive, separate incidents, both knocked unconscious and kicked in the head on the ground. I know a couple of people who are dead due to drink driving and two people who died directly from consumption of alcohol.

Alcohol causes an unbelievable amount of problems, it's one of the worst drugs there is, it's just so ingrained into society that the older generation don't realise how hypocritical they are being when they criticise drug-taking, yet they themselves have been imbibing a mild altering substance for decades.

If alcohol didn't exist and was invented tomorrow morning and distributed all over the country there would be national outrage at the effects it has on society.

jasonmcco

keithclancy wrote: »

It was the bit where you said:



RSA Campaigns for drink driving got a shed load of airtime/media coverage and have done over the years.

RSA has a staff of over 300 and a budget of nearly 45 million euros annually.

Does the government provide the same support in educating our children about the evils of alcohol i'm not sure. I doubt it but i'm not sure.

Would also wonder is there as much funding to educate about the ills of cigarettes?

If these 2 areas don't receive same or similar funding we would have to question our politicians motives and integrity. Are lobby groups supercedeing the well being of the people .

jasonmcco

TPD wrote: »

Do you actually believe that anyone thinks these examples would be OK?

Think he might............ scary.

jasonmcco

Furious_George wrote: »

There is already excise duty on alcohol on top of VAT. The most recent figures I'm finding for the full year is €826m in excise in 2010 on alcohol alone. This is separate from VAT which is higher again. This is down from over €1bn in 2008.

http://taxpolicy.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/11.22-General-Excise-Duties.pdf

http://taxpolicy.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/09.19b.pdf

I cant find the breakdown of VAT receipts and i am not claiming that it fully covers the total cost of the negative effects of drink but I am pointing out that the cleanups treatments assaults accidents are largely funded by the drinkers already.

This does not mean that an increase in the tax would be a bad thing as based on the statistics provided by the OP, it seams the monetary cost of alcohol abuse may be higher than the tax take. Also just because drinkers are paying higher tax on alcohol, it doesnt mean that we cannot tackle the problems associated with alcohol abuse. I think the majority of mature people who consume alcohol would be on board.

Monetary cost issue is not the most important issue here it's the peoples lives destroyed by alcohol.It's time people had the option of using a well documented less harmful drug called marijauna.

I believe marijauna suits the Irish personality alot better than alcohol does.
Drink is a curse and the facts are indisputable on that

Furious_George

jasonmcco wrote: »

Monetary cost issue is not the most important issue here it's the peoples lives destroyed by alcohol.It's time people had the option of using a well documented less harmful drug called marijauna.

I believe marijauna suits the Irish personality alot better than alcohol does.
Drink is a curse and the facts are indisputable on that

I agree except for saying drink is a curse. If enjoyed in moderation it is great. Earlier in the thread i advocated a campaign to target young people as soon as they hit secondary school to try and break the link in the irish psyche between "havn great craic" and gettn slaughtered. It needs to change because its doin huge damage to individuals and families.

I also think legalised and tightly regulated weed is the way to go. I dont smoke it any more in ireland because its illegal. I would definitely substitute alcohol for a wee spliff on occassion if it were legal. Would cause way way less problems than alcohol.

Herb Powell

httpete wrote: »

People who are saying drink doesn't cause that much problems are talking complete nonsense. There have been thousands of people killed over the last decade alone due to drink, countless more injured in some way.

I know of a fair few people who have got the sh*t kicked out of them by people hammered on alcohol. Two of them are lucky to be alive, separate incidents, both knocked unconscious and kicked in the head on the ground. I know a couple of people who are dead due to drink driving and two people who died directly from consumption of alcohol.

Alcohol causes an unbelievable amount of problems, it's one of the worst drugs there is, it's just so ingrained into society that the older generation don't realise how hypocritical they are being when they criticise drug-taking, yet they themselves have been imbibing a mild altering substance for decades.

If alcohol didn't exist and was invented tomorrow morning and distributed all over the country there would be national outrage at the effects it has on society.

This is going to be harsh, but that is entirely their own fuccking fault.

I have to laugh at people arguing how delightful the place would be if alcohol were to be banned. No more drunks, no more vomit, no more noise..... I mean, if it's illegal, no one would do it, right?? Would they fucck! Cannabis is illegal, but look how widespread its' use is anyway.

Making alcohol illegal merely drives it underground. I think people have no idea how easy and cheap it is to brew/make alcoholic drinks at home yourself. There would still be drunks. The problems would still be there. The difference is that the alcohol would be unregulated, and to be honest, more dangerous. It would solve none of the current problems.

It is the attitude in our country that is fuccked up. Nothing wrong with the alcohol. I really enjoy beer, and drink responsibly, as do almost all my friends. So GTFO with this prohibition shiite :P

Markcheese

+1 on prohibition... We can't stop drug dealing,and drug use .. Making hooch aint that hard we couldn't stop it's use and distribution... If we really want to restrict it's availability and social use , I'm sure the state could, I don't know wether that's a great idea either though (look at some of the scandanavian states and their alcohol issues)

httpete

Herb Powell wrote: »

This is going to be harsh, but that is entirely their own fuccking fault.

I have to laugh at people arguing how delightful the place would be if alcohol were to be banned. No more drunks, no more vomit, no more noise..... I mean, if it's illegal, no one would do it, right?? Would they fucck! Cannabis is illegal, but look how widespread its' use is anyway.

Making alcohol illegal merely drives it underground. I think people have no idea how easy and cheap it is to brew/make alcoholic drinks at home yourself. There would still be drunks. The problems would still be there. The difference is that the alcohol would be unregulated, and to be honest, more dangerous. It would solve none of the current problems.

It is the attitude in our country that is fuccked up. Nothing wrong with the alcohol. I really enjoy beer, and drink responsibly, as do almost all my friends. So GTFO with this prohibition shiite :P

How is it someone's fault if they get their head kicked in by a group of lads who are hammered drunk? How is it someone's fault if they are killed by a drink driver.

Banning alcohol (which will never happen) obviously wouldn't completely get rid of it, because as you say it will be driven underground. But making it illegal and driving it underground would massively reduce the number of drinkers. If drink never existed and was brought in tomorrow and the government immediately classed it as a serious drug (which it is) and made it an offence that carried a criminal conviction you would find f*ck all people deciding to take up drinking. All the older generation would be outraged at this new drug that leads to such anti-social behaviour....However in the universe we live in alcohol has been around for centuries so the same people who be outraged at it in the above circumstances are instead knocking down lots of drink week in, week out.

All the uproar over the herbal highs a few years ago and they are not a patch on the damage caused by drink. Auld ones ringing up Joe Duffy giving out f*ck, total hypocrites when they and their husbands would see nothing wrong drinking a load of pints/spirits/wine.

By the way, I drink a fair bit myself, I'm no pioneer, but I can recognize the damage drink has caused to society.

Furious_George

httpete wrote: »

All the uproar over the herbal highs a few years ago and they are not a patch on the damage caused by drink. Auld ones ringing up Joe Duffy giving out f*ck, total hypocrites when they and their husbands would see nothing wrong drinking a load of pints/spirits/wine.

The problem with those herbal highs is that no-one knows what was being put in them. I've seen someone have a fit, literally convulsing on the floor after smoking too much of one of them. Paramedics had to be called. When some of the head shop products were being banned in Ireland the asians were just throwing together some other concoction and sending it over here.

At least weed is natural and has been around a long time.

Sobanek

Everything should be available to people in a healthy quantity. Banning alcohol is stupid, I like to have an occasional pint or two which does no harm to anyone.

httpete

Furious_George wrote: »

The problem with those herbal highs is that no-one knows what was being put in them. I've seen someone have a fit, literally convulsing on the floor after smoking too much of one of them. Paramedics had to be called. When some of the head shop products were being banned in Ireland the asians were just throwing together some other concoction and sending it over here.

At least weed is natural and has been around a long time.

I wasn't saying anything about weed...weed is not even close to alcohol when it comes to damage to society.

BOHtox

mathepac wrote: »

i if you're locked or stoned and can't go to work, that's OK?

Obviously not.

mathepac wrote: »

If you're locked or stoned (whitey) and throw up all over the bus or taxi or restaurant, that's OK too?

Obviously not.

mathepac wrote: »

If you're locked or stoned and injure yourself in a fall or trip and break a bone you don't want an ambulance, doctor or hospital called?

Obviously not.

mathepac wrote: »

If you die because you choke on your own vomit, we should tell your family & friends that it's OK and not to be upset?

Obviously not.

mathepac wrote: »

If you injure or kill someone in a drunken brawl or run someone down when you're stoned at the wheel, that's OK too because you are exercising your freedom?

Obviously not.

mathepac wrote: »

No to legalising any other "recreational drugs" until we sort out the social and medical disaster that is alcohol consumption.

Obviously not.

Right now you're the biggest asset to the other side of the argument.

Furious_George

httpete wrote: »

I wasn't saying anything about weed...weed is not even close to alcohol when it comes to damage to society.

I know dude, we are in agreement on the weed front. I'm just saying that I never trusted the herbal highs or any other head shop products. Id prefer alcohol to them because in moderation alcohol is fine. God only knows what's in some of the herbal highs. I was just differentiating between weed and the herbal highs. Anyway back to work with me or I wont be able to afford my few pints at all

Herb Powell

httpete wrote: »

How is it someone's fault if they get their head kicked in by a group of lads who are hammered drunk? How is it someone's fault if they are killed by a drink driver.

Oh shiit, I should have highlighted the bit I meant-the bit where he said he knew "2 people who died as a direct result of alcohol consumption".

Obviously the other examples are not the fault of the victims, I done goofed.

Playboy

If you were to look at the issue from a health and societal impact then it probably should be. It cause more problems than it solves but prohibition just doesnt work. Alcohol is too ingrained in western societies over thousands of years which makes banning it almost impossible. Also if you have been to countries where people dont drink... on the surface its great as there is no hassle but after a while you figure out that there is an awfully lot of very frustrated people knocking about. We all need some form of release.. alcohol, cannabis, exercise, xtc or whatever.. without it people would go off the deep end imo

Chuck Stone

mathepac wrote: »

Banning alcohol would have an immediate benefit for me.

Amazing how you can predict the future. Truly amazing.

I wouldn't have to pay for drunks clogging up emergency services and staff in hospitals at week-ends, step through pools of urine and vomit and could walk the streets safely after closing time at night, without running the risk of being accosted or assaulted by drunks.. herp de derp

Ah yes - sweet naivety.

You sound a lot like this poor fool:

"The reign of tears is over. The slums will soon be a memory. We will turn our prisons into factories and our jails into storehouses and corncribs. Men will walk upright now, women will smile and children will laugh. Hell will be forever for rent."

Reverend Billy Sunday delivered this quotation during a speech at the beginning of prohibition. Many people believed and hoped that prohibition would make the above true. However, as they watched and waited, they realized that nothing was improved, and somehow, things had gotten worse.

The following are statistics detailing how much worse crime got:

Police funding: INCREASED $11.4 Million
Arrests for Prohibition Las Violations: INCREASED 102+%
Arrests for Drunkenness and Disorderly Conduct: INCREASED 41%
Arrests of Drunken Drivers: INCREASED 81%
Thefts and Burglaries: INCREASED 9%
Homicides, Assault, and Battery: INCREASED 13%
Number of Federal Convicts: INCREASED 561%
Federal Prison Population: INCREASED 366%
Total Federal Expenditures on Penal Institutions: INCREASED 1,000%

Source

Perhaps you'd rather live n a country like Saudi Arabia where they seem to have a grip on the whole permissive society thing?