Education in Ireland 11th best in world

Cool Mo D

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Actually, I'm pretty sure they pair gifted and slightly weaker students up, so the better students help explain the material to the weaker ones. Since there's no better way of thoroughly understanding something than trying to explain it a few different ways to someone else, it's a pretty good way of doing it.

Yeah? Do you have any links? I'm genuinely curious, I can't find anything on google beyond general praise. Explaining to others is a good way of learning indeed, but if there's a big mismatch in ability, it doesn't always work too well. It also doesn't allow for the brightest students to be really challenged either with more advanced material. If they know the stuff inside out, going to school every day to teach kids who don't get it seems to miss the point.
Anyway I didn't mean to derail the whole thing...

professore

summerskin wrote: »

I take it you never went to school in the UK? Sure, there are some schools that are below par, usually in areas with a poor socio-economic background, but the same can be said of anywhere.

I went through the UK school system, learned foreign languages from the age of 7, played a wide variety of musical instruments, tried my hand at at least a dozen sports, learned a second foreign language, did my GCSEs, then my A-Levels (which are widely considered to be the equivalent of the first year of a degree course in Ireland, due to the fact that they are the specialised study of three subjects, rather than ten or eleven in the LC), and ultimately went on to gain an Honours degree from one of the top 100 universities in the world.

All from my home on a council estate in a town blighted by riots and decay. The access to a good education is there for anyone in the UK, it's what you make of it that matters. Same as here.

What foreign language did you learn? And could you speak it fluently after finishing A-levels (note it doesn't count if one of your parents was a native speaker).

Also the fact that you did 3 A-Levels in such detail means you only had a cursory knowledge of the other subjects you studied.

Wompa1

Is it just me or is there some info missing from the story. They allude to some of the aspects that make the countries education systems good but don't list all of the criteria used to judge across the board.

The level of graduation is a bit of a red herring, isn't it? That doesn't mean the country produces quality graduates.

Quality of Teachers? Is this based on their level of qualifications or the results of the students?

If the United States has the top third level institutions, what does that count towards. The story seems to be focused on colleges so surely those places have some of the top lecturers, graduates, research etc. Maybe I've completely misinterpreted the findings.

Finland and South Korea seem like good choices though from what I have read.

steddyeddy

bluewolf wrote: »

It's just irritating to see it hailed as the best thing ever and all the "this is the perfect system" type results on google, when that is still an issue.
The last time I read up on it, they were very very focused on classes being age based more than anything else, which I'm not big into.
I'm not denying they seem to do a great job, it's just one major issue that comes to mind.

Well yes I would agree that helping gifted children reach maximise their abilty is still a major issue. It's clearly not a perfect system so and I would say that most systems in the world are'nt conducive to the development of genius. Being more advanced in school is currently a handicap imho. Being advanced yet having to do the same tedious work as everyone else is torture.

steddyeddy

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Actually, I'm pretty sure they pair gifted and slightly weaker students up, so the better students help explain the material to the weaker ones. Since there's no better way of thoroughly understanding something than trying to explain it a few different ways to someone else, it's a pretty good way of doing it.

I'm going to sound elitest but I dont think gifted students should wasting time explaining things to the weaker ones. That's surely what the teacher should be doing.

pickarooney

Maybe they don't accept that there are gifted children and that with the same stimulation and encouragement all the children are capable of achieving high levels?

It's something I've often wondered about.

professore

summerskin wrote: »

There are 14 UK universities ranked higher or equal to Trinity, which is Ireland's highest, and 29 ranked higher than UCD, which Ireland's 2nd ranked. Seems to be quite a big difference really. For example, a degree from Sheffield(ranked 110), would hardly carry the prestige in England that a degree from your finest institution, Trinity, ranked 110 also, would carry in Ireland.

Considering the population of the UK is roughly 14 times the ROI, this is hardly surprising. So they are about equal on that score. There are good universities in both countries, with some excellent ones in the UK.

However my point is more about general primary and secondary education, I would rank Ireland above England and similar to Scotland for quality, but both are well below continental European standards. For example, when you learn a language over there, you can SPEAK it afterwards!!!!

I'm talking about the kind of education that will equip you for a job in today's high tech world, not for being a ballet dancer or trombone player, laudable as these things are.

steddyeddy

pickarooney wrote: »

Maybe they don't accept that there are gifted children and that with the same stimulation and encouragement all the children are capable of achieving high levels?

It's something I've often wondered about.

Maybe that's true and I would love to read some studies on it. I would think that their are individual examples of people who were and are gifted in some ways. Srinivasa Ramanujan springs to mind.

Duggys Housemate

The university rankings are a red herring.
1) the rankings are ranked by asking the top ranking university's to rank other university. This leads to a lot of back scratching.
2) this is a survey of 2nd level. The US is falling down the ranks of secondary schools while it's universities remain the worlds best. Apparently.

Duggys Housemate

professore wrote: »

Considering the population of the UK is roughly 14 times the ROI, this is hardly surprising. So they are about equal on that score. There are good universities in both countries, with some excellent ones in the UK.

However my point is more about general primary and secondary education, I would rank Ireland above England and similar to Scotland for quality, but both are well below continental European standards. For example, when you learn a language over there, you can SPEAK it afterwards!!!!

I'm talking about the kind of education that will equip you for a job in today's high tech world, not for being a ballet dancer or trombone player, laudable as these things are.

That's not what the report shows. We are ahead of Germany for instance.

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

Maybe they don't accept that there are gifted children and that with the same stimulation and encouragement all the children are capable of achieving high levels?

It's something I've often wondered about.

I think a lot of children are unrecognised and could do a lot more if they were stimulated properly instead of thrown into an age-class. Many pupils a family member taught could have been pushed up a fair bit.
I think a lot of mental blocks when it comes to maths, for example, are likely to be heavily psychological.

I don't think all abilities are equal or that they would all achieve exactly the same high levels, no, not at all.

Duggys Housemate

The thing that worries me is the continuous assessment system coming in - the US has that.

RobbieTheRobber

Its interesting to note that the 3 countries who top the chart for education, also have very high rates of suicide for economically adavanced countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/refreshTableAction.do?tab=table&plugin=1&pcode=tps00122&language=en

suomi

bluewolf wrote: »

They don't stream them according to ability either afaik. Gifted children? too bad, they can wait for everyone else.

They do actually. If a kid is considered smarter than the average, they can skip a year. Also, they tend to give the kids who have problems private classes and personal assistance so that the rest of the class can move forward, rather than waiting for someone.

StudentDad

Whatever the rankings, a huge plank in educational success is support for children at home at primary school level and up. No matter how good a school is or how good the teachers, if a child isn't given the support at home the job of the school authorities becomes incredibly difficult.

As the teacher of my 5 yr old said to my wife last night at the pt meeting, parents are part of the education process too. There are far too many parents who don't get that. Eastenders and Coronation St. seem to interest some parents more than ensuring their kids get the education they need.

SD

pickarooney

suomi wrote: »

They do actually. If a kid is considered smarter than the average, they can skip a year. Also, they tend to give the kids who have problems private classes and personal assistance so that the rest of the class can move forward, rather than waiting for someone.

I reckon streaming classes has a doubly-negative impact on the children put in the lower streams. Firstly, they're playing an impossible game of catch-up with little motivation and secondly they get used to the idea that they're not smart and so believe it.

pickarooney

pickarooney wrote: »

I reckon streaming classes has a doubly-negative impact on the children put in the lower streams. Firstly, they're playing an impossible game of catch-up with little motivation and secondly they get used to the idea that they're not smart and so believe it.

Well, that's based on the assumption again that they can catch up to the same level somehow, that they'll become the same as that person who can do all sorts of mad maths in their head without blinking if they only tried hard enough. What if they are in the same class as this person and expected to do as well but all the hard work and motivation isn't getting there? Won't they just start believing then they're not smart, and stop trying? Become demoralised and over-pressured for something they may just never achieve?
If there is a higher stream or extra class for people who say you know I can really handle all this no problem and want to do extra, I don't think that should be denied.
There's equally no point keeping someone in a lower stream if they're demonstrating they're beyond it and learning quickly, or telling them they're no good at it and should stop trying. I have equally no patience or tolerance for that carry on. Far too much of it going on.

steddyeddy

RobbieTheRobber wrote: »

Its interesting to note that the 3 countries who top the chart for education, also have very high rates of suicide for economically adavanced countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_rate
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/refreshTableAction.do?tab=table&plugin=1&pcode=tps00122&language=en

Well the happiness of a soceity is often linked to the disparity in wealth between richer and poorer in society. That effects both richer and poorer. Also with some countries the low level of light could play a part in depression levels.

suomi

pickarooney wrote: »

I reckon streaming classes has a doubly-negative impact on the children put in the lower streams. Firstly, they're playing an impossible game of catch-up with little motivation and secondly they get used to the idea that they're not smart and so believe it.

It would be pretty rare that they'd actually move someone to another class, they always try other things first, like a private class after school so they can get more personal help. And if that doesn't help, if the kid is badly dyslexic or they have some sort of behavior problems or something, then they would move them to another class, but not necessarily the lower year, it could be another class where there are others too who aren't doing very well in school. But that would be very rare, no one in any of my classes were ever moved. The teachers just slow down the pace a bit if someone is having problems and sometimes they'd bring in another teacher so they can give everyone more individual help.

kowloon

BillyMitchel wrote: »

I've worked in the Korean school system and I can see why they are right up there. The whole system was just spot on. Poor kids started at about 7 though and probably wouldn't finish till 9 at night. I know teachers here who couldn't tell you where Korea is!

I would have gone postal in a system like that.

pickarooney

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well the happiness of a soceity is often linked to the disparity in wealth between richer and poorer in society. That effects both richer and poorer. Also with some countries the low level of light could play a part in depression levels.

The whole gist of any article I've read lauding Finland's system is how egalitarian it all is, which should theoretically lead to a low disparity in income between the top and bottom earners. The light/weather is probably a big factor though.

LordSutch

donvito99 wrote: »

We shouldn't be satisfied with 11th in the world, IMO.

Also, the UK has an abysmal education system if you ask me.

Of course the UK system is split into four, so I'm not sure that the four education administrations are all abysmal.

steddyeddy

pickarooney wrote: »

The whole gist of any article I've read lauding Finland's system is how egalitarian it all is, which should theoretically lead to a low disparity in income between the top and bottom earners. The light/weather is probably a big factor though.

Yes I would postultae that the reasons for high suicide rates in Finland would be different than the reasons for high suicide rates in Japan.

jasonmcco

I spent my early years in the english school system and my secondary schooling in Ireland.

My experiences were great in both but then again i opted out of religion and irish language classes in Ireland and used the extra classes
for other more important subjects.

Do feel that it's a bit odd that students and schools must learn Irish(mandatory) when it's not a very useful language and the time could be better spent on say maths.

Also very strange schools must provide for 2.5 hrs of religious studies as opposed to only 1 hr of science. This is a requirement imposed by church and and govt. on the children of this nation and i think it is to the detriment of students.

Ireland should not be happy with 11th considering the pay teachers in ireland receive and the time off they enjoy compared to our european neighbours.

summerskin

professore wrote: »

What foreign language did you learn? And could you speak it fluently after finishing A-levels (note it doesn't count if one of your parents was a native speaker).

Also the fact that you did 3 A-Levels in such detail means you only had a cursory knowledge of the other subjects you studied.

I did French and German, spoke both to a level that let me live and work in each country, along with a level economics. My gcse subjects gave me a background in history, geog, maths, eng Lang, eng lit and physics, which enabled me to further my studies in those at a later date if I chose to.

jasonmcco

Also a reason why Ireland may be showing higher than it does is coz they include exam results for religion which are generally high.

Would be flabbergasted if Ireland performed so well in individual tables measuring success in maths and science subjects.

Duggys Housemate

summerskin wrote: »

I did French and German, spoke both to a level that let me live and work in each country, along with a level economics. My gcse subjects gave me a background in history, geog, maths, eng Lang, eng lit and physics, which enabled me to further my studies in those at a later date if I chose to.

But you didn't do all of those to a level approaching honours leaving cert.

Pretty sure these surveys are at age 15 which might explain why the uk does so well.

summerskin

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The thing that worries me is the continuous assessment system coming in - the US has that.

and at the same time, the UK is abolishing it.

jasonmcco

http://www.gotocollege.ie/Reading_maths_skills_of_Irish_students_show_alarming_fall.html

As i suspected Ireland fares badly in the most important subjects like reading,maths and science.

But don't be too upset coz we can say our prayers in irish when sitting in the European parliament and really impress them, wu hoo.

elefant

Ou of curiosity, how long ago was religion given more time in Irish secondary schools than Science?

Fairly sure that when I was in secondary school 6 or 7 years ago (a Catholic school always presided over by priests since its formation at that) we had 5+ hours of science per week, and 2 hours of religion (which involved studying Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism and other major world religions).

Duggys Housemate

jasonmcco wrote: »

Also a reason why Ireland may be showing higher than it does is coz they include exam results for religion which are generally high.

Would be flabbergasted if Ireland performed so well in individual tables measuring success in maths and science subjects.

Where did you get that balls?

We don't even examine religion in Ireland. These tests would hardly test Ireland in religion and then give all the other countries zero. As far as I know the tests are reading, maths and science.

Fratton Fred

Blisterman wrote: »

The UK definitely has a box ticking culture when it comes to education, which I suspect explains their high ranking.

Sure, X% of students being above a certain level of reading and maths is a good thing, but that's not necessarily the sign of a good education. The ability to think critically, interact with people, find solutions to problems, are, in my opinion better signs of a good education, but unfortunately something that's difficult to quantify and compare.

My wife has just completed a FETAC level six course. She learnt very little, other than to answer the questions. She worked hard, but learnt little.

She was awarded a distinction, as was everyone else in her class. It was the biggest box ticking exercise I have seen.

pickarooney wrote: »

I've never noticed anyone buying into the whole 'prestige' university thing in Ireland, at least not on a level that counts. Are there firms in Ireland who select graduates based on the college they attended, even unofficially?

then you haven't been near a law firm or bank. A student who goes to St Andrews or Blackrock and then goes to Trinity will walk in to a job in the legal or finance sector.

Blisterman wrote: »

There's a load of university snobbery in the UK. You won't even get an interview in some firms there, unless you went to one of the top ranking ones.

That's very true, although it probably applies more to the school than the university. The banking and finance sector are still heavily influenced by the old school tie. It is changing, but not rapidly.

jasonmcco

Getting rid of Irish and religion studies as mandatory would transform the Irish system and give students more confidence in their peers who they see as being stuck in the dark ages

We no longer need hedge school subjects.

Duggys Housemate

jasonmcco wrote: »

http://www.gotocollege.ie/Reading_maths_skills_of_Irish_students_show_alarming_fall.html

As i suspected Ireland fares badly in the most important subjects like reading,maths and science.

But don't be too upset coz we can say our prayers in irish when sitting in the European parliament and really impress them, wu hoo.

You are cherry picking reports. Even in the 2009 reports we did average in OECD countries, rather than above average. The total number of countries accessed was 65 up from 35 in previous reports so a drop from say 7 to 15 still maintains you in the top 20%.

And reading drops were due to lots of immigration at the time. In any case we were ahead of Germany and France in that report too.

Duggys Housemate

jasonmcco wrote: »

Getting rid of Irish and religion studies as mandatory would transform the Irish system and give students more confidence in their peers who they see as being stuck in the dark ages

We no longer need hedge school subjects.

Nonsense. We'd still be tested on other stuff.all your posts are misinformed cant.

kraggy

Rochester wrote: »

Given the length of the school day and the long holidays it is nothing short of a miracle that we are 11th

I teach in Seoul. I have also taught primary at home in Ireland.

The Korean school day is shorter.

The Korean school education system is unbelievably inefficient compared to the Irish one. The kids don't score well in Math and Science here in Korea because of the public school system. If they do score better, it's because they go to after school grind schools from a very early age. So, you have young kids going to Maths, English and other hagwons (the Korean word for grind school) until very late in the evening. They actually study next year's material in these private lessons. The amount of money parents are throwing at education is ridiculous in its ineffectivness. Also, the time spent in public school is poorly used. That's the system's fault rather than the parents' or students', however.

One of my students, who's in 6th grade is falling asleep in class every day. His mother sends him to numerous grinds every day. But then he's too tired to listen in class. I've asked him several times what time did he go to bed the night previously and he would often say 2a.m. The reason is, when he finishes school at 2.30, he then goes to hagwons until maybe as late as 9pm. Then he goes home, has to do his homework from public school and then must do his homework from the hagwons after that. So he gets to sleep very late.

The average hours sleep of high school students is about 3 hours per night. The pressure is immense as university places are scarce. The university you attend also has a profound effect on your path in life. It's that crucial.

Furthermore, here, there is virtually no Social Welfare system. You have to prove that nobody can provide for you and even then, you get about €200 per month if you have no job. Worse still, if a mother has 2 sons over the age of 21, she will not get dole at all as they will be expected to provide for her.

What are the results of all this pressure? Firstly, exremely immature kids who might be good at trigonometry, but can't tell you where they went camping at the weekend with their family because they don't know the basic geography of their own country. Too much emphasis is placed on Maths and Science.

They are extremely silly and immature in their behaviour compared to 6th class kids at home. They don't have that experience of hanging out on the estate and building relationships and developning interpersonal skills. They're too busy studying. They also have very little common sense. They cannot problem solve.

The worst result of all is that South Korea has the highest suicide rate of all in the OECD. 36 per 100,000 population kill themselves every year. 40 people in the country commit suicide every day. That's around 15,000 every year nationally. These huge numbers come mainly from 2 parts of the demographic, students, and pensioners.

I would hate to have grown up in this country. It's a tough life.

RobbieTheRobber

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well the happiness of a soceity is often linked to the disparity in wealth between richer and poorer in society. That effects both richer and poorer. Also with some countries the low level of light could play a part in depression levels.

The other scandanavian countries are not so affected by this in terms of suicide rates. They also dont feature quite so highly in the education rankings.

pickarooney wrote: »

The whole gist of any article I've read lauding Finland's system is how egalitarian it all is, which should theoretically lead to a low disparity in income between the top and bottom earners. The light/weather is probably a big factor though.

steddyeddy wrote: »

Yes I would postultae that the reasons for high suicide rates in Finland would be different than the reasons for high suicide rates in Japan.

And south Korea which does not suffer from light deficit similiar to Finland.

summerskin

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

But you didn't do all of those to a level approaching honours leaving cert.

Pretty sure these surveys are at age 15 which might explain why the uk does so well.

I'd argue that. Firstly the A levels are a higher standard than leaving cert. Also, GCSEs take up the last two years of a 5 years cycle. Secondary school in the UK takes 7 years of study, including A levels, in Ireland it takes 6. An extra year of second level education, which follows 7 years of primary education. More than is received in Ireland, also the school day is longer, and with less holidays.

The A levels are not perfect. I didn't study any of the subjects i chose for my a levels at uni. This thread was never meant to be about how ireland/the uk is better, it was pointing out that it's good that Ireland has ranked so highly.

jasonmcco

elefant wrote: »

Ou of curiosity, how long ago was religion given more time in Irish secondary schools than Science?

Fairly sure that when I was in secondary school 6 or 7 years ago (a Catholic school always presided over by priests since its formation at that) we had 5+ hours of science per week, and 2 hours of religion (which involved studying Catholicism, Islam, Buddhism and other major world religions).

Hate to question your wisdom but my son has 2hrs 40 minutes of religious studies as opposed to 2 hrs of science per week for his junior cert and science has 3 major fields of study(physics,biology and chemistry).

Also spends 2hrs 40 minutes in Irish class the same as he spends on maths.

We need to wake up coz we are falling behind and failing our children.

Parents are the ones responsible for this nobody else and need to give up some of their precious time and force government to remedy what is a farcial situation.

Duggys Housemate

jasonmcco wrote: »

Hate to question your wisdom but my son has 2hrs 40 minutes of religious studies as opposed to 2 hrs of science per week for his junior cert and science has 3 major fields of study(physics,biology and chemistry).

Also spends 2hrs 40 minutes in Irish class the same as he spends on maths.

We need to wake up coz we are falling behind and failing our children.

Parents are the ones responsible for this nobody else and need to give up some of their precious time and force government to remedy what is a farcial situation.

Are we falling behind? This report has us 5th in Europe behind Finland, Holland, Switzerland and the UK

karma_

jasonmcco wrote: »

Hate to question your wisdom but my son has 2hrs 40 minutes of religious studies as opposed to 2 hrs of science per week for his junior cert and science has 3 major fields of study(physics,biology and chemistry).

Also spends 2hrs 40 minutes in Irish class the same as he spends on maths.

We need to wake up coz we are falling behind and failing our children.

Parents are the ones responsible for this nobody else and need to give up some of their precious time and force government to remedy what is a farcial situation.

So with anecdotal evidence in hand you're just going to dismiss the study the OP referenced?

LOL.

jasonmcco

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Nonsense. We'd still be tested on other stuff.all your posts are misinformed cant.

http://www.gotocollege.ie/Reading_maths_skills_of_Irish_students_show_alarming_fall.html

Read it and weep or do you require it be posted as gaeilge before you give it due consideration.

steddyeddy

karma_ wrote: »

So with anecdotal evidence in hand you're just going to dismiss the study the OP referenced?

LOL.

Well he has a point. We do give to much time to teaching religion to kids as oppossed to science.

parc

Who the fcuk gets tested on religion? It not even an examination subject here

Although you definitely should not have to take religion if you don't want to

jasonmcco

karma_ wrote: »

So with anecdotal evidence in hand you're just going to dismiss the study the OP referenced?

LOL.

Finding it difficul to see where i dismissed study and maybe that says something about the level reached by you in reading.

Said we could improve if we didn't waste time on guttural irish and study of supernatural.

LordSutch

As long as Irish & Religious studies are retained as core subjects . . . . .

karma_

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well he has a point. We do give to much time to teaching religion to kids as oppossed to science.

I would love nothing more to see religion ditched from all schools, but he's saying that Ireland is falling behind because of that, when the evidence actually says otherwise. He really doesn't have a point at all.

jasonmcco

parc wrote: »

Who the fcuk gets tested on religion? It not even an examination subject here

Although you definitely should not have to take religion if you don't want to

Religion is an exam subject here in both junior and leaving cert.
Don't speak when ill informed please.

karma_

jasonmcco wrote: »

Finding it difficul to see where i dismissed study and maybe that says something about the level reached by you in reading.

Said we could improve if we didn't waste time on guttural irish and study of supernatural.

So you didn't say Ireland was falling behind and failing it's children?

au contraire -

We need to wake up coz we are falling behind and failing our children.

LordSutch

Maybe Irish should be dropped as a core/mandatory subject?

I mean what puropse does it practically serve to the vast bulk of the Irish population?