Why is Ireland so Pro-Obama?

hatrickpatrick

Simple. "Pro family values" = anti freedom of choice. Consenting adults should not be interfered with by the government unless they hurt a non consenting third party. The so called "small government" Republicans are about as far from this ideal as possible.

KyussBishop

I don't defend the Democrat's, because I don't view them as hugely different to the Republicans when it comes down to it (you could consider them two wings of one 'corporate' party, as they're both beholden to big money and have more policies in common than not), but the Republicans definitely are more noticeably to the right, both economically and socially.

Particularly since they pander to religious interests as a core part of their base (thus moving socially to the right), more than the Democrats, and also (to the more extreme right) create their own anti-science propaganda to support various political/economic views (I'm sure some Democrats do this too, but not nearly to the extent as Republicans; they at least pay lip-service to scientific integrity on most issues, whereas the religious side of Republican party is more comfortable outright rejecting it).


You get plenty of crackpot Democrats as well, sure, and I'm not a fan of people defending the Democrats on, well, almost anything, because there's a definite irrational partisan divide there (which ignores that Obama's admin is almost a wholesale endorsement of Bush's policies), but the Republicans as a whole, definitely edge that little bit more to the far right (with Democrats being around about center-right).

So, while I'd love people to be more critical of the Democrats in general, and pull the crackpots into the spotlight from that party more often, to hold them to account (especially important seeing as they're the ruling party right now), what is really wrong with people doing this with the Republicans a lot?

Lets say it is a double standard then; so what? That doesn't make the criticisms of the Republican party any less valid, and it certainly doesn't mean the Democrats are equivalently bad (plenty to show that they are not), just that they aren't criticized as often as they should be.

megafan

Blay wrote: »

You seem to think Ireland is massively anti abortion and pro Catholic Church. Things have changed in the 20 years you've been gone.

Have they?? Still headline news!!!:mad:

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Who are the influential moderate republicans ?

Plus you deliberatly left out the most important part of that obama quote .

Permabear

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jank

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

I left it 6 years later with a very healthy respect for the Republicans, because I saw that they're were not like the people portrayed to me in the Irish media, they were normal
.

This. The Irish media has alot of influence on how we look upon the GOP. They constantly try and divide the dems and gop between good and bad. It is nothing of the sort. There are many posters here that fall into the same trap. Most of them are closeminded and have very little interaction with the rest of the world outside some dublin suburb.

asherbassad

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

Having spent half my life in Ireland and half my life in the US, (the last 20 years in the US), I would say that if I still lived in Ireland today, I would probably be Pro-Obama, as well, and I would say for the first 7 or 8 year I was in the US, I was pro-Democrat as well. So what changed, well when I first went to the US, I wanted to prove how "progressive" I was and how I was so different from the old Irish stereotype, of being traditional, pro-family values, anti-divorce, pro-Catholic, poor, even virtuous, etc., I wanted to show America, how us young Irish are so hip, and with it, probably to the extent that I was embarrassed that in Ireland in 1993, divorce was still not allowed, sex outside of marriage was frowned upon, even abortion was not permitted. My shame was that we (Irish) were behind the ball of other more "progressive" countries.

So where am I going with this? Well first, as I have come to learn through the years that what's described as "progressive", that is, legal divorce, contraceptives, abortion, sex before marriage, one or two child only families, or no families, pleasure before virtue, etc., is actually becoming the seed of most of the problems in many of our societies today. Not just problems in our personal and family life, but the macro-economic and social problems as well. In America this line of "progressive" thinking is what got President Obama re-elected.

Do the Irish know that President Obama and most of the Democratic Party support abortion on demand? Do the Irish know that when Mr. Obama was a senator in Illinois voted for partial-birth abortion? Do the Irish know that Mr. Obama is putting in place policies with the new health care mandate (HHS mandate), that will essentially force thousands of Catholic and other Christian institutions out of business in the US (25% of healthcare in the US are Catholic institutions), simply because following the requirements of their religion will be deemed contrary to the government's HHS mandate. Example, a Catholic hospital not performing an abortion, will be seen just as serious as not paying its taxes and the full rigors of US law, which include confiscation of property, garnishing of wages, will be put upon them. As I don't live in Ireland but have family there, I know most of them don't realize this.

Is it the nice smile, the great vocal delivery, the Irish ancestery, being black, that won the Irish over?

Anyway I was not and am not fully with the Republican side in America either, but what I am, is an informed voter. If a candidate for President, Democrat or Republic, white or black, in a few years from now stood for pro-family values, pro-life, pro-freedom of religion, pro-immigrants, and pro-virtue, I would vote for him or her in a heartbeat. Why do I get so much push back from the Irish about wanting such a candidate? Why is when so many policies happen to line up with the teachings of the world's religions, there is a back lash? Is it because some of the participants in those religions have done terrible deeds, so therefore the virtues that those religions preach are also wrong, or is it generally, I want my pleasure and cake now, and whatever politician gives it to me, will get my vote, and I don't want to addle my brain with what will happen 10, 30, or 60 years down the road?

Pro-family values? Pro-lfe? Pro-freedom?

Don't make me laugh.
Freedom? You can be searched without a warrant....In Ireland you can't
Pro-life.....loving that death penalty crap?
What are family values? Religious leaders and fake war "heroes" like Petraeus slutting around on their wives.?

I'm just pro-truth.....not pro-busllsh!t like you.

Memnoch

Oh the poor maligned GOP, so horribly misunderstood.

It's not just that their list of presidential candidates was a collection of nutjobs, extremists, morons and incompetent hypocrites.

But who has the biggest show on talk radio? Rush Limbaugh? You can cry about it all you like but it is people like him who are the voice of the American right.

Then there's Bill O Reilly. Sean Hannity and Ann Coulter. What about Glen Beck? How long was he one of the leading voices?

Then you have 'moderate' republicans like McCain who are forced to adopt extreme positions in order to win their own parties nomination (I'm talking after the presdential election) needing the support of Sarah 'I can see Russia from my house' Palin.

The impression people have of the GOP is exactly who they are. This whole Obama believes in God too is as big a yarn of false equivilance as we've seen on these forums. There's a difference between Obama's personal religious belief and trying to pass a low that says creationism must be taught in science class as an alternative theory to evolution. Can you give me an example of when the democrats last tried to espouse such a law?

Also... there are scales of creationist belief. There's a difference between saying you believe god had a hand in the creation of the universe and saying that carbon dating is fiction and that the world was brought into being 6,000 years ago. I don't believe Obama has ever said anything to the effect of the last two.

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

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Meh I think this one is done to death.
Would the republicans run a gay person or an athiest for president?

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Sure? Why you write this then?
all gay/atheist politicians are in the Labour Party, other left-wing parties, or independents.

Permabear wrote: »

Regardless of whether he takes all of Genesis literally or not, Obama still believes that the universe was created by a supernatural deity. As I've said above, I'm not especially concerned with the timeline that Obama's supernatural deity was on. Believing in any creation myth is to put oneself fundamentally at odds with science.

Not really, that's a false equivalence.
There is a big difference between those who take the bible literally and those who see it as a guide.

Permabear wrote: »

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Bit patronising that claim, you know we do get news from other places besides RTE these days. The internet etc....

So despite Ireland being a perfect fit for the republican party Ireland and most of the world would overwhelminlgy support Obama !
This is because of bias in Irish reporting!! I think not.

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

I've asked three times in this thread for someone to name some moderate republicans or who we should be listening to but still no names. Look at the leaders and main spokespeople for the republican party, that's what people judge them on, its not a pretty sight.

20Cent

jank wrote: »

This. The Irish media has alot of influence on how we look upon the GOP. They constantly try and divide the dems and gop between good and bad. It is nothing of the sort. There are many posters here that fall into the same trap. Most of them are closeminded and have very little interaction with the rest of the world outside some dublin suburb.

Any examples of this?

Can you tell me who we should be listening to in order to get a picture of the "real" gop?

Memnoch

Also, let's not forget about Ferret headwear afficiando, Donald Trump.

What percentage of the American electorate believe Obama is foreign born? What percentage believe he is a secret Muslim (while also being a devout member of the church of Jeremiah Wright for the past 20 years) ?

I suppose all those people are democratic voters.

Fr Tod Umptious

20Cent wrote: »

Any examples of this?

Can you tell me who we should be listening to in order to get a picture of the "real" gop?

Try listening to some local US talk radio stations, lots of them on the web

The John Dennis and Jerry Callaghan show on Sports Radio 850 WEEI in Boston did up until recently talk a lot of politics and took a moderate conservative line, with John Dennis, a protestant English American taking a more liberal view than the Irish Catholic American Jerry Callaghan.

However the big wigs in the station have them now under orders to just talk sports.

It's like what I said earlier, only when you listen to real ordinary American that you realise that the GOP are not what is portrayed here.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

20Cent

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

So tell us which media should one watch to find out about the real republicans?
Which gop leaders should one listen to?

Memnoch

Except I don't rely on the Irish media to inform my view of the GOP. In fact I consume more American news media than Irish news media. My view of the GOP comes from BBC, CNN, Foxnews, Townhall.com and Nationalreview.com. In other words, my views of the GOP is based on my actual observations of GOP leaders, what they say and what they seem to stand for. And I suspect the same is true for most people who have such unfavorable views of the GOP.

iPringle

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Simple. "Pro family values" = anti freedom of choice. Consenting adults should not be interfered with by the government unless they hurt a non consenting third party. The so called "small government" Republicans are about as far from this ideal as possible.

Not really. They simply see an unborn child as a "non-consenting third party".

Madd Finn

Why is Ireland so pro-Obama?

Well, even if you take that statement as true, which it isn't in its entirety, the answer might be "Because there is so much in what is perceived to be the Republican agenda, especially the vociferous Tea Party movement that is repugnant."

But even that only highlights the real problem which is the insane political system that pertains in the USA. From a country of about 4million people with four mainstream parties (currently), we look across at a multi-ethnic nation of 300 million people spanning a continent and three different time zones and wonder at the fact that all the various interest groups and agendas can be represented by a mere two parties, each of them around 200 years old, give or take a decade or so.

Even their names are so trite as to be meaningless. Spell republican or democrat with a small initial and you describe just about every US citizen. How many royalists are there in the US? Or people who think that democracy is just a bad idea?

Yet the whole fibre of the nation is supposed to be determined every four years by the choice voters make between this supposed ideological chasm. To paraphrase our great compatriot George Bernard Shaw: "Americans are a people divided by a common ideology."

How can this be? The simple answer is that both of these parties were and are massive coalitions, whose make up changes and whose internal loyalties shift depending on the conditions of the time. Countries such as ours with political systems which encourage multiple parties, many of whom only last a short period of time have parliaments which paint a more transparent picture of the feelings of voters.

If one looked at the make up of the House of Representatives 100 years ago, one would see that it was still largely made up of Republicans and Democrats as it is today. Should one assume that 1912 Democrats thought the same as 2012 ones? Hell no!!

Permabear is right (for once ) when he points out that the Democrats have a more shameful history of racism than the Republicans. They were indeed the party of slavery in the 19th century and the party of segregation and discrimination in the 20th.

There are people still alive today who were around when the Ku Klux Klan tried to take over the Democratic National Convention in 1924. They succeeded in their main aim, the defeat of Al Smith for the party's nomination for president, but failed to get their preferred candidate William McAdoo appointed instead.

Their main beef with Smith was that he was a Goddam Catholic. Couldn't have one of those running the country. The notion that a ****** could get within an ass's roar of the reins of power back then was so fanciful as to not merit a second thought.

Do you think this bothered Barak Obama when he ran in 2008? Or for that matter his Catholic running mate Joe Biden? Hardly.

Each of the two American parties is a patchwork of cultural and political interest groups at any one time. It is relatively easy to pick out something you like about one of them and something you absolutely detest about the other. It's ridiculous, it's insane, it's in semantic terms a bipolar disorder.

But it's the way the Americans like it.

poeticseraphim

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

Having spent half my life in Ireland and half my life in the US, (the last 20 years in the US), I would say that if I still lived in Ireland today, I would probably be Pro-Obama, as well, and I would say for the first 7 or 8 year I was in the US, I was pro-Democrat as well. So what changed, well when I first went to the US, I wanted to prove how "progressive" I was and how I was so different from the old Irish stereotype, of being traditional, pro-family values, anti-divorce, pro-Catholic, poor, even virtuous, etc., I wanted to show America, how us young Irish are so hip, and with it, probably to the extent that I was embarrassed that in Ireland in 1993, divorce was still not allowed, sex outside of marriage was frowned upon, even abortion was not permitted. My shame was that we (Irish) were behind the ball of other more "progressive" countries.

So where am I going with this? Well first, as I have come to learn through the years that what's described as "progressive", that is, legal divorce, contraceptives, abortion, sex before marriage, one or two child only families, or no families, pleasure before virtue, etc., is actually becoming the seed of most of the problems in many of our societies today. Not just problems in our personal and family life, but the macro-economic and social problems as well. In America this line of "progressive" thinking is what got President Obama re-elected.

Do the Irish know that President Obama and most of the Democratic Party support abortion on demand? Do the Irish know that when Mr. Obama was a senator in Illinois voted for partial-birth abortion? Do the Irish know that Mr. Obama is putting in place policies with the new health care mandate (HHS mandate), that will essentially force thousands of Catholic and other Christian institutions out of business in the US (25% of healthcare in the US are Catholic institutions), simply because following the requirements of their religion will be deemed contrary to the government's HHS mandate. Example, a Catholic hospital not performing an abortion, will be seen just as serious as not paying its taxes and the full rigors of US law, which include confiscation of property, garnishing of wages, will be put upon them. As I don't live in Ireland but have family there, I know most of them don't realize this.

Is it the nice smile, the great vocal delivery, the Irish ancestery, being black, that won the Irish over?

Anyway I was not and am not fully with the Republican side in America either, but what I am, is an informed voter. If a candidate for President, Democrat or Republic, white or black, in a few years from now stood for pro-family values, pro-life, pro-freedom of religion, pro-immigrants, and pro-virtue, I would vote for him or her in a heartbeat. Why do I get so much push back from the Irish about wanting such a candidate? Why is when so many policies happen to line up with the teachings of the world's religions, there is a back lash? Is it because some of the participants in those religions have done terrible deeds, so therefore the virtues that those religions preach are also wrong, or is it generally, I want my pleasure and cake now, and whatever politician gives it to me, will get my vote, and I don't want to addle my brain with what will happen 10, 30, or 60 years down the road?

Yes the Irish know Obama's stance on abortion...and same sex marriage...it is probably why we support him..
I support abortion on demand..i support same sex marriage.

I am on the left of politics...whether that means I am against American right wingers or Irish right wingers.

Hopefully we will have abortion on demand in Ireland soon.

I do not support the Catholic church. I do not support them. They must never have power in this country.

The fact that you think contraception does wrong in society makes me think your are irrational.

I don't support the GOP.....because i don't believe in their ideals.


I find fault with some democratic policies.

But personally I am nearer to a democrat than a republican.

Fr Tod Umptious

poeticseraphim wrote: »

Yes the Irish know Obama's stance on abortion...and same sex marriage...it is probably why we support him..

I support abortion on demand..i support same sex marriage..

Important distinction here

You may support same sex marriage and abortion, and that is your right, but we, the Irish people, may not.
And whether we do or not will be decided at the ballot box in referendums.

And that is the whole point, how come Ireland is so pro Obama while at the same time having quiet conservative policies in our own country

Memnoch

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

Important distinction here

You may support same sex marriage and abortion, and that is your right, but we, the Irish people, may not.
And whether we do or not will be decided at the ballot box in referendums.

And that is the whole point, how come Ireland is so pro Obama while at the same time having quiet conservative policies in our own country

You've got the answers, you just don't like them and would rather believe that irish people are ignorant hypocrites held in thrall by a vast liberal media conspiracy.

Ireland has modernised significantly, but laws tend to take longer to change than views in society. You need to have a very strong majority of people in favor of something before there is enough political momentum to make the kind of deep changes to constitutional law that such issues require.

Irish politics is very messy, there are many interest groups and conflicting agendas. Modern, educated Irish people are by and large quite disdainful of not only the catholic church but organised religious institutions in general. So naturally they will be more likely to support the democrats and Obama.

It's the inevitable tide of history, the old is always overcome by the new.

jank

20Cent wrote: »

Any examples of this?

Can you tell me who we should be listening to in order to get a picture of the "real" gop?

Plenty of examples of this. If you cant see it then there is nothing I can do.

Memnoch

jank wrote: »

Plenty of examples of this. If you cant see it then there is nothing I can do.

There may be moderate voices in the republican party, but the question is how much weight do these voices carry?

If there are plenty of examples surely you can list a few of the top of your head that are prominent leaders?

jank

Memnoch wrote: »

Also, let's not forget about Ferret headwear afficiando, Donald Trump.

It is really amusing that you are looking at some of the most vocal and highlighted conservative voices in the US media and then stating that they are the TRUE proponents of the GOP, THEN have the check to talk about false equalliances...

You know, if I stayed on the Internet all day I would think Ireland is full of drunk racist who like to torture women because they want an abortion.

InTheTrees

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

On the other hand the respect people had in Ireland for Clinton was not visible in the states, during his second term and during the scandal he was very unpopular.

Maybe amongst republicans who contrived the whole farce of "impeachment".

But Clinton would have handily won a third term if he'd been able to run. And his VP Al Gore DID technically win the election.

20Cent

jank wrote: »

Plenty of examples of this. If you cant see it then there is nothing I can do.

So you can't name any?
Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, Todd Akin?
All central and influential for the republicans.

Who are these influential moderates?

Memnoch

jank wrote: »

It is really amusing that you are looking at some of the most vocal and highlighted conservative voices in the US media and then stating that they are the TRUE proponents of the GOP, THEN have the check to talk about false equalliances...

You know, if I stayed on the Internet all day I would think Ireland is full of drunk racist who like to torture women because they want an abortion.

Who are the true proponents of the GOP?

These are people who seem to be given the most voice by the conservative media. Trump, Hannity, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Coulter.

O'Reilly has the most watched cable news show, Limbaugh the most listend to radio show. Palin was the last vice presidential cadidate.

Trump has been leading the whole birther charge. AGAIN, what percentage of americans believe obama is foreign born, what percentage believe he is a muslim.

I'm getting tired of you pretending that reality doesn't exist.

I'm also curious how you judge who are the voices that represent the GOP if not the people who lead them in the media and also on the ballot?

If the latest collection of presidential nominees aren't representative, then who is? There's a reason they're the most highlighted... it's because they have the biggest audience.

The Bishop!

Who are these influential moderates?

Well, we can cancel Chip Rogers off the list anyway.

from wiki:
Chip is is a Republican and was first elected in 2002 to the Georgia General Assembly to the Georgia House of Representatives,[1] in 2004 he was elected to the Georgia State Senate.[2] Rogers was unanimously chosen as the Senate Majority Leader of the U.S. state of Georgia in 2009.

On October 11, at a closed-door meeting of the Republican caucus convened by the body's majority leader, Chip Rogers, a tea party activist told Republican lawmakers that Obama was mounting this most diabolical conspiracy:

President Obama is using a Cold War-era mind-control technique known as "Delphi" to coerce Americans into accepting his plan for a United Nations-run communist dictatorship in which suburbanites will be forcibly relocated to cities.
http://www.motherjones.com/mojo/2012/11/georgia-senate-gets-52-minute-briefing-united-nations-takeover

:pac:

Brian?

jank wrote: »

It is really amusing that you are looking at some of the most vocal and highlighted conservative voices in the US media and then stating that they are the TRUE proponents of the GOP, THEN have the check to talk about false equalliances...

You know, if I stayed on the Internet all day I would think Ireland is full of drunk racist who like to torture women because they want an abortion.

I know plenty of registered Republicans, most are sane moderate people. The rest are creationists, believers in conspiracy theories, crazy nuts or all 3.

The moderates feel the GOP has left them behind, 2 I know even voted for Obama because of the ****e being pedalled.

The non-moderate faction is not a small minority, they are a large minority. Unfortunately they are the loudest and most active within the GOP. They drive GOP policy to as if they are the majority.

Name me a moderate GOP leader who the non moderates might actually listen to. I don't believe such a person exists.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Memnoch wrote: »

Also... there are scales of creationist belief. There's a difference between saying you believe god had a hand in the creation of the universe and saying that carbon dating is fiction and that the world was brought into being 6,000 years ago. I don't believe Obama has ever said anything to the effect of the last two.

This. Although I'm staunchly atheistic, I still think Permabear's attempt to equate Obama's religious belief with biblical literalism is utter nonsense. There is a big difference between believing things that MIGHT be true, and believing things which are definitely NOT true. Pretending that relgious fundamentalism isn't a more destructive mindset than moderate Christianity is merely an effort to ignore the serious problems within the American conservative movement.

Duck Soup

There are a number of notable moderates in the Republican party - Jeb Bush, Lisa Murkowski in Alaska, Jon Huntsman, even Chris Christie, who may be combative, but is not an ideologue - the problem is that they don't have an organized, grassroots constituency backing them up.

The bottom line is that a moderate doesn't have a prayer of getting the nomination as Republican nominee unless they run to the right (a la Mitt). This then leaves them as damaged goods at the general election. If you want to know what happens if you don't make that rightward veer, just ask Jon Huntsman.

In congressional and senatorial races it's much the same story. You don't make it through the nomination primaries unless you pass muster with the base activists - essentially the tea party faction.

To link it all back to the original thread question - why is Ireland so pro-Obama? - the answer is that not just Ireland, but pretty much every country in the western world looks at the Republican policies and finds them just short of batshít crazy. Forced vaginal ultrasounds? Personhood amendments? Creationism taught in schools? Voter suppression efforts targetted at non-whites? Even Ireland blanches at the nonsense and venom that spews forth from Republican state legislatures and that makes it into the official party platform.

There are plenty of socially conservative countries around the world, but amongst liberal democracies the Republican party is increasingly greeted with an eye-roll and a "Good grief." The party establishment is well aware of this, but as long as the votes are with the hard-right activist base, there's not much they can do to stop that rightwards drift.

Hoof Hearted

nagirrac wrote: »

Given their handing of the child abuse scandals in Ireland and worldwide there is a much stronger case to be made that the Catholic church should be outlawed as there is against NAMBLA.

On what basis do you support outlawing the Catholic Church? I could have this opinion too if I just listened to what the general media reported, but I like to "trust but verify". Here's some information that may help you understand that the level of pedophilia in the general population is much higher than amongst Catholic clergy.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2010/03/the-myth-of-pedophile-priests.html

These poor children are more at risk at home and amongst teachers and doctors.

Do you think the general media has an agenda or is biased? I hope you don't want your mind made up for you.

Hoof Hearted

Duck Soup wrote: »

To link it all back to the original thread question - why is Ireland so pro-Obama? - the answer is that not just Ireland, but pretty much every country in the western world looks at the Republican policies and finds them just short of batshít crazy. Forced vaginal ultrasounds? Personhood amendments? Creationism taught in schools? Voter suppression efforts targetted at non-whites? Even Ireland blanches at the nonsense and venom that spews forth from Republican state legislatures and that makes it into the official party platform.

The Nazi Party probably lableled "nonsense and venom", people that stood up or spoke out for the rights and personhood of the Jews. An unborn child can be scientifically proven to be human just as much as a Jew.
Also, you are pretty much saying it is "batshít crazy" to implement a mandatory requirement for a mother to see her unborn child before she considers terminating the child. What is so crazy about that? Is it a case of out of sight, out of mind? Shouldn't we be aiming for more transparency?

Hoof Hearted

Duffy the Vampire Slayer wrote: »

Although I'm staunchly atheistic

So you must have a lot of faith to believe that no God exists?

So are you OK with maximizing your pleasure as long as it doesn't affect anyone else? Or are you OK with maximizing your pleasure even if it does affect others, because if there is no God, what does right and wrong matter anyway? You'll be just another dead animal buried in the ground, right? I would be sad if you thought that. I do hope you can read the following article.
http://near-death.com/experiences/atheists01.html

Wishing you the Best.

nagirrac

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

On what basis do you support outlawing the Catholic Church? I could have this opinion too if I just listened to what the general media reported, but I like to "trust but verify". Here's some information that may help you understand that the level of pedophilia in the general population is much higher than amongst Catholic clergy.

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2010/03/the-myth-of-pedophile-priests.html

These poor children are more at risk at home and amongst teachers and doctors.

Do you think the general media has an agenda or is biased? I hope you don't want your mind made up for you.

Why would I take seriously an article by a Catholic priest that 1) has no referenced statistics whatsoever to back up its claims , 2) references a book by an author who worked for an organization (Penn State) who protected a child molester in their midst for decades and whose president had to resign when the scandal finally broke, and 3) is absolutely disgusting in many of its claims; such as abuse of teenagers is less serious than abuse of children, abuse of sexually active teenagers is somehow less serious again, a single offense somehow forgivable, etc. etc.

No abuse of minors is acceptable, period. No amount of trying to "share the blame" with sexually active teenagers or homosexuals change the fact that the Catholic church is a disgusting organization that protected serial sexual offenders in their midst.

I have no doubt from the credible unbiased research I have read that sexual abuse of minors is no more common in the Catholic church than in general society. The difference is that in any civilized society perpetrators are identified, charged and convicted. The Catholic church hierachy (all the way to the top) knew about the monsters in their midst, exposed countless thousands of minors to abuse by protecting them and moving them around, and willfully ignored the laws in the states the abuse occued in. That is the basis to consider outlawing the Catholic church.

southsiderosie

MOD NOTE:

This is not a thread about abortion or the Catholic Church, it is about why Ireland is so pro-Obama. Please stay on topic.

Duck Soup

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

Also, you are pretty much saying it is "batshít crazy" to implement a mandatory requirement for a mother to see her unborn child before she considers terminating the child. What is so crazy about that? Is it a case of out of sight, out of mind? Shouldn't we be aiming for more transparency?

What I'm saying is that countries that have legalized abortion - which is the vast majority of western liberal democracies - there is no other political party that is pushing for such a measure as forced vaginal ultrasounds.

I'm simply answering the question you posed. Ireland and virtually other country in the world is 'pro-Obama' because it recoils at the antics of the Republican party. Creationism taught in schools? Really?

Once a country has had its democratic dialogue and legalized abortion, it should respect both the expressed wishes of its people and the privacy of the women who choose the procedure.

Heck, you're perfectly within your rights to take exception to the description of forced vaginal ultrasounds as batshít crazy. My point however, still stands. That is how many, many people around the world view such measures. In America, such policies on women's reproductive rights, voter suppression, creationism and all the rest of it may seem part of mainstream debate.

All I'm saying is that outside of America, such views are often scorned and ridiculed. You asked why Ireland (and most everywhere else) is pro-Obama and anti-Republican. I'm just telling you why.

Duffy the Vampire Slayer

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

So you must have a lot of faith to believe that no God exists?

Atheism is the lack of belief in a God, not the belief that there is none.

Memnoch

Hoof - I regret to inform you that based on reading your posts, attitudes like yours are the reason Ireland is so pro-Obama. Thankfully, attitudes like yours are a rapidly shrinking minority in the educated western world.

Hoof Hearted

asherbassad wrote: »

Pro-family values? Pro-lfe? Pro-freedom?

Don't make me laugh.
Freedom? You can be searched without a warrant....In Ireland you can't
Pro-life.....loving that death penalty crap?
What are family values? Religious leaders and fake war "heroes" like Petraeus slutting around on their wives.?

I'm just pro-truth.....not pro-busllsh!t like you.

Truth, glad you brought this into the discussion.

I have aunts in Ireland in their 60s and 70s, who are staunch Catholic and they think Obama being elected was the greatest thing to happen to the world, do you think they were fed the truth from the media there?

It is clear that the majority of the media in Ireland and the US are no longer about reporting the truth. How all candidates in the US Presidential election provided at least one exception where abortion would be OK shows that none of them had integrity. The truth is that they are saying it's OK to deliberately kill an unborn human in certain circumstances. Has anyone here worked in an abortion clinic and seen what it's like to clean up after an "operation"? It makes watching a documentary on the Holocaust mild in comparison. To say an abortion is OK with the evidence that is so readily accessible in this Internet age, is closing one's eyes to the truth. Abortion is both a consequence of and an act of sin.

President Obama is clearly pro-abortion, however my aunts didn't seem to know this. How well was this point reported in Ireland? It won't be too long, in Ireland, when leaders there, who share similar views to Obama will be elected there, and the word "abortion" will be eerily absent from media reports, and the code-word "choice" will be in its place. I mean who would be against choice. Choice sounds great, right? Hitler had a choice to not kill or kill Jews.

Freedom: Envision the freedom we would all have if all decided not to sin. Sin is what causes us all to have less freedom. In worldly thinking freedom has come to mean freedom to sin.

Corkfeen

It's your aunts' fault if they don't know what positions Obama and the Democratic party hold. My own mother is in her seventies and knew that the Obama was pro-abortion and would have a fairly good knowledge on other stances that he holds. It wasn't exactly a secret and many posters here including myself watched the debates where abortion was touched upon.

Irish people aren't in the dark when it comes to US politics. News has pretty much gone global so you're not limited to reading the Irish perspective on US politics. Most people below the age of fifty tend to read a broad variety of news sites that don't originate in Ireland. I think you're somewhat out of touch and are making a lot of assumptions about the average Irish person being in the dark. Also, one issue doesn't define the public's viewpoint and for the most part it shouldn't.

southsiderosie

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

Truth, glad you brought this into the discussion.

I have aunts in Ireland in their 60s and 70s, who are staunch Catholic and they think Obama being elected was the greatest thing to happen to the world, do you think they were fed the truth from the media there?

It is clear that the majority of the media in Ireland and the US are no longer about reporting the truth. How all candidates in the US Presidential election provided at least one exception where abortion would be OK shows that none of them had integrity. The truth is that they are saying it's OK to deliberately kill an unborn human in certain circumstances. Has anyone here worked in an abortion clinic and seen what it's like to clean up after an "operation"? It makes watching a documentary on the Holocaust mild in comparison. To say an abortion is OK with the evidence that is so readily accessible in this Internet age, is closing one's eyes to the truth. Abortion is both a consequence of and an act of sin.

President Obama is clearly pro-abortion, however my aunts didn't seem to know this. How well was this point reported in Ireland? It won't be too long, in Ireland, when leaders there, who share similar views to Obama will be elected there, and the word "abortion" will be eerily absent from media reports, and the code-word "choice" will be in its place. I mean who would be against choice. Choice sounds great, right? Hitler had a choice to not kill or kill Jews.

Freedom: Envision the freedom we would all have if all decided not to sin. Sin is what causes us all to have less freedom. In worldly thinking freedom has come to mean freedom to sin.

MOD NOTE:

Really? Did you not read my warning? Don't post in this thread again.

Ozymandius2011

The Irish media e.g. Irish Times, RTE, Vincent Browne is mainly progressive on social-issues. The American media is split between conservative Talk Radio e.g. Rush Limbaugh, Laura Ingraham etc. and a mostly liberal press and Cable TV (except Fox and arguably CNBC). So the opinion formers are more likely to push you to the Right if you live there than here. That is largely my take. Then there are the Puritan roots of America - especially in the Bible Belt. Groupthink may influence you to espouse the perspectives of the uber-powerful American Religious Right. The socially-conservative parts of America seem to be becoming more so, just as the traditional liberal-strongholds like New York, Washington state, Oregon etc. are moving in the opposite direction. So if you live on the Left/West coast or Northeast you are more likely to support Obama while in Mississippi you will chances are support the GOP.

Brian Shanahan

Hoof Hearted wrote: »

So where am I going with this? Well first, as I have come to learn through the years that what's described as "progressive", that is, legal divorce, contraceptives, abortion, sex before marriage, one or two child only families, or no families, pleasure before virtue, etc., is actually becoming the seed of most of the problems in many of our societies today. Not just problems in our personal and family life, but the macro-economic and social problems as well. In America this line of "progressive" thinking is what got President Obama re-elected.

And any credibility you have is wiped clean by this paragraph.

Now, I'm no supporter of Obama, no true left-wing person is. He is as much a tin-pot dictator as W was, as tied into the Military-Industrial-Congressional* complex as Bush was, as beholden to corporate interests as Bush was, as hypocritical in foreign affairs as Bush was, and, incredibly, much more lawless when it comes to justice for US citizens than Bush ever was.

But to claim the above as valid reasons to be against a particular political party is to claim that the highest form of society is 12th Century Medieval Europe.


*The original wording of President Eisenhower's valedictory speech had the phrase Military-Industrial Complex (he coined the phrase) in this formulation. He was persuaded to drop the reference to Congress so as not to unduly antagonise one of the branches of government.

Brian Shanahan

InTheTrees wrote: »

But Clinton would have handily won a third term if he'd been able to run. And his VP Al Gore DID technically win the election.

He did more than "technically" win the election. He won it. It was because W got daddy's lapdogs in the supreme court to validate his theft of the Florida vote through mass voter fraud that the Republicans were able to install him in the White House without their putsch getting bloody.

And if you thought Gore's victory was emphatic, you should have seen John Kerry's before the Republicans shredded millions of black and hispanic votes.

Fr Tod Umptious

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

..........

Now, I'm no supporter of Obama, no true left-wing person is. He is as much a tin-pot dictator as W was, as tied into the Military-Industrial-Congressional* complex as Bush was, as beholden to corporate interests as Bush was, as hypocritical in foreign affairs as Bush was, and, incredibly, much more lawless when it comes to justice for US citizens than Bush ever was...............

But then why is he so loved in Ireland and George W. Bush was so hated ?

That's what gets me

Brian Shanahan

Fr Tod Umptious wrote: »

But then why is he so loved in Ireland and George W. Bush was so hated ?

That's what gets me

A) People are idiots for the most part.

Irish people have been shown enough evidence to know that Shrub stole (not won) two elections off better (not by much granted) candidates.

CollardGreens

Irish people have been shown enough evidence to know that Shrub stole (not won) two elections off better (not by much granted) candidates.

Where is this evidence and where did this alleged evidence originate from? Is this just your opinion? How many Irish ppl are you speaking for?


Links please!

Brian Shanahan

CollardGreens wrote: »

Where is this evidence and where did this alleged evidence originate from? Is this just your opinion? How many Irish ppl are you speaking for?


Links please!

Go here, and buy the following Armed Madhouse and The Best Democracy Money can buy. Between both books you have full details (with multiple citations) of how both elections were stolen.

And in case you start shouting bias, Palast hates the Democrats at least as much as he hates the Republicans, a reasonable stance as both parties are treasonous to their country.