Education in Ireland 11th best in world

summerskin

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356

The two education superpowers - Finland and South Korea - are followed by three other high-performing Asian education systems - Hong Kong, Japan and Singapore.
Continue reading the main story EDUCATION TOP 20

• Finland
• South Korea
• Hong Kong
• Japan
• Singapore
• UK
• Netherlands
• New Zealand
• Switzerland
• Canada
• Ireland
• Denmark
• Australia
• Poland
• Germany
• Belgium
• USA
• Hungary
• Slovakia
• Russia

The UK - which is considered as a single system, rather than four devolved administrations - is then ranked at the head of an above-average group including the Netherlands, New Zealand, Canada and Ireland.
These are ahead of a middle-ranking group including the United States, Germany and France.
At the lowest end are Mexico, Brazil and Indonesia.
These comparisons draw upon tests that are taken every three or four years, in areas such as maths, science and literacy - and so present a picture lagging by several years

Good to see Ireland's education system ranked among the top in the world, in an above-average group with the UK, Netherlands new Zealand and Canada, and above countries such as the USA, Germany and Australia

Now if only the education system everywhere was similar to that in Finland, the finest in the world for a reason.

Nice to see some positive news.

triple-M

summerskin wrote: »

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-20498356



Good to see Ireland's education system ranked among the top in the world, in an above-average group with the UK, Netherlands new Zealand and Canada, and above countries such as the USA, Germany and Australia

Now if only the education system everywhere was similar to that in Finland, the finest in the world for a reason.

Nice to see some positive news.

sorry whats the reason for finland being on top?just curious

Sauve

triple-M wrote: »

sorry whats the reason for finland being on top?just curious

Cos theyre the best maybe?
Its generally how these things work..

summerskin

triple-M wrote: »

sorry whats the reason for finland being on top?just curious

just do a google search for the Finnish education system, read the results and it becomes obvious.

seamus

triple-M wrote: »

sorry whats the reason for finland being on top?just curious

Back in the 70s or 80s, they tore the entire system apart and restarted. Finnish teachers have masters degrees at a minimum, but it's far more complicated than that. As said, have a quick google for it and you'll get the full story.

John Doe1

the fcuck it is:p

professore

Pffft - who put that survey together? For example, how can the UK be ahead of Germany, who produce clearly better people for their more successful economy? The UK has a terrible education system - maybe at 3rd level Oxbridge it's good but it's not good for the vast majority.

These things are highly subjective. I prefer to ask the MNC's here - the dearth of people with language skills is a testament to the failure of that aspect at least. My daughter asked her French teacher recently how to pronounce a particular word and the answer was "it doesn't matter for the Junior Cert." FFS !

BillyMitchel

I've worked in the Korean school system and I can see why they are right up there. The whole system was just spot on. Poor kids started at about 7 though and probably wouldn't finish till 9 at night. I know teachers here who couldn't tell you where Korea is!

LivelineDipso

Never believe these surveys. They are completely made up when you look into them.

Duckworth_Luas

BillyMitchel wrote: »

I know teachers here who couldn't tell you where Korea is!

Or even which Korea is the best Korea!

CardBordWindow

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=78081433
Conclusive proof that the survey is bull! :pac:

donvito99

We shouldn't be satisfied with 11th in the world, IMO.

Also, the UK has an abysmal education system if you ask me.

OneArt

The USA is higher than Russia?

REALLY?

summerskin

professore wrote: »

Pffft - who put that survey together? For example, how can the UK be ahead of Germany, who produce clearly better people for their more successful economy? The UK has a terrible education system - maybe at 3rd level Oxbridge it's good but it's not good for the vast majority.

These things are highly subjective. I prefer to ask the MNC's here - the dearth of people with language skills is a testament to the failure of that aspect at least. My daughter asked her French teacher recently how to pronounce a particular word and the answer was "it doesn't matter for the Junior Cert." FFS !

I take it you never went to school in the UK? Sure, there are some schools that are below par, usually in areas with a poor socio-economic background, but the same can be said of anywhere.

I went through the UK school system, learned foreign languages from the age of 7, played a wide variety of musical instruments, tried my hand at at least a dozen sports, learned a second foreign language, did my GCSEs, then my A-Levels (which are widely considered to be the equivalent of the first year of a degree course in Ireland, due to the fact that they are the specialised study of three subjects, rather than ten or eleven in the LC), and ultimately went on to gain an Honours degree from one of the top 100 universities in the world.

All from my home on a council estate in a town blighted by riots and decay. The access to a good education is there for anyone in the UK, it's what you make of it that matters. Same as here.

pickarooney

I don't really see how the Korean education system is healthy or enviable.

summerskin

donvito99 wrote: »

We shouldn't be satisfied with 11th in the world, IMO.

Also, the UK has an abysmal education system if you ask me.

please do explain. it may not be the best, but what makes it abysmal?

Treehorn

My arse.

Wacker The Attacker

go on the education

Wacker The Attacker

Treehorn wrote: »

My arse.

educate yo ass

MagicMarker

Im personaly not in the leest bit suprized by this, my edukasion was top noch.

Chuck Stone

professore wrote: »

Pffft - who put that survey together? For example, how can the UK be ahead of Germany, who produce clearly better people for their more successful economy?

Afaia Germany is still pretty big on apprenticeships coupled with plenty of good jobs in manufacturing which would mean less people educated to third level - although probably just as educated all-round.

Germany

The German economy ... is a leading exporter of machinery, vehicles, chemicals, and household equipment and benefits from a highly skilled labor force.

CIA World Factbook
_________________________________________________________

United Kingdom

Services, particularly banking, insurance, and business services, account by far for the largest proportion of GDP while industry continues to decline in importance.

CIA World Factbook

Drakares

World standard must be low. Ireland's education system is awful.

DamoKen

summerskin wrote: »

I take it you never went to school in the UK? Sure, there are some schools that are below par, usually in areas with a poor socio-economic background, but the same can be said of anywhere.

I went through the UK school system, learned foreign languages from the age of 7, played a wide variety of musical instruments, tried my hand at at least a dozen sports, learned a second foreign language, did my GCSEs, then my A-Levels (which are widely considered to be the equivalent of the first year of a degree course in Ireland, due to the fact that they are the specialised study of three subjects, rather than ten or eleven in the LC), and ultimately went on to gain an Honours degree from one of the top 100 universities in the world.

All from my home on a council estate in a town blighted by riots and decay. The access to a good education is there for anyone in the UK, it's what you make of it that matters. Same as here.

Ditto, girlfriend is from up North and all the above applies to her. The level of support for music in particular is phenomenal. What public school in the Rep would supply books let alone musical instruments to students? She learnt to play the cello to a degree where she toured with an orchestra, the cello was supplied by the school and was worth 1000's. On top of that she also by the time she did her A levels was a grade 7 on piano, all in a publicly funded school, and although always exceptional to me, was in no way an exception to the rule

Skid

The most recent PISA tables (ranking Maths skills in OECD Countries) tell a very different story


http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/students-ignorance-of-basic-maths-is-sum-of-all-our-fears-2457748.html

LAST week Ireland's educational image took another battering in the Performance International Student Assessment (PISA) 2009, a three-yearly global league table from the OECD. Ireland's scores in maths dipped since the last survey, from 16th to 25th among the 34 OECD countries.

Chuck Stone

summerskin wrote: »

A-Levels (which are widely considered to be the equivalent of the first year of a degree course in Ireland)

Absolute bollocks.

How many A-levels do you need for uni in the UK? 2/3?

Here a student does the equivalent of 6/7 A-levels to enter uni.

Also, many students who don't make it into uni here go to England where their points more than suffice for the equivalent degree.

summerskin

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Absolute bollocks.

How many A-levels do you need for uni in the UK? 2/3?

Here a student does the equivalent of 6/7 A-levels to enter uni.

Also, many students who don't make it into uni here go to England where their points more than suffice for the equivalent degree.

So how come when my wife was going to go back to Uni over here to study Economics she was told that she would not need to do the first year, as her A level was the equivalent of the first year's study? Also how come in my A level french and german we worked to a far higher level than my cousin from Ireland? He was closer to GCSE level than A level.

I'm not saying that A levels are perfect, I'd prefer a system more like the Baccalaureate. What they do, however, is prepare you to study a specialised subject over a period, to prepare you for a similar study pattern at university, something the LC does not do.

Regarding the points in bold:
LC subjects are studied in nowhere near the depth that A levels are.

As for point two, there are many many more universities in England, some of which accept lower standards (usually the ones which used to be polytechnics). The UK has far better universities than Ireland, so your point that if you fail to get in one here you can walk into one there is total shíte.

Kolido

BillyMitchel wrote: »

I've worked in the Korean school system and I can see why they are right up there. The whole system was just spot on. Poor kids started at about 7 though and probably wouldn't finish till 9 at night. I know teachers here who couldn't tell you where Korea is!

Are they at school for 2 or 14 hours?

If its there latter I'm glad I didnt grow up there. Can't be healthy spending half your day at school, some people have a life.

seven_eleven

Kolido wrote: »

Are they at school for 2 or 14 hours?

If its there latter I'm glad I didnt grow up there. Can't be healthy spending half your day at school, some people have a life.

It's the latter. I dont know about Korea but in Japan its very similar, where the workload is so high you're in school all hours, and have so much to know and do. If you dont perform up to the top standard you're not going to get into any decent colleges which really screws your future over for life. Suicide rate is extremely high due to the immense stress levels over there.

Ziphius

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Absolute bollocks.

How many A-levels do you need for uni in the UK? 2/3?

Here a student does the equivalent of 6/7 A-levels to enter uni.

Also, many students who don't make it into uni here go to England where their points more than suffice for the equivalent degree.

A Levels are worth more CAO points than leaving certificate subjects. For example A* is A level is 150 points while A1 in LC is 100 points. More details here:
https://myucd.ucd.ie/programme_info/alevel.ezc

Andy!!

Woohoo Im awesome, Im a teacher in Korea

Andy!!

Sauve wrote: »

Cos theyre the best maybe?
Its generally how these things work..

So witty, you must have come through the Irish system!

:pac:

pickarooney wrote: »

I don't really see how the Korean education system is healthy or enviable.

I really don't see anyone claiming that it is. (????)

Chuck Stone

summerskin wrote: »

So how come when my wife was going to go back to Uni over here to study Economics she was told that she would not need to do the first year, as her A level was the equivalent of the first year's study? Also how come in my A level french and german we worked to a far higher level than my cousin from Ireland? He was closer to GCSE level than A level.

How come Irish students who are educated closer to a 'GCSE level' breeze into Uni's in England while not attaining the points for similar degrees here?

What they do, however, is prepare you to study a specialised subject over a period, to prepare you for a similar study pattern at university, something the LC does not do.

They probably do prepare students for Uni, I know lots of students struggle with self-directed learning and referencing etc here, but that doesn't mean that a LC subject is worth ½ an A-level.

As for point two, there are many many more universities in England, some of which accept lower standards (usually the ones which used to be polytechnics).

Some of which? Don't you mean most of which?

The UK has far better universities than Ireland

At the upper tier that's absolutely true and to be expected (Oxford, Cambridge, Eton, UCLondon, Kings C.L.). But the average university in England/UK? I doubt there's a big difference if any.

Remember that Ireland has a population roughly equivalent to greater Manchester too so we're hardly comparing like with like as regards 'elite' Uni's.

so your point that if you fail to get in one here you can walk into one there is total shíte.

It's pretty standard actually.

Chuck Stone

Ziphius wrote: »

A Levels are worth more CAO points than leaving certificate subjects. For example A* is A level is 150 points while A1 in LC is 100 points. More details here:
https://myucd.ucd.ie/programme_info/alevel.ezc

So two LC subjects are roughly equivalent to 200 points and seeing as LC students have to study twice as many subjects as then that sounds about right.

Two 'half' A-levels i.e. LC subjects at top rate = 200 points

One full A-level = 150 points.

Would that mean that UK students would have to have 4 top end A-levels to do the highest point degrees here?

drquirky

I find it impossible to believe that an education system where students spend 13 years studying a dead and useless language for purely political reasons, are forced to attend a crazy amount of religion classes and take an outdated standardised test at the end of their studies is the 11th best in the world.

I wouldn't place a whole lot of stock in this study.

Ireland shouldn't be 11th apart from the fact that everyone can access it..

Looking back, it's mental really. Irish and French killed me in the Leaving and for what.. Never spoke a word of either yet I needed them to get to university. Such a waste of time.. Could have studied my core subjects to a much higher level instead.

summerskin

Chuck Stone wrote: »

How come Irish students who are educated closer to a 'GCSE level' breeze into Uni's in England while not attaining the points for similar degrees here?



They probably do prepare students for Uni, I know lots of students struggle with self-directed learning and referencing etc here, but that doesn't mean that a LC subject is worth ½ an A-level.



Some of which? Don't you mean most of which?



At the upper tier that's absolutely true and to be expected (Oxford, Cambridge, Eton, UCLondon, Kings C.L.). But the average university in England/UK? I doubt there's a big difference if any.

Remember that Ireland has a population roughly equivalent to greater Manchester too so we're hardly comparing like with like as regards 'elite' Uni's.



It's pretty standard actually.

There are 14 UK universities ranked higher or equal to Trinity, which is Ireland's highest, and 29 ranked higher than UCD, which Ireland's 2nd ranked. Seems to be quite a big difference really. For example, a degree from Sheffield(ranked 110), would hardly carry the prestige in England that a degree from your finest institution, Trinity, ranked 110 also, would carry in Ireland.

Iwasfrozen

If we removed Irish as a compulsory subject it would help push up our rank because we could concentrate the time on other areas.

Blisterman

The UK definitely has a box ticking culture when it comes to education, which I suspect explains their high ranking.

Sure, X% of students being above a certain level of reading and maths is a good thing, but that's not necessarily the sign of a good education. The ability to think critically, interact with people, find solutions to problems, are, in my opinion better signs of a good education, but unfortunately something that's difficult to quantify and compare.

It's interesting to see people referring to a level material being equivalent to 1st year uni and that's why it's better than LC. My own first year thphys in uni was easier than LC applied maths, definitely a good bit easier. I guess that's the same as an a level so??

Agree with the comments about us being 11th in conjunction with religion time >>>> science time and learning irish only? Nah

parc

summerskin wrote: »

There are 14 UK universities ranked higher or equal to Trinity, which is Ireland's highest, and 29 ranked higher than UCD, which Ireland's 2nd ranked. Seems to be quite a big difference really. For example, a degree from Sheffield(ranked 110), would hardly carry the prestige in England that a degree from your finest institution, Trinity, ranked 110 also, would carry in Ireland.

Yes but say you want to go and get a job anywhere really, a degree from Trinity will be more favourably looked upon than a degree from Sheffield.
The population and size of the UK economy are all factors that contribute to things like funding etc which play a part in rankings.

As for A level vs the Leaving. I'd imagine that the A levels are more detailed as you do less. That surely must be the case. Also degrees in Ireland are 4 years while in the UK they're 3 years. That's probably why that woman was allowed to bypass first year

Overall we have to study Maths to LC which I think has its merits over being able to drop it after GCSE like you can it the UK. However I think I'd prefer to sit A-levels than the LC. I like the Idea of 3 focused subjects but can also see the benefits of doing the 6 with Maths and English being compulsory

pickarooney

summerskin wrote: »

There are 14 UK universities ranked higher or equal to Trinity, which is Ireland's highest, and 29 ranked higher than UCD, which Ireland's 2nd ranked. Seems to be quite a big difference really. For example, a degree from Sheffield(ranked 110), would hardly carry the prestige in England that a degree from your finest institution, Trinity, ranked 110 also, would carry in Ireland.

I've never noticed anyone buying into the whole 'prestige' university thing in Ireland, at least not on a level that counts. Are there firms in Ireland who select graduates based on the college they attended, even unofficially?

steddyeddy

I'm delighted the Finish system has got recognition. The Finish system amongst other criteria in essence do not segregate children according to parental wealth like this country. Private schools really dont play a big part in education and in sending a high percentage on to further education.

In Finland even the schools that are considered private often are not allowed to take tuition fees from students. Their system would be described as egalitarian.

The only system that will ensure the best graduates is an egalitarian system imo. Many have said that everyone takes the same leaving cert and that is true. The leaving cert is invariable as a test. The help that students get eg private schools is not invariable. In fact it is dependent on nothing to do with the student themselves ie their parents wealth.

The only inequality in education should be between those that work hard and are intelligent and those who dont and are'nt.

The egalitarian system in Finland also teaches kids that money doesnt determine ones academic abiltiy. A trait that seems to be lost on some of the privately educated here.

Shenshen

After the argument I just had in the 29k income = poverty thread, I wonder if the lessons in maths are sufficient, to be honest.

That said, I sincerely hope that the government will not take these results as an excuse to sit back and relax about education for a decade or two, or possibly even cut funding further.

pickarooney

Does anyone know if there is any difference in exam results in boys and girls in Finland?

Blisterman

There's a load of university snobbery in the UK. You won't even get an interview in some firms there, unless you went to one of the top ranking ones.

Which is ridiculous really, since the rankings aren't really based around the standard of education. They're based on things like what percentage are in employment six months after graduation. Doesn't matter if it's working in Tesco or something related to your course, and dropout rate, where a high dropout rate counts against the university, even if it's due to the course being too tough for people.

Rochester

Given the length of the school day and the long holidays it is nothing short of a miracle that we are 11th

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

I'm delighted the Finish system has got recognition. The Finish system amongst other criteria in essence do not segregate children according to parental wealth like this country.

They don't stream them according to ability either afaik. Gifted children? too bad, they can wait for everyone else.

Shenshen

Rochester wrote: »

Given the length of the school day and the long holidays it is nothing short of a miracle that we are 11th

Compared to, say, Germany, with school days lasting from 8am to 1pm, and somewhere around 13 - 15 weeks holidays a year?

steddyeddy

bluewolf wrote: »

They don't stream them according to ability either. Gifted children? too bad, they can wait for everyone else.

Well by in large they're more progressive than we are. As regards gifted children I would say that theres not many systems in the world that can recognise genius. For example some kids may be gifted in the areas of maths but not in the use of langauge and vice versa. Their have been instances of people like that who didnt even pass their state exams yet define new mathematical proofs.

steddyeddy

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well by in large they're more progressive than we are. As regards gifted children I would say that theres not many systems in the world that can recognise genius. For example some kids may be gifted in the areas of maths but not in the use of langauge and vice versa. Their have been instances of people like that who didnt even pass their state exams yet define new mathematical proofs.

It's just irritating to see it hailed as the best thing ever and all the "this is the perfect system" type results on google, when that is still an issue.
The last time I read up on it, they were very very focused on classes being age based more than anything else, which I'm not big into.
I'm not denying they seem to do a great job, it's just one major issue that comes to mind.

Cool Mo D

bluewolf wrote: »

It's just irritating to see it hailed as the best thing ever and all the "this is the perfect system" type results on google, when that is still an issue.
The last time I read up on it, they were very very focused on classes being age based more than anything else, which I'm not big into.
I'm not denying they seem to do a great job, it's just one major issue that comes to mind.

Actually, I'm pretty sure they pair gifted and slightly weaker students up, so the better students help explain the material to the weaker ones. Since there's no better way of thoroughly understanding something than trying to explain it a few different ways to someone else, it's a pretty good way of doing it.