The Cathars: A Sane Religion? Pope Had them All Killed BTW.

LivelineDipso

I have been reading about this heretical sect in the middle ages called the cathars. These guys were amazing. The believed the bible was evil and the catholic church was a tool of the devil. They saw Jesus as just a decent guy with good ideas and who was not our saviour, as we did not need saving. They said the idea of Original Sin was a evil and malevolent lie invented by the Devil (who was the God of the Old Testement) to control people.

They believed that there was no god as such - well God was an idea in the minds of humans, but a useful one if approached correctly. Thet said the material world was an illusion created by the mind and one's purpose in life is to be kind and do something useful. Where the cathars lived - moslems, jews and catholics live alongside them in peace and cooperation.

Then they got popular and the Vatican invented the Inquisition to wipe them off the face of the earth. Which they did. They exterminated the population of large areas of France and Spain. The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

All in all, as religions go they had a lot to offer sane people - especially considering the era in which they flourished.

Wacker The Attacker

Oh look. Religion and sh1t

CruelCoin

LivelineDipso wrote: »

I have been reading about this heretical sect in the middle ages called the cathars. These guys were amazing. The believed the bible was evil and the catholic church was a tool of the devil. They saw Jesus as just a decent guy with good ideas and who was not our saviour, as we did not need saving. They said the idea of Original Sin was a evil and malevolent lie invented by the Devil (who was the God of the Old Testement) to control people.

They believed that there was no god as such - well God was an idea in the minds of humans, but a useful one if approached correctly. Thet said the material world was an illusion created by the mind and one's purpose in life is to be kind and do something useful. Where the cathars lived - moslems, jews and catholics live alongside them in peace and cooperation.

Then they got popular and the Vatican invented the Inquisition to wipe them off the face of the earth. Which they did. They exterminated the population of large areas of France and Spain. The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

All in all, as religions go they had a lot to offer sane people - especially considering the era in which they flourished.

Cool story bro. Fo' reals an ****.

Seriously though, thanks for the info, didn't know much about them.

krudler

LivelineDipso wrote: »

I have been reading about this heretical sect in the middle ages called the cathars. These guys were amazing. The believed the bible was evil and the catholic church was a tool of the devil. They saw Jesus as just a decent guy with good ideas and who was not our saviour, as we did not need saving. They said the idea of Original Sin was a evil and malevolent lie invented by the Devil (who was the God of the Old Testement) to control people.

They believed that there was no god as such - well God was an idea in the minds of humans, but a useful one if approached correctly. Thet said the material world was an illusion created by the mind and one's purpose in life is to be kind and do something useful. Where the cathars lived - moslems, jews and catholics live alongside them in peace and cooperation.

Then they got popular and the Vatican invented the Inquisition to wipe them off the face of the earth. Which they did. They exterminated the population of large areas of France and Spain. The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

All in all, as religions go they had a lot to offer sane people - especially considering the era in which they flourished.

I like the cut of their jib.

SafeSurfer

Labyrinth?

RainMaker

Read about them a few years ago, interesting beliefs alright. I believe the term "Cathar" was given to them by the Catholic church as well, who tried to denounce them as "Cat worshippers"

I think there was some political undertones to their extermination as well - land promised to kings of France and Spain if they got rid of them.

Overall another dirty chapter in the history of the Catholic church.

gobnaitolunacy

LivelineDipso wrote: »

I have been reading about this heretical sect in the middle ages called the cathars. These guys were amazing. The believed the bible was evil and the catholic church was a tool of the devil. .

How did they not believe in God, yet believe in the Devil?

pablomakaveli

Well this is an interesting group and i wish to learn more.

To wikipedia i go.

BizzyC

Does the Catholic Church have any "Clean" chapters in their history?

--Kaiser--

The word 'catharsis' derives from the purge that was enacted on these people.

Check out this episode, lovely chaps those Catholics

When Bram fell in 1210, 100 prisoners had their noses cropped, their lips cut off and their eyes gauged out. One man was left with one eye so that he could guide the others away. With a hand on the shoulder of the one in front, and the one-eyed man at their head, a file of blind prisoners wound its way to Lastours (Cabaret), a visible demonstration of the ineffable mercy of God's Christian Army.

WhatNowForUs?

Im very suspicious of any religion that uses the terms devil or evil in it.

--Kaiser--

WhatNowForUs? wrote: »

Im very suspicious of any religion that uses the terms devil or evil in it.

FYP

LivelineDipso

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

How did they not believe in God, yet believe in the Devil?

They saw them both as concepts, allegory more than actual beings. Similar to Carl Jung's archetypes. The terms represented the stuggle between good and evil inside the human condition before concepts such as psychology were invented.

Dyr

LivelineDipso wrote: »

The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

Was'nt the pope, it was one of the local lords types during the massacres.

Cathars also took it up the jacksie, allegedly.

Sarky

I'm sure if you read Wikipedia with an open heart, you'll realise that it was all just metaphorical torture.

Can we just assume philologos has already flown in, posted stuff, and buggered off once questions get tough for him? He seems to be ignoring me lately so if someone else could mention it to him, that'd be great.

LivelineDipso

Bambi wrote: »

Was'nt the pope, it was one of the local lords types during the massacres.

Cathars also took it up the jacksie, allegedly.

Yes it was a birth control method. They beleived that sex for love and pleasure was perfectly fine.

They also had some interesting ideas about sin. They beleived the God of the world was evil - so blasphmey was considered closer to human nature.

Benny_Cake

Unfortunately, most of what we know about the Cathars was written by the same people responsible for trying to wipe them out. Some of which is dubious and far fetched, such as the claim that they engaged in exotic sex practices with cats. For anyone interested there is an excellent book about them "The Perfect Heresy" by Stephen O'Shea.

old hippy

The Purrrrrfect Heresy?

Gummy Panda

LivelineDipso wrote: »

The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

I imagined Jeremy Irons saying that

Red Pepper

BizzyC wrote: »

Does the Catholic Church have any "Clean" chapters in their history?

Of course they do!

My favourite pope is Formosus. Top guy. Read about his trial here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Formosus

Wibbs

LivelineDipso wrote: »

YThey beleived that sex for love and pleasure was perfectly fine.

Not from what I recall. IIRC they avoided sex as they were quite ascetic in outlook. Didn't eat any meat etc. They were an update of Arianism type thinking.

They beleived the God of the world was evil

A couple of herertical sects had the same notion, that the god of the old testament was the devil/evil force and that the clues were there to be found. Makes as much sense as the other viewpoint. the OT god is a murderous, inconsistent, nutbag who is only to happy to slaughter millions.

joydivision

Could these cathars not just have kept their beliefs to themselves and pretending to be catholic .
Why did they die for this . Id be all yeah priest god and stuff . Mad isnt it . Dont chop me nose off .
Then go back to buggering cats when he left .
Never understood it .

LivelineDipso

The best records on the Cathars are derived from Islamic accounts.

The Vatican hatred spawned from their Gnostic origins which rejected the idea that Jesus died on the cross or he was the son of God. That the entire Biblical canon (post Nicea) was a propaganda distortion and devious mind trick which left many important text out such as the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Mary Magdelene.

The discovery the Nag Hamadi Library in 1945 more or less aligned the Cathar beliefs with Egyptian Gnoticism in that the 'reality' in terms of how humans experience it was created by an psychotic entity called the Demerigu who was also Yahweh the God of the Old Testement. The Cathars coming much later than the Gnostics incorported some extra Jewish and Arabic mysticism into their code. But essentially at its core was the same as the Gnostic.

Whom the catholic church also exterminated with vicious, murderous brutality. Funny that.

LivelineDipso

joydivision wrote: »

Could these cathars not just have kept their beliefs to themselves and pretending to be catholic .
Why did they die for this . Id be all yeah priest god and stuff . Mad isnt it . Dont chop me nose off .
Then go back to buggering cats when he left .
Never understood it .

They made the mistake of assuming that all religions were as easy going and humane as they were.

Like the natives who ran to the beaches to greet the Pinta, Nina and Santa Maria.

krudler

Wibbs wrote: »

Not from what I recall. IIRC they avoided sex as they were quite ascetic in outlook. Didn't eat any meat etc. They were an update of Arianism type thinking.

A couple of herertical sects had the same notion, that the god of the old testament was the devil/evil force and that the clues were there to be found. Makes as much sense as the other viewpoint. the OT god is a murderous, inconsistent, nutbag who is only to happy to slaughter millions.

that was his acting out phase, everyone calms down once the first kid comes along.

Conall Cernach

Bambi wrote: »

Cathars also took it up the jacksie, allegedly.

That was one of the "sins" that the Templars were accused of too. The Catholic Church really has some sort of weird anal fixation going on.

LivelineDipso

The Cathars were respected for their goodness, even by their opponents. The Catholic Bernard of Clairveaux writes:

"If you interrogate them, no one could be more Christian. As to their conversation, nothing can be less reprehensible, and what they speak they prove by deeds. As for the morals of the heretics, they cheat no one, they oppress no one, they strike no one."

1ZRed

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Labyrinth?

Emeli Sandé?

Carawaystick

see a bit more on them http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

they used to live here

here

and here

pretty backs to the wall places to live

Jezek

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

The word 'catharsis' derives from the purge that was enacted on these people.

Check out this episode, lovely chaps those Catholics

sorry but as a pedant, I feel I have to point out that Catharsis is a much older word than these boys, and comes from Greek. That is all!

Auldloon

Carcassonne in south of France is a walled cathar city. It's really well preserved and a huge tourist attraction. Done the tour a few times years ago but can't remember much except that they were veggies and were besieged by the popes army until starvation and disease got them. If you are ever in the south of France I highly recommend a visit.

Shryke

Auldloon wrote: »

Carcassonne in south of France is a walled cathar city. It's really well preserved and a huge tourist attraction. Done the tour a few times years ago but can't remember much except that they were veggies and were besieged by the popes army until starvation and disease got them. If you are ever in the south of France I highly recommend a visit.

Is the castle building game Carcasonne in anyway related to this period of history?

Ellis Dee

"A sane religion" ??? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Pity there isn't a Nobel Oxymoron Prize.

If there was, you'd be on a plane to Stockholm pretty soon. Maybe Enda would give you a lift on the government jet when he goes there for the Peace Prize. :)

BBDBB

LivelineDipso wrote: »

I have been reading about this heretical sect in the middle ages called the cathars.

Then they got popular and the Vatican invented the Inquisition to wipe them off the face of the earth. Which they did. They exterminated the population of large areas of France and Spain. The Pope when told that there was a chance of innocent catholic being killed by accident he replied. "Kill them all, God will know his own".

.

No one expected that

ejmaztec

Sarky wrote: »

I'm sure if you read Wikipedia with an open heart, you'll realise that it was all just metaphorical torture.

Can we just assume philologos has already flown in, posted stuff, and buggered off once questions get tough for him? He seems to be ignoring me lately so if someone else could mention it to him, that'd be great.

At least Philologos doesn't get personal.

RaRaRasputin

Yeah they seem alright like this, but the church had their reasons to have them eliminated. You will find chapters on the Cathars in every anthology on medieval heresy because they originally just deviated from the allowed norm. However, they weren't as golden as you might think and also had their fair share of corruption and greed...
Though I surely don't condone such a persecution/killing spree I can see where the stupid church was coming from and had to control their power.

Sarky

ejmaztec wrote: »

At least Philologos doesn't get personal.

Neither does he get specific, or get to the point, or get around to reading any counter-argument that challenges his shaky attempts at logic. I'm just kind of a prude like that.

Seaneh

Sarky wrote: »

Can we just assume philologos has already flown in, posted stuff, and buggered off once questions get tough for him? He seems to be ignoring me lately so if someone else could mention it to him, that'd be great.

Jesus, does attack the post not the poster not apply if the person being attack hasn't even posted in the thread?

:rolleyes:

Sarky

Sorry, I'll f*ck off back to my own country, will I?

Nodin

Wibbs wrote: »

Not from what I recall. IIRC they avoided sex as they were quite ascetic in outlook. Didn't eat any meat etc. They were an update of Arianism type thinking.

A couple of herertical sects had the same notion, that the god of the old testament was the devil/evil force and that the clues were there to be found. Makes as much sense as the other viewpoint. the OT god is a murderous, inconsistent, nutbag who is only to happy to slaughter millions.

Well worth a read if ye haven't already. From inquisition records
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Montaillou-Cathars-Catholics-Village-1294-1324/dp/0140137009/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1353520378&sr=8-1#_

Seaneh

LivelineDipso wrote: »

left many important text out such as the Gospel of Judas and the Gospel of Mary Magdelene.

I think you will find that those "Gospels" (of which most are not even Gnostic in nature) were left out of the bible for a variety of reasons, such as the earliest versions not appearing until the late 3rd century, their emergence hundreds of miles of Palestine, the fact that they do not align with any other Christian documents and the fact that they were so isolated and contradictory to even themselves that there could be no other sane conclusion to reach than their being a 3rd century fraud.

But hey, that won't sound as good in a Dan Browne style nonsensical fiction thriller.

Seaneh

Sarky wrote: »

Sorry, I'll f*ck off back to my own country, will I?

Try to stay on topic here Sarky, and don't be so precious.

:rolleyes:

ejmaztec

Sarky wrote: »

Neither does he get specific, or get to the point, or get around to reading any counter-argument that challenges his shaky attempts at logic. I'm just kind of a prude like that.

... as I already said, at least he doesn't get personal

Benny_Cake

Seaneh wrote: »

I think you will find that those "Gospels" (of which most are not even Gnostic in nature) were left out of the bible for a variety of reasons, such as the earliest versions not appearing until the late 3rd century, their emergence hundreds of miles of Palestine, the fact that they do not align with any other Christian documents and the fact that they were so isolated and contradictory to even themselves that there could be no other sane conclusion to reach than their being a 3rd century fraud.

But hey, that won't sound as good in a Dan Browne style nonsensical fiction thriller.

It also seems highly unlikely that the Cathars would have been aware of the existence of these texts.

JupiterKid

It's interesting that this thread has popped up because I'm reading a novel that has a resurrected Cathar sect in its plot. I never heard about them until I read the book.

From what I gather, the Cathars lived a fairly ascetic life not unlike Buddhism and had an inner circle of devoted called the Perfecti - who could be either men or women.

The Cathars flourished for a while in the 12th to the 14th centuries in the South of France and in pockets in Northern Italy, but were denounced as heretics by the Vatican and brutally eradicated.

There was also the Lollards of England who came along a bit later, they criticised the Vatican for corruption, opulence, decadence and idolatry and losing the real word of God. IMO Lollards were essentially pre-Reformation Protestants. Like the Cathars, the Lollards of the 1380s to the 1420s were brutally crushed.

It was inevitable that the Reformation would happen eventually. You can't have a monolithic power based on so called religion without someone disagreeing and breaking away at some point.

philologos

Seaneh wrote: »

Jesus, does attack the post not the poster not apply if the person being attack hasn't even posted in the thread?

:rolleyes:

People like me were slaughtered in the Inquisition and in the counter-reformation. I find it disturbing that people think I would glorify that in the name of Jesus. Particularly when the apostles evangelised peacefully and were martyred. The RCC went nuts with power.

Winty

JupiterKid wrote: »

It's interesting that this thread has popped up because I'm reading a novel that has a resurrected Cathar sect in its plot. I never heard about them until I read the book.
.

Hi what's the novel called? It's an interesting subject

JupiterKid

Winty wrote: »

Hi what's the novel called? It's an interesting subject

The Colour of a Dog Running Away by Richard Gwyn.

Custardpi

Anyone know of a good documentary on these guys? From what I've read it's a fascinating story.

Seaneh

Custardpi wrote: »

Anyone know of a good documentary on these guys? From what I've read it's a fascinating story.

Seconded. Ive read a fair bit about them and them seemed like a rather interesting people. Would love to see more.

LivelineDipso

The restrictive diet thing is used by cults to control their members. Usually they are low protein as the neural plasticity of the human brain needs animal fat to build itself. It's been long known that keeping people on the same diet affects people's critical thinking.

They probably were defeated in battle because of the veggie diets too. The Iquisition would of given their troops loads of meat leading up to the attacks.

The more I read about the cathars they seemed like a typical cult. Walled up in compounds, restrictive diets, told the rest of the world is evil, constant music, dancing and working. Sexual denial. Even the idea of having no secrets among the sect is a classic cult mind control technique to get into people's minds to manipulate and blackmail them.

Their ending even reminds me of how it went at Waco. Sad in both cases.