So I taxed the car today

awec

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As a percentage last year's rise on co2 rates was large, so will this year's. The cc rates will go up by max 15 per cent imo.

awec

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Voodoomelon

RoverJames wrote: »

As a percentage last year's rise on co2 rates was large, so will this year's. The cc rates will go up by max 15 per cent imo.

I agree. What do you make of the idea to increase it though, do you think it results in more people not paying and having a net increase of zero?

Going over old ground
I believe the vast majority of people do tax their cars and will continue to do so. The vast majority won't find the increase a huge burden and the minority who won't now pay are a drop in the ocean. The government have no regard for the minority of motorists with motor tax rates over a grand on the cc system and there's less of them on the emissions system. As long as the average Joe stumps up the extra percent on the 250 to 700 he's already paying and most others on the higher to tax stuff do too which I think will than the result is increased revenue
Most people who don't pay motor tax won't regardless of any increases or decreases, imo they're analgous to folk who buy rip off DVDs, smuggled cigarettes etc etc or the muck savage who has never taxed his 1.3 corolla

Saab Ed

RobAMerc wrote: »

This makes total sense - the disk is really only a simple visual aid to police now.
ANPR actually makes it defunct and would allow a simple and easy to police system for DD.

ANPR me hole. Far too many cases of women and kids being left on the side of the road because the computer says noooo when in actual fact, the fcukin moron pressing buttons in an office somewhere late on a Friday evening was just in too much of a hurry to piss off home and didn't update something correctly.

By the way , its not just Tax and Insurance they attach to the ANPR computer. Be unfortunate enough to have parked in the wrong place at the wrong time, to have been seen in the vicinity of an area where a crime was commited or for the previous owner to have been involved in something dubious , then look forward to being pulled in right left and centre by a fella from Belmullet with a poor grasp of English and ill fitting uniform for years to come.

This is Ireland, we couldn't manage a good sh!te nevermind manage all this information. To think we're capable of passing it on to what are, in essence, the least educated member of a West of Ireland farming family, stuck in a Vectra at 4 in the morning and for it to be dealth with correctly is like expecting Father Dougal to have a degree in Political Science. Madness!

LIGHTNING

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Nope I would disagree with that 100%. I have no problem legally buying games/DVD as I think the authors deserve the money. Cant say the same for the goverment.

Many to most people think the government don't deserve the money, they still pay their motor tax.

larchill

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Yeah those people driving around in 15 year old micras are the financial elite. Not everyone paying a relatively low level of motor tax is driving a brand new 320D as certain people would like everyone to believe.
At this stage were in year 5 of the new system. Plenty of cheap cars in that bracket.

Wait till baldy gets his hands on the so called "new system" next week - where will all the 320/520Ds be then?

larchill

larchill wrote: »

Wait till baldy gets his hands on the so called "new system" next week - where will all the 320/520Ds be then?

.... Approaching a more appropriate motor tax rate imo.

I'm sure I remember you mentioning taxing some car or other at some stage, so your not in the group I referrred to as who don't pay motor tax. Either way I stand over my views

awec

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unkel

Saab Ed wrote: »

ANPR me hole. Far too many cases of women and kids being left on the side of the road because the computer says noooo

Are you saying many women and children are being left on the side of the road, while their car is actually showing a valid motor tax disk? If so, I call BS

Voodoomelon

RoverJames wrote: »

Going over old ground
I believe the vast majority of people do tax their cars and will continue to do so. The vast majority won't find the increase a huge burden and the minority who won't now pay are a drop in the ocean. The government have no regard for the minority of motorists with motor tax rates over a grand on the cc system and there's less of them on the emissions system. As long as the average Joe stumps up the extra percent on the 250 to 700 he's already paying and most others on the higher to tax stuff do too which I think will than the result is increased revenue
Most people who don't pay motor tax won't regardless of any increases or decreases, imo they're analgous to folk who buy rip off DVDs, smuggled cigarettes etc etc or the muck savage who has never taxed his 1.3 corolla

I reckon you're probably right. For every mouth harping on about pushing them over the edge and that it was the last straw, there's 50 others who will grumble and pay it anyways.

awec

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listermint

awec wrote: »

When you bought your car you knew how much the tax on it was. If you don't like the rate of tax applicable to it why did you buy it?

People who don't pay tax are in the same boat as people who buy knock off DVDs etc. They are screwing someone out of money. Why should people pay their tax when you have these individuals driving around that think motor tax doesn't apply to them.

I don't think it's fair that some people pay a larger proportion of their salary in income tax than others, but that's the way it is.

You have yet to answer for a clearly fairer Tax System that accommodates the revenue that the government will expect.

Do you have any legitimate ideas on this rather than saying you knew the price of tax when you got the car.. crap.

Stheno

awec wrote: »

But you can't implement it for all cars. This is the point. One that is conveniently ignored for some peculiar reason.

The same reason the government can't turn round tomorrow and say "anyone who went to college in the past 20 years must pay us back your tuition fees of 3000 euro per year".

If at the pumps ever comes in, it will be the same as the post 08 system, with all cars registered from a certain date forward being applicable to the system only. It has to be a phased rollout, same as the post-08 system. In 10 years time there'll be very few people on the old system. This is the only fair way to do it. All sweeping changes like that are phased in in such a way. If the government change VAT they don't say "it applies to every purchase ever made". It's a "as of date x/y/z, VAT will be at a rate of y%".

Nobody expected the low rates to last forever but that doesn't mean you can make sweeping changes to the entire system. They are free to increase the rate within the current system, but not entirely change the system which would result in massive changes in peoples tax outgoings. They aren't going to change the lowest band from 160 euro a year to 500 euro a year because they know that there is no possible way that can be spun as "fair". At the same time they aren't going to increase tax of 1000 a year to 1800 a year, because again there is no possible way that is fair.

They CAN however say "as of July 2013, anyone buying a BMW must pay 2000 euro in tax", because anyone who buys a BMW in July 2013 will be aware of this before they purchase it.

I'm also going to ignore the ridiculous and patronising "doing our part" crap in your post.

I don't see the problem here?

The government know the total amount of tax revenue generated by the current two tier system.

They could use industry figures to get average petrol/diesel sales over a period of time, then simply apply a charge for each litre of petrol to generate an equivalent amount of revenue compared to the current system.

Set a date for it to be implemented e.g. 01/01/13 and the tax office can issue refunds to anyone who has tax discs valid into 2013?

awec

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awec

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Stheno

awec wrote: »

You don't see the problem here?

So if the government said tomorrow that cc tax is gone and all cars currently on the cc system are being switched to a flat rate tax of 1000 euro you don't see the problem there?

The problem is not the overall amount raised, but the variation on any single individual.

But that wouldn't be the case, the amount of tax would be based on fuel usage, so it would be dependant on each individual drivers fuel usage, no one could say how much it would be on average given that mileage is variable.

I think it is an inherently fairer system than the current one.

awec

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Stheno

awec wrote: »

But it isn't.

I'll say again. Imagine you commute to work. Imagine you earn a low income. Imagine you bought a car in 2008 because you realised you could afford 200 euro a year max car tax.

Imagine the government say tomorrow that they are changing tax across the board to miles based. Your tax bill is going from 200 a year to 1000 a year and there is nothing you could do about it.

How do you propose that is fair?

The system in theory is fairer, but it can only be rolled out in the same way as the CO2 system. All cars bought after a certain date are applicable for it. It cannot be rolled out across all cars, certainly not in any way that could be described as "fair".

It's fair imo as it applies across the board to everyone regardless of the age/co2 emissions of the cars being driven.

awec

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dgt

awec wrote: »

But it isn't.

I'll say again. Imagine you commute to work. Imagine you earn a low income. Imagine you bought a car in 2008 because you realised you could afford 200 euro a year max car tax.

Imagine the government say tomorrow that they are changing tax across the board to miles based. Your tax bill is going from 200 a year to 1000 a year and there is nothing you could do about it.

How do you propose that is fair?

The system in theory is fairer, but it can only be rolled out in the same way as the CO2 system. All cars bought after a certain date are applicable for it. It cannot be rolled out across all cars, certainly not in any way that could be described as "fair". If nobody in Ireland currently owned a car then sure, it would be the way to go. But people have budgeted on being taxed on either their cc or their CO2, you cannot just change it.

I am not against the system, the idea of applying it to all cars on the road is totally unfair and will never happen and that's something that is being constantly overlooked on here.

Aren't all cars on the road meant to pay motor tax anyway? As in you use the road, you must pay some sort of tax?

Don't worry, I'm not someone who complains about taxing the car

awec

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listermint

awec wrote: »

I'm banging my head against the desk here...

The system itself is fairer. Applied to cars bought after a certain date in future then yes, it's fair. If nobody in Ireland currently owned a car then yes, it's fair.

Applying it to cars already on the road cannot be described as fair in any way, shape or form.

Tell me this.

Say they announce tomorrow that any irish student who attended university had to pay back 3000 euro for each year of college they attended. This system therefore applies across the board to all students no matter what college they went to.

If you went to college from 2000-2004 would you give them a cheque for 12 grand and say "hello sir, this is totally fair because it applies to all students".

This proposal is EXACTLY the same as that, except with lower amounts of money involved. And for that reason, it will never happen.

Im not sure what you are saying tbh, when i bought my car the tax was i think 1600 its now 83 Euro or something dearer. So who applied that tax to my car 'that is already on the road'

Was that tax increase based on the fact that we now had a incredibly low tax take from what is now seen as an incredibly shorted sighted taxation system ?

Yes it was.

And yes you do have to offer an alternate that is what discussions are about you cant just go around saying dont apply to cars on the road when its quite clear that cars on the road pre 08 are being hit because cars on the road post 08 have a short sighted and ill thought out revenue stream.

awec

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listermint

awec wrote: »

Are you for real? Your tax went up by a % WITHIN THE CURRENT SYSTEM! What part of this don't you get?! Your tax system has not changed which would significantly change the amount of motor tax you are paying!

I am not against the idea of tax at the pumps. I am saying it is unfair to apply it to cars currently registered!

Okay then apply a percentage to the existing lower base system and stop eating into older vehicles. Its clear that they are eating into older vehicle to replace lost revenue from newer vehicles take the percentage out of that.

Are you for real?

Tax petrol = fair.


easy.




How is it not fair to apply tax to petrol to all vehicles ? how ? They did it in poland years ago. Wiped the slate and applied it to petrol.

MetzgerMeister

awec wrote: »

Are you for real? Your tax went up by a % WITHIN THE CURRENT SYSTEM! What part of this don't you get?! Your tax system has not changed which would significantly change the amount of motor tax you are paying! The rate you pay has increased slightly but you are still taxed based on your cc or your CO2!

I am not against the idea of tax at the pumps. I am saying it is unfair to apply it to cars currently registered!

Of course tax rates are going to increase, but they will increase within the system the car is currently registered on. I have not said otherwise.

The current system changes every year that the government want more money. Listermint's point about the tax on his car increasing during his ownership is a very valid one and your point about "within the current system" is a bit ridiculous to be honest.

awec

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awec

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Dr.Rieux

awec wrote: »

Tell me this.

Say they announce tomorrow that any irish student who attended university had to pay back 3000 euro for each year of college they attended. This system therefore applies across the board to all students no matter what college they went to.

If you went to college from 2000-2004 would you give them a cheque for 12 grand and say "hello sir, this is totally fair because it applies to all students".

This proposal is EXACTLY the same as that, except with lower amounts of money involved. And for that reason, it will never happen.

That proposal is entirely different, that's the equivalent of refunding all the motor tax and applying it retrospectively on the amount of fuel they used over the lifetime of the car.

Using the college fees analogy it's like saying to everyone starting college or currently in college that the fees are shooting up. For me the cost per year from 1st to 4th was 825, 925, 1500, 1500. So from 2nd to 3rd year there was a jump of 62%. So it's already been done.

I'm all for putting motor tax on petrol because it makes sense, though I suspect I may actually end up paying more. But at least I would know that I use my car more than someone, I pay more. Similar to I earn more than someone, I pay more tax than them.

listermint

awec wrote: »

I think you're deliberately missing the point. This is unbelievable. :pac:

They WILL apply a percentage to the lower base system. FFS! Do you think the 160 tax rate is going to stay at 160?!

I have not said tax petrol = unfair. I have said it's unfair to apply it to all cars currently on the road. I have said this numerous times. You have either ignored, or not understood this numerous times.

But how is it unfair, other 'european' states have wiped the slate clean and come up with an ACROSS THE BOARD fairer solution.

Irregardless of you're semantics. I never signed up for effectively subsidising newer vehicles.

awec

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Dr.Rieux

awec wrote: »

No it isn't. It's exactly the same.

How? Because saying that your college analogy is exactly the same would require everyone to pay the tax on their fuel backdated to when it was new. This is wiping the slate clean from some defined cut off date and now charging the tax on fuel.

listermint

awec wrote: »

No it isn't. It's exactly the same.

HA you literally disregarded is VERY valid point on college fees.


Literally disregarded the whole thing because it didnt fit the nonsense.

awec

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MetzgerMeister

awec wrote: »

No it doesn't.

I will bet you 100 euro right now that you are still on the same tax system as when you bought the car. Were you on CC or CO2 when you bought the car, and are you on CC or CO2 right now?

There is a difference between the % within the system changing and the system changing entirely. To suggest otherwise is incredibly foolish.

I say this with regard to your point of "you knew the tax before you bought the car". This is irrelevant because as listermint said, when he bought his car, his tax was 1600. It then increased to 1683. Likewise with my last car, it went from 860 up to 945 and I didn't know that was going to happen at all.

To answer your question, my car is CC based and is €1390 and was when I bought it 2 months ago.

awec

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awec

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Our man in Havana

The way to implement it is as follows.

Tax at pumps starts on say Jan 1 2014. Cars will pay the old system tax until then, all discs expire on the 31-12-13. Then start the new system on a fresh slate.

awec

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Stheno

Our man in Havana wrote: »

The way to implement it is as follows.

Tax at pumps starts on say Jan 1 2014. Cars will pay the old system tax until then, all discs expire on the 31-12-13. Then start the new system on a fresh slate.

That's actually a good approach, takes the hassle of existing discs out and gives people a year to change their car if they need to e.g. get a more fuel efficient car etc.

dgt

awec wrote: »

I would say Jan 1 2014, and used cars will stay on their current system until ownership changes.

As in, after that date mentioned, old system still applies to current car as well as tax on pumps?

MetzgerMeister

awec wrote: »

So, you are on the same system. Look at that. Of course it's going to increase by a %, but you increased within the same system.

Imagine they changed your tax system to 500 euro per wheel tomorrow. Presumably you'd say "this is totally fair to change my tax system"?

What in the jaysus are you talking about a wheel tax for?! If it changed to tax on fuel it would be fair and still based on the same part of the car....the engine but with one huge difference, the more you drive, the more you pay.

It really really is as fvcking simple as that, you can nit pick all day but it won't make you right just like sitting in a garage all day won't make you a car

Chris_Heilong

There is an easy solution, you tell the public the system will be in effect in 2 years time, anyone taxing on the old system will be able to tax there car until a cut of date, after this cut of date the Tax at the pumps starts. Smooth transition.

Have a big campaign on TV bit like the switch over from analog to digital.

awec

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awec

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Chris_Heilong

awec wrote: »

I'm speaking hypothetically. If they announce tomorrow that you are instead taxed 500 euro per wheel do you think it's fair that they change your system like this?

If they gave him 2 years notice of their plans, then yes it is fair, using your example every one with a car will have 4 wheels so will be paying the same but we are talking about pumps and usage not wheels....

Green Diesel

awec wrote: »

I would say Jan 1 2014, and used cars will stay on their current system until ownership changes. On change of ownership, it changes to fuel based. Any remaining tax value on the old system can be claimed back. THAT is fair. Nobody can argue that is unfair. Anyone who buys a car will know what they are getting. Nobody is going to get slapped with taxes they weren't aware of when they made their purchase.

So there would be two rates at which to buy fuel? Sure everyone will be getting someone on the old system to fill up on the cheaper stuff to siphon into the newer cars.

Although I am against the idea, a tax on the fuel exclusively is probably the fairest method.

galwaytt

Saab Ed wrote: »

ANPR me hole. .....This is Ireland, we couldn't manage a good sh!te nevermind manage all this information

Ex-fugging-actly.

So ANPR will read this, will it ?



Zooming and adjusting the image does sweet F.A. for it either:



Never going to work. Period.

[edit]...actually, we've just hit on the cure for ANPR. No need for 'special' sprays, or reflective films for number plates. Just drive around Galway for 15 minutes......... [/edit]