Black economy/ fake goods/ dole cheats & reporting

Red_Wake

signostic wrote: »

Next door to me is a similar situation, single woman, 2 kids, live in bf not declared, he actually runs a clothes alteration business from the house.She told me she claims job seekers, single parent, rent & fuel allowance, medical card plus other freebies from the SW. Would I report her ...no but the SW should have systems in place to counteract these claims, thats what we pay the public service for isn`t it

jessiejam wrote: »

FFS It shouldn't be up to the general population to report anyone. There should be systems in place to prevent fraud on every level within the SW.

So in summary, you want them to be caught, without anyone telling on them.

If nobody co-operates with the system, how is it supposed to find out who's cheating it short of implementing some kind of fascist-esque state where everyone is spied upon at all times to ensure they're not defrauding the state?

AnonoBoy

signostic wrote: »

You make a fair point.... it astonished me how easy she said it was to claim all of her allowances...surely there should be more checks and balances

There should be definitely.

It does seem to be very easy to claim money that you're not entitled to. But it's very hard to prove somethings without making it ridiculously hard for people to actually get money that they are entitled to I suppose.

TwoShedsJackson

shopaholic01 wrote: »

More people might do it if it was anonymous.

It is.

pow wow

There's a 'report suspected fraud' function on their website and your own details are not one of the required fields.

old hippy

shopaholic01 wrote: »

If you did report someone would they know it was you? More people might do it if it was anonymous. Anyone fraudulently claiming social welfare should be reported - it might allow more money for those who genuinely need it and reduce tax for those in employment.

What if some of those people you want to report actually genuinely do need a few extra quid?

Mince Pie

shopaholic01 wrote: »

If you did report someone would they know it was you? More people might do it if it was anonymous. Anyone fraudulently claiming social welfare should be reported - it might allow more money for those who genuinely need it and reduce tax for those in employment.

Reporting people is never going to reduce tax or increase benefits for others.

It's also a sticky wicket to get into, how do you know that the person isn't already declaring what they are doing and are still entitled to their benefits. Would the reporter be privy to their dealings with the social welfare and their private details?
Also, the person selling a few cakes at stalls would generally not be making money but might be trying to get "word" out to increase orders and therefore move into a legitimate business venture.
FWIW, if you want to sell food products at fayres etc you have to have public liability insurance etc. So therefore it will mostly be declared.
I used to sell cakes in the UK and I was getting the dole. I declared it every time I signed on but I was working at a loss so it didn't affect my benefits.
So from the outside you could be getting the wrong end of a ****ty stick.

Me personally I wouldn't report anyone cos I don't know their details and more importantly its none of my ****ing business what others do.

pow wow

Mince Pie wrote: »

Reporting people is never going to reduce tax or increase benefits for others.

The money they were fraudulently claiming has to go somewhere.

srsly78

Mince Pie wrote: »

Me personally I wouldn't report anyone cos I don't know their details and more importantly its none of my ****ing business what others do.

It becomes your business when they start defrauding the government of your tax money.

Mince Pie

pow wow wrote: »

The money they were fraudulently claiming has to go somewhere.

Of course it will go somewhere but I very much doubt it will go to reduce tax.

AnonoBoy

Mince Pie wrote: »

Reporting people is never going to reduce tax or increase benefits for others.

It's also a sticky wicket to get into, how do you know that the person isn't already declaring what they are doing and are still entitled to their benefits.

I would presume in that case they would still receive their benefits.

I don't think they just get a report and go 'Someone said you're defrauding us so we're cutting you off without any evidence whatsoever."

shopaholic01

old hippy wrote: »

What if some of those people you want to report actually genuinely do need a few extra quid?

A lot of people who are working genuinely need extra money, but don't have the option of not paying tax.

Mince Pie

srsly78 wrote: »

It becomes your business when they start defrauding the government of your tax money.

Yes, but as I stated earlier, are you privy to what they are declaring or not? Hence why I mind my own business unless I know all the facts. I don't go to social welfare appointments so will mind my own business.

pow wow

Mince Pie wrote: »

Of course it will go somewhere but I very much doubt it will go to reduce tax.

I'd rather it in the collective coffers than the pockets of welfare cheats tbh.

Mince Pie

pow wow wrote: »

I'd rather it in the collective coffers than the pockets of welfare cheats tbh.

So where do you think this plethora of extra cash is going to go? Is it really that widespread?
Is that extra cash not going back into the economy in VAT and local businesses?

SCOOP 64

You could work Saturdays and Sundays and keep your dole. Think you still can too[/QUOTE]

I think its only sundays now.

annascott

I don't approve of people working and claiming welfare, but no I would not report them. I am ashamed to admit that I cannot honestly say that I would turn down a decent PRADA replica if it looked the part.

0ph0rce0

People on here are so bitter haha, your too funny.

I love when people give out, just shows how much of a **** you really are

pow wow

Mince Pie wrote: »

So where do you think this plethora of extra cash is going to go? Is it really that widespread?
Is that extra cash not going back into the economy in VAT and local businesses?

I'd wager it's a lot more widespread than you seem to think it is. As for where the money goes, wherever it may have gone had it not been claimed by those who aren't entitled to it.

Mince Pie

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

People on here are so bitter haha, your too funny.

I love when people give out, just shows how much of a **** you really are

Your insightful response is much appreciated. :rolleyes:

laugh

The revenue came to my town recently taking down the details of people advertising services on noticeboards.

One particular gentleman was advertising a service to take care of peoples horses when they were away.

They called out to his house to check if he was making the required returns associated with this enterprise; he was 13.

steddyeddy

No I dont know individual circumstance so I have no measure of whether what they are doing is wrong or not. By the way in my book breaking the law does not equal wrong before anyone jumps in.

0ph0rce0

Mince Pie wrote: »

Your insightful response is much appreciated. :rolleyes:

Just sick of the same thread everyday, its boring now, same people giving out stink everyday, because THEY the dole folk have a flat screen tv and the likes. If someone has to worry about **** like that then they don't really have a life.

squod

Arguing over a pittance while large scale fraud goes on and still no-one is responsible for anything that happened before or during the treason of 2008.

We need our heads examined for letting shysters run the country.

Nine out of 10 known white-collar crimes fail to result in a conviction. In part, this is because there has been no serious effort to create a fraud squad with the expertise to investigate complex cases. The fraud squad has not a single full-time lawyer attached to it and just two qualified accountants.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2012/1127/1224327143085.html

Mince Pie

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

Just sick of the same thread everyday, its boring now, same people giving out stink everyday, because THEY the dole folk have a flat screen tv and the likes. If someone has to worry about **** like that then they don't really have a life.

Ah righto, I'm finding the whole dole bashing rather tedious myself. I would understand if it was a few years ago when jobs were aplenty but its so difficult to find anything right now.
My soul is destroyed spending my days applying and getting nowhere. I have numerous years experience in insurance and also in the service industry and can't find anything. Went for a bar job locally and there were 30 other people applying for the same job. (open interviews) So it really gets my hackles up when everyday its incessant dole scroungers, burn them at the stake etc etc.

Rant over.

Celly Smunt

I know a Lad and his dad who sell newspapers out of their boot outside my local church where i buy the sunday papers every week. The father is on social welfare and the son is in college.They stand there sleet,rain or snow freezing their balls off for 5 hours every sunday morning for what the father describes as "tax for the car" and the student "lunch for the week".

If these are the type of people who should be reported then fook the lot of you to be frank.

srsly78

pmcmahon wrote: »

I know a Lad and his dad who sell newspapers out of their boot outside my local church where i buy the sunday papers every week. The father is on social welfare and the son is in college.They stand there sleet,rain or snow freezing their balls off for 5 hours every sunday morning for what the father describes as "tax for the car" and the student "lunch for the week".

If these are the type of people who should be reported then fook the lot of you to be frank.

Why would they be reported? What exactly are these people doing wrong? Maybe they are even reporting the income (yeah right) :pac:

flutered

up the road is a guy with a great pension, he gives lectures on the side, it seems he get gotd dosh for them, including all expenses, he has free travel as well, does he declare the income from the lectures, if you are interested why dont you ask him, his name is bertie aherne, what is the difference between the lass that bakes and sells the stuff at the car boot and bertie aherne, who costs the taxpayer the most.

0ph0rce0

Mince Pie wrote: »

Ah righto, I'm finding the whole dole bashing rather tedious myself. I would understand if it was a few years ago when jobs were aplenty but its so difficult to find anything right now.
My soul is destroyed spending my days applying and getting nowhere. I have numerous years experience in insurance and also in the service industry and can't find anything. Went for a bar job locally and there were 30 other people applying for the same job. (open interviews) So it really gets my hackles up when everyday its incessant dole scroungers, burn them at the stake etc etc.

Rant over.

If your in Dublin I might be able to help (MIGHT BEING THE WORD), it is only sales but its something and its not minimum wage (insurance sales that is)

Mince Pie

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

If your in Dublin I might be able to help (MIGHT BEING THE WORD), it is only sales but its something and its not minimum wage (insurance sales that is)

Awesome!! Could you pm me??

Celly Smunt

srsly78 wrote: »

Why would they be reported? What exactly are these people doing wrong? Maybe they are even reporting the income (yeah right) :pac:

Type of people

Scruffles

AnonoBoy wrote: »

You do understand that social welfare comes from taxpayer's money don't you?

It's not a bottomless pot that everyone gets to dive into and grab what they can from.

agreed,it also affects claimers in other ways to.
disability benefits for example are made harder and harder for people to claim due to the complex ways of assessing they bring in,or new forms which makes it impossible for some disabled people to claim due to lack of support,pain,mental health issues,lack of energy etc whereas its the frauds who have no problem filling them in and lying.

benefit frauds over the years have also ended up creating collective paranoia and hate through the media with every claimant being maliciously tagged as a scrounger/fraud.
if personaly knew anyone who was frauding disability benefit [DLA over here] woud report them no problem because they effect all genuine disabled claimers,its us who end up with the poor treatment in society because people associate the benefit with fraud only.

as for being overweight,there are a lot of reasons why people can be overweight; both indirectly and directly caused by conditions,diseases or disabilities.
am personaly overweight-not because of overeating,until last year had not touched food for many years due to sensory and change issues from autism; the fallout from abuse in residential homes and being constantly transfered to different units,since starting back on food have only been eating one healthy meal a day,have been prescribed ensure plus for many years but its so disgusting that only manage a mouthful of it.

the other issue is being able to exercise,am not able to access the community due to severity of disabilities,the main exercise that do is going out to give the chickens their porridge and helping staff sweep the house at night.
being in residential care as well,we are not able to just go out even for fresh air when we want.

have just been accepted into a special olympics club with a fellow resident and am hoping to lose weight there when we start training in jan,am not bothered what people think of self in the slightest, but as a currently inactive horse rider will not be going anywhere near horses again till have lost weight.

obese people dont need someone pointing out the obvious or being nasty; most obese people do enough self loathing already,have no self confidence and are quite aware of their situation,its rather cruel and bullyish to carry on doing so when the person is trapped in their own feelings of helplessness,that is why people comfort eat.
obese people struggle to exercise due to how difficult is to mobilise themselves.

Furious_George

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Personally I would not report anybody for making a few quid for Christmas. When Bertie Ahern can claim the source of his unexplained money was a win on the gee gees and he continues to draw a pension of 3 grand a week, why should I report a person selling mince pies at a Christmas Fair?

I am not saying I would report someone because I wouldn't but the logic you use is part of the reason we get the likes of bertie. It's the attitude, sure he is getting away with doing that, why shouldn't I be able to earn a bit without declaring it. By doing this we are accepting wrongdoing as the norm.

My father always told me that a population get the politicians they deserve. They wouldn't pull the scams if they felt they would be held accountable for them. By letting the Aherns, lowrys, wallaces away with their ****e we have proved that we don't hold people accountable for their wrongdoings as a collective. But hey I'm no different as I wouldn't begrudge someone a few extra bob to supplement their dole on the QT and I wasnt out baying for the heads of those I have mentioned.

ps I hope you don't think I'm having a go at you because I'm quoting you, im just using it as an example.

steddyeddy

pmcmahon wrote: »

I know a Lad and his dad who sell newspapers out of their boot outside my local church where i buy the sunday papers every week. The father is on social welfare and the son is in college.They stand there sleet,rain or snow freezing their balls off for 5 hours every sunday morning for what the father describes as "tax for the car" and the student "lunch for the week".

If these are the type of people who should be reported then fook the lot of you to be frank.

Yea thats the people I know doing it to be honest. People getting their lunch for college. So I'd echo the statement "Fook the lot of you who do!"!!

joydivision

If anyone thinks reducing the dole billwill get taxs lowered public services improved or less fortunate people getting a pay risethey really are just being bitter . Itll be given in bonuses to the top brass at the social and a few quid sent back to germany .
If a woman selling cakes at a market annoys ye you should try live for a while on the dole . Sometimes you have to come up with a hair brained scheme to put food on the table .

Assassin saphir

I'm not very familiar with the sw system. However few years ago at work one lady announces at teabreak in the company of about 8 staff how hard it is to manage money etc. She was living at the time in a luxury estate rent approx €1k month. She has no kids. She then announced that her husband had gone back to Poland to work however his dole here was being paid into his bank account ( apparently you could do this before). He was flying back into the country when needed to see sign on. Que silence at the table.
Anyway few weeks later she got a lovely early morning visit from sw dept. I don't know which person rang but was very tempted myself.

Odysseus

I often wonder about three this, a lot of my clients would engage in ripping off welfare to various degrees. There are those who really depend on whey get off welfare, others are just doing it because they can. During the good years I was shocked a what some clients where getting.

Single mothers in particular, they had their "book" what they got for attending a p/t course etc, some where getting 550 p/w then there was all the other stuff medical card, rent, etc. A lots has been cut back, but in one area I worked in single mothers where targeted, but the way it was done was wrong. I seen those who weren't ripping off the system were hit, and they blaggers just blagged their way out of it.

I have to say I hate this "it is my money" its not; once my tax is deducted from my wages it is the States money.

Anyway I don't know if that makes sense, but that is my 2c.

ilovesleep

joydivision wrote: »

If anyone thinks reducing the dole billwill get taxs lowered public services improved or less fortunate people getting a pay risethey really are just being bitter . Itll be given in bonuses to the top brass at the social and a few quid sent back to germany .
If a woman selling cakes at a market annoys ye you should try live for a while on the dole . Sometimes you have to come up with a hair brained scheme to put food on the table .

It's the same mentality that some tv license payers have: 'if all paid for their tv license, mine would be less' attitude.

Ah excuse me! How do you know the non payers don't have a tv?

Ah, they have one hiding in their cupboard. They must do. Everyone has a tv.

'If everybody pays mine would be less, and that's all that matters'.

No - it won't be less. Pat Kenny and his colleagues will get a pay rise or it will go towards bailing out rte and it's deficit.

hyperborean

pmcmahon wrote: »

I know a Lad and his dad who sell newspapers out of their boot outside my local church where i buy the sunday papers every week. The father is on social welfare and the son is in college.They stand there sleet,rain or snow freezing their balls off for 5 hours every sunday morning for what the father describes as "tax for the car" and the student "lunch for the week".

If these are the type of people who should be reported then fook the lot of you to be frank.

Hows college going for ye fatty?

Celly Smunt

hyperborean wrote: »

Hows college going for ye fatty?

ah it was grand 7 years ago.

bleg

Odysseus wrote: »

Anyway I don't know if that makes sense, but that is my 2c.

Nope, 1c belongs to the State.

relax carry on

Can't really speak from a DSP point of view but do people honestly believe that Revenue and the DSP know everything about everyone in the country at all times?
Both have checks and balances in their respective systems to tackle fraud and the Black Economy but they aren't perfect. Both also have limited resources so any assistance is appreciated.

Reporting a suspected case of fraud etc is just that. You are just "reporting". You aren't making the decision to investigate the matter; Revenue or the DSP do that.
For example, while reports made to Revenue have to be followed up, they are not looked at in isolation. Revenue uses a scoring system to determine your risk using multiple sources of information. If they didn't they'd be pretty much in the dark.

We as a society really have to get past this childish notion of "sticking it to the man" and "don't rat" If we accept that as a society that all must pay their share, from the smallest to the largest, then if you suspect something, then report it.

Madam_X

If someone is e.g. an electrician and work has dried up/theyve lost their job so they need to claim social welfare, and the occasional nixer is made available to them, they'd be foolish not to take it IMO. Same people who'd criticise that would be the ones saying they're a drain sitting at home all day.

miss_shadow

Every single person I know who is on the dole is scamming it. Not one person is not going by the rules...
I'm Working away to pay for the childminder who also claims!
My mate has two kids with her fella, he lives with her but gets rent allowance to rent a flat which is not used so they can both claim!

Tombi!

Stop going about ratting; we're not 10 years old in school. If you don't think you should report anyone ever, fine.
I could be wrong about reporting and the likes but if someone is already declaring the work their doing and stuff, the dole won't tell you and even when they investigate the welfare still won't let you know what happened.
The only way to find out is to ask the person directly. So those of you saying "I know she/he doesn't report it", did you actually get proof from the person themselves?

Anyway, I know a delivery driver (not personally) that has a kid, pays child support and works. He doesn't tell the dole he works. He actually said that he doesn't tell them he works because it'd be mean less money for nights out. Would I report him if I knew his name and all? I dunno. Maybe.

But when people are so blatant about being able to get so much stuff from the welfare through lying and so on, yeah, report them in an instant.
If you're trying to get more things that you don't deserve and you're openly bragging about it then you really don't deserve it.

flutered

many seem to forget that many unemployed cannot get the dole, for instance if their other halfs earn more than 400 a week, so because someone is unemployed and gets a nixer does not automatically mean that they are guilty of fraud.

Truley

A few of my friends who are unemployed or on CE schemes that sometimes sell art and crafts at farmer's markets on the side. They pay so much to hire the market stalls more often than not they're making féck all anyway. I would never begrudge someone doing something skilful and productive and the few bob they might get from it. The tax office would probably penalise me for wasting their time with my petty complaints.

Rabidlamb

The black economy means I can pay my unemployed neighbour €200 a week to mind my kids instead of the €320 a week the creche were quoting.
This means I can afford to go to work & pay taxes.
It means that she can keep paying her mortgage.

It's an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

Madam_X

Oh and the people in comfortable jobs and with no financial worries who say they'd go through all the hassle of declaring for a bit of cash work here and there on top of their dole if they fell on hard times... are big huge liars.

srsly78

Rabidlamb wrote: »

The black economy means I can pay my unemployed neighbour €200 a week to mind my kids instead of the €320 a week the creche were quoting.
This means I can afford to go to work & pay taxes.
It means that she can keep paying her mortgage.

It's an Irish solution to an Irish problem.

It 's a short-sighted selfish solution, look at Greece to see where this line of thinking leads.

Fighting Irish

HeyThereDeliah wrote: »

Everyone tries to justify it but fraud, dole cheats, minding kids not declaring it, single mothers etc its all wrong regardless of how anyone tries to justify it, those of us who are working are paying tax etc and have to manage on what we earn.

but but tbu what about bertie ahern!!!!!1