Rafa New Chelsea Manager . .

Kirby

Essien wrote: »

Apart from that time he challenged for the premiership obviously.

"Challenged" is just another way of saying "lost" or "didn't win". Is that really a feather for your cap? In that case, Arsenal have been challenging for a decade

Do you think Fergie is proud of "challenging" for the title last year? Or was he pissed off beyond belief, as he has said. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Benitez should be slated. I think he's a decent manager. He may even be good for Chelsea. Who knows? But what I do know is that comparisons between him and guys like Mourinho are a little silly. There is none.

Essien

quarryman wrote: »

Correction. Win the premiership.

Fair enough.

Melion made the point that he would dominate with City, which I agree with but we'll leave that side for the minute, lets just assume we're saying he could win the league with them, which you've said he isn't good enough to do.

Hypothetically...

The team at his disposal would be reasonably stronger than that Liverpool side.
His resources would also be limitless in comparison.
Not to mention his main rivals, United and Chelsea, being relatively weaker than they were back then too.

Now bear in mind he only lost that one by 4 points, is it really hard to imagine that he could do it under these much improved circumstances?

Paul Tergat

Melion wrote: »

Want to actually add to the discussion or are you just here for the mega lOlZ?

I cant believe its a serious comment. Dominate English football for as long as he wants? Its delusion

quarryman

niallo27 wrote: »

Do the titles he won in Spain count, I hear that Madrid crowd and barca are decent enough.

No. Why would I say the premiership if I wanted to include Spanish teams.

ffs.

redzerdrog

some amount of idiots in this thread to be fair

love the way some people hate rafa so much it completely blinkers their views

Kirby

Essien wrote: »

Fair enough.

Melion made the point that he would dominate with City, which I agree with but we'll leave that side for the minute, lets just assume we're saying he could win the league with them, which you've said he isn't good enough to do.

Hypothetically...

The team at his disposal would be reasonably stronger than that Liverpool side.
His resources would also be limitless in comparison.
Not to mention his main rivals, United and Chelsea, being relatively weaker that the were back then too.

Now bear in mind he only lost that one by 4 points, is it really hard to imagine that he could do it under these much improved circumstances?

I would argue that statement. The Chelsea squad now, is actually better than it was back then. Essein and Drogba are badly missed, but the rest of the team is actually stronger.

They are underachieving.

Aenaes

Mancini is an ordinary manager and Benetiz getting written off as a nobody?
You poor Sky-brainwashed, Premiership loving fools. Just check their records please.

Essien

Kirby wrote: »

"Challenged" is just another way of saying "lost" or "didn't win". Is that really a feather for your cap? In that case, Arsenal have been challenging for a decade

Do you think Fergie is proud of "challenging" for the title last year? Or was he pissed off beyond belief, as he has said. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Benitez should be slated. I think he's a decent manager. He may even be good for Chelsea. Who knows? But what I do know is that comparisons between him and guys like Mourinho are a little silly. There is none.

Who's making comparisons between him and Jose? Or Fergie for that matter in case you're implying that? FTR, I think he is in the bracket below those two, with a sizable gap between them. But you don't need to be either of those two to win the league with City, which is what I've claimed he could do, as well as being a very good manager.

Essien

Kirby wrote: »

I would argue that statement. The Chelsea squad now, is actually better than it was back then. Essein and Drogba are badly missed, but the rest of the team is actually stronger.

They are underachieving.

And yet we remain adrift in third, it's marginal though in fairness, I'll give you that.

Kingdom

Essien wrote: »

And yet we remain adrift in third, it's marginal though in fairness, I'll give you that.

I'm a Rafa fanboy. Always have been, always will be. His problem at his last three clubs has been having to decide between which players to prioritise. To be fair to Ferguson, it is a problem he has never had to worry about, not in the PL era anyway.

RB won't give a hoot about Boardroom interference so long as he is given money. He would get that at Chelsea and City. Moratti is a nutcase and the Spoofers have ruined LFC for the short-term. Ironically enough, imo, if FSG had hired Rafa, and backed him like they backed KEnny, I think LFC would have walked into the top 4.

With one or two, maybe three signings maximum, Chelsea will be in cruise mode. They array of attacking talent they have is incredible. And to be fair, Piazon hasn't appeared out of nowhere, he's always been touted as a potential superstar.
I reckon they need a new leader at Centre Half. They need a new top of the line keeper, and they need another quality striker.
They have everything else in between.

Rafa has the tactical nous to give them the edge in the tight games with the top three, or other CL teams, he proved that often enough in high-octane one-off games with Liverpool.

Kirby

Kingdom wrote: »

Ironically enough, imo, if FSG had hired Rafa, and backed him like they backed KEnny, I think LFC would have walked into the top 4.

Ofcourse we are speaking hypothetically here, but I wouldn't be so sure.

People talk about the waste of money in the Kenny era.....and they would be hugely right. But Rafa bought alot of dross too and I think people forget that. It was just that it was cheaper dross because he had less money to spend than Kenny. There is no guaruntee that if given the same money he would have done any better. Even the best in the business buy lemons so I think talk of "walking" into the top 4 are a bit pie in the sky.

Kingdom

Kirby wrote: »

Ofcourse we are speaking hypothetically here, but I wouldn't be so sure.

People talk about the waste of money in the Kenny era.....and they would be hugely right. But Rafa bought alot of dross too and I think people forget that. It was just that it was cheaper dross because he had less money to spend than Kenny. There is no guaruntee that if given the same money he would have done any better. Even the best in the business buy lemons so I think talk of "walking" into the top 4 are a bit pie in the sky.

I can accept that, however, even when there was money to be spent, Rafa had to implement a sell-to-buy policy. I think a lot of people's judgement is swayed by the fact that he tried to sell alonso to just buy Barry, which wasn't as simple or as stupid as it sounds.
Like a lot of things when it comes to football, nothing is black and white. We hear of the 75000 players Rafa signed and sold, irrespective of whether they were first team players, youth players or part-exchange deals. When the academy was redeveloped, at Rafa's behest due to the purse strings being tight. Even look at the likes of Suso, Pacheco. One will probably flourish for the first team, and one will probably flourish elsewhere, but both were positive for the club as they had a profound effect on the standards expected for the academy and have left a template for those following to adopt. It's not always about the first team.

But back on topic (slightly): given pretty unlimited spending do I think Rafa would be successful at Chelsea? No doubt in my mind.

~Rebel~

Kirby wrote: »

I would argue that statement. The Chelsea squad now, is actually better than it was back then. Essein and Drogba are badly missed, but the rest of the team is actually stronger.

They are underachieving.

Personally I think they're weaker now, quite a bit in fact. A hell of a lot less strength in depth than they had - Chelsea used to be able to put up 2 completely different world class teams with their squad list in the past, which is definitely not the case anymore. Midfield is weaker, centre forward is weaker and defense is weaker (slightly, but an aging Terry compared to a young Terry is a big difference considering his influence in their best years). Attacking midfield they're strong, maybe slightly stronger than they were in the past, but that's the only area in which this is the case imo.

Kirby wrote: »

Ofcourse we are speaking hypothetically here, but I wouldn't be so sure.

People talk about the waste of money in the Kenny era.....and they would be hugely right. But Rafa bought alot of dross too and I think people forget that. It was just that it was cheaper dross because he had less money to spend than Kenny. There is no guaruntee that if given the same money he would have done any better. Even the best in the business buy lemons so I think talk of "walking" into the top 4 are a bit pie in the sky.

I think the fact it was cheaper dross is the point though. When you spend less money, the risk should go up. When Rafa took risks sometimes it worked, sometimes it didn't. You end up with a Dossena flop, and an Arbeloa success. A Gonzalez flop and a Riera success (I know things fell apart off the pitch with him, but he contributed massively in 08/09).

With real money to spend though, Rafa was a lot more reliable than Kenny. His only big money flops really were Aquilani (who I think we can all agree was a very good footballer, but had some other issues going on in the background - and who knows how he'd have done if Rafa had still been there considering he ended Rafa's last season in great form before Roy turfed him out) and Keane. At least with Keane he made nearly all the money back too. To a degree one could include Babel too, though at the time he was an incredible prospect that I and most others who had seen him were delighted with. He didn't develop unfortunately. Aside from those guys, Rafa's "big money buys" ended up being bargains - and that's ignoring all the other guys who would have been in the 10-20 bracket that he wasn't given the money for, who ended up doubling or tripling in value when they went elswhere.

Rafa's big money guys are what got us to our best 2 premiership campaigns and number 1 seed in europe. I'd have more faith in him with money to spend than I would in 99% of other managers.

Xavi6

counterlock wrote: »

Would you have him at city Xavi?

Not while we're competing for titles no. I wouldn't change Mancini for anyone at the moment.

Kirby

~Rebel~ wrote: »

Personally I think they're weaker now, quite a bit in fact. A hell of a lot less strength in depth than they had - Chelsea used to be able to put up 2 completely different world class teams with their squad list in the past, which is definitely not the case anymore. Midfield is weaker, centre forward is weaker and defense is weaker (slightly, but an aging Terry compared to a young Terry is a big difference considering his influence in their best years). Attacking midfield they're strong, maybe slightly stronger than they were in the past, but that's the only area in which this is the case imo..

Midfield weaker? Dunno bout that. And "slightly stronger attacking midfield " is being hugely disingenuous. Compare Malouda to Hazard. Or Kalou to Mata. The slow and lumbering Ballack in midfield compared to the energetic Ramires. The only attacking player that they had then that would get in the current team is Robben, and he didn't stay very long. They have definitely traded up in that department.

And the defense wasn't all ship shape back then either. Remember when Paolo Ferrara was first choice? I'd take Azpilicueta over him at right back any day of the week. I also think in Courtois that they have one of the best keepers out there for the next decade.

Up front, as I said they will miss Drogba. Torres isn't the force he was but I think we all know a striker will be bought pretty soon with the likely candidate being Falcao.

I dunno. Maybe I'm overating them. Perhaps I am. But I look at the talent chelsea have all over the pitch and I wonder how they still arent top of the table. I wonder would a better manager have kept their great start to the season going.

~Rebel~

Kirby wrote: »

Midfield weaker? Dunno bout that. And "slightly stronger attacking midfield " is being hugely disingenuous. Compare Malouda to Hazard. Or Kalou to Mata. The slow and lumbering Ballack in midfield compared to the energetic Ramires. The only attacking player that they had then that would get in the current team is Robben, and he didn't stay very long. They have definitely traded up in that department.

And the defense wasn't all ship shape back then either. Remember when Paolo Ferrara was first choice? I'd take Azpilicueta over him at right back any day of the week. I also think in Courtois that they have one of the best keepers out there for the next decade.

Up front, as I said they will miss Drogba. Torres isn't the force he was but I think we all know a striker will be bought pretty soon with the likely candidate being Falcao.

I dunno. Maybe I'm overating them. Perhaps I am. But I look at the talent chelsea have all over the pitch and I wonder how they still arent top of the table. I wonder would a better manager have kept their great start to the season going.

I think you're underrating the guys who won the leagues before to be honest. Instead of comparing people to Kalou and Malouda, compare them to Duff and Robben - what is one of the best wing partnerships I've ever seen. Absolutely terrifying.

Midfield - Makelele, Essien and Lampard is amongst the greatest centre midfields ever assembled.

Sure, they had right back issues fairly consistently, but Gallas and Terry in their prime were immense, absolutely magnificent.

Up front it's the weakest they've been in 8 or so years. 1 out and out centre forward, and he's only just coming into some form now.

Cech at that point too was on a different level to what he is now.

I mean, as you said, they may bring in Falcao, and Courtois looks like he could be a great player - but as it stands, I'd have the 2005-2009 teams ahead of the current one any day of the week.

MUSEIST

~Rebel~ wrote: »

I think you're underrating the guys who won the leagues before to be honest. Instead of comparing people to Kalou and Malouda, compare them to Duff and Robben - what is one of the best wing partnerships I've ever seen. Absolutely terrifying.

Midfield - Makelele, Essien and Lampard is amongst the greatest centre midfields ever assembled.

Sure, they had right back issues fairly consistently, but Gallas and Terry in their prime were immense, absolutely magnificent.

Up front it's the weakest they've been in 8 or so years. 1 out and out centre forward, and he's only just coming into some form now.

Cech at that point too was on a different level to what he is now.

I mean, as you said, they may bring in Falcao, and Courtois looks like he could be a great player - but as it stands, I'd have the 2005-2009 teams ahead of the current one any day of the week.

No doubt the current chelsea team is far weaker to previous chelsea teams mentioned but one thing the current team has is youth. Players like courtois, hazard, mata, oscar, moses, lukaku and a few other have the potential to get much better over the next few years as they settle into the premier league and naturally progress with age. It's impossible to tell at this moment whether they could potentially match previous chelsea teams and only time will tell.

monkey9

Utd fans still getting worked up about Rafa?? Haha!! You'd swear he was sh!te. He's no Roy Hodgson though. Utd fans rate Roy Hodgson.

counterlock

monkey9 wrote: »

Utd fans still getting worked up about Rafa?? Haha!! You'd swear he was sh!te. He's no Roy Hodgson though. Utd fans rate Roy Hodgson.

Poor monkey. You seem to spend more time on here posting about Utd fans than anything else.

Sgt Pepper 64

MUSEIST wrote: »

No doubt the current chelsea team is far weaker to previous chelsea teams mentioned but one thing the current team has is youth. Players like courtois, hazard, mata, oscar, moses, lukaku and a few other have the potential to get much better over the next few years as they settle into the premier league and naturally progress with age. It's impossible to tell at this moment whether they could potentially match previous chelsea teams and only time will tell.

Even the best players can be handicapped by the tactics a manager employs.
In Chelsea's case, we have 2 things working against the players.
An owner who demands instant success and a certain style, but then doesnt fully provide all the players necessary for that style and constant manager rotation, often taking 1 step forward and 2 back.
Look at City, should really be a lot closer to Utd than they are, but some strange team choices and tactics have meant they arent.
With Chelsea, RDM tightened things up and played to our strengths in the old Mourinho style and team. Then, in Romans eyes, he failed when trying to lossen things up a bit and be more barca like, playing 3 No10's who didnt like defending or tracking back.
Enter Rafa, with no pressure other than to get results (like when RDM was just an interim), who then swaps Oscar for a more defensively minded player like Moses, moves Luiz out of defence and voila - more the old Mourinho chelsea reappears.
Roman needs to accept that building a team and style takes time and that you cant have a team playing so wide open and full on attack all the time

I''ve said it before. Roman is both a blessing and a curse, and in some ways the league should be grateful for his achilles heel of craving instant Barca style success

Will I Amnt

counterlock wrote: »

Poor monkey. You seem to spend more time on here posting about Utd fans than anything else.

But I thought it was us that's obsessed

What makes that all the funnier is that no United fan had posted in days before that comment, random obsession :pac:

Will I Amnt

Melion wrote: »

So, how have the opinions changed now?

No :pac:

Blatter

Melion wrote: »

So, how have the opinions changed now?

You were saying?

counterlock

Domintating for as long as he likes. Indeed

mike65

Apart from Ba (in for Sturridge) did Chelsea buy anyone? Who's faulty is that?

MUSEIST

I fully expect rafa to be the former chelsea manager by late this evening.

mike65

and whoever replaces him will also be an ex Chelsea manager by May. Stupid club basically

counterlock

mike65 wrote: »

Apart from Ba (in for Sturridge) did Chelsea buy anyone? Who's faulty is that?

In fairness mike, you'd need to be insane to give a caretaker manager a blank cheque book :pac:

MUSEIST

mike65 wrote: »

and whoever replaces him will also be an ex Chelsea manager by May. Stupid club basically

Your right but it's about damage limitation at this stage. Chelsea need a manager who gets the best out of the players and benitez is not doing that, so he shoukd be sacked seen as he is only the interim manager. No point in keeping a temp manager if it's not working out.

niallo27

The players have to take most of the blame though, if they are good enough to get into a winning position they must be good enough to hold out. There is no heart about them, they know everyone will blame Rafa and not them. A lot of spineless players at that club.

pistolpetes11

mike65 wrote: »

and whoever replaces him will also be an ex Chelsea manager by May. Stupid club basically

He was the wrong man for the job and should never of been brought in , tactically he has been brutal .

The sooner he is gone the better , and he can take that other fella with him too

Hank Scorpio

From being in a position to challenge for the league to insecurity about finishing in the top 4, Rafa has sure done a fine job as Chelsea manager. *Inter flashback/Liverpool Flashback*

MUSEIST

nuxxx wrote: »

From being in a position to challenge for the league to insecurity about finishing in the top 4, Rafa has sure done a fine job as Chelsea manager. *Inter flashback/Liverpool Flashback*

We have got progressivly worse since he came in, especially in defence.

Will I Amnt

Players have to take their share of the blame but if they're not performing it's up to the manager to drop them or get the best out of them. There's no excuse for dropping points from a winning position in your last 3 games against Reading, Southampton and Newcastle.
That's where the manager shows his worth in seeing a game out.

Essien

I stand by everything I said in this thread and other threads regarding Rafa, I still think he's a top manager. The position as Chelsea manager right now is untenable, it would have been hard enough for any manager, never mind Rafa who was never going to get the fans off his back. How can you get the best out of players who know your a whim away from being sacked?

As long as the club continues with the managerial roundabout, we'll struggle to get the best out of our squad.

niallo27

nuxxx wrote: »

From being in a position to challenge for the league to insecurity about finishing in the top 4, Rafa has sure done a fine job as Chelsea manager. *Inter flashback/Liverpool Flashback*

Were liverpool in a position to win the league when he took over.

Anyone

cambo2008 wrote: »

Players have to take their share of the blame but if they're not performing it's up to the manager to drop them or get the best out of them. There's no excuse for dropping points from a winning position in your last 3 games against Reading, Southampton and Newcastle.
That's where the manager shows his worth in seeing a game out.

How many managers have to take the blame before it turns to the players?

theoneeyedman

The only man to take over this time IMO is JTerry. Him and other senior players effectively got AVB ran before rowing in behind RDM temporarily when Roman laid itin the line that he wanted no more ****e from them last season. Rafa is a decent manager IMO with a top 4 pedigree if probably not at the absolute top like Alex arsene pep etc. He took probably an ill advised gamble joining Chelsea who from the outside are a joke of a club. Its a pity there isn't a Being.....Chelsea type behind the scenes program over the last few years cause it would be one he'll of a soap opera, with shootings, a Godfather type figure, managers being met off the bus with their desks cleared in the middle of the night, shenanigans with players and former team mates wives.....you couldn't make it up

MUSEIST

theoneeyedman wrote: »

The only man to take over this time IMO is JTerry. Him and other senior players effectively got AVB ran before rowing in behind RDM temporarily when Roman laid itin the line that he wanted no more ****e from them last season. Rafa is a decent manager IMO with a top 4 pedigree if probably not at the absolute top like Alex arsene pep etc. He took probably an ill advised gamble joining Chelsea who from the outside are a joke of a club. Its a pity there isn't a Being.....Chelsea type behind the scenes program over the last few years cause it would be one he'll of a soap opera, with shootings, a Godfather type figure, managers being met off the bus with their desks cleared in the middle of the night, shenanigans with players and former team mates wives.....you couldn't make it up

The above post contains factual inaccuracies. Just so people know.

Hank Scorpio

niallo27 wrote: »

Were liverpool in a position to win the league when he took over.

They were consistently finishing in the top though so you could say they were in a position to challenge with a little strengthening.

My comment is tongue in cheek anyway, the main problem at Chelsea is the owner

Will I Amnt

Anyone wrote: »

How many managers have to take the blame before it turns to the players?

Players always have to take the blame, they're the ones on the pitch. Man for man Chelsea have arguably the best team in the league. Benitez is not getting the best out of them so he should shoulder the larger part of the blame.

MUSEIST

cambo2008 wrote: »

Players always have to take the blame, they're the ones on the pitch. Man for man Chelsea have arguably the best team in the league. Benitez is not getting the best out of them so he should shoulder the larger part of the blame.

Exactly, plenty of people are blaming the players but the current manager is failing so bad in so many ways so he deserves the cristicisms he is getting.

Blatter

cambo2008 wrote: »

Players always have to take the blame, they're the ones on the pitch. Man for man Chelsea have arguably the best team in the league. Benitez is not getting the best out of them so he should shoulder the larger part of the blame.

I don't think so, they're a fair bit behind the Manchester clubs in terms of squad depth.

Maybe you could make a case for their first 11, but I wouldn't because they lack a world class striker.

They should be doing a lot better in the league with the players they do have though.

Will I Amnt

Blatter wrote: »

I don't think so, they're a fair bit behind the Manchester clubs in terms of squad depth.

Maybe you could make a case for their first 11, but I wouldn't because they lack a world class striker.

That's why I said team and not squad, and arguably instead of definitely :pac:

Professional Griefer

Wrong thread, woops.

Blatter

cambo2008 wrote: »

That's why I said team and not squad.

Say first 11 in future then :pac:

Team is a bit vague in fairness, I would usually take that to mean the squad rather than first 11.

Gbear

cambo2008 wrote: »

Players always have to take the blame, they're the ones on the pitch. Man for man Chelsea have arguably the best team in the league. Benitez is not getting the best out of them so he should shoulder the larger part of the blame.

No they don't.
It's not arguable.

They probably have a worse squad than Spurs at this stage.
Utd and City have comfortably better first 11s.

Will I Amnt

Blatter wrote: »

Say first 11 in future then :pac:

Team is a bit vague in fairness, I would usually take that to mean the squad rather than first 11.

Sorry kiddo, I'll be more consice in future

MUSEIST

Gbear wrote: »

No they don't.
It's not arguable.

They probably have a worse squad than Spurs at this stage.
Utd and City have comfortably better first 11s.

Not at all, they have vastly better striking options than chelsea but after that the first 11's are similar. They also have bigger squads than chelsea.

Courtesy Flush

MUSEIST wrote: »

Exactly, plenty of people are blaming the players but the current manager is failing so bad in so many ways so he deserves the cristicisms he is getting.

The Chelsea owner needs to start taking responsibility for his decisions. I am assuming he has a big say if not complete in appointing managers
Rafa had been out of the game for some time. His stint at Inter was a disaster as was his final months at Liverpool