Food Stamps

Spiritual

repsol wrote: »

Well I think I will get over that dissappointment .Myself and my wife are very happy in our well paid public sector jobs and we have no need to move overseas or seek further education opportunities.

Yet.

Any chance you are a politician, you have the charisma.

Spiritual

Stheno wrote: »

More expensive to keep someone in jail though

I didn't factor that in. My budget proposal will be laughed out of the Dáil.

Procrastastudy

Spiritual wrote: »

I didn't factor that in. My budget proposal will be laughed out of the Dáil.

Cost of keeping someone in jail really depends on how you look at it. It's either around €90,000 p/a if you're on the side of closing prisons or €1.26 a day if you are not.

coolhull

repsol wrote: »

Nobody is suggesting that persons on the dole get NO cash.They just shouldn't get it ALL in cash.A certain amount of cash would always be needed.In the course of my work I am regularly in the homes of social welfare dependents and they usually have the full SKY package and a TV the size of a football goal.They nearly all smoke and drink and run a car.I think public transport and the basic TV stations are good enough for everyone on the dole.If you want what I consider luxuries ,car ownership,smoking ,drinking,gambling etc you should have to work.

So your work often takes you into the homes of Social Welfare recipients? That must be tough for you. So you're presumably a Public Servant--- or a moneylender

mattjack

repsol wrote: »

Well I think I will get over that dissappointment .Myself and my wife are very happy in our well paid public sector jobs and we have no need to move overseas or seek further education opportunities.

You should transfer to the Dept. of Social Protection.Think of all the dole scroungers you know.You'd be a legend over night after catching them all.

Odysseus

Spiritual wrote: »

People always forget that there are a percentage of that 150,000 that cannot and never will be able to hold down employment.

I ask the critics should they be denied a basic standard of living?

What do you think we should do with the people?

I encounter one of the sub groups of people like this in my work. Some have never worked, some really struggle, some don't do too bad.

Some of them are ripping off what ever benefits they can, other not.

Some of them will never work until the start to get their pension, that is sad, well if they live that long.

Some move on to disability therefore they are no longer seen as unemployed.

At the end of the day, the State has to pick up the bill here in some way, how do we adress that without treating people like second class citizens? I guess that is the real question.

There is a group of people here that for various reason are actually not capable of holding down a real job, just to make the distinction from those who can work and maybe do whilst claiming benefits.

repsol

coolhull wrote: »

So your work often takes you into the homes of Social Welfare recipients? That must be tough for you. So you're presumably a Public Servant--- or a moneylender

I just said I work in the public sector.You should be a detective!

Cedrus

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Cost of keeping someone in jail really depends on how you look at it. It's either around €90,000 p/a if you're on the side of closing prisons or €1.26 a day if you are not.

Maths was never my strong point, but ??????????????????

€1.26 x 365 = 459.90
90,000 / 365 = €246.58

Spiritual

Odysseus wrote: »

What do you think we should do with the people?

I encounter one of the sub groups of people like this in my work. Some have never worked, some really struggle, some don't do too bad.

Some of them are ripping off what ever benefits they can, other not.

Some of them will never work until the start to get their pension, that is sad, well if they live that long.

Some move on to disability therefore they are no longer seen as unemployed.

At the end of the day, the State has to pick up the bill here in some way, how do we adress that without treating people like second class citizens? I guess that is the real question.

There is a group of people here that for various reason are actually not capable of holding down a real job, just to make the distinction from those who can work and maybe do whilst claiming benefits.

MOTD is on so I'll have to get back to you.

Procrastastudy

Cedrus wrote: »

Maths was never my strong point, but ??????????????????

€1.26 x 365 = 459.90
90,000 / 365 = €246.58

Nope you've that right - cost of keeping someone in prison is either €1.26 a day or €246.58 a day depending on what argument you chose to make.

zenno

repsol wrote: »

There are about 450,000 on the dole and I spoke about 300,000 being scroungers. That is a 2/3 to 1/3 split and means I think 150,000 recipients are genuine.How is that generalizing? You should READ what I said before getting all defensive.

What a bunch of garbage bull$hit. 300,000 unemployed scroungers you say, are you for real. Some people literally have their head up a camels arse.

kodoherty93

As everyone ever seen what you buy in some states with food stamps. I was watching a show in which the women was allowed a 2 litre bottle of frozen orange juice and a pot peanut butter. Only because they were american produced. But I think know you get like a credit card sized card that allows you buy whatever in a supermarket but alcohol up to a certain value.

I dont agree with the social welfare spend it on whatever you want. A trolley of shopping an area such as Glasnevin with few people on welfare is all fresh fruit/veg and meat and little drink.

Last night in tesco Finglas there nothing but frozen food and drink in trolleys. That isn't a healthy diet at all. Whereas the food stamp programme is based on the food pyramid

Mrs Garth Brooks

Food stamps is a stupid idea. Are we allowed to buy a bar of soap to wash ourselves? What about toilet paper? And what will women use that time of month if we only get food stamps. A slice of bread?

mattjack

kodoherty93 wrote: »

As everyone ever seen what you buy in some states with food stamps. I was watching a show in which the women was allowed a 2 litre bottle of frozen orange juice and a pot peanut butter. Only because they were american produced. But I think know you get like a credit card sized card that allows you buy whatever in a supermarket but alcohol up to a certain value.

I dont agree with the social welfare spend it on whatever you want. A trolley of shopping an area such as Glasnevin with few people on welfare is all fresh fruit/veg and meat and little drink.

Last night in tesco Finglas there nothing but frozen food and drink in trolleys. That isn't a healthy diet at all. Whereas the food stamp programme is based on the food pyramid

How do you know that all the people you saw shopping in Finglas last night with their frozen food and alcohol are all on welfare ?

Azure_sky

I have a better idea. Since money and food stamps have no inherent value and the issue at hand is not allowing job seekers to buy anything bar the bare necessities then how about we publicly brand them on the forehead like cattle. If they try to buy anything bar lard we can whip them in the public square and all feel that little bit superior about ourselves.

Procrastastudy

Sir Humphrey Appleby had it right almost 30 years ago in Yes, Prime Minister, simply cut off all support to people that refuse two job offers.

Something that is forgotten in all this is that there are jobs out there.

mikemac1

kodoherty93 wrote: »

A trolley of shopping an area such as Glasnevin with few people on welfare is all fresh fruit/veg and meat and little drink.

Last night in tesco Finglas there nothing but frozen food and drink in trolleys.

Sure there is a lot of "Glasnevin North" that's in Ballymun

DCU reckon they are in Glasnevin too :pac:

Who even knows where the borders of Finglas are

When you went on your shopping trip you don't know who you were watching

SCOOP 64

coolhull wrote: »

You mean luxuries like TV, Christmas presents for kids, that sort of thing?

Yes, if you've been laid off work, you shouldn't be entitled to anything other than basic foodstuff

Yes, surely you have to be punished some how!
not let away with it.

Azure_sky

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Sir Humphrey Appleby had it right almost 30 years ago in Yes, Prime Minister, simply cut off all support to people that refuse two job offers.

Something that is forgotten in all this is that there are jobs out there.

I actually would agree with this but...there are no jobs out there.

Here's a question I want to pose to you guys: It seems no one cared about people on the dole until the recession. Now everyone is up in airs with pitchforks. Surely it would have made sense to get pissed off when the genuine dole scroungers who, during the recession, were to lazy to work or study, rather than people who actually want to work but can't find any.

I can't help but feel that many people are looking for a scapegoat.

SCOOP 64

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Sir Humphrey Appleby had it right almost 30 years ago in Yes, Prime Minister, simply cut off all support to people that refuse two job offers.

Something that is forgotten in all this is that there are jobs out there.

Well not jobs, i think called internships.

Procrastastudy

Azure_sky wrote: »

I actually would agree with this but...there are no jobs out there.

Here's a question I want to pose to you guys: It seems no one cared about people on the dole until the recession. Now everyone is up in airs with pitchforks. Surely it would have made sense to get pissed off when the genuine dole scroungers who, during the recession, were to lazy to work or study, rather than people who actually want to work but can't find any.

I can't help but feel that many people are looking for a scapegoat.

I cant speak for outside of Dublin - but in Dublin there are jobs. Bars and Shops, Cleaning and so forth.

steddyeddy

Azure_sky wrote: »

I actually would agree with this but...there are no jobs out there.

Here's a question I want to pose to you guys: It seems no one cared about people on the dole until the recession. Now everyone is up in airs with pitchforks. Surely it would have made sense to get pissed off when the genuine dole scroungers who, during the recession, were to lazy to work or study, rather than people who actually want to work but can't find any.

I can't help but feel that many people are looking for a scapegoat.

Bingo. Good work Batman. How easily led the ignorant are.

SCOOP 64

Procrastastudy wrote: »

I cant speak for outside of Dublin - but in Dublin there are jobs. Bars and Shops, Cleaning and so forth.

no these are interships now, but should be full time jobs!

Procrastastudy

nig1 wrote: »

no these are interships now, but should be full time jobs!

Yeah yeah - another excuse. There are jobs out there. I agree not enough to go round but there are people who aren't willing to do menial work. After 24 months on the dole people should be very carefully looked at. I'm sorry of that upsets you but it's my opinion.

There are countless opportunities out there from education to employment. Sitting at home watching Jeremy Kyle it justification enough for some intervention.

No one is saying get a full time job - how about doing 20 hours a week and getting half dole - seems a good solution imho.

Azure_sky

Procrastastudy wrote: »

I cant speak for outside of Dublin - but in Dublin there are jobs. Bars and Shops, Cleaning and so forth.

The only job I could find was as a chimney sweep.

SCOOP 64

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Yeah yeah - another excuse. There are jobs out there. I agree not enough to go round but there are people who aren't willing to do menial work. After 24 months on the dole people should be very carefully looked at. I'm sorry of that upsets you but it's my opinion.

There are countless opportunities out there from education to employment. Sitting at home watching Jeremy Kyle it justification enough for some intervention.

No one is saying get a full time job - how about doing 20 hours a week and getting half dole - seems a good solution imho.

i agreed ,some people will never want to work, even in the good times,
i work for 9 years with my last company, it went into liqudation, never signed on in my life until now, but i will be tar with the same brush,when i tell some one im signing on, its just the way people with jobs in these times have this attitude.

Procrastastudy

nig1 wrote: »

i agreed ,some people will never want to work, even in the good times,
i work for 9 years with my last company, it went into liqudation, never signed on in my life until now, but i will be tar with the same brush,when i tell some one im signing on, its just the way people with jobs in these times have this attitude.

Not by me - and not by the system in all honesty. You get your year and frankly take it - reflect, relax but get going again. I'm on the BTEA and back in education. I have no issues with that. As I say its people for more than 24 months who have been sitting there playing with themselves I take issue with.

There isn't enough jobs out there - I'm not disputing that - there is enough to be doing without letting people sit around though.

Here's another idea - Drug testing - anyone on drugs gets their support in another way (be it a card or a delivery). Frankly I'd include nicotine and alcohol in there but I do acknowledge that might be going a little far.

Odysseus

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Not by me - and not by the system in all honesty. You get your year and frankly take it - reflect, relax but get going again. I'm on the BTEA and back in education. I have no issues with that. As I say its people for more than 24 months who have been sitting there playing with themselves I take issue with.

There isn't enough jobs out there - I'm not disputing that - there is enough to be doing without letting people sit around though.

Here's another idea - Drug testing - anyone on drugs gets their support in another way (be it a card or a delivery). Frankly I'd include nicotine and alcohol in there but I do acknowledge that might be going a little far.

Any one who works in drug treatment knows punitive measures do not work. On what grouds should we test people?

Apart from the fact that testing is so expensive we could not afford to test people on welfare, even in our clinics we have reduced testing by 75% due to the cost. If we can't afford to test those on programmes we can't test all those on welfare. A very ill thought idea this.

steddyeddy

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Not by me - and not by the system in all honesty. You get your year and frankly take it - reflect, relax but get going again. I'm on the BTEA and back in education. I have no issues with that. As I say its people for more than 24 months who have been sitting there playing with themselves I take issue with.

There isn't enough jobs out there - I'm not disputing that - there is enough to be doing without letting people sit around though.

Here's another idea - Drug testing - anyone on drugs gets their support in another way (be it a card or a delivery). Frankly I'd include nicotine and alcohol in there but I do acknowledge that might be going a little far.

I take it you would also drug test students who are a massive cost to the taxpayer? Being in ucd theres a lot of wasters we shouldnt be funding who blow taxpayers money on drink and drugs.

kowloon

repsol wrote: »

Well I think I will get over that dissappointment .Myself and my wife are very happy in our well paid public sector jobs and we have no need to move overseas or seek further education opportunities.

The troll was going so well and then you fecked it up. I would have given you a 7/10 based on your earlier work but you need to massage in some more subtlety and avoid sudden ramps in troll level like the above if you want to compete with the best.

Procrastastudy

Odysseus wrote: »

Any one who works in drug treatment knows punitive measures do not work. On what grouds should we test people?

Apart from the fact that testing is so expensive we could not afford to test people on welfare, even in our clinics we have reduced testing by 75% due to the cost. If we can't afford to test those on programmes we can't test all those on welfare. A very ill thought idea this.

You fail to take into account the knock on cost savings or indeed the policy would be there to try and support people. I'm also not suggesting that people shouldn't then get support - I'm saying that person should start having their food etc delivered to them as they've proved they can't, for what ever reason, handle it themselves. I'm also not suggesting testing everyone on welfare - scale the test to be affordable if 24 months is too expensive target 5, 10 or 20 years. Every time a freedom is threatened people rebel against it - not a bad thing. What I'm saying is it's a proportionate response.

steddyeddy wrote: »

I take it you would also drug test students who are a massive cost to the taxpayer? Being in ucd theres a lot of wasters we shouldnt be funding who blow taxpayers money on drink and drugs.

Nope they are at-least out of the house. I'd be very tempted to kick them out for non-attendance though. That's down tot he institution, unfortunately.

Odysseus

Procrastastudy wrote: »

You fail to take into account the knock on cost savings or indeed the policy would be there to try and support people. I'm also not suggesting that people shouldn't then get support - I'm saying that person should start having their food etc delivered to them as they've proved they can't, for what ever reason, handle it themselves. I'm also not suggesting testing everyone on welfare - scale the test to be affordable if 24 months is too expensive target 5, 10 or 20 years. Every time a freedom is threatened people rebel against it - not a bad thing. What I'm saying is it's a proportionate response.



Nope they are at-least out of the house. I'd be very tempted to kick them out for non-attendance though. That's down tot he institution, unfortunately.

I think you fail to see that this idea is not workable, what about the increase in criminality if those who spend some/all their welfare on drugs are not going to just stop. How will you decide who gets screened, who will supervise it?

More importantly how can we force people to undergo a medical test without restricting their human rights.

This is all without the cost of setting up a team to deliver the food.

Procrastastudy

Odysseus wrote: »

I think you fail to see that this idea is not workable, what about the increase in criminality if those who spend some/all their welfare on drugs are not going to just stop. How will you decide who gets screened, who will supervise it?

I dont think an extra €188 a week has much effect on the criminal activity already engaged in.

Odysseus wrote: »

More importantly how can we force people to undergo a medical test without restricting their human rights.

Easily passed in a referumdum I would imagine - but would certainly give the state their say.

Odysseus wrote: »

This is all without the cost of setting up a team to deliver the food.

More jobs is never a bad thing.

Lenin Skynard

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Easily passed in a referumdum I would imagine - but would certainly give the state their say.

I think you've a fairly skewed view of the Irish public if you think such a "referumdum" to take away human rights would pass easily. The EU wouldn't put up with it either.

Procrastastudy

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

I think you've a fairly skewed view of the Irish public if you think such a "referumdum" to take away human rights would pass easily. The EU wouldn't put up with it either.

You seem to think we have a good human rights record as it is? Could easily be made optional - opt out of 'food stamps' by providing a sample - avoids to the need for a referendum.

I don't see how ensuring someone is supported and fed through addictions is infringing upon their human rights - surely by that token the illegality of drugs is an infringement on the right of self determination.

steddyeddy

Procrastastudy wrote: »

You seem to think we have a good human rights record as it is? Could easily be made optional - opt out of 'food stamps' by providing a sample - avoids to the need for a referendum.

I don't see how ensuring someone is supported and fed through addictions is infringing upon their human rights - surely by that token the illegality of drugs is an infringement on the right of self determination.

What is your obsession with testing people for drugs who may have lost their job? Can you not foresee the effect that might have on people's mental health?

Procrastastudy

steddyeddy wrote: »

What is your obsession with testing people for drugs who may have lost their job? Can you not foresee the effect that might have on people's mental health?

How is someone who is on the live register after 5 years or even 24 months having taken none of the opportunities presented worthy of sympathy? They give people who have genuinely 'lost there job' a bad name.

There is a reason what I propose would never happen of course - it would be too expensive in the short term. Doing the right thing and addressing social exclusion always is.

Odysseus

Procrastastudy wrote: »

I dont think an extra €188 a week has much effect on the criminal activity already engaged in.



Easily passed in a referumdum I would imagine - but would certainly give the state their say.



More jobs is never a bad thing.

It would cost more than 188 to test a person tha is without enforcing this food shopping thing. BTW you never heard of dole day junkies?

When people see how much it would cost

We are being told we cannot afford public services and you want to start up a scheme which would cost more than it saves in welfare.

As I said already we can't afford to test people regularly in methadone programmes, never mind those on welfare.

mattjack

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Here's another idea - Drug testing - anyone on drugs gets their support in another way (be it a card or a delivery). Frankly I'd include nicotine and alcohol in there but I do acknowledge that might be going a little far.

If I fail my drug test will you bring my food to me in the hostel I sleep in ? don't mind the lads with me, they're ok when you get to know them.

I give some of my payment to pay for my hostel , do you think they would mind if I gave them a few tins of beans instead of money when I fail my drug test ?

Sometimes I sleep rough, will you be able to find me ? Sometimes I use benzo's , am I allowed use them ?

Me mates on disability , will his payment be affected ?

Spiritual

I have worked for 25 years, experiencing life without a job for the first time and now people want to drug test me?
I knew it would be tough when my job ended but does it get that tough that I may resort to drugs?

Fúck me, emigration is looking better everyday.

Lenin Skynard

While we're throwing all the progress that humanity has made in the last 5000 years out the window, I may as well throw out the idea that we just build giant gas chambers to load people into as soon as they get their p45.

Spiritual

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

While we're throwing all the progress that humanity has made in the last 5000 years out the window, I may as well throw out the idea that we just build giant gas chambers to load people into as soon as they get their p45.

At least let us enjoy a tax rebate and our stamps before gassing us. See it as a transition year.

Procrastastudy

Sorry on the phone now so can't multi-quote.

Savings aren't going to be made by looking at welfare. It's actually not that big a drain when compared to tax evation and the ridiculous spend on redundant levels of management in the public sector. Reduce the maximum salary to €100000 see how many jump ship for better jobs in the private sector but I digress.

Savings would be made long term and even if they were not I think it's a worthwhile exercise. As for accommodation I'm suggesting that basic needs should be met by the state - accommodation, food and education - while avoiding the money being spent to fuel addictions.

Procrastastudy

Lenin Skynard wrote: »

While we're throwing all the progress that humanity has made in the last 5000 years out the window, I may as well throw out the idea that we just build giant gas chambers to load people into as soon as they get their p45.

LOL I knew the level of discussion going on wouldn't last long. AH level discourse restored.

Spiritual

Procrastastudy wrote: »

LOL I knew the level of discussion going on wouldn't last long. AH level discourse restored.

You had that level planted a lot earlier than Lenin's post.

Procrastastudy

Spiritual wrote: »

You had that level planted a lot earlier than Lenin's post.

Yeah yeah lets carry on as per usual its clearly working wonders. There's a difference between putting forward an opinion and just exaggerating to the point of non-sense. You also, personally, seemed to ignore a substantial part of what I was saying. Perhaps because after twenty-five years you're too good to go and do a cleaning job or go back to education?

Spiritual

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Yeah yeah lets carry on as per usual its clearly working wonders. There's a difference between putting forward an opinion and just exaggerating to the point of non-sense. You also, personally, seemed to ignore a substantial part of what I was saying. Perhaps because after twenty-five years you're too good to go and do a cleaning job or go back to education?

I am open to all offers however I am hoping to re-enter the profession that I have come out of. Hope that is acceptable to you?

What is it you do your good self?

Procrastastudy

Spiritual wrote: »

I am open to all offers however I am hoping to re-enter the profession that I have come out of. Hope that is acceptable to you?

What is it you do your good self?

Now I know you're only reading half of what's written.

Spiritual

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Now I know you're only reading half of what's written.

Sorry what did I miss?

Procrastastudy

Spiritual wrote: »

Sorry what did I miss?

I made my situation quite clear fairly early on. To be fair I didn't read the entire thread before posting either. That said with one or two exceptions people have only read half of each post and gone off half cocked that I'm suggesting this is a scheme for everyone from day one - completely contrary to what I've said.

Rather than continue this and make it personal I think I'll bow out at this stage. I kinda forgot this was an AH thread tbh and took it all rather to seriously. Good luck and I hope you find what you're looking for.