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Having to go to church: Should I stand?
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I can't believe in a thread full of atheists, in a forum full of even more atheists, and having read through the whole thread so far, nobody picked up on this little langer clanger on the first page-What they couldn't stop me from doing though was kneeling in the most unenthusiastic way, throwing my eyes up to heaven, muttering stuff quietly to myself, and shaking my head whenever the priest would quote scripture and claim that it was all gods work that the couple had met and fallen in love ... followed by a hymn about how great god is ... and me face palming (literally) during the readings when they told the story about Eve being a rib lady...
An atheist says where now?
But anyway, not to play devil's advocate here, but as a roman catholic myself, and speaking from my albeit limited understanding of what it is to be an atheist- a lack of belief in a deity, why does it actually matter so much to do the catholic pilates (i liked that expression!
) for the forty minutes if you believe there is no particular signifigance in it? I just can't fathom the depth of abhorrence I guess for something that atheists consider irrelevant? As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread- "When in Rome...".
I mean, if you're really that bent out of shape about participating, then don't, but the whole eye rolling, arm folding, muttering, etc, that's just plain disrespectful, in ANY environment, irrespective of the fact of whether you are scornful of somebody elses beliefs or not. When I go to somebody's house and they ask me to take off my shoes at the door, I think it's a bit silly, and I feel a bit ridiculous, but I would still at the same time do it out of respect as it is their house, not mine, so I abide by their rules. I don't get all bent out of shape about it as I'm usually only there for an hour or so to do a job and then go. If I was that bad about it, I have the choice to turn around and leave and keep my shoes on!
The same is true for atheists- If you do not want to respect the beliefs of those in attendance, nobody has glue on your shoes that you cannot turn around and leave, rather than make a mockery of those who actually want to be there.
Anyway, with all that said, as already mentioned, I'm an RC myself, and growing up I was the black sheep of the family, one could say I was the bane of my fathers existence. So, at his funeral anyway and I was running a bit late for the mass. We had never really seen eye to eye and even though I am catholic, even Jesus had people who p!ssed him off, and lets not go there with the amount of people God had according to the old testament who p!ssed HIM off, so basically myself and my father p!ssed each other off, and we had very little in the way of time for each other.
But I went to his funeral, turned up about ten minutes late, and didn't want to make a scene, seeing as the rest of the family were all up at the front of the church, I felt it would be hypocritical of me to go sit with them and pretend like we were all some close bond family nonsense. I had no respect for the man at this stage anyway having tried and failed numerous times at the tolerance and forgiveness route.
So I was standing at the back of the church with everyone else, when one of the neighbours recognised me and grabbed me by my elbow, "go on up there to the front" he said. I glared at him for being so forceful and said "i'm grand here, thanks!". But he persisted- "go on, go on up there!"... I was rather irate at this stage when I leaned into his ear and whispered "I'm only here because I wanted to be sure for myself this time!" (My father had a quad bypass done two years earlier and when he thought he was on his deathbed before the operation "wanted to make his peace". He came out of it fine and it wasn't long before he was back to his arrogant, indignant self). The neighbour understood the reference and disappeared back into the crowd.
I left after the mass was done and there was no big deal made of anything.0 -
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But anyway, not to play devil's advocate here, but as a roman catholic myself, and speaking from my albeit limited understanding of what it is to be an atheist- a lack of belief in a deity, why does it actually matter so much to do the catholic pilates (i liked that expression!) for the forty minutes if you believe there is no particular signifigance in it? I just can't fathom the depth of abhorrence I guess for something that atheists consider irrelevant? As someone else pointed out earlier in the thread- "When in Rome...".
I mean, if you're really that bent out of shape about participating, then don't, but the whole eye rolling, arm folding, muttering, etc, that's just plain disrespectful, in ANY environment, irrespective of the fact of whether you are scornful of somebody elses beliefs or not. When I go to somebody's house and they ask me to take off my shoes at the door, I think it's a bit silly, and I feel a bit ridiculous, but I would still at the same time do it out of respect as it is their house, not mine, so I abide by their rules. I don't get all bent out of shape about it as I'm usually only there for an hour or so to do a job and then go. If I was that bad about it, I have the choice to turn around and leave and keep my shoes on!
The same is true for atheists- If you do not want to respect the beliefs of those in attendance, nobody has glue on your shoes that you cannot turn around and leave, rather than make a mockery of those who actually want to be there.
I'd have to agree with you and I'm an atheist. I completely understand how someone could have disrespect for organized religion and dread going to a church for whatever reason but if I do have to go for a family occasion of some sort I think it would be rude to eye roll and mutter. I wouldn't take communion nor would I say prayers but I'd stand and kneel and not bother the people who invited me there.
I think it's just basic politeness and you don't have to compromise your beliefs or views, you don't have to pray or do anything which is Christian but I'd do enough to cooperate and show respect.
I'd do it for any religion, not just Christianity.0 -
I stand and kneel along with everyone else.Czarcasm, I assume the above was directed at the poster you quoted, as it appears from this thread that a large majority of non-believers do not engage in eye-rolling and muttering, and instead show due respect for the occasion, if not the religion.
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Czarcasm, I assume the above was directed at the poster you quoted, as it appears from this thread that a large majority of non-believers do not engage in eye-rolling and muttering, and instead show due respect for the occasion, if not the religion.
Yes Dades, sorry about that, it wasn't meant as taking a broad sweep at all the posters in here or their points of view. Another thing that struck me though was the whole objection to kneeling thing as if it made posters feel subservient to the church or god, I think it was yourself even posted the Zod video, but WHY it struck me was that posters felt that way for something they had no belief in anyway so why does it matter just to go through the motions? Hmm, I'm trying to think how can I explain that one better or think of an example to illustrate a similar position. It's a hard one because some atheists have much more of an intolerance of others beliefs than other atheists who really couldn't give a fiddlers. I think that's it-
If you don't believe in a deity, then why give it any signifigance at all by making a point of not kneeling, standing, etc. I go to mass every sunday and nobody eyeballs me for not kneeling (I simply can't because I have arthritis in my knees!), but then I don't make a point of it myself either.
I think SOME posters on this thread almost want to make a POINT of the fact that they are atheists and get noticed for it (not ALL posters!), and I imagine are almost disappointed when nobody takes any notice of them!
I guess I'm just surprised by the amount of atheist posters who lament the "old catholic ireland traditions", yet toe the line for religious ceremonies to keep the peace within the family. If you believe in the lack of a deity (speaking generally to all atheists Dades, not any poster specifically), then have the courage at least to stand by your principles and don't p!ss and moan about having to participate in religious ceremonies when really, you don't actually HAVE to as nobody is actually twisting your elbow to be there!
EDIT: Sorry, I meant to add too for the poster now I think of it that wasn't too sure where to put their hands when standing- I usually place my hands on the back of the pew in front of me to support myself as standing for me too can be a bit problematic and a pain in the... knees! 0 -
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Battleground is the wrong attitude to take.
Your family should accept you as you are, gay or straight, believer or atheist, whatever.
If they can't accept that, that doesn't mean you should go along with being something that you're not. That never leads to a good place.
After having thought about this thread for the last while, I often think of things later that I could have mentioned earlier, and I was reminded of my brother's wedding. He and his wife are RC, as is most of my family, except for my sister, who is actually muslim (she converted, actually now I think of it, I don't think her husband was at the wedding ceremony, but he and their children were at the reception!).
My sister was able to observe the catholic pilates (I'm loving that phrase!), but the reason most people will remember the ceremony, is for the woman that was sitting beside my sister in the front row, who decided to "fall asleep" and snore rather loudly, and when my sister nudged her to wake her up, she sniggered and snorted through the rest of the mass. Thanks mum! She made a complete tit of herself for god only knows why because she didn't possess the decorum to act in an appropriate and respectful manner.
This is why some of the posts in the thread annoy me, It's not the fact that people are atheists at all, it's the fact that some posters lack the decorum to act in an appropriate and respectful manner as if they purposely have to go in and act in such a juvenile fashion simply "to prove a point". Most people there really couldn't give a fiddlers, and the only one the atheist person is truly embarrassing, is themselves.
As I read through more and more threads in the forum too, it seems to bear out my initial thoughts that most atheists are what I call natural atheists- they have no grievance with religion, they just don't believe in a deity, and then there are a small minority who are what I call rebellious atheists- those who have become atheist purely because of their various issues with religion. The rebellious atheists are the type that I find annoying because they seem to go out of their way to make a statement of their rebellion.
In my opinion, this only does a dis-service to atheism, because people would see them as a bit, well, "unhinged" and irrational, the very thing these rebellious atheists seem to want to dismiss people who believe in a deity for!
As one poster mentioned earlier- you really DO have to pick your battles, and I understand they didn't mean battles in the aggressive sense of the word, but in the way that if you come across to people as a confrontational and arrogant person, they aren't going to give you much time, and so your message is lost, but if you talk to people, you have a much better chance of getting your message across than behaving like a juvenille and stroppy rebellious teenager with no regard for anybody but yourself.0 -
I stand and kneel along with everyone else.There's a bunch of threads to found about atheist funerals with the search function. Let's try and keep at least one thread on topic this month.
Can we not show some Christian* decency to a new arrival to our forum, and at that, a foreigner?
I know love bombing is a well known cultish tactic, but could we at least neutral-bomb :pac:
* yes, yes, I knowIn Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.
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I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
I agree entirely. That's why I'd advise the OP not to take such a confrontational stance with his family.Battleground is the wrong attitude to take.
Your family should accept you as you are, gay or straight, believer or atheist, whatever.
If they can't accept that, that doesn't mean you should go along with being something that you're not. That never leads to a good place.
Absolutely. And that respect should be reciprocated. The OP is not being asked to believe. Just to sit in a church with his family, remembering and commemorating a (presumed) loved one. What harm?
There's no suggestion his beliefs (or lack of) is not being respected. He certainly could be perceived as disrespectful in stubbornly refusing to participate in the catholic calisthenics.
There's no harm in it. If I go to a friend or family member's wedding or funeral, my mind will be on the friend or family member in question. The occasion. Not the ritual.
My sister got married a couple of years ago, and a very good friend of theirs is an Indian Hindu. He got involved in the hoppin' and jumpin'. Didn't take communion. Same as meself. Neither believed in the supernatural elements of the ceremony, but we were both fully involved in sharing the happy couples big day.
As an aside, my sister honoured me by asking me to give her away on the day. Should I have refused? Because it was in a church? Or would that have been daft? I'll be godfather to her second child in a couple of weeks. I agreed immediately when asked. To refuse wouldn't have been 'standing on principle'. It would have been 'being an arse'.
I don't believe for a second in the holygod elements of the christening. Neither does my sis, as it happens. That's her business. Nor does her daughter who'll be having her head splashed, but she'll be free to join this forum in her own good time.
But I'm happy to commit to taking a special interest in her daughter as long as we're both alive. Does this make me a hypocrite. I don't care. I'll respect all assembled there present and hope that respect would be returned. If its not, no skin off my nose. 0 -
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I stand and kneel along with everyone else.I don't believe for a second in the holygod elements of the christening. Neither does my sis, as it happens. That's her business. Nor does her daughter who'll be having her head splashed, but she'll be free to join this forum in her own good time. But I'm happy to commit to taking a special interest in her daughter as long as we're both alive. Does this make me a hypocrite. I don't care. I'll respect all assembled there present and hope that respect would be returned. If its not, no skin off my nose.
If you're making promises which you have no intention of carrying through, in terms of indocrinating the child in a particular religious belief, then yes you are absolutely a hypocrite. That's not to say that the failure to indoctrinate is detrimental to the child quite the opposite imho
I made similar promises many years ago and I deeply regret it now. I wish I had had the courage to declare then what I really believed (or rather, didn't believe) in.In Cavan there was a great fire / Judge McCarthy was sent to inquire / It would be a shame / If the nuns were to blame / So it had to be caused by a wire.
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I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
If it was my day, I'd declare it. Its not. My sister and her husband asked my to do something rather special. They are fully aware of and comfortable with my atheism. I'll hold the child and commit to look out for her welfare and happiness. The priest's interpretation of this commitment is his own affair. I won't take him all that seriously. He'll be wearing a dress...If you're making promises which you have no intention of carrying through, in terms of indocrinating the child in a particular religious belief, then yes you are absolutely a hypocrite. That's not to say that the failure to indoctrinate is detrimental to the child quite the opposite imho
I made similar promises many years ago and I deeply regret it now. I wish I had had the courage to declare then what I really believed (or rather, didn't believe) in.
I will know what I'll mean. As will the parents. As will the child, in time.
Child in time! A soundtrack to late night boardsin' suggests itself! 0 -
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I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
Let's be clear - some of posts in this thread annoy most of us. The idea that you wouldn't stand in a church, or that you'd skip a wedding ceremony altogether is behavior most wouldn't engage in (see the poll for more). So this isn't an "atheist" trait, but an individual trait. You seem intent on making general comments when in fact you should be quoting certain responses only.This is why some of the posts in the thread annoy me, It's not the fact that people are atheists at all, it's the fact that some posters lack the decorum to act in an appropriate and respectful manner as if they purposely have to go in and act in such a juvenile fashion simply "to prove a point". Most people there really couldn't give a fiddlers, and the only one the atheist person is truly embarrassing, is themselves.
All atheist are atheists because they have an issue with religion... i.e. the lack of any evidence to suggest any of it is true! People aren't atheists because they don't *like* religion, or because they *reject* God. You either believe it's true or you don't. What happens after that is down to the individuals attitude toward the religion and those who practice/preach it.As I read through more and more threads in the forum too, it seems to bear out my initial thoughts that most atheists are what I call natural atheists- they have no grievance with religion, they just don't believe in a deity, and then there are a small minority who are what I call rebellious atheists- those who have become atheist purely because of their various issues with religion. The rebellious atheists are the type that I find annoying because they seem to go out of their way to make a statement of their rebellion.
Religious people generally find vocal atheists annoying as religion is used to being immune to criticism. It doesn't cope well with uncomfortable questions or the thought of losing it's grip on it's flock. Believers as per the most vocal ones in the media peddle ridiculous notions of what a secular society would mean for us, ignoring the horrors that were perpetrated behind closed doors in times when the cloth ruled the country.
It's only a dis-service to atheism when observers cannot separate one individual as being an atheist, and another as being anti-theist.In my opinion, this only does a dis-service to atheism, because people would see them as a bit, well, "unhinged" and irrational, the very thing these rebellious atheists seem to want to dismiss people who believe in a deity for!
Agreed! Insofar as we're talking about the way the 'battle' has been fought by certain posters on this thread.As one poster mentioned earlier- you really DO have to pick your battles, and I understand they didn't mean battles in the aggressive sense of the word, but in the way that if you come across to people as a confrontational and arrogant person, they aren't going to give you much time, and so your message is lost, but if you talk to people, you have a much better chance of getting your message across than behaving like a juvenille and stroppy rebellious teenager with no regard for anybody but yourself. 0 -
It's true Dades I was trying to make a more general comment on the whole decorum in a religious place rather than quoting posters specifically because I figured that might come across as attacking the poster and not the post and might be seen as me being confrontational. I actually only wandered into the thread off the boards home page and that post I initially quoted wasn't meant to come across as having any particular objection to the poster, but just the way an atheist would use the expression "throwing their eyes up to heaven", and then nobody else spotted it, I just thought it was funny in an ironic way was all...
I was only browsing boards on the mobile at the minute, I don't usually post from mobile because of dreaded JSON errors and timeouts making it a pain in the proverbial, so I was waiting til later when I could make a proper post, but when I saw your post I just thought I had better make a reply to make it clear that I'm by no means a fire and brimstone catholic, etc, nor do I in any way tacitly approve of the abuses of the hierarchy carried out in the name of the catholic church (my own view on that is that these scum were pedophiles and pederasts before they were ever priests, and the way the hierarchy of the church was set up, enabled them to indulge their proclivities).
I may not be an eloquent wordsmith, but I didn't want my posts to be seen as trolling or disrespectful to any of the posters in here either.0 -
I stand and kneel along with everyone else.It's all good.
I've probably seen too many threads where newcomers read a minority of posts and assume the views expressed are shared by all atheists.
A belated welcome to you... do stick around!0 -
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I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
I get what you're saying 123. Next time I'm accused of militancy I'll point them in the direction of this thread. I suspect they'll find it just as offensive. Funny that...username123 wrote: »I agree with Maggie. Why on earth would someone who is atheist agree to be a godfather, and by doing so, participate in further indoctrination when you are expected to hold the candle at various ceremonies like communion and stand for them at confirmation!! Its because of this kind of sham behaviour that the catholic church has the hold it has in this country. If people who didnt believe actually didnt participate and encourage the play acting then the church would have less power.
Just bizarre. No judgement man, but just weird!!
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I get what you're saying 123. Next time I'm accused of militancy I'll point them in the direction of this thread. I suspect they'll find it just as offensive. Funny that...
As I said, no judgement, but it is weird and it does have the unintended consequence of empowering the church - but sure, none of us believe in that malarkus 0 -
I stand and kneel along with everyone else.
And my not taking part would prevent what exactly...?username123 wrote: »
As I said, no judgement, but it is weird and it does have the unintended consequence of empowering the church - but sure, none of us believe in that malarkus0 -
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This is like the voting argument. He doesn't have the power to control what other people do - and certainly not what everyone else does. I don't like participating in masses either, but I honestly think arguing here is more like to have an impact on our society than sulking over a ceremony.
Elections have been lost or won on just a small number of votes you know 0 -
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