Constitutional Convention

RangeR

So, I must apologise. I have more info to post, but that info is at home. I've been busy [and tired] and just kept forgetting. If I don't put it up by Wednesday, somebody give me a kick.

Basically, as mentioned a while ago, CCVEN are organising a roadshow. I think it's rolling out this or next month. I should be at the two Dublin ones [one in DCU]. I'm a social pariah so don't be expecting long winded, political in depth talks from me. You'll be lucky if I acknowledge your existence and come across as a dick

I'll try post a full calendar over the next night or two. The main purpose of these events are to give the general public an opportunity to put forward, and maybe discuss, "any other business" items. We already have a big list of submissions [which I will post here with the calendar].


Anyway, more info to follow.

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

so what are the chances of the seanad being discussed at the CC (even if they take legislative steps in the meantime anyway)

your booked up till xmas arn't you

is everyone tired giving up their weekends, hows the attrition rate

I think it would be useful to have a discussion on it, on both houses, executive dominence, legislation, the whip etc

you've got these regional open meetings atleast https://www.constitution.ie/NewsDetails.aspx?nid=32a1876f-f82c-e311-96d5-005056a32ee4

As above, the chances are high if enough want to discuss it.

As far as booked up until Christmas, we have asked for extension to Feb 2014. We are still awaiting formal agreement from Gov.

We have a weekend or two to discuss Any Other Business, which is preceded with the road show mentioned above.

RangeR

Sorry, I don't have any soft copies so I took photos of the hard copies. Details of the "road show" attached. I hope to be at the Dublin events.

[B]Region       Venue                            Date[/B]
Cork         UCC                              23 October
Galway       NUIG                             30 October
Waterford    City Hall                        7 November
Dublin       DCU                              11 November
Dublin       Royal Irish Acadamy              13 November
Sligo        Borough Council                  19 November
Athlone      Radisson SAS                     20 November
Monaghan     Education Institute TBC          25 November

RangeR

The public announcement, with some more detail. I don't think times have been set but I'd say it would be safe to assume around the 7pm through 9pm time frame.

The Journal wrote:

THE CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION is going on tour, and will hold eight public meetings around Ireland.

It announced today that it will travel to Cork, Galway, Waterford, Sligo, Athlone, Monaghan and Dublin on the tour, which will take place this month and into November.

The meetings will help to “set the agenda” as the convention decides on the constitutional issues to look at during the final module of its work programme.
Public meetings

On the tour, it will hold the meetings at:
Cork: University College Cork, 23 October
Galway: NUI Galway, 30 October
Waterford: Waterford City Hall, 7 November
Dublin: Dublin City University, 11 November
Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 13 November
Sligo: Sligo Borough Council, 19 November
Athlone: Radisson SAS, 20 November
Monaghan: Monaghan Educational Campus, 25 November

The Chairman of the Convention on the Constitution, Tom Arnold, said:

Over the last year we have received many thousands of submissions and we are looking to forward to hearing the detail of these issues first-hand from members of the public.

He said that as the Convention on the Constitution is a citizens’ forum, “it is essential that Irish citizens are able to make their views known and have their say”.

Members of the Convention are very keen to hear citizens’ views and I would like to strongly urge people living in these areas to come along to a local meeting and get involved in the process.

There are 100 people in the convention, including 66 ordinary citizens, 29 members of the Oireachtas and four members of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

They were asked by the Dáil to consider a number of matters, including reducing the voting age to 17, providing for same-sex marriage, removing the offence of blasphemy from the Constitution and amending the clause on the role of women in the home.

The members voted to lower the voting age, rejected the reduction of the presidential term, voted in favour of same-sex marriage, and voted to alter the ‘women in the home’ clause.

RangeR

I was told at the last meeting, that a member of the convention [not one of the 100 nor secretariat - but rather one of the regular experts] is writing a book on the year long process, and promoting them-self as the genius behind CCVEN, that it wouldn't have been possible without that person.

Personally, although this person is important to the process and brought a lot to the process, I refute their "Genius and irreplaceable" claim

The book should be ... interesting.

expectationlost

RangeR wrote: »

I was told at the last meeting, that a member of the convention [not one of the 100 nor secretariat - but rather one of the regular experts] is writing a book on the year long process, and promoting them-self as the genius behind CCVEN, that it wouldn't have been possible without that person.

he has an ego but he might be right

AngryHippie

RangeR,

I have a topic I would like to be discussed at the convention if possible:




Immediate and effective implementation of article 16.1.2 regarding the right and ability for all citizens of the Republic of Ireland to vote at an election for members of Dail Eireann, whether they be in the country or the election conducted overseas at an embassy or consulate.


2° i All citizens, and

ii such other persons in the State as may be determined by law,

without distinction of sex who have reached the age of eighteen years who are not disqualified by law and comply with the provisions of the law relating to the election of members of Dáil Éireann, shall have the right to vote at an election for members of Dáil Éireann.


http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/elections_and_referenda/voting/registering_to_vote.html

The system for a postal vote is already established for Consular staff. why is it too hard ? why does computer say no ?
are they too worried about their jobs ?
I am being denied my constitutional rights on this matter, and I'm not real impressed, and I'm not alone.
I'd go as far as saying if every Irish citizen resident overseas got a vote, they would perhaps have enough numbers to encourage the kind of leaders who can foster the economic conditions for a return home....

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

he has an ego but he might be right

You = Him?

expectationlost

where is our update on the extra subject of discussion RangeR?

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

where is our update on the extra subeject of discussion RangeR?

Indeed. I have been slipping in my duties lately. Life does get in the way.

We recently voted via email on what we would like to discuss in the double weekend of February. First we were asked to vote on the number of items we'd like to discuss. I voted for two items [as did 60% of the total vote - winner].

The second vote was on which topics to discuss. My top two were De Facto Family, specifically non married with no children, but generally all types of family. And Seanad Reform.

Snip of results email as follows [snip as the rest contained mobile phone numbers etc]

We counted the ballots in Leinster House last night and the results were as follows:

On the first question (how many issues should we look at in the two meetings in February?), there was a very clear preference, with almost 60% opting for TWO issues.....the next preference was a distant 45% behind.....

In relation to the issues themselves, the first preference results were as follows:

Economic, Social and Cultural Rights - 18%
Political and Institutional Reform - 49%
Family and issues of Morality - 11%
Bill of Rights - 6%
Church and State - 2%
The Environment - 14%

Political and Institutional Reform was obviously a clear winner and when we counted the transfers, Economic, Social and Cultural Rights finished second, ahead of the Environment in third place.

Given the breadth of issues covered in Political and Institutional Reform, I would be grateful if you would complete the attached further ballot paper, which will identify which issue(s) in particular you would like to look at for the first meeting in February. Please return the ballot by 3 p.m. next Wednesday, 11th December.

We were asked to vote on which aspects of Political Reform. I voted as below. Actual results aren't in yet.

1 Seanad Reform
3 Dail Reform (incl. the relationship with the Executive)
2 Local Government Reform
4 Role and powers of the President
9 Role and Powers of the Ombudsman
5 Role and powers of the Comptroller & Auditor General
7 Freedom of Information
6 The referendum process
8 The appointment of judges
x Other (please specify)
x Other (please specify)

expectationlost

1. Political and Institutional Reform
ok erm isn't that what you been doing all along

2. "Economic, Social and Cultural Rights"
ah yes that's always on the tip of my tongue when I think about constitution /sarcasm

can you post up the text of the question which resulted in those results

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

1. Political and Institutional Reform
ok erm isn't that what you been doing all along

2. "Economic, Social and Cultural Rights"
ah yes that's always on the tip of my tongue when I think about constitution /sarcasm

can you post up the text of the question which resulted in those results

Yeah. ESC wasn't in my top 3 either, but that democracy. Will post up all voting source doxs when I get into the office.

RangeR

Oh right the original vote was STV. I missed that. Maybe my vote was spoiled but it's unlikely

Both ballot documents attached.

expectationlost

so who chose those topics as your choices? how where they chosen?

so was the Political and Institutional Reform the only one of those that had breakdown because many of these issue had come up


did many convention members go to public meetings or keep with all the submissions being entered online?

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

so who chose those topics as your choices? how where they chosen?

In our previous weekend, the expert panel broke up the Constitutional areas into the main sections to discuss.

expectationlost wrote: »

so was the Political and Institutional Reform the only one of those that had breakdown because many of these issue had come up

No, all sections had been expanded on at the previous meeting. We were all handed a many A4 page [about 20 pages] booklet to read through on the breakdown of the main sections. I no longer have this booklet.

expectationlost wrote: »

did many convention members go to public meetings or keep with all the submissions being entered online?

I just don't know. Some meets were well attended by the 100, some where not. I attended the DCU one where there were, from memory 4 or 5 of the 66 and one of the 33.

I offered to go to the other Dublin one but only if they were expecting a low 100 turnout. As it happens, I wasn't needed. I was in a bad car crash a week or so before the DCU one and even that sitting was a struggle for me.

As for the submission, yes, some of us went through all [or most] of the submissions. I did not. I read a few. We were all given a breakdown of the count of submissions per category.

On my vote. mentioned above. To be honest, I gave little or no weight to the amount of submissions. I gave up a year of my life to CCVEN and brought the collectiveness of boardsie discussions to each meeting. I took this AOB to my own personal preferences.

De Facto Family : I sickens me that I cannot utilise my partners tax credits whereas she is hindered by my wage when she applies for any benefits.

Reform Seanad : I voted no for this a few months back, when the senators overtook the start of one of our meetings and effectively lobbied for us to include it. What was actually said off camera, by the senators to justify what they did, sickened me. However, I still believe in the Theory of the Seanad and it does need to be reformed, not abolished. That reform should probably stretch to a different breed of senator, as although they claim they need reforming, have done SFA to actually perform their duties and be a check and balance against the Gov.

Scofflaw

RangeR wrote:

Reform Seanad : I voted no for this a few months back, when the senators overtook the start of one of our meetings and effectively lobbied for us to include it. What was actually said off camera, by the senators to justify what they did, sickened me. However, I still believe in the Theory of the Seanad and it does need to be reformed, not abolished. That reform should probably stretch to a different breed of senator, as although they claim they need reforming, have done SFA to actually perform their duties and be a check and balance against the Gov.

There was a Democracy Matters Seanad reform meeting last night - I had hoped to go, but couldn't, so not sure yet what the outcome was. Well attended, anyway, by all accounts.

cordially,
Scofflaw

expectationlost

RangeR wrote: »

No, all sections had been expanded on at the previous meeting. We were all handed a many A4 page [about 20 pages] booklet to read through on the breakdown of the main sections. I no longer have this booklet.

ya think they'd put this up on https://www.constitution.ie/Convention.aspx I don't see it

We were all given a breakdown of the count of submissions per category.

could you find that breakdown for us?

oscarBravo

RangeR wrote: »

De Facto Family : I sickens me that I cannot utilise my partners tax credits whereas she is hindered by my wage when she applies for any benefits.

Yeah, that one's a sickener alright.

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

ya think they'd put this up on https://www.constitution.ie/Convention.aspx I don't see it



could you find that breakdown for us?

Sure. I'll ask the secretariat to send me on a soft copy. Might take a few days. If I don't come back by say Friday, give this thread a kick

RangeR

Softcopies attached.

expectationlost

RangeR wrote: »

Softcopies attached.

been informed that list of submissions is from 25th of October and doesn't reflect situation of after the call for public submissions

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

been informed that list of submissions is from 25th of October and doesn't reflect situation of after the call for public submissions

Yes, it was prepared for our session of November 2.

expectationlost

Convention on the Constitution chooses (i) Dáil Reform and (ii) Economic, Social and Cultural rights for discussion at their final two meetings in February 2014 To Access the Press Release please click here: https://www.constitution.ie/NewsDetails.aspx?nid=76cc1880-2167-e311-877e-005056a32ee4

was it 'Dail reform' that was chosen or 'political reform' as the choice was described?

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

Convention on the Constitution chooses (i) Dáil Reform and (ii) Economic, Social and Cultural rights for discussion at their final two meetings in February 2014 To Access the Press Release please click here: https://www.constitution.ie/NewsDetails.aspx?nid=76cc1880-2167-e311-877e-005056a32ee4

was it 'Dail reform' that was chosen or 'political reform' as the choice was described?

Yeah. sorry. On Dec 13, we received an email. Details below

Evening all,

We have now counted the ballots and the first preference results are as follows:

• Seanad Reform: 37%
• Dail Reform: 35%
• Local Govt. Reform: 20%
• Referendum Process: 4%
• Role of the C&AG: 2%
• Votes for Emigrants: 2%

The other 3 issues didn't attract any first preference votes. The final count (the elimination of Local Government Reform) saw DAIL REFORM elected in first place, ahead of Seanad Reform.

So the dates for your diary are:
1/2 February - Dail Reform
22/23 February - Economic, Social and Cultural Rights.

We'll bring some proposals to the Steering Group early in the New Year for the arrangements for the 2 meetings in February. At our Dail Reform meeting, I think it is inevitable that the role of the Seanad will arise as part of the discussion, which is probably fair, given the closeness of the above vote. I'm sure that the Steering Group will want to give that issue considerable thought, to make sure that we make best use of the limited time available to us over a single weekend.

We'll release the details to the press on Sunday, for publication on Monday.

Technoprisoner

It would be good to see some reform of both houses.... This convention will hopefully bring some good to the country and remind those in power that the people still have a choice

RangeR

Technoprisoner wrote: »

It would be good to see some reform of both houses.... This convention will hopefully bring some good to the country and remind those in power that the people still have a choice

Yes people always have a choice. Unfortunately, gov.ie knows only too well that the majority of people will just take what they are given. Very little upheaval / protests / poor election turnouts to get rid of ne'er-do-well's.

There are many facets as to why this is but it's still a sorry affair.

As for the CCVEN having an input. Gov.ie seem to be very lax in considering our reports. No proof, just something I picked up along the way.

expectationlost

Address to Seanad Éireann by Mr. Tom Arnold http://www.kildarestreet.com/sendebates/?id=2014-01-16a.51&s=tom+arnold#g100

Mr. Arnold, in a very good and wide-ranging report and speech, said that the convention examined various matters, including the reports prepared by the All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution, which produced 11 reports from 1997 to 2006. I did my best to open up the convention to things such as Seanad reform, but that was prevented. Before the convention got wise to my ways, however, I managed to raise the question of the Presidency - in a real way, not fluting around on the margins, which is basically what we did. Nobody gives much of a damn about the term of office of the President. However, I raised the matter at the convention because the chairman kindly allowed me to do so and gave latitude for it. There was a discussion on it. As many as 96% of the people - by far the largest vote ever in the convention - voted in favour of the role being opened up to citizen nomination. Where is that stated in the report and recommendations that will be considered by the Government? The one thing on which there was almost 100% agreement has been omitted. It is not only that. I have in my hand a Bill that was produced by the present Government parties in 1997 in which they suggested, among other things, that 20,000 citizens should be able to nominate. Where is that stated in the report?

expectationlost

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-02-11a.287&s=speaker%3A42#g288.q convention extended till march 31st

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-02-11a.287&s=speaker%3A42#g288.q convention extended till march 31st

That's to allow the various reports to be compiled. Our last sitting will be on the weekend of 22 Feb

RangeR

There are rumours that we will be staying either full day Sunday [rather than a lunch finish] or staying in Malahide Sunday night.

As this is our last sitting, we may want to wrap things up neatly. These may include but not limited to, recommendations of issues to consider for the following Constitutional Convention, if that happens.