Is pep really all that?

EdenHazard

That's one thing I'll give in Pep's favour actually. At the highest level football isn't a natural game, every move is pre determined. I know a few LOI players and they tell me that every aspect of their game is told to them, there isn't really that much freedom of thought, they are told where to run to, where to be, in different situations. I imagine this level of detail is even greater at the highest level.

Mr.Nice Guy

EdenHazard wrote: »

That's one thing I'll give in Pep's favour actually. At the highest level football isn't a natural game, every move is pre determined. I know a few LOI players and they tell me that every aspect of their game is told to them, there isn't really that much freedom of thought, they are told where to run to, where to be, in different situations. I imagine this level of detail is even greater at the highest level.

Come on now, you don't really believe this do you?

Corholio

Almost a ridiculous argument really. Only way we'll know is when he takes his next job. Even though I disliked the holier than thou attitude Barcelona seemed to have a for a while, Guardiola always came across well and you always got the sense that he really instilled a certain way of playing in the team, for which he has to be admired for.

He's in a strange position though, although no one can take away from what he has achieved, when he takes another job and if he is not successful, I fear, rightly or wrongly, that his success at Barca will be then more attributed to the players he had at his disposal. His signing record is pretty questionable too.

Maximus Alexander

I think it's plainly obvious that Pep is a talented manager any anyone saying otherwise is being foolhardy.

However, it would be silly to discount the fact that he had a lot of major advantages at Barcelona that he won't necessarily have at any other club. Including, a deep history with the club, its staff and some of its players, an extremely good youth system, some of the world's best players already on the books, and effectively unlimited transfer and wage funds.

The real question is, is he Andres Villas-Boas talented, Jose Mourinho talented or Alex Ferguson talented? The only answer I can see is that it's too soon to say and we will have a better idea once he spends a year or two in another job.

JPA

It's a bit like saying is Messi all that because he's only done it at one club and is surrounded by superstars.

Maximus Alexander

JPA wrote: »

It's a bit like saying is Messi all that because he's only done it at one club and is surrounded by superstars.

It's not really like that at all.

It's possible that Barcelona could be as successful as they were with a merely "good" manager. It's not really possible that Messi would have scored 190 odd goals in 230 odd games if he wasn't a great player.

pickarooney

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

The real question is, is he Andres Villas-Boas talented, Jose Mourinho talented or Alex Ferguson talented? The only answer I can see is that it's too soon to say and we will have a better idea once he spends a year or two in another job.

Maybe a good question would be if AVB is actually all that talented or if managing FC Porto is the easiest job in world football.

NIMAN

I think he is, and has been a great manager, but think he would struggle to emulate his Barca success at any other club, for a lot of reasons.

JPA

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

It's not really like that at all.

It's possible that Barcelona could be as successful as they were with a merely "good" manager. It's not really possible that Messi would have scored 190 odd goals in 230 odd games if he wasn't a great player.

Well, would Barcelona have reached the zany levels of complete football without Pep?
I don't think so.

Would Messi have 190 goals without Pep and Barca?

He'd always be a good player but his out of this world stats owe a lot to what Pep helped him become.

Ush1

gosplan wrote: »

In fairness that's just fawning over the guy.

I'm not sayng he isn't great, just looking for a discussion on it.

I don't think testemonials with players who won everything with him are evidence of anything and everyone can come up with a good quote.

What evidence exactly are you looking for?

PhlegmyMoses

JPA wrote: »

Well, would Barcelona have reached the zany levels of complete football without Pep?
I don't think so.

Would Messi have 190 goals without Pep and Barca?

He'd always be a good player but his out of this world stats owe a lot to what Pep helped him become.

You are probably right. But then the points people are putting across are suggesting that there was a certain set of circumstances at Barca that makes people wonder whether Pep will have the same impact at other clubs. Was Pep the right man for Barca at the time? Undoubtedly yes.

Will he do it at his next club? He will have to show that he is adaptable because no other club in the world currently can play the style of football he likes, has their **** together with regards to the youth system like Barca, and has the raw talent available to him like he had at Barca.

His next job will tell us more about his managerial qualities.

JPA

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

You are probably right. But then the points people are putting across are suggesting that there was a certain set of circumstances at Barca that makes people wonder whether Pep will have the same impact at other clubs. Was Pep the right man for Barca at the time? Undoubtedly yes.

Will he do it at his next club? He will have to show that he is adaptable because no other club in the world currently can play the style of football he likes, has their **** together with regards to the youth system like Barca, and has the raw talent available to him like he had at Barca.

His next job will tell us more about his managerial qualities.

But whatever he does next he has already proven himself by making Barca arguably the best club team ever.
It just seems people can't wait for him to try his hand somewhere else where he will undoubtedly not match Barcelona and they'll be lining up to bash him.

He may as well stay retired because he will never achieve more than he already has!

PhlegmyMoses

JPA wrote: »

But whatever he does next he has already proven himself by making Barca arguably the best club team ever.
It just seems people can't wait for him to try his hand somewhere else where he will undoubtedly not match Barcelona and they'll be lining up to bash him.

He may as well stay retired because he will never achieve more than he already has!

I'm not lining up to bash him. I like the guy and would love him at United when Fergie leaves.

You are still missing the point. Perhaps no other manager could have done what he did at Barca. He was the right man for the job. Everything was a perfect fit.

But he never had to show half of the managerial skills other managers have had to. Massively changing the tactics to accommodate for another good team's strengths. Contending with losing your best players because they fancy going to a bigger club, warmer climes, want more money. New signings being incredibly important, make or break deals. Not being able to play your favourite style because you just don't have the players to do it. having to spend spend spend at the start because the youth system at the club you are at has been neglected for 20 years.

I appreciate the sentiment that you can only play the hand you are dealt but it doesn't mean we can't speculate as to how he would get on elsewhere. luckily, we'll find out. You can't take any of his achievements away from him, though.

dfx-

Zebra3 wrote: »

They lost away to Numancia and tbf, there was no major calling for his head, just a few journos writing crap to fill all the space in Marca and As.

Ah yes, so was it a draw against Racing in the first home game after that game. 2-2 or 1-1 from memory.

MaroonAndGreen

How could anyone have failed with the Barcelona team that Pep had..

His Barcelona success doesnt make him a top class manager yet IMO!

miralize

MaroonAndGreen wrote: »

How could anyone have failed with the Barcelona team that Pep had..

His Barcelona success doesnt make him a top class manager yet IMO!

Of course it does.

Jax Teller

miralize wrote: »

Of course it does.

Under your new manager I believe you have made your best start to La Liga ever . Would he be regarded as a great manager ?

EdenHazard

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

Come on now, you don't really believe this do you?

Its true though. Sure then what the hell does a manager do? Decides on a formation and motivates, maybe in Football Manager.

T-K-O

What happened to Frank Rijkaard. He was the best thing since sliced bread when Manager of Barca.. Frank and Pep are very similar IMO

jesus_thats_gre

Your Airbag wrote: »

How many clubs employ the split centre backs or as others call it the Barca system?

Credit where credit is due on the effort put in your post but other clubs were doing this before Pep's Barca were doing it - Liverpool under Rafa being one that springs to mind, i.e the hold midfielder sitting deep while the centre backs push up either side of him to make what was a effectively a back 3 when in possession.

JPA

T-K-O wrote: »

What happened to Frank Rijkaard. He was the best thing since sliced bread when Manager of Barca.. Frank and Pep are very similar IMO

If Pep tries and fails compare them.

T-K-O

JPA wrote: »

If Pep tries and fails compare them.

Both guys did nothing until Barca, both guys were ear marked for greatness after Barca.

Of course Pep deserves a chance to prove himself but they are very similar.

764dak

Pep Guardiola is seriously overrated. He couldn't even think of another way to break down Chelsea when it was obvious those tactics weren't working. Tito Vilanova has an even better start to his reign as manager.

eugeneious

Have to laugh at Ibrahimovic's opinion of him in his autobiography! :L

“(Guardiola) was staring at me and I lost it. I thought ‘there is my enemy, scratching his bald head!’. I yelled to him: ‘You have no balls!’ and probably worse things than that.

“I added: ‘You are ****ting yourself because of Jose Mourinho. You can go to hell!’. I was completely mad. I threw a box full of training gear across the room, it crashed to the floor and Pep said nothing, just put stuff back in the box. I’m not violent, but if I were Guardiola I would have been frightened.”

Pro. F

eugeneious wrote: »

Have to laugh at Ibrahimovic's opinion of him in his autobiography! :L

What a bellend Ibra is.

Big Pussy Bonpensiero

eugeneious wrote: »

Have to laugh at Ibrahimovic's opinion of him in his autobiography! :L

“(Guardiola) was staring at me and I lost it. I thought ‘there is my enemy, scratching his bald head!’. I yelled to him: ‘You have no balls!’ and probably worse things than that.

“I added: ‘You are ****ting yourself because of Jose Mourinho. You can go to hell!’. I was completely mad. I threw a box full of training gear across the room, it crashed to the floor and Pep said nothing, just put stuff back in the box. I’m not violent, but if I were Guardiola I would have been frightened.”

Love that.

As for the thread, yes.

764dak

764dak wrote: »

Pep Guardiola is seriously overrated.

.

Shanotheslayer

764dak wrote: »

.

Yay. Let's judge him on 1 Semi Final. Lets take away everything else he has done. Lets take away his league win in record time. Lets take away that he's on for a double. Gtfo.

Oat23

He's not overrated. He is stubborn.

He could have won it all this season if he was willing to change, but he has said many times that he won't change. They hired him knowing his philosophy.

It's disappointing to see the team playing like this, when we all know how good they can be. Last seasons Bayern was my favourite club side to watch.*

*except when they played HSV

Pro. F

Ugh, dragging up this thread because of one cup tie is painfully stupid.

Liam O

Pro. F wrote: »

Ugh, dragging up this thread because of one cup tie is painfully stupid.

Especially since the people doing so have probably seen about 3 and a half Bayern games this season. They didn't draw United or Real last season so it's hardly like he's underperformed against a team they did well against last season...

Dont be at yourself

I may have only seen them for 4 or 5 games this season, but it's been games at the sharp end, the ones that separate the good teams from the great ones. They made heavy work of beating the poorest Man United side in my living memory, they lost 3-0 at home to Dortmund, and were thoroughly outplayed twice in a week by Real Madrid, without learning any lessons.

Anyone can steam-roll the Bundesliga, with a budget twice their nearest rivals, a team that's won the treble just the year before, and added one of their main rival's key players.

In the above cases against bigger teams, you can lay a large amount of blame at the door of Pep Guardiola and his dogmatic approach. That Barcelona team and Pep were a match made in heaven, but now the world is much more prepared for tiki-taka football, and Pep can't rely on Messi to conjure up a moment of magic to win these games.

Of course, he's still a great manager, but in his pig-headed inflexibility, he's going down the path of Arsene Wenger rather than that of a pragmatist like Mourinho or Ancelotti, and unless he can give up on this zealous pursuit of his idea of 'perfection', he's not going to achieve the same level of success -- indeed, his career will have already peaked.

LuckyLloyd

It's not just one cup tie, it's two. A limited Chelsea side reduced to 10 men for the majority of the second leg dug in and defeated Guardiolaball through discipline, organisation and will in 2012. Last night Guardiolaball was ripped to pieces by pace, power and precision.

It's been beaten in two completely different ways by two completely different teams in two cup ties.

kfallon

I honestly couldn't put it any better than Don't Be At Yourself just has!

kfallon

Liam O wrote: »

Especially since the people doing so have probably seen about 3 and a half Bayern games this season. They didn't draw United or Real last season so it's hardly like he's underperformed against a team they did well against last season...

They were average in the 4 games against Utd and Real.....and average is being kind to them!

Ulysses Gaze

When Pep's Plan A works it is fantastic.

More and more now we are seeing that there really is no Pep Plan B if they are up against it like last night (or when Bayern struggled at the Bernabeu).

Mr.Micro

Bayern clearly have a lot of talent in the squad. Pep is a very good manager, but he has neutralized Bayern in the way it plays. It has become so predictable in attack, so much so, that the opposition has time to get back into position, whilst the ball is being passed, passed and passed. Arsenal, Man United both gave Bayern a run for their money. Not, every team can be like Barca, that is what Pep has tried to do, make a Bayern Barca.

If he can adapt and have a variation of that, with more directness, then he will do well. Not sure he has that.

Agueroooo

I dont even think its stubbornness from him. I think he is just naive.

his current team and system will win him the German league, no sweat.
and will get him to the latter stages of the CL, no sweat.

but when it comes to the crunch stage of the CL his system (in its current form and lacking the players needed to maximise it) he has been seriously exposed.

last night would have been a big eye opener for him and the fans.

yes to a certain extent Bayern look to have regressed - that is natural considering the massive change in style that he imposed since only the summer, but I'm confident you will see him adapt and source a few more players that will enhance what he is trying to do.

ManofStraw

Yes he is all that, a fantastic manager really. I don't understand the approach of some people who seem to think of when your winning your the GOAT and as soon as you lose a game your written off as a nobody with an outdated approach. No team has retained the CL (in its modern fashion) therefore Bayern were probably the least likely team to win the CL this year. For everyone saying Tiki-Taka is dead, at least give the man another year at Bayern before writing the whole approach off.

EuropeanSon

ManofStraw wrote: »

Yes he is all that, a fantastic manager really. I don't understand the approach of some people who seem to think of when your winning your the GOAT and as soon as you lose a game your written off as a nobody with an outdated approach. No team has retained the CL (in its modern fashion) therefore Bayern were probably the least likely team to win the CL this year. For everyone saying Tiki-Taka is dead, at least give the man another year at Bayern before writing the whole approach off.

The bolded bit there is complete and utter nonsense, and evidence of a complete statistical illiteracy.

Liam O

Dont be at yourself wrote: »

I may have only seen them for 4 or 5 games this season, but it's been games at the sharp end, the ones that separate the good teams from the great ones. They made heavy work of beating the poorest Man United side in my living memory, they lost 3-0 at home to Dortmund, and were thoroughly outplayed twice in a week by Real Madrid, without learning any lessons.

Anyone can steam-roll the Bundesliga, with a budget twice their nearest rivals, a team that's won the treble just the year before, and added one of their main rival's key players.

In the above cases against bigger teams, you can lay a large amount of blame at the door of Pep Guardiola and his dogmatic approach. That Barcelona team and Pep were a match made in heaven, but now the world is much more prepared for tiki-taka football, and Pep can't rely on Messi to conjure up a moment of magic to win these games.

Of course, he's still a great manager, but in his pig-headed inflexibility, he's going down the path of Arsene Wenger rather than that of a pragmatist like Mourinho or Ancelotti, and unless he can give up on this zealous pursuit of his idea of 'perfection', he's not going to achieve the same level of success -- indeed, his career will have already peaked.

It might be the poorest United in terms of performance in memory but not in personnel. Having Rio and Vidic in the first leg saved United. The only way they could play was really deep. Evra scored a goal that wouldn't happen if he tried it 50 more times in the 2nd leg, Pep adapted and tore United a new one in the space of 10 mins. Real could do that to anyone. They have the best player in the world and the 2nd and 3rd most expensive players both close to peak. Pepe is a top experienced centre back and Ramos is capable of raising his game. Great full backs and midfielders who can keep the ball, surprised Modric was able to stay disciplined for that long though I must say. It's hard to see any real weakness other than complacency, a lot of Bayern's players are still young, Real have experience, reasonable youth and talent. If it wasn't for Barca's probably best of all time team in recent seasons we might be saying the same about Real.

eagle eye

I think Real have found another gear in the last month, the Bale and Ronaldo partnership has clicked and they are on a different level as a partnership than anybody else in the world right now. Kinda what people expected of Neymar and Messi.

The other huge factor going into this game was that Pep Guardiola lost a close friend and I'm sure that affected the preparations of Bayern for this game. I think a lot of people will dismiss this but I think its a pretty huge factor.

Turtwig

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's not just one cup tie, it's two. A limited Chelsea side reduced to 10 men for the majority of the second leg dug in and defeated Guardiolaball through discipline, organisation and will in 2012. Last night Guardiolaball was ripped to pieces by pace, power and precision.

It's been beaten in two completely different ways by two completely different teams in two cup ties.

That Chelsea team rode their luck to incredible degrees. Cech made some fantastic saves. Barca hit the post at least four times. Fabregas and Alexis missed sitters in both legs. Busquets did. The list goes on. I don't know why people think that Chelsea team did a good job because really they didn't. Barca were profligate in their finishing. Compare that to Inter in 2010 this year or Madrid against Bayern this year. There were little to no chances conceded.

Chelsea may have won, but in sport, you often win when you don't really deserve it. That was one of those times. Chelsea rode their luck and won. They did play the right game plan but they executed it rather rubbishly and weren't punished for it. To compare them to the light of the performances of Madrid, or Hiddink's Chelsea, or Inter is not right.

MisterAnarchy

Turtwig wrote: »

Compare that to Inter in 2010 this year or Madrid against Bayern this year. There were little to no chances conceded.

Chelsea may have won, but in sport, you often win when you don't really deserve it. That was one of those times. Chelsea rode their luck and won. They did play the right game plan but they executed it rather rubbishly and weren't punished for it. To compare them to the light of the performances of Madrid, or Hiddink's Chelsea, or Inter is not right.

I agree with most of what you are saying but Inter were very fortunate to defeat Barcelona too .

The first leg was a complete screw job by the referee.
Two of Inter's goals shouldnt have counted ,one came as a result of a break away after a blatant foul on Messi and another goal was miles offside.
Alves was brought down in the box too ,it was a clear penalty.

Add to that the fact that the Barcelona team had to take a 14 hour coach trip to Milan due to the volcanic ash .

In the second leg at the Nou Camp ,Barcelona could have had 2 more penalties .

Inter rode their luck big time .

Winston Payne

It's the first major setback that he's experienced in his career that's entirely on him. The semi-final defeat against Inter is coloured a little bit by the disruption to Barcelona ahead of the first leg which I think did affect them, particularly as the game went on, and even then it was a narrow [though merited in my opinion] defeat. Against Chelsea in 2012 I wouldn't have any major issue with his tactics. Barcelona were very wasteful of the chances that they made...because of the tactics employed, with them enjoying so much forward pressure. Tactics are the team you choose and the approach you employ which you hope will give you the best chance of winning the match. Difficult to argue that Guardiola didn't choose the best option. They were a Messi penalty away from regaining the lead and changing the complection of the tie, especially as Chelsea were already down to ten men by dint of his tactics anyway, Sanchez unnerving Terry to the extent that he did when coming through the middle.

This time though, he cops full blame. His changes and tactics directly lead to last night's defeat, and they invited the manner of it as well. A weakness at set pieces was apparent which doesn't reflect well on him whatsoever (something as basic as telling the zonal line to step up three or four steps at an outswinging corner escaped him, for instance, and there were too many men back on the six-yard line anyway), his personnel choices in midfield were wrong and Bayern failed utterly to penetrate. He has to learn from this. If that game doesn't ram home the importance of defending set pieces correctly, you'd think nothing will. Lahm can't be put in midfield against a team that's as good at counterattacking as Real, he's overrun in there. Martinez should have started. Schweinsteiger had no impact as the most advanced midfielder, and it's not a role that suits him. Kroos should have been there but Pep of course preferred the technical control that he brings with his passing. Never mind that defensively he can't be trusted deeper, he's been put in as part of a double pivot earlier in his career and that lack of defensive mindfulness has been exploited by worse teams than this current Real Madrid side.

Lewandowski is coming next year, and that should be a harbringer of change. Lewandowski is a mobile centre forward, capable of playing fluidly and linking up with midfield runners. He has to be given the platform to do that however. He can bring more incision than Mandzukic while also being able to lead a pressing game (something that Mandzukic has fallen off a bit in this spring actually, which raises questions in itself), more craft and guile but it all needs to come inside a team infrastructure that services him and that aspect of play. Heynckes showed last year that 4-2-3-1 gives you control and adaptability. It lets you dominate possession and territory, as they did in the final against Dortmund, and it lets you counter, as they did against Barcelona. When you're dominating, as Guardiola will surely want to do, it's so much more stable defensively too. Bayern weren't as open to breaks last year, not near to the degree they were last night. Bayern's squad is made for the system, and Guardiola should be looking to it, to master it, to bring the best out of the team.

The nature of the 4-1-4-1 that they were playing, specifically the composition of the midfield, was exposed last night, and that ridiculous 2-4-3-1 that they were playing against United and in Madrid during the first leg aren't the answer. Schweinsteiger shouldn't be deployed as an advanced midfielder. He should have a measure of freedom to break into the box, but that's an if-and-when situation. He doesn't move the ball on quickly enough at the sharp end to be a forward playmaker, and he doesn't vary his position along the pitch enough to pull the defence out of shape. No more Lahm in midfield, period. Hasn't got the physicality required to play a deeper position, not as good a tempo-setter as Schweinsteiger. Martinez is pretty important to the balance of the side, and is nearly a must in games against teams that are good on the break. He can still have his fiddlings with a false centre forward in the system too, with a Götze-Mülller axis at the top of system.

There can't be a repeat of last night. Guardiola has to ask fundamental questions of himself, such as is the team adaptable to the extremes of tiki-taka that he's demanding, of his command of detail at setpieces, and the control that's exerted in midfield, or rather the nature of it. It's much too vulnerable to breaks. Tweaking is necessary. It has to start now if he wants to avoid failures as glaring as this one again. I do think he's a very good manager, and that there's a chance this tie will modify some aspects of his approach. It has to, or he'll fail at Bayern.

Turtwig

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

I agree with most of what you are saying but Inter were very fortunate to defeat Barcelona too .

The first leg was a complete screw job by the referee.
Two of Inter's goals shouldnt have counted ,one came as a result of a break away after a blatant foul on Messi and another goal was miles offside.
Alves was brought down in the box too ,it was a clear penalty.

Add to that the fact that the Barcelona team had to take a 14 hour coach trip to Milan due to the volcanic ash .

In the second leg at the Nou Camp ,Barcelona could have had 2 more penalties .

Inter rode their luck big time .

You left out Bojan legimate goal that was disallowed. :P Had that stood Barca were through.
I agree with all Inter actually defended miles better than Roberto's Chelsea. That said I think Hiddink's side were the best. They should have won that tie and didn't. Sport is a funny aul thing.

Moneymaker

Ah come on now.

Do I think Pep should adapt and change things up a little bit? Yes.

Do I think he should hire a good defensive coach and get organised at set pieces? Yes.

Is he still one of the best managers in the modern game? Yes.

What he achieved at Barcelona(regardless of the quality of players) is something that can never be taken away.

CSF

So much knee-jerk here. People don't dismiss Pellegrini, Ancelotti or an entire style of football when Real Madrid or Man City lose.

Turtwig

Moneymaker wrote: »

Do I think he should hire a good defensive coach and get organised at set pieces? Yes.

Interestingly, iirc, Pep's Barcelona of 2009/2010 almost set the European record for least goals conceded from set plays. It was funny at the time because RTE pundits claimed they were weak at set plays.

Pro. F

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

It's not just one cup tie, it's two. A limited Chelsea side reduced to 10 men for the majority of the second leg dug in and defeated Guardiolaball through discipline, organisation and will in 2012. Last night Guardiolaball was ripped to pieces by pace, power and precision.

It's been beaten in two completely different ways by two completely different teams in two cup ties.

Losing two cup ties is still extremely flimsy evidence against a manager with the amount of success Pep has had.

He still has to prove that he can add to this Bayern team, but he needs to be given a few years. If he continues to fail against the big boys for a few years then we'll finally have some evidence that he's not all that.