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'Airtightness'-Problem with window company
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27-11-2012 12:19pm#1Hi,
Coming into this section as this problem has got so technical.
In as short as I can; with help from Boards, we self-built a house with high specs, U values, airtightness detail, HRV etc.
Where we fell down: went with a large window manafacturer, bought triple glazed windows and doors. While I checked out certifications and reports on U values etc (having heard some negative reports on this company) I didn't look into 'airtightness' beyond making sure the windows were installed correctly.
And yes, now the windows have 'failed' 3 BER assessments - leaking air through the casements. And of course the company is denying anything is wrong, telling me the BER assessor's (which they paid for, after windows failed first BER) comments are subjective (windows 'failed') and that they have fulfilled all their obligations by complying with Part L of building regs. (!!)
I have been on to everyone I can think of at this stage and what it seems to be boiling down to is that if I cannot find any specific numbers as to what the windows should be complying to, (which i can't) I haven't a leg to stand on.
I'm fit to be tied at this stage. I had held back half their payment when the windows were first installed (badly) and this is what they are now chasing me for, with me holding the money back until I have airtight windows...
If I haven't lost everyone by now, does anyone have any ideas on what I can do/where i can go with this at this stage??
(I know I haven't gone into finer details but didn't want to lose the run of myself altogether. If anyone wants to know, I'm happy to fill in the gaps!)0
Comments
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Do you mean that in air permeability motorised fan tests of the whole house that high leakage was detected at the window casements ?
Windows "failing a BER test" does not make sense ( with respect ).0 -
Need a lot more info on exactly what tests were done on the windows and by whom. If airtightness test was done then what was the result and were the problem casement windows then temporarily sealed and house retested to find out their impact?
While there may be no published pass / fail spec on window airtightness, if the casements are very leaky, you may have an argument on "fitness for purpose" as air leaks may give rise to water leaks depending on leak positions / orientations /driving rain etc.
But as SB said wrt failing the BER test, no sense!0 -
SB
Yes. (Apologies. I'm not seeing the woods for the trees anymore.:o)Do you mean that in air permeability motorised fan tests of the whole house that high leakage was detected at the window casements ?
The house was assessed 3 times in all by a BER assessor. 1st assessment was a general one, before plastering etc. 2nd+3rd tests were specifically to test the windows for airtightness, when build was finished. From the report:" House was put under negative air pressure at 50 pascals m3/h/m2. A smoke pen and infrared camera were used in order to identify anomalies...A number of window frames showed signs of air infiltration...On windows that showed signs of air ingress the service engineer applied Vaseline to the seals and or tightened the hinges. The windows were then retested. In the majority of cases the windows failed again."
At this stage, what I understand is that the window air infiltration can be specifically measured but it's expensive and because I have no literature from the company stating that the windows will have "zero air permeability" (my understanding of all this) I'm told I haven't got a leg to stand on.
(Now, I do have what I thought was a BFRC report which to me looks like it states air permeability at 50pa is 0.00 but when I sent this on to an engineer he told me it was a "Simulator's assessment of the window assembly, and as such, it is a simulated result created by a software" and therefore no use.)
Look, I'm a joe soap at all this. Not qualified in any of these areas and no experience beyond the (vast!) amount learned on the way here but I saw the windows leaking air when tested, can feel it in winter and am pretty frustrated with the company at this stage.0 -
selfbuildache wrote: »SB
At this stage, what I understand is that the window air infiltration can be specifically measured but it's expensive and because I have no literature from the company stating that the windows will have "zero air permeability" (my understanding of all this) I'm told I haven't got a leg to stand on.
(Now, I do have what I thought was a BFRC report which to me looks like it states air permeability at 50pa is 0.00 but when I sent this on to an engineer he told me it was a "Simulator's assessment of the window assembly, and as such, it is a simulated result created by a software" and therefore no use.)
Look, I'm a joe soap at all this. Not qualified in any of these areas and no experience beyond the (vast!) amount learned on the way here but I saw the windows leaking air when tested, can feel it in winter and am pretty frustrated with the company at this stage.
Bear in mind that virtually all windows will have some air leakage particularly at higher pressure differentials, but at 50Pa I would expect close to zero measured leakage. Drafts are simply not acceptable so as noted above its questionable they are fit for purpose.
If you have a BFRC report (or the NSAI WER equivalent) for the window then an airtightness test will have been carried out for that window system so I would ask the manufacturer to supply it. Bear in mind that the BFRC system is not the most sophisticated specification tool - its about as much use as the energy labels on a fridge - and was designed specifically for replacement windows.
The BFRC calculation will take an actual airtightness test result at 50Pa and divide it by 20 (so virtually any rated window has a nominal zero air leakage rate).
Given that a service engineer has attended and adjusted the units it can be reasonably assumed the windows are fitted properly (or he is not doing his job properly).
Ensure that the report is for the window system you bought and not for another window they supply. If it shows the windows have been classified Class 3 or 4 (to EN12207) which I'd fully expect, you would want to ask the manufacturer to explain why you are getting drafts. Also ask for the door test results.
Until the issue is rectified I can't see any justification for paying the balance of the account. You might consider putting the supplier on notice that unless they rectify the windows you will have the windows replaced and hold them liable for all costs involved but please take legal advice before going down that road.
I know in your situation its a bit late but specifiers really should insist on third party certification for windows & doors.0 -
selfbuildache wrote: »Look, I'm a joe soap at all this...... but I saw the windows leaking air when tested, can feel it in winter and am pretty frustrated with the company at this stage.
Write to them in these terms. Don't get technical because they can then bury you ( with all respect ). Insist in very simple and polite language that the windows plainly need snagging adjustments as they are drafty and that you want only them to fix it so as not to affect any warranty. And ask them how they can expect a customer to pay up in such circumstances.
And hope that works.0 -
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Write to them in these terms. Don't get technical because they can then bury you ( with all respect ). Insist in very simple and polite language that the windows plainly need snagging adjustments as they are drafty and that you want only them to fix it so as not to affect any warranty. And ask them how they can expect a customer to pay up in such circumstances.
And hope that works.
I've tried both a plain-&-simple languaged approach and more formal approaches. Replies have been the same - ignoring what I've said and just asking for their money in increasingly stronger terms.
fatty pang
While they have NSAI logos on all their literature, these logos are to do with management (or something?) but not the quality of their windows. I have spoken to NSAI. The window company are (of course) NOT certified under WER and the NSAI person I spoke to was pretty damning about the company but could offer me no help.If you have a BFRC report (or the NSAI WER equivalent) for the window then an airtightness test will have been carried out for that window system so I would ask the manufacturer to supply it.
(While the politics of logos might be obvious to those in the know, this is something else I'm annoyed about as I presumed the NSAI logo meant the windows were covered by NSAI.)
Would the company be obliged to supply an airtightness test??
(This could be something I could go on.)
I can't see anything here about 'Class.' There is mention of BS EN ISO 10077-2:2003.??If it shows the windows have been classified Class 3 or 4 (to EN12207)0 -
If they are pressing you for a final payment, I would write to them clearly outlining that you feel the product they supplied to you is not performing to the standard they sold to you and that you will not make your final payment until they do perform as your were old.
As sinnerboy suggested, I would not get too technical on them, simply tell them that you can feel drafts from the windows and that once this issue is solved you will be happy to settle your account in full.
A BRFC cert from the company that relates to the windows you bought, regardless of it being a simluation or not, is a claim by the window company about the performance of their window.
It might be worth asking them for the EN 14351 certificate for the windows.
This is the new EN norm that incorporates and covers all the Windows Norms under one EN Norm. All windows manufactured within the EU are meant to be manufactured under a CE Certificate and have an EN14351-1 Certificate. These rules are already in force in alot of Europe and I think they come into effect in Ireland in July 2013, but I can stand corrected on that !
Anyone buying windows and doors should be receiving an CE cert under EN14351 from the supplier.
Listed below are the components that should be listed on the EN14351 cert.
1 EN 10077-1 Window Thermal Transmittance Uw 1,0 W/M2K
2 EN 12207 Air Permeability Class 4
3 EN 12208 Water Tighness Class 9A
4 EN 12210 Wind Load Resistance Class C5
5 EN13115 Operating Forces Class 1
6 EN12400 Continious Function Class 2
7 EN 140-3 Airborne Sound Insulation 32(-2;-4)dB
8 EN410 Solar Energy Transmission (g) 50%
9 EN410 Light Transmission 71%0 -
Thanks braftery -
Is that what 'There is mention of BS EN ISO 10077-2:2003.??' means?? If so, what does THAT mean?? Does this not relate to thermal transmittance? i.e. not to air permeability?1 EN 10077-1 Window Thermal Transmittance Uw 1,0 W/M2K
All I can see that relates to my case on this BFRC report is under a 'Casement Frame Profile' = Air permeability at 50 pa is 0.00W(m2.k). Now, I'm told that this might not actually mean Zero and this doesn't help my case...?0 -
selfbuildache wrote: »Thanks braftery -
Is that what 'There is mention of BS EN ISO 10077-2:2003.??' means?? If so, what does THAT mean?? Does this not relate to thermal transmittance? i.e. not to air permeability?
All I can see that relates to my case on this BFRC report is under a 'Casement Frame Profile' = Air permeability at 50 pa is 0.00W(m2.k). Now, I'm told that this might not actually mean Zero and this doesn't help my case...?
Again with respect - disregard the technical stuff it is too easy to get lost there. This is your best approach.I would not get too technical on them, simply tell them that you can feel drafts from the windows and that once this issue is solved you will be happy to settle your account in full.0 -
+1 to sinnerboys comment.
You do not have to be an expert in windows to know they should not be allowing drafts of air through them.
Keep safe all of the information, sales brochures, certs, etc that the company gave you, in case you might need them at a later date.
For the moment stick with polite and firm written correspondence in plain English explaining that, the product supplied and installed by them into your home, is not performing as it was sold to you. However, you will gladly settle the account as soon as the outstanding issues are solved and the product does perform to your satisfaction.
I would also advise, buying a lighter and on a windy day, walk around the all of the windows putting the lighter around the seals between the sash and frame (not to close to mark or burn the window !!). The airleak will cause the lighter flame to flicker hard or extinguish. Mark the air leak with a "post it". This will give you an idea of the scale of the problem, speed up the process of them servicing out the problem and allowing you to check after.
In the end, don't forget, you want the windows to work properly and they want to get paid.0 -
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Thanks to you both for taking the time. I will gladly stay away from the technical stuff!
But I have complained to the company as simply as I can and they have ignored my emails and have now escalated to threatening legal action for their money.
And yes, I had sticky notes all over the place from the last BER assessment.
Most of them have fallen off by now so I'll wait for the next windy day and go around with the lighter! 0 -
This is where a clever solicitor can help. (S)he can strike exactly the right note to assert your case in writing and hopefully motivate the company to sort this out.
My own guess is that all that is needed is a few hours input by a skilled operative to fine tune the windows and shame on this company for such bad customer service.0 -
just a thought ....
It might be worth one last call directly to the Financial controller of the company and let him/her know that you really want to get this sorted out and pay your outstanding account .... you can politely let him/her know that you really dont want to put it in the hands of a solicitor but you will if it can't be sorted out without one.
The Financial Controller will know that if a solicitor gets involved he will not get his money anytime soon, and he/she might be able to apply some pressure internally.0 -
Ok, so today things moved on a bit and I'm looking for possibly more simple advice from yourselves.
The company phoned and have offered to send 'someone' out to look at the windows, providing I pay them a certain amount of the money I owe.
I (with the help/advice of a solicitor friend) am willing to do this as I owe them a substantial amount and withholding it all does not look good (apparently.)
What I need to be clear about is what I want them to do. (I've to write to them.(Solicitor's advice.)) Yes, I want them to stop the draughts but I need to be more specific. Tightening the windows any more than they already have been, is not an option as they're difficult to open as it is.
Do any of you have any suggestions on what exactly I can ask them to do? (What CAN they do at this point?)
Also, Sinnerboy mentioned a
- what is the title of someone who can fix this? Their 'service engineer' who came out previously and tightened the windows, is not (in my opinion) skilled enough to do any more, so who do I ask for in the 'someone' they've offered to send out?skilled operative
Hope this is clear. Thanks for staying with it so far. If I hadn't come on here before today's phone call with them, I'd have paid them their terms just to be rid of the hassle of them.0 -
selfbuildache wrote: »While they have NSAI logos on all their literature, these logos are to do with management (or something?) but not the quality of their windows. I have spoken to NSAI. The window company are (of course) NOT certified under WER and the NSAI person I spoke to was pretty damning about the company but could offer me no help.
(While the politics of logos might be obvious to those in the know, this is something else I'm annoyed about as I presumed the NSAI logo meant the windows were covered by NSAI.)
I understand your frustration. In the UK if a manufacturer plays loose with logos - BBA, SBD - they will be dealt with. Unfortunately the house rules of this forum are not conducive to discussing this problem in the window industry. If you get shoddy service from your telecoms provider head on over to the appropriate forum and there is no prohibition on naming and shaming.selfbuildache wrote: »Would the company be obliged to supply an airtightness test??
(This could be something I could go on.)
I can't see anything here about 'Class.' There is mention of BS EN ISO 10077-2:2003.??
If you want drop me a PM with the documentaion you have and I'll have a look and give you an informed opinion.0 -
A BRFC cert from the company that relates to the windows you bought, regardless of it being a simluation or not, is a claim by the window company about the performance of their window.
I think its important to stress that the only actual performance criteria stated is the u-value. The rating itself is as accurate a measure of energy 'usage' as a BER rating.Anyone buying windows and doors should be receiving an CE cert under EN14351 from the supplier.
Listed below are the components that should be listed on the EN14351 cert.
1 EN 10077-1 Window Thermal Transmittance Uw 1,0 W/M2K
2 EN 12207 Air Permeability Class 4
3 EN 12208 Water Tighness Class 9A
4 EN 12210 Wind Load Resistance Class C5
5 EN13115 Operating Forces Class 1
6 EN12400 Continious Function Class 2
7 EN 140-3 Airborne Sound Insulation 32(-2;-4)dB
8 EN410 Solar Energy Transmission (g) 50%
9 EN410 Light Transmission 71%
Its highly probable that the CE Declarations issued by local manufacturers will have less then half those catagories declared on standard doors and windows. The BBA have indicated that the UK will only require thermal transmittance, wind loading, load capacity of safety devices and declaration of dangerous substances (!!). The rest would be voluntary so unfortunately expect to see as is the case now, lots of 'npd' - No performance declared. Still one trusts it will reassure those nervous souls who worry that a breakage of their argon filled glazing unit will gass the kids.
That shouldn't stop the informed consumer asking for the data - but how can we expect to inform the consumer if discussion is stifled you might ask.0 -
My own guess is that all that is needed is a few hours input by a skilled operative to fine tune the windows and shame on this company for such bad customer service.
The service engineer has already been out. My concern is that if the leaks are as bad as the OP has noted then the windows have been poorly installed. If a window is racked its rather difficult to 'fine tune' it without essentially re-fitting the bloody thing. Hopefully not.0 -
The windows should not be "difficult" to open. I would always apply the granny test. Could your grandmother comfortably open and close the window? If not they are not acceptable. Bear in mind they are likely to get worse with time. You should insist that the windows are draught free and function freely ie. open and close easily. I trust that this will be resolved amicably but there are forensic consulting engineers that can provide an expert report if necessary.selfbuildache wrote: »
I (with the help/advice of a solicitor friend) am willing to do this as I owe them a substantial amount and withholding it all does not look good (apparently.)
What I need to be clear about is what I want them to do. (I've to write to them.(Solicitor's advice.)) Yes, I want them to stop the draughts but I need to be more specific. Tightening the windows any more than they already have been, is not an option as they're difficult to open as it is.
Do any of you have any suggestions on what exactly I can ask them to do? (What CAN they do at this point?)
Also, Sinnerboy mentioned a
- what is the title of someone who can fix this? Their 'service engineer' who came out previously and tightened the windows, is not (in my opinion) skilled enough to do any more, so who do I ask for in the 'someone' they've offered to send out?
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fatty pang wrote: »You should insist that the windows are draught free and function freely ie. open and close easily. I trust that this will be resolved amicably but there are forensic consulting engineers that can provide an expert report if necessary.
I've been on to a consulting engineer who had a look at my BFRC report and in short, told me that I wouldn't really have a case with it as it was just a simulation report(?) An 'expert' report/test would cost in the region of €1500+. Money I don't have and am told I will probably not get back if it did go to court.
So, I'm back to my last posted question - because the company are dealing with me now, what specifically can I ask them to do with these windows to get rid of the draughts?Do any of you have any suggestions on what exactly I can ask them to do? (What CAN they do at this point?)0 -
selfbuildache wrote: »what specifically can I ask them to do with these windows to get rid of the draughts?
Nothing specifically otherwise they may shift responsibility onto you if they remain draughty. Your line should be that you are simply bursting to pay them once the windows are fixed.0 -
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Yep, this is my line, as of this morning. But in people's experience, CAN they do anything? I've agreed at this point to pay some money but would like to tie it in with them doing something with the windows, otherwise I'll be paying part of the bill with no clause that they have to fix the windows.0
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selfbuildache wrote: »Yep, this is my line, as of this morning. But in people's experience, CAN they do anything? I've agreed at this point to pay some money but would like to tie it in with them doing something with the windows, otherwise I'll be paying part of the bill with no clause that they have to fix the windows.
If you are going to pay anything else at this stage keep it small and make clear that it is a token of your goodwill to have the situation satisfactorily resolved. If you make a substantial payment it may be construed that you accept what you have received and reduce the incentive for the company to rectify obvious defects.
Bear in mind your rights as a consumer (and perhaps remind the window company as well);-
Goods must be of merchantable quality – goods should be of reasonable quality taking into account what they are meant to do, their durability and their price
Goods must be fit for their purpose – they must do what they are reasonably expected to do
Goods must be as described - the buyer must not be mislead into buying something by the description of goods or services given orally by a salesperson or an advertisement
If you have a contract with a supplier of services you can expect that:
The supplier has the necessary skill to provide the service
The service will be provided with proper care and diligence
The materials used will be sound and that goods supplied with the service will be of merchantable quality.
I don't think the company concerned would get very far trying to persuade a judge that drafty windows that are hard to open are fit for purpose. You would'nt accept it in a new car would you.0 -
With respect, I have been through each of these points with the company and with independent, professionals. The company says that the windows ARE of merchantable quality, fit for purpose etc. This is why we're now down to brass tacks: the company asking for figures on exactly how much air is coming through, me not having the money to show that and both a solicitor and an engineer telling me that I actually wouldn't have much of a case, if it went to court, as I don't have proper paperwork from the company, tying them to actual figures for airtightness. The NCA have told me they can only give me general advice. They cannot tell me what to do when the company denies breaching any of the rights above...fatty pang wrote: »Bear in mind your rights as a consumer (and perhaps remind the window company as well);-
Goods must be of merchantable quality – goods should be of reasonable quality taking into account what they are meant to do, their durability and their price
Goods must be fit for their purpose – they must do what they are reasonably expected to do
Goods must be as described - the buyer must not be mislead into buying something by the description of goods or services given orally by a salesperson or an advertisement
If you have a contract with a supplier of services you can expect that:
The supplier has the necessary skill to provide the service
The service will be provided with proper care and diligence
The materials used will be sound and that goods supplied with the service will be of merchantable quality.
Please understand if frustration is coming through here, it's with this company. I feel I've tried all the usual avenues and got nowhere, so now I'm looking to compromise with them - give them some money, with a commitment that they'll....that they'll what? They say they've done all they can and that the windows are fit for purpose. I say they're leaking air and difficult to open but I don't have the knowledge or the money to pin them down on exactly what they should be doing...:mad:0 -
My own guess is that all that is needed is a few hours input by a skilled operative to fine tune the windows and shame on this company for such bad customer service.
Who is this skilled operative? What I mean is, what is the qualification/title of this person and maybe I can ask for their 'X' (person qualified) to come out and look at this?
(I know, I know, clutching at straws here.)0 -
selfbuildache wrote: »... the company asking for figures on exactly how much air is coming through, me not having the money to show that and both a solicitor and an engineer telling me that I actually wouldn't have much of a case, if it went to court, as I don't have proper paperwork from the company, tying them to actual figures for airtightness.
....They say they've done all they can and that the windows are fit for purpose. I say they're leaking air and difficult to open but I don't have the knowledge or the money to pin them down on exactly what they should be doing...:mad:
Hold the flame of a candle next to the area where you can feel the drafts. Video it.... and put it up on Youtube. e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc_DzLCJ60M
Email a link to the company so they can see it and note that if its not fixed within a week you will include their contact details in the description on Youtube.
Today should be a pretty good day to find leaks.
To test the effectiveness of the seals open the window take a strip of paper and close the window with the paper half-in and half-out. If the paper pulls through easily its almost certain that the seals are inadequate. There should be some resistance when you pull. Today is not a good day to that particular test.0 -
Thank you! I don't know that I'm brave enough to do You Tube. Would have done a month ago but now I'm in 'negotiation' with the them, not so brave/mad. Funny, I was going around the frames on Thursday, as asked but never thought of filming. I'll do the 'paper test' over the weekend.0
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