Sunday Independent asks: Is Fianna Fail The Future?

nesf

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

You are lying raymon. He did not say that FF were not to blame - he admitted that the party made serious judgement errors in regards policy which greatly contributed to the financial difficulties. However he also said that there were other factors at play other than FF being in government, which any balanced analyst would admit.

Please don't accuse someone of lying merely you think they're wrong about something, they may just be mistaken.

nesf

raymon wrote: »

Saying that I am lying is bizarre behaviour for a moderator.

The first ten minutes of this interview is mostly denials of FF causing
the collapse of our economy.

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/55941/1/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne

Please retract your " you are lying " accusation.

Sierra Oscar is not a moderator of Politics.

Shea O'Meara

Realistically, yes. FFail are the future of Ireland and will always be strongly represented in the wings if not in power.
The Independent is an FFail flag waver so one should take any article, (including those regarding what 'Z' list Irish celeb was in what tosser bar over the weekend) with a grain of salt.
As long as FFail exist the quality of life in Ireland will never improve. Sure we'll have another building boom but that will be followed by another bust. As long as there are people out for personal profit and everybody else can get f***ed, you'll always have an FFail.
As long as people buy into the whole tradition of voting for a party because their Da and his Da before him did, you'll always have FFail.
As long as FFail politicians and party members keep the right palms greased, you'll always have FFail.
In my opinion FFail are a cancer on the Irish people.

Shea O'Meara

hallelujajordan wrote: »

From this years Ard-Fheis party leaders speech

"It’s not enough to point to the worst world recession in 80 years and the Eurozone crisis.
Nor to point to the fact that other parties were demanding policies which would have made things worse – that’s for them to answer for.
We were in government and we should have acted differently.
We made mistakes.
We got things wrong.
And we are sorry for that.
No equivocation.
No half-apology.
Just the plain, unvarnished truth.."

FF have no difficulty accepting responsibility for the role they played in creating the crisis.

Yeah, but why would anyone vote for them? I don't get it. Is it not obvious, especially regarding the above that they are either incompetent or corrupt to the core? Why the blind loyalty against all logic?

Brussels Sprout

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

Why the blind loyalty against all logic?

You may as well ask the people of Cavan that.

jmayo

flash1080 wrote: »

I will be voting for FF in the next general election.

In case people have missed it, the recession is not just an Irish phenomenon.

And here folks we have a biggest reason for anyone able to get out to get to fook out of this country.
As long as die hard fianna failers have a hole in their ar** they will continue to vote for the party.

To use a line used about another group that brought misery and destruction to this state, "They haven't gone away".

A lot of Irish people laugh at Italian or US electorate when we should just look at our own electoral history.

As long as we put up with leeching gobsh**e politicans, including every party and independents, we will be destined to failure.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

From this years Ard-Fheis party leaders speech

"It’s not enough to point to the worst world recession in 80 years and the Eurozone crisis.

Ah yes drop the old recession and Eurozone crisis in.
Maybe mention Wall St, subprime and Lehmans for added measure. :rolleyes:
But lets not mention the failure to regulate the biggest property bubble in history and complete non regulation of our banking sector which resulted in all our indigenous banking sector having to be bailed out by the taxpayer.

Get that ALL OF OUR INDIGENOUS BANKS.
Oh and one of our largest insurance companies to boot.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Nor to point to the fact that other parties were demanding policies which would have made things worse – that’s for them to answer for.

Ah but shure they are all the same. :rolleyes:
Yet to see someone use this argument in court.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

We were in government and we should have acted differently.
We made mistakes.
We got things wrong.
And we are sorry for that.
No equivocation.

Well then why not just fook off.
Oh wait some of you did, but of course you didn't bother admitting culpability and handing back your excessive tax free lump sum payments and collosal pensions.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

No half-apology.
Just the plain, unvarnished truth..[/B]"

The truth and fianna fail are oxymorons.
Most fianna failers wouldn't recognise the truth and if they do they try their best to either ignore it or twist it.
It is true of most politicans, but fianna fail took it to a new level.

All one has to do is trawl through the excuses used for the behaviour of the former leader who appeared to find wads of cash handed to him at parties, houses given to him with more wads of cash to renovate it to his taste and never have the need of a bank account even though he was the finance minister of the state.

The amount of sh**e, unethical behaviour and downright corruption that fianna fail have foisted upon this state is collosal and after many attempts they finally succeeded in bankrupting us and sending us into long term penury.

Hell all one has to do is look at wee willie on the front bench as a reminder as to how little has changed.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

FF have no difficulty accepting responsibility for the role they played in creating the crisis.

The role ?
Would you mind explaining what exactly the role was ?

Oh don't bother.
I have heard all the usual shi** from you in the past.
I remember how long it took for you to stop pedalling sh**e about bertie and your fallen hero lenihan.

As for the sunday independent.
I can't understand why anyone buys that rag.
If you want it to change then hurt them in their pockets.

Sierra Oscar

raymon wrote: »

Saying that I am lying is bizarre behaviour for a moderator.

The first ten minutes of this interview is mostly denials of FF causing
the collapse of our economy.

http://www.tv3.ie/3player/show/41/55941/1/Tonight-with-Vincent-Browne

Please retract your " you are lying " accusation.

No I wont, because you deliberately tried to misportray what Martin actually said. Your link even illustrates that. Martin did not attempt to portray an image that the crisis was all due to international factors - far from it. Martin has quite clearly highlighted since the election, on a number of occasions, that FF did make policy mistakes and the task for the party was to learn from them.

I also note that your tone has changed as you are now saying 'mostly' rather than trying to claim that Martin downright rejected responsibility. You have been caught out again.

Also, I am not a moderator of this specific forum which you know more than well.

Shea O'Meara

The FFail book of ol' chestnuts I've heard in the last decade;

'We've cleaned house' (For use after every FFail government are shown to be incompetent and/or corrupt)

'Sure the others would've been worse' (The Rose tinted 'what if' scenario)

'If you vote Labour or Sinn Fein you'll have the IMF at our door' DISCONTINUED

It was Lehmans.

It was the financial crisis.

Okay, it was us, but we did better than the others would have. (Rose tinted 'what if' defence II)

Actually, it was the financial crisis, and maybe Lehmans a lil' bit.

raymon

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

I also note that your tone has changed as you are now saying 'mostly' rather than trying to claim that Martin downright rejected responsibility. You have been caught out again.

My tone hasn't changed at all. You are misrepresenting my words again.... I am saying most of the 10 mins is made up of denial after denial.

Martin is downright rejecting responsibility .

Disgraceful stuff .

FF should be down at the Simon community , or svp trying to repair some of the damage they caused to our people.

Mr.Micro

raymon wrote: »

My tone hasn't changed at all. You are misrepresenting my words again.... I am saying most of the 10 mins is made up of denial after denial.

Martin is downright rejecting responsibility .

Disgraceful stuff .

FF should be down at the Simon community , or svp trying to repair some of the damage they caused to our people.

Not to mention all those who have had to emigrate.

southsiderosie

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

No I wont, because you deliberately tried to misportray what Martin actually said. Your link even illustrates that. Martin did not attempt to portray an image that the crisis was all due to international factors - far from it. Martin has quite clearly highlighted since the election, on a number of occasions, that FF did make policy mistakes and the task for the party was to learn from them.

I also note that your tone has changed as you are now saying 'mostly' rather than trying to claim that Martin downright rejected responsibility. You have been caught out again.

Also, I am not a moderator of this specific forum which you know more than well.

raymon wrote: »

My tone hasn't changed at all. You are misrepresenting my words again.... I am saying most of the 10 mins is made up of denial after denial.

Martin is downright rejecting responsibility .

Disgraceful stuff .

FF should be down at the Simon community , or svp trying to repair some of the damage they caused to our people.

MOD NOTE:

This has already been addressed by another moderator, so stop squabbling about it if you want to continue posting on this thread.

jimmycrackcorm

I think people will vote for Fianna Fail again because in truth they know that ultimately they themselves are responsible. During the boom years the electorate returned FF because they didn't want the party to stop. Nobody was prepared to vote for anybody who would suggest "hang on - we cannot give ps pay increases or sw increases because we won't be able to afford it when the boom ends"

raymon

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think people will vote for Fianna Fail again because in truth they know that ultimately they themselves are responsible. During the boom years the electorate returned FF because they didn't want the party to stop. Nobody was prepared to vote for anybody who would suggest "hang on - we cannot give ps pay increases or sw increases because we won't be able to afford it when the boom ends"

I don't get your logic...... people voted for a party whose top brass were dishonest , corrupt , incompetent and arrogant , therefore they will vote for the same party again.

I'm confused with this logic.

Shea O'Meara

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think people will vote for Fianna Fail again because in truth they know that ultimately they themselves are responsible. During the boom years the electorate returned FF because they didn't want the party to stop. Nobody was prepared to vote for anybody who would suggest "hang on - we cannot give ps pay increases or sw increases because we won't be able to afford it when the boom ends"

That's pure FFail propaganda and not true. FFail were spouting that before they staggered out of office, when it didn't look like anyone was buying the whole Lehman's excuse.
If the economy is doing well, of course the electorate are happy. If the government and financial institutions are telling the public everything is great and solid, of course they won't listen to a minority of neh sayers. And don't forget, FFail told us 'The boom would get boomier'.
So ditch all this FFail bull**** about the public not wanting the party to stop and not listening to warnings, which didn't come from the goverment in any shape or form.
It's disingenuous and basically bollocks.

jmayo

raymon wrote: »

I don't get your logic...... people voted for a party whose top brass were dishonest , corrupt , incompetent and arrogant , therefore they will vote for the same party again.

I'm confused with this logic.

I bet you have a lot in common with most Germans who are probably wondering how the hell the likes of us, the Italians, the Greeks keep voting a crowd of shysters into power.

jmayo

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

That's pure FFail propaganda and not true. FFail were spouting that before they staggered out of office, when it didn't look like anyone was buying the whole Lehman's excuse.
If the economy is doing well, of course the electorate are happy. If the government and financial institutions are telling the public everything is great and solid, of course they won't listen to a minority of neh sayers. And don't forget, FFail told us 'The boom would get boomier'.
So ditch all this FFail bull**** about the public not wanting the party to stop and not listening to warnings, which didn't come from the goverment in any shape or form.
It's disingenuous and basically bollocks.

There is truth in both arguments.
There were posters on here pre election 2007, funny how most of them have slunk off, telling us how wonderful bertie was and how the ff party had created the boom and brought prosperity.

ff will use any get out clause to lessen their blame for the mess.
Harry S Truman said "the buck stops here",.
But ff are more deceitful bigger sleveens and thus would blame anyone and everyone for their massive failings.

In most sane countries, ff trying to get back into power would be akin to someone trying to resurrect the pop career of gary glitter in the UK.

Except we are not a sane country as can be shown by the continous back slapping and ars* licking of a family who have left every citizen in this country paying extra on their insurance for the next couple of decades, all the while they refuse to repay over 500 million of debt they now owe to the state, which they have previously acknowledged as legitimate borrowings.

Whilst the ff led governments were incompetent, wasteful, arrogant, corrupt (has been proven they had corrupt party members) and unethical, so too can one argue that a fair chunk of Irish voters (some of which who supported ff) were arrogant, greedy and wasteful.

Shea O'Meara

jmayo wrote: »

There is truth in both arguments.
There were posters on here pre election 2007, funny how most of them have slunk off, telling us how wonderful bertie was and how the ff party had created the boom and brought prosperity.

ff will use any get out clause to lessen their blame for the mess.
Harry S Truman said "the buck stops here",.
But ff are more deceitful bigger sleveens and thus would blame anyone and everyone for their massive failings.

In most sane countries, ff trying to get back into power would be akin to someone trying to resurrect the pop career of gary glitter in the UK.

Except we are not a sane country as can be shown by the continous back slapping and ars* licking of a family who have left every citizen in this country paying extra on their insurance for the next couple of decades, all the while they refuse to repay over 500 million of debt they now owe to the state, which they have previously acknowledged as legitimate borrowings.

Whilst the ff led governments were incompetent, wasteful, arrogant, corrupt (has been proven they had corrupt party members) and unethical, so too can one argue that a fair chunk of Irish voters (some of which who supported ff) were arrogant, greedy and wasteful.

I would disagree with the 'fair chunk' part. The key players who were not directly involved with the FFail party were high rollers, which you can't lay blame in equal measure to someone who bought a car or house they can't afford the mortgage on. All of those foreclosed or in the process of being forclosed did not bankrupt the country, if anything they were fooled into having eyes bigger than their belly, which is no excuse, but they are small fry.

Mr.Micro

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think people will vote for Fianna Fail again because in truth they know that ultimately they themselves are responsible. During the boom years the electorate returned FF because they didn't want the party to stop. Nobody was prepared to vote for anybody who would suggest "hang on - we cannot give ps pay increases or sw increases because we won't be able to afford it when the boom ends"

Its blame the voters now is it? FF had a duty of care to the electorate and the nation as a whole. You do not buy a dog and then bark yourself. The voters voted FF believing or wanting to believe that the boom was going to continue.

It was the ethical duty of FF to manage the trust of the people, granted to It as the Governing Party. Instead, it deceived and deceived, not even coming clean when the IMF was in town. FF even tinkered with stamp duty when the boom was coming to an end, in an effort to further stoke the housing debacle. If people are prepared to vote for FF then its up to them, its only sad that we go on this sad cycle of coalition Governments and then FF, with no real alternative to the tried (tired) and failed FF party.

tipptom

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

That's pure FFail propaganda and not true. FFail were spouting that before they staggered out of office, when it didn't look like anyone was buying the whole Lehman's excuse.
If the economy is doing well, of course the electorate are happy. If the government and financial institutions are telling the public everything is great and solid, of course they won't listen to a minority of neh sayers. And don't forget, FFail told us 'The boom would get boomier'.
So ditch all this FFail bull**** about the public not wanting the party to stop and not listening to warnings, which didn't come from the goverment in any shape or form.
It's disingenuous and basically bollocks.

We should be all rolling in it now if we had listened to Donnie Cassidy.

Shea O'Meara

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Its blame the voters now is it? FF had a duty of care to the electorate and the nation as a whole. You do not buy a dog and then bark yourself. The voters voted FF believing or wanting to believe that the boom was going to continue.

It was the ethical duty of FF to manage the trust of the people, granted to It as the Governing Party. Instead, it deceived and deceived, not even coming clean when the IMF was in town. FF even tinkered with stamp duty when the boom was coming to an end, in an effort to further stoke the housing debacle. If people are prepared to vote for FF then its up to them, its only sad that we go on this sad cycle of coalition Governments and then FF, with no real alternative to the tried (tired) and failed FF party.

Exactly.

Things to do in Denver when you're dead:

Critical Bill begs to go out on the highway job and after much persuading Jimmy agrees to let him go do the job.....

Critical Bill: "I been wantin' to apologize to you, Jimmy, about that... what happened out on the highway the other night? You know, man, I just... Well, I kinda lost my **** out there, ya know? But, damn, Jimmy, it was kind of irresponsible of you to put me out on point in the first place, ya know? When you think about it, it really was sorta your fault. I mean, everybody knows... I'm out of my tits!"

In FFail world life does imitate art.

hytrogen

No absolutely no to FF.
More to the point who the hello reads the Indo??!

dsmythy

Should the economy be turned around Fine Gael would start the ruinous spending again. On the off chance they don't people will vote them out to change back to Fianna Fáil who will be promising the good aul yearly welfare and pension rises. It's a no win for Ireland and it's as much voters' fault as the politicians they bemoan. We just won't vote in a party as a country in a time of economic growth and no deficit who won't spend it. Simple as, bar some huge shift.

hallelujajordan

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I think people will vote for Fianna Fail again because in truth they know that ultimately they themselves are responsible. During the boom years the electorate returned FF because they didn't want the party to stop. Nobody was prepared to vote for anybody who would suggest "hang on - we cannot give ps pay increases or sw increases because we won't be able to afford it when the boom ends"

Agree, and for the same reasons Fine Gael were pushing very similar fiscal policies at the same time. Neither party were brave enough to really suggest the brakes needed to be applied because the electorate would have turned their back on any party who wanted to deprive them of their extra rental incomes, their foreign holidays or their new cars. . .but try and suggest that on here and you get accused of trying to make excuses for Fianna Fail

I honestly can't understand how another thread like this has been derailed into another debate about whether or not Fianna Fail have accepted responsibility or been appropriately blamed for our actions.

. . its time to move on . . and I'm not saying that because I don't want to have the debate . .. . I've had it many times on here. . I'm saying that because its a pointless debate . . we regurgitate the same accusations and the same defence . . and anyone who tries to focus on the future of Fianna Fail gets accused and abused, even though the electorate are clearly calling for alternatives and despite the calls for change on boards.ie for the last 10 years none of the internet revolutionaries seem ready to pick up the mantle. .

raymon

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Agree, and for the same reasons Fine Gael were pushing very similar fiscal policies at the same time. Neither party were brave enough to really suggest the brakes needed to be applied because the electorate would have turned their back on any party who wanted to deprive them of their extra rental incomes, their foreign holidays or their new cars. . .but try and suggest that on here and you get accused of trying to make excuses for Fianna Fail .

Your argument is that Fine Gael would have been as incompetent , corrupt, dishonest, arrogant and treacherous ?

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I honestly can't understand how another thread like this has been derailed into another debate about whether or not Fianna Fail have accepted responsibility or been appropriately blamed for oiur actions. .

That issue has been addressed by the mods . Most posters have kept on OP.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

. . its time to move on . . and I'm not saying that because I don't want to have the debate . .. . I've had it many times on here. . I'm saying that because its a pointless debate . . we regurgitate the same accusations and the same defence . . and anyone who tries to focus on the future of Fianna Fail gets accused and abused, even though the electorate are clearly calling for alternatives and despite the calls for change on boards.ie for the last 10 years none of the internet revolutionaries seem ready to pick up the mantle. .

It is not time to move on . Fianna Fail have have caused many families in Ireland to be thrown savagely into poverty. This is a direct result of Fianna Fails actions. Fianna Fail should disband .

Brussels Sprout

I always read about how FF bought elections but I heard a real beauty today on NewsTalk. So apparently in 2002 Charlie McCreevey increased child benefit by something like 30% and backdated it by 3 months, meaning that everyone in the country with children got a minor windfall TWELVE DAYS before a general election.

Can anyone tell me if this is in fact true because I find it hard to believe they could have been that transparent. Fergus Finley said it on the Right Hook this evening.

_Kaiser_

raymon wrote: »

Your argument is that Fine Gael would have been as incompetent , corrupt, dishonest, arrogant and treacherous ?

Well.....
- Reilly-gate
- Hogan and his attempts to interfere with local council policy regarding a family of travellers. Kenny doing much the same thing through Shatter
- "European of the year" while the country falls apart with mass emigration, unemployment and cutbacks - indeed! :rolleyes:
- Gilmore and his wife's new job

.. just to name a few recent events.

I have no loyalty to any politician or party myself. I'm interested in who/what will get the job done. Unfortunately our political system, and indeed national psyche is one where we are too busy trying to screw each other over, or worrying about what someone else might be getting that we're not, coupled with a "can't someone ELSE do it?" approach to civic responsibility (hell, responsibility in general nowadays - be it parenting, debt etc) means that we elect whoever is spouting what we want to hear.. rarely what we NEED to hear.

But until we grow up as a country then things are unlikely to change. That's why I firmly believe (and the fact that we have never-ending scandals while the electorate sits back, whinges on the internet/in the pub and then forgets about it the next day support this) that we're just not ready to govern ourselves.

As a people we need the government to decide everything for us so we can then blame them later, and as a country we have now been sold into economic servitude so Enda can get another attaboy and token award but still fall back on the "FF/the Troika/EU/Recession made us do it" excuse when needed.

It's like Groundhog Day over and over - except even in that case Bill Murray eventually finds a way out!

hallelujajordan

raymon wrote: »

Your argument is that Fine Gael would have been as incompetent , corrupt, dishonest, arrogant and treacherous ?

Eh, no . . my argument is that FG would not have put the brakes on the overspending that fed the bubble. .

raymon wrote:

That issue has been addressed by the mods . Most posters have kept on OP.

Eh, no . . about 75% of the posts in this thread are about whether or not FF have taken / should take responsibility for the crisis . .

raymon wrote:

It is not time to move on . Fianna Fail have have caused many families in Ireland to be thrown savagely into poverty. This is a direct result of Fianna Fails actions. Fianna Fail should disband .

Fianna Fail were culpable in part (a large part) for the crisis that threw many families in Ireland into poverty. I accept that, as do most of us in Fianna Fail. I have opinions about the other factors that contributed to the economic crisis which i have debated many times on here but which are irrelevant to the current debate.

I accept that you feel that Fianna Fail should disband; i would have had similar feelings about Sinn Fein in the past, however it is our democratic right not to. As always, and as is proper in any democracy, the people will decide. It seems that the people are beginning to recognise that Fianna Fail still have a lot to offer in Irish politics. You should respect that just as i respected the peoples right to turf us out in Feb 2011.

jimmycrackcorm

raymon wrote: »

I don't get your logic...... people voted for a party whose top brass were dishonest , corrupt , incompetent and arrogant , therefore they will vote for the same party again.

I'm confused with this logic.

But that's not what people voted for, nobody turned round and told politicians that they need to put construction workers out of their jobs in the boom times because the economy was overheating with all the building that was going on.

raymon

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

But that's not what people voted for, nobody turned round and told politicians that they need to put construction workers out of their jobs in the boom times because the economy was overheating with all the building that was going on.

I still don't see your logic .

I dont vote for FF because I personally believe them to be dishonest, incompetent, belligerent and historically they have been riddled with corruption.Not because a builder would get a job or not

Still confused with your way of thinking.

jmayo

Shea O'Meara wrote: »

I would disagree with the 'fair chunk' part. The key players who were not directly involved with the FFail party were high rollers, which you can't lay blame in equal measure to someone who bought a car or house they can't afford the mortgage on. All of those foreclosed or in the process of being forclosed did not bankrupt the country, if anything they were fooled into having eyes bigger than their belly, which is no excuse, but they are small fry.

I am not talking about a young couple or singleton who decided it was time a for a house lest they get left behind.

But I am talking about those who decided they would remortgage their existing home to buy to let or buy in Bulgaria, Cape Verde, Montenegro or some othe rplace most could not find on a map never mind spell.

BTW visited overseas property show where someone was selling properties in Cape Verdi.
I kid you not.
FFS if the idiots selling them couldn't be ar**d knowing how to spell the name of the place then what hope for the gullible greedy buyers.


I am also talking about the young singeltons who not just thought they would be left behind, but that whilst living at home with Mammy that they should have a couple of rental properties on the go.

On the other side I am not talking about the mcnamaras, the kellys, the dunnes, etc, but the guy who used to work as a builder/plasterer/roofer who suddenly decided that a small village in Leitrim, Roscommon or wherever needed 20 houses.
Shure all the returning immigrants and emigrants were going to fill them while they helped build another 20 new houses.
Then we had, like a recent thread on here, people like shopkeepers, publicans, solicitors, doctors, auctioneers, pharmacists, deciding to get into the development game.

Ah but shure weren't they often just doing up their premises.
Lets ignore the fact they were adding a hotel that might be filled once in a blue moon or a few apartments in a tiny village in the ars*hole of Clare.

Most of these people above loved ff and loved the boom they provided.

Medu

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

I always read about how FF bought elections but I heard a real beauty today on NewsTalk. So apparently in 2002 Charlie McCreevey increased child benefit by something like 30% and backdated it by 3 months, meaning that everyone in the country with children got a minor windfall TWELVE DAYS before a general election.

Can anyone tell me if this is in fact true because I find it hard to believe they could have been that transparent. Fergus Finley said it on the Right Hook this evening.

It probably happened a little different to that.

FF doubled child benefit leading up to the 2002 election(~€55 -> €110) over the course of 3 budgets. So maybe in the 2002 budget(decemeber 2001) they promised to increase it by 30% but didn't implement it until May 2002 and then back dated it a few months.
Of course once they were back in power(literally within weeks) they realised that spending had gotten out of control(buying elections isn't cheap!) so they started cutting back on a lot of spending. However a bit of petrol on the 'property boom' opened up a whole new source of unsustainable revenue with which they used to buy the 2007 election.

juuge

It is somewhat amusing if not sad that ex FF Ministers such as Dempsey, Carey and 'little dick' Roche are now set up as ‘advisors’ according to their ‘Linkedin’ profiles. Listing their experience in office and their political connections, there is no mention however of the part they played in the ruination of our nation – of course there isn’t!. These guys have some neck! We must never allow ourselves to forget what they did to our country.:mad:

jmayo

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Agree, and for the same reasons Fine Gael were pushing very similar fiscal policies at the same time. Neither party were brave enough to really suggest the brakes needed to be applied because the electorate would have turned their back on any party who wanted to deprive them of their extra rental incomes, their foreign holidays or their new cars. . .but try and suggest that on here and you get accused of trying to make excuses for Fianna Fail

I honestly can't understand how another thread like this has been derailed into another debate about whether or not Fianna Fail have accepted responsibility or been appropriately blamed for our actions.

. . its time to move on . . and I'm not saying that because I don't want to have the debate . .. . I've had it many times on here. . I'm saying that because its a pointless debate . . we regurgitate the same accusations and the same defence . .

By God it takes some fooking neck from someone in ff to tell people in this country to move on. :mad:
Is that going to be the standard line on the doorsteps come the next election ?

It is time Irish people cop on that ff are inherently bad for the country.
If that means we keep reminding eejits who would still vote for them then fair enough.
I always find it is always the ones who have done something wrong that want to move on and forget the past. :rolleyes:

The sooner this mess results in a new politcal landscape in Ireland the better.
I think for that to happen ff need to be obliterated.

What gets me is why anyone would chose to stay or worse still join a party that has been time and again shown to be rife with corrupt highly unethical individuals and where not alone is it condoned but in fact rewarded ?

And if FG, Labour show themselves to be as bad then we show them what we think of them at the ballot box as well.
Sadly as it is they are already showing they have individuals who would be quiet at home with some of those former ff stalwarts.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

and anyone who tries to focus on the future of Fianna Fail gets accused and abused, even though the electorate are clearly calling for alternatives and despite the calls for change on boards.ie for the last 10 years none of the internet revolutionaries seem ready to pick up the mantle. .

How can you provide an alternative when you are still led by one of the architects of the mess we are in.
Or perhaps you think, like martin, that people don't remember him sitting at cabinet for 14 odd years.
In that time he was one of those responsible for the creation of the non responsible non answerable bureaucratic mess that is the HSE.
He voted at cabinet meetings where decisions were made.
He supported a liar, two incompetent leaders and a leader who had more questions to answer about his wealth than some people the subject of enquiries by the CAB.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

...
... It seems that the people are beginning to recognise that Fianna Fail still have a lot to offer in Irish politics. You should respect that just as i respected the peoples right to turf us out in Feb 2011.

What does ff ever have to offer ?
Your party have been in power for most of the existence of this state and so far about the only thing you have ever really achieved is ensuring that a lot of the people born in this state have to emigrate.
Yes you achieved a few things but was that through the sheer will of a few forward thinking individuals.
For every forward thinking ff minister or leader I can give you many more just interested in protecting their own ar** and their own wealth, even if that was to the detriment of the greater good.

ff created an economic war in the 30s, a give away budget in the 70s that crippled us in the early 80s and then managed to undo all the hard work achieved by a few governments, including two led by themselves, and cuase us to end up with a begging bowl around the capitals of Europe and the US.
And you want us to move on and forget that ? :mad:

At the same time they managed to drag the name of politics through the gutter what with one scandal and scandalous leader following another.

Of course one like yourself can argue they are involved in the scandals and dragging the country into the economic mire because they were in power and the other main party, hell all the parties, would be just as bad given the chance.

But that is the realm of what ifs and resorting to the arguments used by children to get out of some misdemeanour or other.
It doesn't lessen the blame that ff carry for their actions.

Face it ff and ff politicans did these things, not anyone else.

Mal-Adjusted

jmayo wrote: »

ff created an economic war in the 30s, a give away budget in the 70s that crippled us in the early 80s and then managed to undo all the hard work achieved by a few governments, including two led by themselves, and cuase us to end up with a begging bowl around the capitals of Europe and the US.
And you want us to move on and forget that ? :mad:

i'm now imagining roaring this in MM's face should he ever call to the door. Sadly, no FF politician or crony did in the last election

Shea O'Meara

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Fianna Fail were culpable in part (a large part) for the crisis that threw many families in Ireland into poverty. I accept that, as do most of us in Fianna Fail.

So eh, you've not left so? I suppose you would still vote for them?
Why is that? Did they put a gypsy curse on you?
I don't get it. If my mechanic repeatedly screwed up repairs I'd go to another mechanic....but this is a hell of a lot more serious. They have played a huge roll in ruining lives. Yet thanks to the likes of you, they are most likely the future...Em thanks?

raymon

Mal-Adjusted wrote: »

i'm now imagining roaring this in MM's face should he ever call to the door. Sadly, no FF politician or crony did in the last election

Mal-adjusted, someone got their chance to let Willie know what he thought of FF at a recent protest that FF tried to join. Fast forward to the end of the clip 3;30. Fianna fail shouldn't turn up at protests


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LaQRijv4-U&feature=plcp


We need to keep remembering what FF did to our country.

hallelujajordan

jmayo wrote: »

By God it takes some fooking neck from someone in ff to tell people in this country to move on. :mad:
Is that going to be the standard line on the doorsteps come the next election ?

Politics is all about the future. . you cannot change the past, all you can do is learn from it. I'm moving on, not because I don't want to debate the past . . I'm more than happy to; but it doesn't get us anywhere. . I care about the future, that is why i am moving on . . whether or not you choose to is your own business.

jmayo wrote:

The sooner this mess results in a new politcal landscape in Ireland the better.
I think for that to happen ff need to be obliterated.

Perhaps you can elaborate on how the obliteration of Fianna Fail will lead to a new political landscape in Ireland? Where is the new landscape going to come from and why does it require the obliteration of FF ? Surely if there was a true alternative, FF would not be experiencing a recovery in the opinion polls. . ????

jmayo wrote:

And if FG, Labour show themselves to be as bad then we show them what we think of them at the ballot box as well.
Sadly as it is they are already showing they have individuals who would be quiet at home with some of those former ff stalwarts.

I quite agree, but when we turf FG/LAB out and we obliterate FF, who is going to run the country ??? The New political landscape of course . . which is who exactly ? ?

jmayo wrote:

Of course one like yourself can argue they are involved in the scandals and dragging the country into the economic mire because they were in power and the other main party, hell all the parties, would be just as bad given the chance.

Scandals ? - No . . there is no reason for me to argue that the level of corruption that we saw from certain elements of Fianna Fail in the past would have been the case had FG been in power

Economic Mire ? - Absolutely . . any reasoned analysis would conclude that the fiscal policies of Fine Gael would have led us down the same path as those of FF. And that's not a what if because guess what, they PUBLISHED their policies . . and the reason they would have led us down this path is because that is what the Irish electorate wanted and voted for.

Shea O'Meara

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Politics is all about the future. . you cannot change the past, all you can do is learn from it. I'm moving on, not because I don't want to debate the past . . I'm more than happy to; but it doesn't get us anywhere. . I care about the future, that is why i am moving on . . whether or not you choose to is your own business.

A few points. We are not talking about the past, the country is still pretty ****ed. Also it's the last government, not Sean Lemass we're talking about. As long as FFail won't man up 100% as having been the caretakers of the Irish people and therefore responsible, (not the public, not Lehmans) during the lead up to and when the **** hit the fan, this 'debate' will not go away. After every major gaffee, corrupt thieving issue we are told by the FFail faithful, 'move on, that was then'. Give me a break with that bull. It's an insult. I am disgusted by that FFail sweep it under the carpet and forget about it attitude, like it doesn't matter. Based on track record and the founder I would honestly back in all seriousness a move to make FFail an illegal organisation for the good of the state and it's people.
You'd be still waving the flag for Dev had he not been found to be a thief and treasonous lout....like Haughey and when the dust settles I'd warrant Ahern.

The lack of logic and what's in it for me attitude of FFail will always doom this country.

tipptom

Ive said it before and I will say it again,Donie Cassidy.

loggedoff

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

Well that didn't take long.

Just 20 months after the party's annihilation in the last general election the Sunday Independent has firmly shown it's true colours. For the lifetime of this government the paper has contended itself with sniping at the government parties and Sinn Fein, whilst practically ignoring Fiann Fail altogether (The one exception being it backing the proxy-FF candidate, Sean Gallagher, in last year's presidential election).

In today's "analysis" section the paper manages to include 3 articles under the main heading "Is Fianna Fail the Future?" with such headlines as:

• Our only hope of policy chage lies in a reinvigorated Fianna Fail
• FF back in business as "squeezed middle" man returns home
• FF was arrogant, now it's back to roots

Not to mention the nauseating Eoghan Harris in a separate article:

• Off the ropes: Martin makes a fresh start for Fianna Fail

The best bit of all though is a Reservoir Dogs style photo of the remains of the parliamentary party walking together along a tree lined path including such leading lights as Niall Collins, Deirdre Heney, Denis O' Donovan, Timmy Dooley and Billy Kelleher (no sign of Willie O' Dea though).


So clearly the Sindo thinks that they've waited a respectable amount of time to champion the party that torpedoed the economy during their 14 years in power.

So, do you think Fianna Fail are the future?

Problem is, there is no alternative. FG really are the same thing.
They've continued with the exact same policies as what went before.
The same 'jobs for the boys' attitude, the same stroke politics ala James Reilly and the same political ineptness as FF.
It looks, to the untrained or even trained eye, that we as a country are incapable of self governance.
Maybe it's best if the Germans continue to call the shots here, .

take everything

raymon wrote: »

Fast forward to the end of the clip 3;30. Fianna fail shouldn't turn up at protests


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LaQRijv4-U&feature=plcp


We need to keep remembering what FF did to our country.

God the end of that is great.
That O' Dea clown lurking at that disability protest like some opportunistic scavenger clinging to any cause for political capital.
Too brazen/stupid/insensitive to see the protest is a direct result of what FF did.

His stupid, smirking expression.
Didn't have the decency to hold his hand up and acknowledge in some way the guy's anger.

He was always the go-to guy who could always be wheeled out to tow the party line no matter what they got up to over the years.

Makes me sick.
They're like parasites, feeding off any sort of political capital, no matter how they get it.

And Martin now the most popular leader.
Nauseating and utterly depressing.
Can't help feeling again and again "Stupid fcuking country".

Brussels Sprout

loggedoff wrote: »

Maybe it's best if the Germans continue to call the shots here, .

The problem is that they don't. The EU and IMF have basically said "Here's some money but you can only get it on condition that you reduce your current deficit by X billion euro for the next few years. We really don't care how you do it."

So instead we have the absolute insanity of a situation where the government have promised not to raise income tax, cut headline social welfare payments or cut wages and benefits in the public sector.

If the Germans were actually calling the shots they wouldn't be making economic decisions based largely on the political knock-on that these decision would have.

loggedoff

Brussels Sprout wrote: »

The problem is that they don't. The EU and IMF have basically said "Here's some money but you can only get it on condition that you reduce your current deficit by X billion euro for the next few years. We really don't care how you do it."

So instead we have the absolute insanity of a situation where the government have promised not to raise income tax, cut headline social welfare payments or cut wages and benefits in the public sector.

If the Germans were actually calling the shots they wouldn't be making economic decisions based largely on the political knock-on that these decision would have.

True.
What we seem to have is a bastardised version of the two....

jmayo

raymon wrote: »

Mal-adjusted, someone got their chance to let Willie know what he thought of FF at a recent protest that FF tried to join. Fast forward to the end of the clip 3;30. Fianna fail shouldn't turn up at protests


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LaQRijv4-U&feature=plcp


We need to keep remembering what FF did to our country.

Fair dues to that man.
He didn't tolerate that little bollox from Limerick.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Politics is all about the future. . you cannot change the past, all you can do is learn from it. I'm moving on, not because I don't want to debate the past . . I'm more than happy to; but it doesn't get us anywhere. . I care about the future, that is why i am moving on . . whether or not you choose to is your own business.

If you really cared you would leave ff which has time and again proven to be incompetent and worse still corrupt.
Can I ask how the hell you can stay in a party with people like o'dea at the top ?


And please none of the political mumbo jumbo sh**e about changing things from within.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Perhaps you can elaborate on how the obliteration of Fianna Fail will lead to a new political landscape in Ireland? Where is the new landscape going to come from and why does it require the obliteration of FF ? Surely if there was a true alternative, FF would not be experiencing a recovery in the opinion polls. . ????

If ff was obliterated off the landscape as has happened to parties in other countries, a new dynamic takes over.
And maybe it might finally be a wake up call to all politicans to cop to fook on.
As it is some of the new incumbents appear to be auditioning for roles with ff.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

I quite agree, but when we turf FG/LAB out and we obliterate FF, who is going to run the country ??? The New political landscape of course . . which is who exactly ? ?

Do you think we would have a vacuum for long ?
Something always takes over and we Irish are not extremists so don't worry it wouldn't be SF or some descendent of the O'duffy blueshirts.

And yes I get it that some people think FG are the descendents, but to the best of my knowledge they aren't any of them dressing up in nazi style uniforms espousing fascism.
And if you think the likes of Varadkar are right wing you are deluded.

hallelujajordan wrote: »

Scandals ? - No . . there is no reason for me to argue that the level of corruption that we saw from certain elements of Fianna Fail in the past would have been the case had FG been in power

Economic Mire ? - Absolutely . . any reasoned analysis would conclude that the fiscal policies of Fine Gael would have led us down the same path as those of FF. And that's not a what if because guess what, they PUBLISHED their policies . . and the reason they would have led us down this path is because that is what the Irish electorate wanted and voted for.

In a sane country or state you do know that the government, much like a parent or teacher, are not there to just give in to every whim of the electorate if it means the long term viability of the state is threatened.
What am I saying ?
Shure ff and especially guys like haughey & ahern, only ever cared about re election.
They didn't give two fooks about the actual country.

ff much like the world's bankers decided to hell with the future, lets make sure we do well right now.
And yes I know a fair few others did the same.

But get this little nugget ff were in charge of the bandwagon.

Anyway I am out of here as I know you will continue on your path and me on my mind.
Besides I will probably be infracted once again for my comments on you and your party.

leonidas83

I dont think Fianna Fail will get back in the next election but I can see them retaining power the following election.

Their has been little to no political reform or changes to legislation governing tds, their are as corrupt as ever & as spineless. This was bound to happen, we are finished as a country if this doesnt change.

If they retain power the electorate of this country have nothing to complain about again. It will be a dark day in Irish politics & an even darker future for Ireland

mrrepublic

The current Goverment are acting in a responsible manor and at least we seem to be free of scandal and corruption.
We can only hope that the measures taken by the goverment will help bring back our compeditivness and attract more foreign investment. regardless of what we think thw books have to be balanced.
Lets hope that the current goverment will not start the last two years of their term trying to buy votes at the expense of what the country needs. F.F. were experts at that and we fell for it every time. if F.F. get re-elected at the next election it will show that as a nation we are full of fools.

thebman

mrrepublic wrote: »

The current Goverment are acting in a responsible manor and at least we seem to be free of scandal and corruption.
We can only hope that the measures taken by the goverment will help bring back our compeditivness and attract more foreign investment. regardless of what we think thw books have to be balanced.
Lets hope that the current goverment will not start the last two years of their term trying to buy votes at the expense of what the country needs. F.F. were experts at that and we fell for it every time. if F.F. get re-elected at the next election it will show that as a nation we are full of fools.

I wouldn't call the Minister of Health free from scandal/corruption.

A number of dodgy stuff attributed to him.

FTA69

raymon wrote: »

Your argument is that Fine Gael would have been as incompetent , corrupt, dishonest, arrogant and treacherous ?

Of course they would. During the boom Fine Gael never attempted to call for moderation, or regulation or sanity of any sort. Instead they (as well as Labour) were feverishly trying to claim the credit for starting the whole casino capitalism rollercoaster that took place, wholly buying into the politics of greed and excess that Fianna Fáil presided over. While Fine Gael may not have the same tradition of ingrained cute hoority that the other crowd have (only because they haven't been in office as long), they're certainly cut from the same cloth. They espouse the same broad populist sh*te, have the same vaguely right-wing ideology and have displayed at times the same level of corruption. One only has to look at their record in government now, the status quo has prevailed where working people get shafted on a daily basis in the name of saving an elite.

You couldn't make it up like. Anyone who thinks Fine Gael are any more noble or committed to the average working person than Fianna Fáil were is bloody codding themselves to be honest.

jmayo

FTA69 wrote: »

Of course they would. During the boom Fine Gael never attempted to call for moderation, or regulation or sanity of any sort.

Ehh you will find speechs, including budget speeches, by various members of FG and Labour complaining about our loss of competiviness, the continuation of tax incentives like section 23 grants that was fueling property investment, and the fact benchmarking did not appear to be linked to any productivity gains.

Now of course during elections they engaged in the same auction politics that bertie was a master at.
They all tried to outbid each other with landish policies.

Sadly I think if they said otherwise they would have fared even worse in elections as all a big chunk of the electorate wanted was the party to continue.
Hell the electorate even set aside concerns about the wastage, poor ethics and unsuitability of the government leaders to ensure they got more of the same.

FTA69 wrote: »

Instead they (as well as Labour) were feverishly trying to claim the credit for starting the whole casino capitalism rollercoaster that took place,

Ehh as far as I know they rightly did claim to have a part ot play in the creation of the Real Celtic Tiger, i.e. the economy that thrived during the late 90s and into 2000/2001, which was based on real growth in areas such as technology, pharma, etc.
After all both parties had been in government in the early to mid 90s and played a part in the creation of the economy that followed.

There was nothing wrong with that economy since it created mostly sustainable and often high worth jobs and brought export revenues into the country. It wasn't based on the availability of cheap credit.

What some label as the celtic tiger, ala the economy after 2002, was a ponzi scheme creating jobs in construction and retail sectors at the detriment to real employment, was all based on cheap credit and brought shag all export revenues to the country.

FTA69 wrote: »

wholly buying into the politics of greed and excess that Fianna Fáil presided over. While Fine Gael may not have the same tradition of ingrained cute hoority that the other crowd have (only because they haven't been in office as long), they're certainly cut from the same cloth. They espouse the same broad populist sh*te, have the same vaguely right-wing ideology and have displayed at times the same level of corruption. One only has to look at their record in government now, the status quo has prevailed where working people get shafted on a daily basis in the name of saving an elite.

All parties have varying degrees of cute hoorism.
Just see the minister of health, some of the cr** pulled by Labour members, the failure of socialists and independents to sanction or outright condemm a fellow independent who is a tax cheat, the double standards and hypocrisy shown by SF members.

Who exactly are the working classes ?
Who are the elite ?

FFS we don't have any real right wing parties, because if we did we might see a cut in the lavish social welfare state and highly pampered public sector that we currently have.
The real working people are getting shafted not just to protect some elite who happen to be rich (as you might put it) or well connected, but to protect a certain class of people who did not even work during the celtic tiger/property bubble and the public sector who still enjoy a pampered existence for the most part with perks that normal working people can only dream about.

FTA69 wrote: »

You couldn't make it up like. Anyone who thinks Fine Gael are any more noble or committed to the average working person than Fianna Fáil were is bloody codding themselves to be honest.

Again who is the average working person ?
Would they be the ones that SF, ULA, Socialist party claim they represent ?

rightwingdub

If Fianna Fail ever become the largest party ever again in Ireland then I think Ireland needs to be Renamed the Republic of Thick Paddies, of course idiots like Willie Kealy and Eoghan Harris have no objection whatsoever to seeing that cancerous party back in government.