ICTU Anti-Austerity March

the watchman

I can't make the march due to ill health.
If we can't get to the march what can we do?
I heard 10,000 people are expected so lets send an email supporting the march to
minister@finance.gov.ie

Perhaps we can can get 10 or 20,000 or perhaps more emails arriving at the ministers office as well. We can all do something however small....

Dicky Pride

I also can't make the march. My flux capacitor has malfunctioned.

deise blue

jonnyfingers wrote: »

The unions are a large part of what's wrong with this country. While I believe in the ideas of Unions and the protection of workers' rights deals like the Croke Park agreement really have taken things too far.

I will not be protesting under their banner specifically but I would like to take part in a general protest with the rest of the Irish people.

I will be going & will be marching under my Union's banner ( although it's easier for me as I'm based in Dublin ).

The reason why we have employment legislation protecting Worker's rights is mainly down to both the Irish trade union movement & the greater trade union movement.

It should be remembered that the Croke Park Agreement is a joint Agreement between the Government as employers ( both FG & Labour stated in their pre election campaigns that they would honour the CPA & still achieved a huge majority Government )& the Unions representing employees & is not simply something foisted on the Nation by the Unions - indeed I would point out that the Troika reports to date have been unanimous in stating that the CPA is meeting targets , such is the progress made that a CPA 2 seems to be on the cards !

Sorry for going off topic but I for one am more than happy to march under a Union banner.

Sully

Wait, this thread is two years old. Have we gone back in time or is there some protest? Whats the connection with Waterford?

deise blue

Just as well you pointed that out Sully !:)

There is an ICTU organised anti austerity march organised for 1p.m Saturday going to the GPO from Garden of Rememberance.

Mind you my comments about Trade Unions still stand

Sully

Split from the old thread into a new thread, as its different march.

the watchman

my fault.
Meant to post under existing thread relating to the Dublin March tomorrow 24th Nov 2012.

Haven't used boards much since layout changes..........

Smiley Burnett

are these the same unions that ensured a job was created for eamon gilmore's wife on 120,00 per annum (and the others on the top of the pile), when the vecs were merged/abolished in order to make savings???

i think i'll give this march a miss!

Am Chile

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

are these the same unions that ensured a job was created for eamon gilmore's wife on 120,00 per annum (and the others on the top of the pile), when the vecs were merged/abolished in order to make savings???

i think i'll give this march a miss!

Just to issue some clarification about tomorrows march-its not solely a union led march-sure in the last few weeks Siptu have come on board-but the march was originally organised by the dublin council of trade unions and the cahwt-I don,t think people should be put off attending the march tomrrow because trade unions are attending-

I won,t be marching alongside or under any union banner tomorrow, I suspect many others won,t be either-Id differentiate between marching alongside unions under their union banners on a solely union led march with being on a march with many other groups including some unions being some of those groups.

a
national demonstration is being planned by all anti-austerity groups for Dublin
on 24 November, in the run up to the budget.

http://corkindependent.com/stories/item/11965/2012-40/'I-feel-totally-betrayed'

deise blue

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

are these the same unions that ensured a job was created for eamon gilmore's wife on 120,00 per annum (and the others on the top of the pile), when the vecs were merged/abolished in order to make savings???

i think i'll give this march a miss!

Mrs. Gilmore was redeployed under the terms of the Croke Park Agreement - such Agreement was negotiated by the Government as employers & the Unions representing the employees - such Agreement is fully supported by all major political parties.

Mrs. Gilmore is being redeployed as a result of this Agreement & not because she is the Tanaiste's wife.

7upfree

deise blue wrote: »

Mrs. Gilmore was redeployed under the terms of the Croke Park Agreement - such Agreement was negotiated by the Government as employers & the Unions representing the employees - such Agreement is fully supported by all major political parties.

Mrs. Gilmore is being redeployed as a result of this Agreement & not because she is the Tanaiste's wife.

It's all a bit mad. Even though they claim the had no part in it, it just looks wrong.
As for the March: wouldn't it be easier fr the ICTU leaders to ring Happy Gilmore and tell him not to support the austerity measures in the first place?

But then they're really only PLAYING at being a Labour Party. And have been doing so for years.

deise blue

7upfree wrote: »

It's all a bit mad. Even thug they claim the had no part in it, it just looks wrong.
As for the March: wouldn't it be easier fr the ICTU leaders to ring Happy Gilmore and tell him not to support the austerity measures in the first place?

But then they're really only PLAYING at being a Labour Party. And have been doing so for years.

There is no question of impropriety by the Labour Party - Mrs. Gilmore was redeployed under the terms of the Croke Park Agreement , the same as any other PS employee who found themselves in the same position - no preferential treatment !

7upfree

deise blue wrote: »

There is no question of impropriety by the Labour Party - Mrs. Gilmore was redeployed under the terms of the Croke Park Agreement , the same as any other PS employee who found themselves in the same position - no preferential treatment !

Of course there wasn't........would we even imply that?;) However, imagine if this was the wife of a FF Minister and the Labour Party were in opposition? I'd imagine there would be a wee outcry of sorts.

No comment on the madness regarding the march? It's straight out of Father Ted really.

Sully

Its a messy one because people will always jump to the conclusions in regards to redeployment of a Ministers / TDs wife. But to be fair, she is entitled to her own private professional life regardless of who her husband is. What do you do, say "Sorry, your connected to Mr. Gilmore. Your fired."? Wouldn't be allowed happen in the courts, never mind those redeploying her!

As for austerity - austerity is something you cant avoid. It is needed and it appears to be working. But. Its not working for those on the edge already. The lower class and middle class feel the pinch considerably while those on top generally don't. I know there are consequences to taxing those with more money, but you cant expect those on the lower scale to continuously expect pain.

If this means a change to the Croke Park agreement - at the top including silly expenses - so be it.

Smiley Burnett

i couldnt care less who is married to whom....the point here is that highly-paid senior civil servants in management positions are being retained at the insistence of the Trade Unions and so-called left-wingers...all this is taking place whilst those in the public sector at the lower end of the scale are being hit by losing overtime etc....

The union grassroots should be demanding that the croke park agreement is torn up and the union leadership get back to focussing on those members that need strong representation...
The unions should be insisting that they no longer want to represent highly-paid managers in the public sector....(inclding school principals, senior management in local authorities, senior people in the HSE ETC)....

Where in the world would you find the people who are paid to MANAGE actually receive greater protection from a TRADE UNION that those they are actually paid to manage ???

and my final question is this---will these highly-paid and fully protected union members will be marching in Dublin today in solidarity with their "comrades"?? WILL THEY F*CK!

7upfree

Sully wrote: »

Its a messy one because people will always jump to the conclusions in regards to redeployment of a Ministers / TDs wife. But to be fair, she is entitled to her own private professional life regardless of who her husband is. What do you do, say "Sorry, your connected to Mr. Gilmore. Your fired."? Wouldn't be allowed happen in the courts, never mind those redeploying her!

As for austerity - austerity is something you cant avoid. It is needed and it appears to be working. But. Its not working for those on the edge already. The lower class and middle class feel the pinch considerably while those on top generally don't. I know there are consequences to taxing those with more money, but you cant expect those on the lower scale to continuously expect pain.

If this means a change to the Croke Park agreement - at the top including silly expenses - so be it.

Believe it or not, we might - shock - be in some slight agreement here.:mad::p

I personally don't like the look of what has gone on there. Neither do many others. But it's up to the Gimores to do the decent thing. As I said, if this happened during FF's tenure there would - rightfully - have been an outcry.

As for austerity, you should only implemented if you do so fairly. We have situations where:

* Failed business entities (banks) are not allowed succumb to economic realities and are propped up by the taxpayer. With scandalous wages being paid and a government insisting it cannot do anything.

* NAMA continuing to pay scandalous salaries to bosses of other failed bankrupt entities, while, say funding cannot be provided for a runway at the airport.

* An Oireachtas whose only purpose in life appears to be to protect its wages and conditions in order to perpetuate a gravy train.

* The same Oireachtas which promised to disband the Senate and which should -in reality - only consist of around 50 TDs.

* Public Sector workers and unions, who seem unable to comprehend that their employer is bankrupt and that the state can no longer pay their "entitlements".

* A government who celebrates our "return to the markets" so that we can continue to raise more money (€400m a week at the last count) in order to pay for all of the above.

deise blue

The Croke Park Agreement was originally tabled by FF & subsequently all political parties in their pre election promises vowed to honour the Agreement.

This Agreement provides the same guarantee to all levels in the PS - no further pay cuts & no compulsory redundancies.

It is disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that Unions should deny high earners representation as this in itself is a denial of such employee's democratic rights , such denial of rights would never withstand a legal challenge - not that any Union in their right mind would ever countenance such a move.

Every Troika report to date on the progress achieved by the CPA has been positive to the extent that it is looking likely that a CPA 2 is on the cards.

As Minister Howlin has said the CPA is hugely important in terms of reforming & downsizing the PS - the alternative as he is said is industrial armageddon.

jimmycrackcorm

deise blue wrote: »

There is no question of impropriety by the Labour Party - Mrs. Gilmore was redeployed under the terms of the Croke Park Agreement , the same as any other PS employee who found themselves in the same position - no preferential treatment !

The fact that she could kit he made redundant but instead a highly paid new job was "found" for her is precisely why I stood laughing at the March today while I was in the city centre.

Smiley Burnett

deise blue wrote: »

The Croke Park Agreement was originally tabled by FF & subsequently all political parties in their pre election promises vowed to honour the Agreement.

This Agreement provides the same guarantee to all levels in the PS - no further pay cuts & no compulsory redundancies.

It is disingenuous in the extreme to suggest that Unions should deny high earners representation as this in itself is a denial of such employee's democratic rights , such denial of rights would never withstand a legal challenge - not that any Union in their right mind would ever countenance such a move.

Every Troika report to date on the progress achieved by the CPA has been positive to the extent that it is looking likely that a CPA 2 is on the cards.

As Minister Howlin has said the CPA is hugely important in terms of reforming & downsizing the PS - the alternative as he is said is industrial armageddon.

so when those on the left/trade unions go on about cutting those "at the top", what they really mean is those "at the top" who dont pay a union subscription....some of these union members are earning in excess of 140,000 qnd you go on about democratic rights and representation????JESUS WEPT!!!! THE LUNATICS REALLY HAVE TAKEN OVER THE ASYLUM!!!

deise blue

Smiley Burnett wrote: »

so when those on the left/trade unions go on about cutting those "at the top", what they really mean is those "at the top" who dont pay a union subscription....some of these union members are earning in excess of 140,000 qnd you go on about democratic rights and representation????JESUS WEPT!!!! THE LUNATICS REALLY HAVE TAKEN OVER THE ASYLUM!!!

The fact that someone is earning excellent money does not deny them the right to Union membership - it's called democracy ! - why would they not choose Union representation to protect their terms & conditions .

I personally have no problem with people earning good money , do you ?

Perhaps you could detail examples of the " cutting at the top " that you feel the Unions are pursuing ?

deise blue

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The fact that she could kit he made redundant but instead a highly paid new job was "found" for her is precisely why I stood laughing at the March today while I was in the city centre.

Your one man protest is to be admired.

Can't say I noticed though , the thousands of us just kept marching !

7upfree

deise blue wrote: »

The Croke Park Agreement was originally tabled by FF & subsequently all political parties in their pre election promises vowed to honour the Agreement.

This Agreement provides the same guarantee to all levels in the PS - no further pay cuts & no compulsory redundancies.

DB - this is agreement is at the root of a lot of our problems Until the Public Sector is treated as a private business (i.e. cannot spend more that it takes in and must at least break even) then nothing will change.

If it were a private business pay cuts, pay freezes, and redundancies would ensue. The protectionist attitude of Government and Unions has to give way to reality at some point.

The Government go on about "returning to the markets" - in order to fund the ridiculous PS pay and entitlements. If we were not borrowing every week a default could be in order on the bank debt.

But how can you default on the very people you're going cap in hand to every week? Something has to be done about it all really.

deise blue

The PS has suffered pay cuts averaging 15%.

The Government is determined to make the budgeted savings by reform , voluntary redundancies & savings - in other words the Croke Park Agreement.

The Government is acutely aware that they cannot precipitate what they themselves refer to as " industrial mayhem " and as such the CPA is the only game in town , indeed it appears that a CPA 2 is on the way if they can lure the Unions back to the table by continuing to promise that core pay will remain unchanged & that any redundancies will continue to be of a voluntary nature.

I take comfort from the fact that there was a common perception that when the IMF came in it spelt the end of the CPA - indeed the reverse has proved to be the case - the Troika reports on the progress made under the auspices of the Agreement have been universally positive.

It should also be borne in mind that FG & Labour formed a Government with a massive majority even though both parties vowed to honour the CPA.

Bank of Ireland & AIB both paid the 3% being the first tranche of the National Wage Agreement towards 2016 - break even private companies , hardly !

7upfree

deise blue wrote: »

The PS has suffered pay cuts averaging 15%.

The Government is determined to make the budgeted savings by reform , voluntary redundancies & savings - in other words the Croke Park Agreement.

The Government is acutely aware that they cannot precipitate what they themselves refer to as " industrial mayhem " and as such the CPA is the only game in town , indeed it appears that a CPA 2 is on the way if they can lure the Unions back to the table by continuing to promise that core pay will remain unchanged & that any redundancies will continue to be of a voluntary nature.

I take comfort from the fact that there was a common perception that when the IMF came in it spelt the end of the CPA - indeed the reverse has proved to be the case - the Troika reports on the progress made under the auspices of the Agreement have been universally positive.

It should also be borne in mind that FG & Labour formed a Government with a massive majority even though both parties vowed to honour the CPA.

Bank of Ireland & AIB both paid the 3% being the first tranche of the National Wage Agreement towards 2016 - break even private companies , hardly !

The banks - private companies? I don't think so. They are bankrupt failed business entities which should no longer exist or be propped up by taxpayers.

Regarding the CPA it is pure semantics. The reality is that the PS Unions and workers live in a bubble which is (temporarily) isolated from the real world.

15% is a drop in the ocean. They still receive increments, are paid way above the norm. And are completely out of touch with reality.

It is inevitable that the house of cards will collapse. It is only a question of when. I thought the IMF had bigger balls. But it ain't over yet.

Industrial mayhem v economic mayhem. I'd risk the former.

deise blue

7upfree wrote: »

The banks - private companies? I don't think so. They are bankrupt failed business entities which should no longer exist or be propped up by taxpayers.

Regarding the CPA it is pure semantics. The reality is that the PS Unions and workers live in a bubble which is (temporarily) isolated from the real world.

15% is a drop in the ocean. They still receive increments, are paid way above the norm. And are completely out of touch with reality.

It is inevitable that the house of cards will collapse. It is only a question of when. I thought the IMF had bigger balls. But it ain't over yet.

Industrial mayhem v economic mayhem. I'd risk the former.

Let's not kid ourselves - our Banks are still private companies - AIB & BoI are still quoted on the ISEQ , both Banks paid the last pay increase under the last National Wage Agreement .

To further emphasise their continuing private sector status the Government have stated that they cannot legally interfere with the pensions of Mr. Goggin & Mr. Sheehy - pensions incidentally that dwarf anything paid to any PS employee .

All this & remember it was the Banks & developers in collusion with FF who were majorly to blame for the depth of recession.

Again you seem to dwell in the land of what " should be " - despite your assertion that the Banks should be allowed to fail & should not be propped up by taxpayers you must accept the reality that the Banks have been propped up & were not allowed to fail they continue to pay employees salaries that have suffered no deductions whatsoever allied to the fact that all redundancies to date & those envisaged have been & will continue to be voluntary.

Your argument regarding the CPA is similar - the actuality is that the CPA will see out it's lifetime & in all probability be replaced by CPA 2 , after all the Troika are more than happy with the progress to date.

Industrial Armageddon v adherence to the CPA - the Government has spoken !

7upfree

deise blue wrote: »

Let's not kid ourselves - our Banks are still private companies - AIB & BoI are still quoted on the ISEQ , both Banks paid the last pay increase under the last National Wage Agreement .

To further emphasise their continuing private sector status the Government have stated that they cannot legally interfere with the pensions of Mr. Goggin & Mr. Sheehy - pensions incidentally that dwarf anything paid to any PS employee .

All this & remember it was the Banks & developers in collusion with FF who were majorly to blame for the depth of recession.

Again you seem to dwell in the land of what " should be " - despite your assertion that the Banks should be allowed to fail & should not be propped up by taxpayers you must accept the reality that the Banks have been propped up & were not allowed to fail they continue to pay employees salaries that have suffered no deductions whatsoever allied to the fact that all redundancies to date & those envisaged have been & will continue to be voluntary.

Your argument regarding the CPA is similar - the actuality is that the CPA will see out it's lifetime & in all probability be replaced by CPA 2 , after all the Troika are more than happy with the progress to date.

Industrial Armageddon v adherence to the CPA - the Government has spoken !

They surely have. Unfortunately. But surely you cannot disagree that we cannot keep borrowing €400m a week to continue to "honour the CPA"? It is sheer madness.

I take your point about the banks. One possibly could have been kept active. The others certainly allowed fail. The basis of economics - indeed capitalism itself - is that you either succeed or fail on your own two feet.

That applies to both the failed banks and the Public Sector. Unless we wake up from our economic stupor the country is doomed.

The boon is gone. End of story. The county cannot afford to live beyond it means so that people in bankrupt entities - be they banks or the public sector - can receive their "entitlements".

That is a cold, harsh economic fact of life.

deise blue

The only reality is that the current CPA will run it's course & be replaced by a further public services agreement.

The Government will continue to borrow to ensure continuity of services , the fact that industrial peace is being delivered , PS numbers are being cut & reform is being delivered justifies the Government's rational.

Oh & they avoid disgruntling a huge electoral rump !

It should be pointed out that our borrowings also service social welfare payments.

I really think that our discussion is reaching an impasse - you believe the CPA will not survive & I think it will.

Time will prove one of us correct

Sully

Not trying to kill the conversation lads, but we have a separate Politics Forum for discussing national issues. This thread is fine to alert people from Waterford of the event or to raise local issues but its now on a national agenda so its more suited to Politics Forum. So if you want me to move it, let me know otherwise keep things local.

deise blue

Sully , no problem - I for one was running out of steam !

7upfree

Sully wrote: »

Not trying to kill the conversation lads, but we have a separate Politics Forum for discussing national issues. This thread is fine to alert people from Waterford of the event or to raise local issues but its now on a national agenda so its more suited to Politics Forum. So if you want me to move it, let me know otherwise keep things local.

OK. Last ponint I would make us that I do not THINK the CPA will survive. I sincerely hope it doesn't.

Am Chile

I know some people couldn,t of made to dublin yesterday for the national pre budget protest-I see from facebook there is to be local pre budget protest next saturday starting at the glen from 14.00-it will be Interesting to see how much coverage Wlr gives during the week about the pre budget march.

http://www.facebook.com/events/299448740164387/