Education in Ireland 11th best in world

byhookorbycrook

Just a few points of information:
Peer tutoring IS used in primary anyhow, we do formal peer tutoring in maths and literacy.

Gifted/Eceptionally able children are not entitled to any extra supports in the Irish education system unless there are "twice excpetional"-are both exceptionally able and have say,dyspraxia.

There are no non-denominational schools in the Irish non-fee paying sector.

byhookorbycrook

fall wrote: »

Students who go to the Gaeltacht love it there but hate it in the classroom. I don't blame them.

This isn't true always, the growth of Gaelscoileanna proves that.

Madam_X

I'm just going to blurt out the Irish education system is sh1t and that that study is rubbish (having conducted no study myself) and say nothing whatsoever to back up that comment.

fall

Sorry I should clarify. I meant at senior cycle the content of the curriculum is generally hated. A gaelscoil shows the living language and is therefore like the Gaeltacht. Sixth year leaving certs learning notes does not reflect anything except you have a good memory.

gutenberg

summerskin wrote: »

So how come when my wife was going to go back to Uni over here to study Economics she was told that she would not need to do the first year, as her A level was the equivalent of the first year's study? Also how come in my A level french and german we worked to a far higher level than my cousin from Ireland? He was closer to GCSE level than A level.

I'm not saying that A levels are perfect, I'd prefer a system more like the Baccalaureate. What they do, however, is prepare you to study a specialised subject over a period, to prepare you for a similar study pattern at university, something the LC does not do.

Regarding the points in bold:
LC subjects are studied in nowhere near the depth that A levels are.

As for point two, there are many many more universities in England, some of which accept lower standards (usually the ones which used to be polytechnics). The UK has far better universities than Ireland, so your point that if you fail to get in one here you can walk into one there is total shíte.

There was a report done a few years ago which compared A-Levels & the LC for points conversion purposes I believe. The results were quite interesting. In chemistry, it was estimated that the LC course was equivalent to about 75%-80% of the A Level, with the A-Level syllabus not covering much more material, but having a higher level of questions in the actual exams. Then in English, even more interestingly, the LC Higher Level syllabus was equivalent to the full English Literature A-Level, both in terms of the content and in the difficulty of the exam questions and the ability required by students. Bear in mind then that every student does English (not always to Higher Level, I grant you) alongside 6 or 7 other subjects... I can't remember the third subject compared now, but the report is out there for sure.

I personally don't think the UK's education system is all that, to be honest. Reports from friends who are primary school teachers about the new changes to teaching methods & learning outcomes at the primary level (for example, the abandoning of teaching of spelling & formal instruction in handwriting) are rather alarming; in addition, the system fails a lot of students. The target of 5 'good' GCSEs always struck me as a shockingly low standard to aim at, and even then over half of students don't even achieve that!!! I agree that if you can get into a good school then you can achieve a lot, and of course good schools (the state ones that is, if you happen to win the postcode lottery) are open to all.

raymann

steddyeddy wrote: »

Why is religion given so much time in this day and age?

i feel the same about irish being compulsory. like religion for me its a relic of the past that shouldnt be forced down peoples throats because others deem it necessary.

fall

raymann wrote: »

i feel the same about irish being compulsory. like religion fo me its a relic of the past that shouldnt be forced down peoples throats because others deem it necessary.

But religion is part of our everyday. It is the study of world religion and culture. It is relevant to everyone and is important in creating tolerance in a multi cultural society. It is not a study of Catholicism

Marcusm

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Or even which Korea is the best Korea!

Or even which Korea is the better Korea.

fall

http://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=en&sc=ep&formAction=subject

Link to 2012 leaving cert religious exam. Sorry if the link doesn't work, I am relatively new to posting.
http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2012/LC220ALP000EV.pdf

Marcusm

pickarooney wrote: »

I've never noticed anyone buying into the whole 'prestige' university thing in Ireland, at least not on a level that counts. Are there firms in Ireland who select graduates based on the college they attended, even unofficially?

Absolutely, particularly large professional firms (accountants and lawyers) and have been doing so for more than 20 years.

Icepick

flawed study

The rankings combine international test results and data such as graduation rates between 2006 and 2010.

international test results = only taken by selected best students
graduation rates = depend on graduation requirements

I mean Hungary 19th? lol

Greentopia

fall wrote: »

In our school that is exactly how it is done. The main religion teacher is also a chaplain and trained in Mater Dei. They have great debates and everyone is entitled to their own view. Have a look at last years leaving cert religion exam on examinations.ie. It is a religion exam not a Catholic exam. Ironically if this subject was taught correctly it is an excellent opportunity for critical thinking to occur.

Glad to hear it. It's a step in the right direction but I didn't see a word written about or acknowledging irreligiosity in the exam papers. And Mater Dei has a clear Catholic ethos. But yes, it's an improvement on what I remember in school.

Sorry, getting OT.

fall

Greentopia wrote: »

Glad to hear it. It's a step in the right direction but I didn't see a word written about or acknowledging irreligiosity in the exam papers. And Mater Dei has a clear Catholic ethos. But yes, it's an improvement on what I remember in school.

Sorry, getting OT.

It's the fact that she is a Mater Dei graduate and yet embraces a students right to believe or not believe that gives me hope. She escaped indoctrination. There is a long way to go but the good people on the ground who really believe in education embrace diversity and encourage discussion and debate.
And sorry for going off topic too

sock puppet

Marcusm wrote: »

Absolutely, particularly large professional firms (accountants and lawyers) and have been doing so for more than 20 years.

I've done the whole milkround thing this year and have met people from NUIG, UL, Queens, UCC, DCU and DIT at interviews. I doubt they were interviewed for the craic.

FISMA

Thank God for the Finish educational system.

It's because of them that we have products like:rolleyes:?

Hmmmm, can't really think of one...

Chuck Stone

fall wrote: »

http://www.examinations.ie/index.php?l=en&mc=en&sc=ep&formAction=subject

Link to 2012 leaving cert religious exam. Sorry if the link doesn't work, I am relatively new to posting.
http://www.examinations.ie/archive/exampapers/2012/LC220ALP000EV.pdf

★★★☆

4/5.

Well done.

hairyprincess

In my years in primary and secondary school, I would have had approximately twenty five teachers, out of that twenty five, only one of them had the ability to explain things and capture the students minds. She was, and still is an amazing teacher.

My daughter has had four teachers so far, and one of them is outstanding. Hopefully, as she is in primary school still, that teachers efforts and influence will remain with her through secondary school.

Duckworth_Luas

Marcusm wrote: »

Or even which Korea is the better Korea.

Kim Jong Un not care which better, only which best! Re-education camp for you!

Alessandra

I've read about the amazing results of the Finnish model. It's a very remarkable system.

Having had teaching experience in the Irish and UK primary system, I can say with little hesitation that the education offered in the UK is much more progressive. There is a lot more scope for children to engage and interact more in their learning. Ireland is still very much "open your books and turn to page 23" which is fine in some contexts. However this is not ideal for less able and SEN children or indeed Kinaesthetic learners. There is variety in the curriculum with languages and design and technology available from an early age.

Cian92

I actually quite like the Irish system, yes there has been too much of a focus on religion but I went to catholic school for a reason.

I don't think the Finnish system would work in Ireland 95% of those living in Finland are Finnish. The teachers are required to have masters, where we are going down the route that you can do do a post graduate teaching course online :rolleyes:

I found that many of the newer teachers I had were not as well trained as the older teachers who were generally wiser and much better. I had some spectacular teachers in my time in school.

Finnish students don't always start school at the same time depending on their timetable, how is one meant to get to school at midday if you don't live near to the school?

I like the way we have a very broad education covering many different subjects but still making subjects such as English and Maths compulsory.

I also liked the way that we had two big state exams, the Leaving Cert is a very good exam. If one wants to do very good they will have to work hard and put in long hours, it is a real test of hard work. It is fair on everybody.

Maybe the current system is not fit for those with special needs or those at risk of dropping out, or those who would be described as being "good with their hands". It is not ideal for the highly intelligent either and is becoming less so with a drift away from the streaming of students.

suomi

Cian92 wrote: »

Finnish students don't always start school at the same time depending on their timetable, how is one meant to get to school at midday if you don't live near to the school?

If you live far away from the school and your parents can't bring you, the school has to arrange a bus or a taxi to pick you up. Usually if there are several kids living in the same area, they all get the same bus or taxi to school. No one goes to school at midday though, most days it starts at 8 or 9.

pickarooney

wonton wrote: »

but finland are somewhat similar, and they are number one, scandanavia has the highest standard of english as a second language in the world,so even though everyone could speak english to each other, finnish people still have to learn swedish just because it used to rule the country.

most finns hate it, and are fairly bad at it actually.

It's hardly comparable. Swedish is by no means a dead language and a sizeable portion of Finnish nationals speak Swedish as a first language.

Greentopia wrote: »

Interesting. This is in all Catholic schools? equal weight and time is given to the study of all world religions (and major alternative/nature/quasi religious beliefs like Wicca, Paganism, Pantheism, Deism etc. as well as none!-agnosticism, atheism)? is there genuine critical analysis, dialogue and discussion allowed where students are allowed to openly disagree with and criticise the tenets of Catholicism, or indeed any religion-if they so feel? I as an atheist since my school days could now stand up in class and be openly critical about the litany of abuses, human rights violations and whatever else I feel is wrong within that church without any kind of censure or recriminations? or would I just have to keep my mouth shut like I did when I was in school-because if so that's not progress.

Do please correct me if I'm wrong but I find it hard to believe a teacher (at least a nominally Catholic one anyway in a Catholic school) would be ok with me doing that.

I doubt many teachers would be OK with some uppity teenager disrupting his history class to decry the atrocities perpetrated by all the main political actors covered by the course either.

yermandan

I know this isnt the point of the thread but WTF is my €142.40 per month on The Universal Social Charge going towards??!!!

Bluebell primary school asking parents to put extra clothes on their kids coz they can't afford heating? My blood boiling is keeping me warm (source : Newstalk Breakfast interviewed the principle this morning)

fall

But a good teacher will know the difference between a student just making a comment to cause a laugh or disruption and will handle it accordingly. Generally if there is a respectful relationship students will value being able to express an opinion and won't abuse it.

Ziphius

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Would that mean that UK students would have to have 4 top end A-levels to do the highest point degrees here?

Yes, usually. Most English students in Trinity had taken four subjects at A level, for example.

summerskin

Ziphius wrote: »

Yes, usually. Most English students in Trinity had taken four subjects at A level, for example.

most people take 4 a levels, general studies being one. we just don't mention that on CVs etc, though the points are valid for entry to universities here or the UK.

Ziphius

summerskin wrote: »

most people take 4 a levels, general studies being one. we just don't mention that on CVs etc, though the points are valid for entry to universities here or the UK.

Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Are the CAO points for general studies the same as for other A-levels. Which would give Leaving Certificate and A-Levels the same maximum points of 600.

summerskin

Ziphius wrote: »

Oh, okay. I didn't know that. Are the CAO points for general studies the same as for other A-levels. Which would give Leaving Certificate and A-Levels the same maximum points of 600.

they are for studying in ireland
A2
Points

AS

Points

A*
150


A
135

a

65

B
120

b

60

C
100

c

50

D
75

d

35

E
40

e

20

for example i got 2 As(there were no A* when i studied over 20 years ago, so A carried 150 points) and 2 Bs so would have 570 points from my a levels(b used to be 135).

Ziphius

According to TCD matriculation requirements the General Studies A level is
not accepted. http://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/undergraduate/requirements/matriculation/gcse/

All other A-levels are. With CAO points worth approx 50% more than their leaving certificate equivalents.

So for Trinity, at least, A-levels students would often need to take four A levels (excluding general studies).

summerskin

Ziphius wrote: »

According to TCD matriculation requirements the General Studies A level is
not accepted. http://www.tcd.ie/Admissions/undergraduate/requirements/matriculation/gcse/

All other A-levels are. With CAO points worth approx 50% more than their leaving certificate equivalents.

So for Trinity, at least, A-levels students would often need to take four A levels (excluding general studies).

I stand corrected.

jasonmcco

sock puppet wrote: »

Some people in the UK can be a bit snobby about universities though. The "prestige" of Trinity is a lot more beneficial in the UK than Ireland imo.



Personally I'm not sure programming is really that suitable a course for the Leaving Cert in its current form. Programming isn't something you learn in a classroom and written exams are a nightmare.

As you said your not really sure.

jasonmcco

gutenberg wrote: »

There was a report done a few years ago which compared A-Levels & the LC for points conversion purposes I believe. The results were quite interesting. In chemistry, it was estimated that the LC course was equivalent to about 75%-80% of the A Level, with the A-Level syllabus not covering much more material, but having a higher level of questions in the actual exams. Then in English, even more interestingly, the LC Higher Level syllabus was equivalent to the full English Literature A-Level, both in terms of the content and in the difficulty of the exam questions and the ability required by students. Bear in mind then that every student does English (not always to Higher Level, I grant you) alongside 6 or 7 other subjects... I can't remember the third subject compared now, but the report is out there for sure.

I personally don't think the UK's education system is all that, to be honest. Reports from friends who are primary school teachers about the new changes to teaching methods & learning outcomes at the primary level (for example, the abandoning of teaching of spelling & formal instruction in handwriting) are rather alarming; in addition, the system fails a lot of students. The target of 5 'good' GCSEs always struck me as a shockingly low standard to aim at, and even then over half of students don't even achieve that!!! I agree that if you can get into a good school then you can achieve a lot, and of course good schools (the state ones that is, if you happen to win the postcode lottery) are open to all.

Any studies i have looked at show england ahead of us so if you can find one that doesn't please post and don't quote your friends coz that doesn't count.

gutenberg

jasonmcco wrote: »

Any studies i have looked at show england ahead of us so if you can find one that doesn't please post and don't quote your friends coz that doesn't count.

Care to share those studies yourself since you seem so interested? The most recent PISA rankings (measured among 15 year olds I think?) put us ahead of the UK, with Denmark & France in between: http://www.oecd.org/pisa/46643496.pdf.

As for secondary schooling, the statistics on GCSEs can be found on the DfE website: the most recent set of statistics show that 55% of students attain the 'benchmark' of 5 good GSCEs at grade A*-C, including English & Maths.

byhookorbycrook

Not sure programming is a skill that will be of use, by the time the secondary students get out in the world. We spent 3 years learning Cobol
in secondary...:D

Edited to add:I teach "Scratch" to primary kids, but more from the point of view of learning how to use the computer and problem solving, challenging exceptionally able kids and peer learning.