Season 3 Episode 7 When the Dead Come Knocking [** Spoilers **]

expectationlost

wonderfullife wrote: »

true, if there was hope of a "cure" or some element of humanity left , then she effectively murdered her sister unnecessarily. But she knows there's nothing left, the whole CDC thing in season 1 and experiences since have shown that. The experiment was going nowhere , if she didn't act then the Doc was for dinner.

ah but its classic zombie lore that there is some humanity left and i think walking dead follows that generally enough

wonderfullife

expectationlost wrote: »

ok so if michonne was trying to gain favour with the group which she was by going to prison with the formula, then why wouldn't she tell them about andrea too ( because andrea had been nitching about the group so much they michonne thinks it wouldn't gain her favour to tell them about andrea) and maybe telling them about merle in front of daryl would also be a bit of risk

im not so sure the baby formula was an attempt to gain favour. She had just been shot, obviously figured the prison must be safe if they have a baby there (and Glenn and Maggie didnt look starving, so food too). So i get it up to a point. But once inside and Rick tries to give her water she reaches for a sword?!! PLEASE!!!! so lame and predictable for this character. scowl, reach for sword, refuse to talk..... doesnt make much sense or make her likeable at all.

expectationlost

gain favour, gain entrance which ever

wonderfullife

expectationlost wrote: »

gain favour, gain entrance which ever

well yeah but why then not spill some beans?!! Wouldnt even say her name! what could her own name do! I dont know, just seems contrived, one dimensional and very predictable. Maybe the writers believe it gives her some mystery but frankly they're destroying any potential the tv Michonne had of emulating the apparently loved comic book character.

pixelburp

I think it's bizarre how uniform the bad writing for female characters in this show is: it's the one aspect from season 2 that has snuck through; regrettable because otherwise season 3 has been a revelation. Michonne takes the biscuit of course with the continued lone-warrior surliness, flying in the face of common sense and her own apparent logic, but Andrea's not that far behind. I get that this is ~8 months later & many things could have changed, but is this the same Andrea that had nothing to live for? The moment she started getting bright-eyed about Woodbury I found it a bit much to believe, and then see-sawing over to contempt for the fight, and now into the Governor's bed. Hmmmm.

sparkthatbled

Quite an episode. Glenn head-butting Merle, then taking out the Zombie while tied to a chair was awesome. Agree with everyone about Michonne, dunno why she couldn't just tell them everything. Maybe she's planning to set the 2 groups against each other and amidst all the confusion of Daryl seeing Merle and the attaempted rescue of Glenn and Maggie she can sneak in and 'rescue' Andrea, who, if following form, will betray her to the governor. As for her constant facial expression, it reminds me of the actress who plays Cersei in Game Of Thrones and her "i smell a fart" face that she totally learnt from that episode of Friends. I think someone is bound to die in the mid-season finale but there is no clue who that will be yet, which is really good!

username123

sparkthatbled wrote: »

Glenn head-butting Merle, then taking out the Zombie while tied to a chair was awesome.

You know, those scenes have been a highlight. The sheer shock value of Glenn head butting Merle was great - I was like, GO GLENN!!!

John_D80

wonderfullife wrote: »

well yeah but why then not spill some beans?!! Wouldnt even say her name! what could her own name do! I dont know, just seems contrived, one dimensional and very predictable. Maybe the writers believe it gives her some mystery but frankly they're destroying any potential the tv Michonne had of emulating the apparently loved comic book character.

Absolutely, she was the most exciting character when she was introduced in the comic book, but TV Michonne doesn't even resemble the shadow of her comic book alter-ego. She improved slightly from the start of the series but now she's just gone stagnant. I don't think she'll be seriously missed if she dies.

expectationlost

comic spoilers

michonne is worse in the comic shows, she is apparently shown to be a strong women by the amount of (sexual violence) she takes

username123

Why are people discussing stuff from the comic books here? Is this not an episode discussion thread only?

PhiloCypher

John_D80 wrote: »

Absolutely, she was the most exciting character when she was introduced in the comic book, but TV Michonne doesn't even resemble the shadow of her comic book alter-ego. She improved slightly from the start of the series but now she's just gone stagnant. I don't think she'll be seriously missed if she dies.

To be read by John D80 alone

She resembles her a lot actually, just its the post torture Michonne she resembles and not the slightly more open Michonne we got in the comics pre that event. They are aiming for a Daryl type arc for her from surly outsider to big ol' softy , not saying they are doing it anywhere near as well but I believe that is what they are aiming for.

Nervous Wreck

expectationlost wrote: »

comic spoilers

michonne is worse in the comic shows, she is apparently shown to be strong women by the amount of (sexal violence) she takes

That's not even true...

Syferus

The Michonne stuff is OOT to say the least in this thread. After what happened in Woodbury, nevermind her pre-existing temperament, the only logical reaction you could expect from her when someone almost lets her be eaten by walkers and then holds her down while a bunch of other people are armed and surrounding her is to the reach for her weapon. Obviously the weapon also has huge emotional value to her as well.

As has been said, Andrea being abandoned by them and her recent experiences would have made her less than eager to share and care with Rick's group.

The Merle thing, if she's even cottoned on, would just throw a spanner in the works from her perspective, indeed after Merle and Woodbury attempted to assassinate her it's likely she's going through with this whole process partly to get revenge fir herself, her personality would certainly indicate that's distinct possibility. Nevermind her perhaps wanting to save Andrea from what she now knows is a community with a very rotten core. I think people expecting her to come along and just join team Rick and not have her own agenda are living in a fantasy land thatthe entire franchise has routinely shown it doesn't deal in. Everyone's got their own play.

I haven't a clue what she's like in the comic books, nor do I want to know. This of all episodes wasn't the time to be criticising her, though, because we won't even know her true intentions until at least the next episode.

The idea that the female characters have been terrible is the whole is an incredibly hyperbolic statement too, indeed for the last season (season 2.2 to now) or so there has been plenty of consistency and interesting situations for the female characters. Hardly on a level with the male leads but more than anything the apocalypse has led to a very real democratisation of role, at least in terms of Rick's group.

Kirby

sparkthatbled wrote: »

As for her constant facial expression, it reminds me of the actress who plays Cersei in Game Of Thrones and her "i smell a fart" face that she totally learnt from that episode of Friends.

Ah here now. Can't let that one go. Are you honestly comparing the portrayal of Cersei to the portrayal of Michonne?

"When you play the game of thrones you win....or you die".
Can you imagine your wan who plays michonne standing opposite Sean Bean and delivering that line? Scowly McScowlerson? It would have been a laughing stock.

Lena Headey is twice the actress is Danai Gurira, crap character or not.

pixelburp

Syferus wrote:

The idea that the female characters have been terrible is the whole is an incredibly hyperbolic statement too, indeed for the last season (season 2.2 to now) or so there has been plenty of consistency and interesting situations for the female characters. Hardly on a level with the male leads but more than anything the apocalypse has led to a very real democratisation of role, at least in terms of Rick's group.

I don't see how it's hyperbolic at all - to me, women in the Walking Dead have been cyphers at best; situations aren't the problem, the basic writing behind the character is. The women have not been not-proactive: they've tended to be messed-up victims (Carol, Andrea), hen-pecking shrews (Lori) or simply non-entities (most of Hersels family). In fact, they actually resigned the women to home-making ffs: cleaning the house and preparing the meals - hardly 'interesting' situations. Season 2 again takes another bullet on this point, and I actually recall Lori insisting with someone the women's duty was to make sure the menfolk had a nice meal & tidy house to come back to.

Maggie's the closest thing to a woman taking charge, but even her arc was defined in some part by nabbing Glenn (again, I recall her saying that she couldn't be fussy in the apocalypse), but I was hoping Michonne might strike a balance for female characters that aren't all about baking cookies for the boys. Instead she's been less a personality so far, more a sulk masquerading as a badass.

To be fair, Season 3 has shown improvement, even if Carol turning into a cheeky back-chatter has been a bit weird, but little things like Andrea's bizarre flip-flopping of moods makes me think the writers don't know how to write competent females and are just defaulting to lazy tropes.

Put it this way - for the female cast, has there been anything to compare with the Rick / Shane conflict of season 2? The development of Daryl as he slowly became one of the group? The (very) slow erosion of Hershel's beliefs in season 2? I don't think so - and Lori definitely doesn't count lol

thegreengoblin

pixelburp wrote: »

I think it's bizarre how uniform the bad writing for female characters in this show is: it's the one aspect from season 2 that has snuck through; regrettable because otherwise season 3 has been a revelation. Michonne takes the biscuit of course with the continued lone-warrior surliness, flying in the face of common sense and her own apparent logic, but Andrea's not that far behind. I get that this is ~8 months later & many things could have changed, but is this the same Andrea that had nothing to live for? The moment she started getting bright-eyed about Woodbury I found it a bit much to believe, and then see-sawing over to contempt for the fight, and now into the Governor's bed. Hmmmm.

That's wimmin for ya!

Another brilliant episode, the tension was unbelievable in the Glenn/Merle and Maggie/Governor scenes. I really felt Glenn's sheer terror when he realised he was going to have a walker coming at him while he was strapped to a chair. I loved that roar he let out at the end, a mixture of defiance at having defeated the walker and sheer desperation at the situation he had found himself in.

I can honestly say I've probably never looked forward to an episode of any show more than next week's. I'm counting the hours and days.

Syferus

This expectation of gender equality is so totally rooted in the progressive mindset of today rather than the realities of a world that's completely lawless. Indeed even today it's not a reality so to expect it in a zombie apocalypse is a little wrong-headed.

Would people rather something that's true to the world or something that pats the ego of peoples' gender equality views? Sometimes it really can be that stark a choice in this sort of world.

I think the show has done a better job than most of creating multi-faceted female characters, nevermind the fact there's plenty of very real scope for females to be little more than damsels-in-distress or concubines in this scenario.

PhiloCypher

Syferus wrote: »

This expectation of gender equality is so totally rooted in the progressive mindset of today rather than the realities of a world that's completely lawless. Indeed even today it's not a reality so to expect it in a zombie apocalypse is a little wrong-headed.

Would people rather something that's true to the world or something that pats the ego of peoples' gender equality views? Sometimes it really can be that stark a choice in this sort of world.

I think the show has done a better job than most of creating multi-faceted female characters, nevermind the fact there's plenty of very real scope for females to be little more than damsels-in-distress or concubines in this scenario.

While I agree with your first two paragraphs , I'd argue that regardless of how many facets you give a character if those facets reveal them to be a contrary and a wet blanket (Lori & Carol Respectively) how is that a positive . Regardless of what depth you choose to ascribe to those female characters they were written in such as a way as to make them impossible to warm to in those first two seasons.

don ramo

username123 wrote: »

Why are people discussing stuff from the comic books here? Is this not an episode discussion thread only?

yeah its getting annoying already, the reason this forum was created is so that people who have read the comics and create their own thread on each episode and freely discuss the differences between the show and the comics, so that we the people who havent read the comics arent tempted to look at whats behind the spoiler tags,

just state in the thread title if its for people who have or have not read the comics, thats how is been done over on the game of thrones forum and its worked out quite well,

A Neurotic

Just rewatched. What an awesome episode. The music over the last few minutes is incredible, really builds up to the next episode. Can't wait for next week, although I f*cking hate this mid-season hiatus lark. Who invented it and why?

pixelburp

Syferus wrote: »

This expectation of gender equality is so totally rooted in the progressive mindset of today rather than the realities of a world that's completely lawless. Indeed even today it's not a reality so to expect it in a zombie apocalypse is a little wrong-headed.

Would people rather something that's true to the world or something that pats the ego of peoples' gender equality views? Sometimes it really can be that stark a choice in this sort of world.

Uhm, ok. So basically the world collapses, and women descend to the kitchen, or become nervous wrecks? The idea that women in this apocalyptic world might have some thoughts beyond "must henpeck husband" or "must bone last eligible bachelor / David Morrisey" isn't exactly radical modernism you know, it's just looking for some balance in the writing.

The complaint isn't about pandering, ego, or ideas towards gender equality, this is talking about writing three-dimensional characters and aren't ticking of a list of lazy-ass cliches and tropes that have been so cack-handed as to be hilarious.

It's worth pointing at the recently-finished Walking Dead game, where there were a number of characters who just happened to be female, yet were both relateable & realistic. Which is saying something when comic characters such as Lily, Carley, Molly and Crista - to name four - come of as more realistic than the TV show. Oddly enough they weren't all mothers or hysterics, but ordinary people trying to survive.

I think the show has done a better job than most of creating multi-faceted female characters, nevermind the fact there's plenty of very real scope for females to be little more than damsels-in-distress or concubines in this scenario.

Such as? I mean I did ask if there were any equivalents to the arcs shown by the male characters, so I'm waiting for them because I'm drawing a blank here.

wonderfullife

pixelburp wrote: »

Uhm, ok. So basically the world collapses, and women descend to the kitchen, or become nervous wrecks? The idea that women in this apocalyptic world might have some thoughts beyond "must henpeck husband" or "must bone last eligible bachelor / David Morrisey" isn't exactly radical modernism you know, it's just looking for some balance in the writing.

The complaint isn't about pandering, ego, or ideas towards gender equality, this is talking about writing three-dimensional characters and aren't ticking of a list of lazy-ass cliches and tropes that have been so cack-handed as to be hilarious.

It's worth pointing at the recently-finished Walking Dead game, where there were a number of characters who just happened to be female, yet were both relateable & realistic. Which is saying something when comic characters such as Lily, Carley, Molly and Crista - to name four - come of as more realistic than the TV show. Oddly enough they weren't all mothers or hysterics, but ordinary people trying to survive.



Such as? I mean I did ask if there were any equivalents to the arcs shown by the male characters, so I'm waiting for them because I'm drawing a blank here.

whilst you have valid points, the "ticking off clichés" is not exactly restricted to female characters. Token main cast black character with little input or impact, T-Dog check, mildly humorous Asian character basically a caricature of ones in Indiana Jones, The Goonies etc, Glenn, check, wise old man moral conscience and voice of wisdom, Dale and Herschel double check......

The problem is not the cliché of the characters, as even a thoroughly clichéd character can be compelling, if it's written properly and acted properly. Sadly, this is where your point comes in - the female characters have not been done too many favours in the writing room.

TWD is not alone in this obviously. The Wire is my favourite show of all time, cliché in itself that lol, and it's one of the only shows in recent memory that has written 3-dimensional female characters. But even the women of The Wire were largely confined to minor roles.

It's hard to blame Sarah Wayne Callies for the Lori fiasco. She's a competent actress, ok she's unlikely to win any Oscars but she's competent and she proved that in her final scenes which hit the right spot. But the writing was all over the place.

In Carols case, she did have a controlling abusive husband so i guess once she lost him and her daughter she was always likely to open up in time and be more of her own person. So i can buy that arc. The problem is i don't really care much for the character due to the 1st two seasons, so it's hard to warm to her now she is getting some more meaningful storylines.

Andrea - where to start. Don't rate the actress, don't understand the characters yo-yo behaviour from suicidal to horny teenager to suspicious to trusting. Seems like a random sequence of events and i don't think the hiatus off screen helped her character. Might have been useful to have a flashback episode partly dealing with Andrea & Michonnes journey.

Michonne - both writing and acting - has been a black spot on an otherwise amazing season. Her motivations as a character are all over the place and because we know next to nothing about her, all we see are scowls and hisses and reach for the sword and show you can swing it. I think that would work much better in a comic book than on tv, in a comic book you have a lot of cool Zombie kills to mask the characters deficiencies - on tv most of the zombie kills are pretty cool, crossbow, sword, gun, whatever - so the character needs depth. She hasn't got it. Period.

Frisbee

Probably the weakest episode of the season for me so far, but still better then pretty much all of Season 2. Sets up next weeks mid season finale nicely though so you could forgive this having some filler.

The interrogation scenes were obviously brilliant. As was the scene betweek Rick and Carl just before Rick leaves for Woodbury imo.

I really wish they'd just write Michonne out of the show at this stage. An inanimate carbon rod would produce more plot points than her.

krudler

Glen went all badass that episode, not that he hasnt been previously but dang. also Maggie, dang.

ryoishin

Lets look at it this way.

When Michonne left Woodbury she did nt carry on travelling. She hung around to cause mayhem.

I dont think shes interested in making friends with the prison group. She sees this as an opportunity to cause further mayhem for the Gov and his men.

Also from her injury after being shot and only being stitched up the next day Id say she has (or should have) a touch of the delusions.

ryoishin

The Gov probably could nt get it up to rape Maggie after all the banging with Andrea. He was probably sleepy from listening to her boring epic rants.

ryoishin

The emotional response from the doctor could be further sign of bad decision making possibly leading to further problems for the Woodbury community.

Kirby

Frisbee wrote: »

I really wish they'd just write Michonne out of the show at this stage. An inanimate carbon rod would produce more plot points than her.

VS




I know who has my vote

TheUsual

Great and creepy episode.
I would personally take my chances alone in a hut armed to the teeth myself, that old coot living on his own has the right idea.

sparkthatbled

Kirby wrote: »

Ah here now. Can't let that one go. Are you honestly comparing the portrayal of Cersei to the portrayal of Michonne?

"When you play the game of thrones you win....or you die".
Can you imagine your wan who plays michonne standing opposite Sean Bean and delivering that line? Scowly McScowlerson? It would have been a laughing stock.

Lena Headey is twice the actress is Danai Gurira, crap character or not.

I was saying that in my opinion they both have a single facial expression for every emotion, and they both look like they are thinking "I smell a fart... Did i fart? Better keep quiet just in case". Obviously Lena Headey is a much better and more accomplished actress who delivers some great lines well.

Frisbee

Kirby wrote: »

VS




I know who has my vote

THE ROD!

Padraig Mor

username123 wrote: »

You know, those scenes have been a highlight. The sheer shock value of Glenn head butting Merle was great - I was like, GO GLENN!!!

I'm watching Series 3 on FX UK, so about a week behind. Unless I'm mistaken they didn't show that head butt, just Merle with blood on his face.

username123

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I'm watching Series 3 on FX UK, so about a week behind. Unless I'm mistaken they didn't show that head butt, just Merle with blood on his face.

No way!!! It was a great head butt. Merle wasnt expecting it. My respect for Glenn went way up, a brave man to headbutt Merle in the face while at his mercy!!

coolabula

Padraig Mor wrote: »

I'm watching Series 3 on FX UK, so about a week behind. Unless I'm mistaken they didn't show that head butt, just Merle with blood on his face.

Yeah they did, it was quick, but it was definately shown

murpho999

Another strong episode.

I'm amazed how this show has turned around after I nearly gave up during season 2.

The scene with Governor making Maggie strip was chilling.

Also find it bizzare that they are ok with subjecting the viewer to gushing blood, beheadings, entrails spewing out of bodies, bodies being pulled in half, amputations, head stabbings, victims being eaten alive in full gore but nudity and bad language is clearly a no-no!

Jason Todd

murpho999 wrote: »

Another strong episode.

I'm amazed how this show has turned around after I nearly gave up during season 2.

The scene with Governor making Maggie strip was chilling.

Also find it bizzare that they are ok to subjecting the viewer to gusshing blood, beheadings, entrails spewing out of bodies, bodies being pulled in half, amputations, head stabbings, victims being eaten alive in full gore but nudity and bad language is clearly a no-no!

Never thought of that, it is a weird one alright. Although there was some cursing in the first season, it seems to have gone now.

Blazer

Jason Todd wrote: »

Never thought of that, it is a weird one alright. Although there was some cursing in the first season, it seems to have gone now.

Its the States...blood, violence...guts..no problem
Nudity? No way.

Always been like this really.