Constitutional Convention

RangeR

Thanks for that link, expectationlost. Some great news. I thought Gov.ie rejected our proposal of allowing the public have a say in the Presidential Election Process. It's not a done deal but it's no longer a rejection either.

In addition, the Government has decided to refer to the relevant Oireachtas committee the question of a constitutional amendment to give citizens a say in the nomination process for presidential candidates.

Other quotes from that piece, that I think are important...

While we have no plans to hold a referendum during 2014, we announced that a number of referendums will be held in 2015.

Arising from recommendations in reports of the Convention on the Constitution, the Government has announced that it will bring forward proposals in 2015 for referendums on same-sex marriage, reducing the voting age to 16 and reducing the age of candidacy for presidential elections to 21.

The Government has also undertaken to look at making ... the role of women gender neutral, and at including other carers both in and beyond the home. It has also undertaken to look at ... the principle of gender equality, as well as the use of gender-inclusive language in the Constitution.

RangeR

eMail Snip

A couple of other things:
- I’m hoping to take a “family” photo of the Convention members just before lunch on Saturday – weather permitting, I’d like to do it outside, so please try to be available at 12.30;

- We’re planning something a little special for our final dinner on Saturday night, so please try to attend if you can.....you might let amy <email snip> know one way or another;

- A small number of members have indicated that they would like to stay on Sunday night as well (given the weekend that’s in it) – if you have plans to do likewise, you might just let me know;

- The tour of Leinster House and dinner has been organised for Friday night and it looks like we’ve a full house....if you haven’t already let Amy know you’re going, please do so asap – we’ll need a second bus if there’s a last-minute rush......

EDIT : I knew I forgot something

A letter from Mary Lou with recommendations for any future Convention (for discussion);

expectationlost

be careful with any attempt to enjoy yourselves or celebrate completion some people won't recognise all the hard work you put in

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

be careful with any attempt to enjoy yourselves or celebrate completion some people won't recognise all the hard work you put in

Some?

RangeR

So.... We're done. It's been a long 14-15 months. Many, many, many highs. A few lows. We lost many 66 along the way but we gained a good few more as replacements. I've met many friends both in the 66 and 33. I've always hated the term citizen to denote the 66 as if to say the 33 weren't citizens either. But that's the nature of labels. I've come to see the politicals in a totally new light. Believe it or not, they are just normal people like you and me. Yes, most are good and then some... not so. But each and every one demands respect. Sometimes that is lost on the general public.

Regrets? I have only one. I broke, for the first time and hopefully last, boardsie most sacred rule, "Don't be a dick". I was overcome with emotion on the given day and had an outburst. It should never have happened. I offer full and unreserved apologies to Mr David Quinn of the Iona Institute, K-9 for having to reprimand me and the wider audience for having to see it. It just shouldn't have happened, there are no excuses.

Now that's out of the way, and it was weighing heavily on my mind since it happened, we have just completed our final weekend as 100 citizens. We are still a convention until March 31, but this is to allow Mr Tom Arnold and his secretariat complete the remaining reports for Government. I'll post the Gov results in the relevant threads, as I receive them.

I have many, many, many people to thank in this process but I'd rather not name names as I run the risk of accidental exclusion. But obviously the 100 [any many iterations], the secretariat everyone on boards that participated or just read the topics and last but by no means least, the Mods, CMods, HMods and Admins who allowed me the opportunity to have the various discussions. Special thanks to Scofflaw for not locking the thread after that first post. Considering the lack of information I posted in that thread, that could very well have happened. So thanks again.

Actually, speaking of the first thread, I actually read through the entirety of this and it made for some very interesting reading. Are the cynics still cynics? Was the convention a success? I think so but it's really for history and the public to make that decision.

We had a very informative tour on Friday of Dáil Eireann and dinner in the TD's and Senators restaurant. That was special. We got to see things and be in pl aces that almost nobody in the country/world have seen or been in. On Saturday night, we had our last dinner where we were presented with various memorabilia as a thank you.

When we broke for lunch on Sunday, a few of us were asked to partake in two debriefs. One was by the academic team. The other was by The secretariat and Chairman. Both were aimed at trying to figure out what worked and what didn't work, for future conventions. About 10 of the 66 attended. Most of those 10 stayed the Sunday night. I was too tired so went home.

So, although we are done, we aren't done. There's a month or so left to so various things. There is a subset of the 100 meeting at Dáil Eireann for a longer tour. It will hopefully happen around Easter, on an early Wednesday morning. The hope being, we will be on the sidelines to see Leaders Questions. That should be special. All of the 100 are invited but I'm sure the group will be small.

I don't want to dirty this thread with hundreds of pictures from the final weekend but for those of you interested in seeing the tour of DE and various pictures of the final dinner night, you can see them here and here. These are Facebook links and I'm sure I have them set to full public. For those of you wondering, Joey is the guy in the Grand Hotel that looked after us. He will be sorely missed by all.

There will also be a video made available to the 100. DVD's will be in the post shortly. In a nutshell, the video shows some of the best bit and worst bits of the entire year of video footage. It's about 20 or 30 minutes long. When it's made available, and if copyright allows, I'll make that available via YouTube and post it here.

At the debriefing, I asked if we came in under budget. We did. I think our budget was about €900,000 [maybe a million]. We came in at around €800,000. I'll post more statistics when I get them.

I can't really think of anything else to say so let's leave it at that. Again, I'll post some small updates to the relevant threads as they happen but they will probably be minor and reports.

Oh, if anyone has any remaining questions about anything to do with the Convention on the Constitution [and I'm sure there are a few], please don't hesitate to ask them below.

Thanks again and Slán.

100 Members
10 Meetings
1 Constitution

Phill Ewinn

RangeR wrote: »

So.... We're done. It's been a long 14-15 months. Many, many, many highs. A few lows. We lost many 66 along the way but we gained a good few more as replacements. I've met many friends both in the 66 and 33. I've always hated the term citizen to denote the 66 as if to say the 33 weren't citizens either. But that's the nature of labels. I've come to see the politicals in a totally new light. Believe it or not, they are just normal people like you and me. Yes, most are good and then some... not so. But each and every one demands respect. Sometimes that is lost on the general public.

Regrets? I have only one. I broke, for the first time and hopefully last, boardsie most sacred rule, "Don't be a dick". I was overcome with emotion on the given day and had an outburst. It should never have happened. I offer full and unreserved apologies to Mr David Quinn of the Iona Institute, K-9 for having to reprimand me and the wider audience for having to see it. It just shouldn't have happened, there are no excuses.

Now that's out of the way, and it was weighing heavily on my mind since it happened, we have just completed our final weekend as 100 citizens. We are still a convention until March 31, but this is to allow Mr Tom Arnold and his secretariat complete the remaining reports for Government. I'll post the Gov results in the relevant threads, as I receive them.

I have many, many, many people to thank in this process but I'd rather not name names as I run the risk of accidental exclusion. But obviously the 100 [any many iterations], the secretariat everyone on boards that participated or just read the topics and last but by no means least, the Mods, CMods, HMods and Admins who allowed me the opportunity to have the various discussions. Special thanks to Scofflaw for not locking the thread after that first post. Considering the lack of information I posted in that thread, that could very well have happened. So thanks again.

Actually, speaking of the first thread, I actually read through the entirety of this and it made for some very interesting reading. Are the cynics still cynics? Was the convention a success? I think so but it's really for history and the public to make that decision.

We had a very informative tour on Friday of Dáil Eireann and dinner in the TD's and Senators restaurant. That was special. We got to see things and be in pl aces that almost nobody in the country/world have seen or been in. On Saturday night, we had our last dinner where we were presented with various memorabilia as a thank you.

When we broke for lunch on Sunday, a few of us were asked to partake in two debriefs. One was by the academic team. The other was by The secretariat and Chairman. Both were aimed at trying to figure out what worked and what didn't work, for future conventions. About 10 of the 66 attended. Most of those 10 stayed the Sunday night. I was too tired so went home.

So, although we are done, we aren't done. There's a month or so left to so various things. There is a subset of the 100 meeting at Dáil Eireann for a longer tour. It will hopefully happen around Easter, on an early Wednesday morning. The hope being, we will be on the sidelines to see Leaders Questions. That should be special. All of the 100 are invited but I'm sure the group will be small.

I don't want to dirty this thread with hundreds of pictures from the final weekend but for those of you interested in seeing the tour of DE and various pictures of the final dinner night, you can see them here and here. These are Facebook links and I'm sure I have them set to full public. For those of you wondering, Joey is the guy in the Grand Hotel that looked after us. He will be sorely missed by all.

There will also be a video made available to the 100. DVD's will be in the post shortly. In a nutshell, the video shows some of the best bit and worst bits of the entire year of video footage. It's about 20 or 30 minutes long. When it's made available, and if copyright allows, I'll make that available via YouTube and post it here.

At the debriefing, I asked if we came in under budget. We did. I think our budget was about €900,000 [maybe a million]. We came in at around €800,000. I'll post more statistics when I get them.

I can't really think of anything else to say so let's leave it at that. Again, I'll post some small updates to the relevant threads as they happen but they will probably be minor and reports.

Oh, if anyone has any remaining questions about anything to do with the Convention on the Constitution [and I'm sure there are a few], please don't hesitate to ask them below.

Thanks again and Slán.

100 Members
10 Meetings
1 Constitution

You sound like people should be happy about this. The opposite is the case. A hodge podge of liberals and narcissists are about to try and put one over on society.

Corkfeen

Ranger, fair play. I haven't responded often but have generally been following your superb posts. You allowed people to give you insights into how to vote but also gave us a fantastic insight into the convention.

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

You sound like people should be happy about this. The opposite is the case. A hodge podge of liberals and narcissists are about to try and put one over on society.

Democracy upset you Phil?

Godge

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

You sound like people should be happy about this. The opposite is the case. A hodge podge of liberals and narcissists are about to try and put one over on society.

Corkfeen wrote: »

Ranger, fair play. I haven't responded often but have generally been following your superb posts. You allowed people to give you insights into how to vote but also gave us a fantastic insight into the convention.


Democracy upset you Phil?

The posts have been interesting and have given some insight into what went on. It is clear that Ranger was not alone in taking on the job conscientiously and going about it the right way.

However, the worry I have with it is that the old saying will come to the fore on the definition of a camel being a horse designed by committee.

RangeR

eMail in

On 28 February 2014 10:57, The Secretariat wrote:
‘morning all,

I trust you have all recovered from the weekend – the feedback indicates that you appeared to have enjoyed yourselves at any rate.......

As promised, please find attached ballot papers which we agreed to issue last weekend:

- Ballot Paper I gives you the opportunity to express a view on the constitutional issues which should receive further consideration by government or otherwise.....to help you, I’m attaching the latest version of the public submissions received and the issues raised at the regional meetings and during the course of our own meetings;

- Ballot Paper II gives you an opportunity to comment on any future Convention, what it might look like etc.........you might like to think about the letter from Mary Lou and the contributions of those who spoke at our final session on Sunday......I have also included a box for you to express your own personal view of the Convention because I’d like to include a chapter in our final report called “Convention Voices” with a selection of your thoughts over the last 15 months.


I’m working to a fairly tight deadline, so I would be grateful if you please return the completed ballot papers to me by 5 p.m. on Wednesday next. You can e-mail them to me, post them to the office in Parnell Square, or Oireachtas members can drop them into the Enquiry Office for my attention.

Couple of other things:
- We’ll have a draft report of the Dail Reform meeting ready on Monday – again I’d be grateful for obs;

- I have over 1,000 photos of last weekend (from the tour of Dail and the Seanad to the Family Photo to selfies with the Chairman – and everything in between).......I’ll find a discreet spot on the website and mail you a link next week.....if you have any which you would like to share, please feel free to send them on......


As always, give me a shout if you need anything,

Kindest regards,

RangeR

eMail in

'evening all,

I’m sure you’ll be delighted to hear that this is the last time I’ll be sending you something to read........

As promised, please find attached the latest draft of the Conclusions and Final Recommendations report - this report is different because it's written based purely on what you said to us (in the last 2 ballots) and the Chairman’s thoughts about the last 18 months or so..........

Grateful for obs, suggestions etc. by Monday evening next - we hope to publish our final 3 reports on Thursday, 27th March, before we bring the curtain down for good in 12 days time.......

Best wishes,

RangeR

Just a small snip from the above document, for those that just browse over.

Page 15 wrote:

Convention Voices

This chapter captures the final thoughts and observations of the citizens and politicians after their 16-month journey as members of Ireland’s first Convention on the Constitution.

“I will never forget my time on the Convention with a brilliant group of well-meaning strangers who eventually became good friends. It has definitely been the most rewarding experience of my life.”

“I hope that this form of direct democracy will lead to a better opinion of decision-making by members of the public and greater citizen involvement on the political process.”

“I enjoyed the experience and it has made me want to get more involved with things rather than being a spectator.”

“On a personal level, I enjoyed my participation immensely – I learned quite a lot and met some wonderful people.”

“I have a new-found respect for TDs and Senators for all the work they do and try to do and their contribution to the Convention discussions.”

“I got hugged by a stranger at the press conference after the same-sex marriage weekend – I know how important some of these constitutional issues were to people in this country.”

“I learned an awful lot about politics and topics I never knew much about, which I found fascinating.”

“The interaction between politicians and citizens was excellent – I was amazed at the long hours they work – their lives are public property but they love it!!”

“At the start I wasn’t sure what I was getting involved in but as time went on, I realised how important it was to many people and I now have opinions on subjects I would never have thought about.”

“The power of open, reasoned and informed discussion was brought home to me on 3 occasions when I ended up voting the opposite way to what I had intended at the start of the weekend.”

“I admit to feeling a bit envious of those who might be eligible to partake in any future convention.”

“Any cynicism I had towards politicians has disappeared now that I realise that their role demands hard work and empathy and a lot of other qualities.”

“I was continually amazed at our belief in our abilities to work through complicated constitutional issues and arrive at a result which reflected the views of participants.”
“After many years, I FINALLY have something to brag to the neighbours about.”

“Giving up a few weekends seems like a small price to pay for the experience and the memories it has given me.”

“It wasn’t always fun and games, at times the topics were quite heavy, discussions became heated and we’ve had a few emotional moments along the way – these memories will last a lifetime.”

“With little knowledge of politics or the constitution, I found that it was made easy for us to understand – I was never made feel ridiculous and everyone was approachable.”

“We ended up with a real sense of community and many friendships were made that will last long into the future.”

“The highlight for me was Finbarr in a Spiderman Onesie!!” (at dinner for our weekend meeting at Hallowe’en)

“I had never previously done any public speaking so the Convention helped my develop my confidence and find my voice.”

“The experience opened my mind and I am proud to say it was my small part to serve my country.”

“As a retired person, it gave me the brainstorming challenge that I have not had for some time.”

“Even though I never stood up to talk, I knew that every opinion I gave at the table was included in the feedback and as a result I felt that I participated as much as those who spoke in the public sessions.”

“Young people are often forgotten or ignored when it comes to changing rules and I believe that having people in the 18-24 bracket definitely added to the debate.”

“It highlights the need for ongoing constitutional review and appropriate reform to reflect societal changes in Ireland.”

“It made me realise that my view of the world is just that and is no more right or wrong than the next person’s – a great learning experience for me.”

“In some small way, I feel a link to those wise men who originally hammered out a remarkable set of basic laws for a new State.”

“There is so much that I learned from the experience – I was, quite simply, hooked.”

“I feel empowered to continue on with this journey and get involved in organisations who campaign for change, for equality for all and who make a difference.”

“I am proud of our people and was very encouraged to have seen a glimpse of the future of our country when the younger people came to talk to us about different matters.”

“A REAL exercise in REAL democracy - We had votes without a whip system – and the sky didn’t fall.”

“I’d like to thank everyone who was involved – I am going to miss you all.”

expectationlost

so that's around 60 people convinced politicians and politics is wonderful what about the other 4.5 million?

expectationlost

final reports on dail reform, economic and social rights and proposals for discussion in future convention released today on site http://www.constitution.ie

Sierra Oscar

Has the government responded to the more recent recommendations made by the convention? I know that they have already responded to some of the issues such as voting age, but I can't find any sort of official response to the Dáil electoral reform recommendations.

expectationlost

not yet http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-04-01a.202&s=%22constitutional+convention%22#g292

RangeR

As a direct result of our work in the Convention on the Constitution 2012-2014, and our dealings with all involved, both myself and Sorcha have joined Sinn Féin. Sorcha is running for local elections. Obviously I won't say any more about that for fear of canvassing

I haven't heard of any of the other 66 having joined politics.

RangeR

eMail in. Photo Distribution

The 100 and staff. Unfortunately, not all 100 attended the photo shoot in time. We are missing two or three.



The man, himself



The Secretariat

RangeR

More eMails in. There are now too many photos to display here without annoying people.


All photos are now here [Google Drive], for those who want to see them.

Two, if I may. much earlier on this thread, I alluded to, or came right out and said, that on day one in Dublin Castle, I shook Enda's hand and wouldn't let it go for about 20 or 30 seconds.

This is the actual pic. I held his hand tight

Cookie_Monster

That's a very old looking group overall, was there an equal split of ages?

RangeR

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

That's a very old looking group overall, was there an equal split of ages?

Yes, the youngest guy was just over 18 years old. In the group shot, he's the guy just left of and in front of the guy in the Green jumper.

Hotblack Desiato

RangeR wrote: »

100 Members
10 Meetings
1 Constitution

1 'Most Holy Trinity', from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred... (Preamble)

1 'Almighty God' which the State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to and shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion. (Article 44)

Religious discrimination in education and state funding of indoctrination given a free pass by Article 42.

Religious orders walking away from their financial responsibilities to abuse victims, again citing Article 44.


I can't believe that the convention concluded that the separation of church and state was not even worthy of discussion.

Xantia

RangeR wrote: »

As a direct result of our work in the Convention on the Constitution 2012-2014, and our dealings with all involved, both myself and Sorcha have joined Sinn Féin. Sorcha is running for local elections. Obviously I won't say any more about that for fear of canvassing

I haven't heard of any of the other 66 having joined politics.

I commend you on your work and your decision to join a political party, well done.
On a previous post I tried to outline a problem (not very well) so here goes again.

Recently I moved house, and went to the local council with forms filled in for us to 'move our vote'.
Firstly they somehow juxtaposed some of our home address and it is now incorrect.
But more worryingly this morning I received a handwritten letter from the local FF councillor, with the juxtaposed address on it looking for my/our vote.

I did tick the box that stops the register from being used for 'other purpose' but it seems to no avail.

In my opinion the voting register needs to be independent and removed from the remit of local councils.
Another quango? well if it gets the job done on a fair and impartial way.

Other people I know would not dream of going to a council office in fear of drawing attention to themselves.
Surely it is about time that the register of electors is treated correctly.

Thanks for your time and good luck with your endeavours.

expectationlost

in response to yerone the catholic democrat who said among other things that they wanted to remove the mother from the constitution which partly true

https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?mid=cee1b183-0b79-e211-a5a0-005056a32ee4 convention suggested changing constitution from mother to parent

In the event that the Convention supports change, what change or
changes would you support?
•
Make it gender neutral to include other carers in the home
•
Yes
-
98%
•
No
-
2 %

Noting that Art. 41.2.2 says ‘The State shall, ...
endeavour to ensure that [mothers] shall not be
obliged by economic necessity to engage in
labour to
the neglect of their duties in the home’, what level of
obligation should be placed on the State?

1-Endeavour to support- 20%
2-4%
3-Provide a reasonable level of support -35%
4-12%
5-Shall support -30%

um not sure what 2 and 4 mean, is it just a range of support 1-5, and middle level of support got the highest percentage

ranger do you have the ballot, i emailed the convention to ask but no response yet

expectationlost

the one thing that bothers me about this is the simple majority voting that was applied, think its a bit crude when it comes to idea formation, they should have gone with a method that people to express a preference to a number of ideas if they main option didn't win, i think they dealt with this by having two or 3 step questions but im not sure its fair

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

in response to yerone the catholic democrat who said among other things that they wanted to remove the mother from the constitution which partly true

https://www.constitution.ie/AttachmentDownload.ashx?mid=cee1b183-0b79-e211-a5a0-005056a32ee4 convention suggested changing constitution from mother to parent



um not sure what 2 and 4 mean, is it just a range of support 1-5, and middle level of support got the highest percentage

ranger do you have the ballot, i emailed the convention to ask but no response yet

Chances of getting a response would be minimal. I'm not sure if there is any funding left to fund staff of Ccven. Legally, we disbanded on march 31st.

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

the one thing that bothers me about this is the simple majority voting that was applied, think its a bit crude when it comes to idea formation, they should have gone with a method that people to express a preference to a number of ideas if they main option didn't win, i think they dealt with this by having two or 3 step questions but im not sure its fair

Most or all of out votes were construed in this way. Its a majority vote. But if your option does win in question 1, question 2 asks how you would like to continue. Not sure how you think this is otherwise. I spelt it out in the relevant threads.

RangeR

So it turns out now that the Constitutional Convention has been disbanded, gov.ie are late on 3 submission reports. I'll be keeping a close eye on this.



As an aside but related, Sorcha O'Neill [my partner and one of the 66] got elected on first count at the weekend.

RangeR

Just to make a note of the dates. The remaining reports and their due dates. I don't have the exact dates but got the below estimates from May Lou's question.

Report Due Dates
December 2013 : Dáil electoral reform
April 2014 : Voting rights for citizens outside the State
End May 2014 : Blasphemy

Mary Lou McDonald wrote:

It is an important issue and the Taoiseach raised it.

On previous occasions I have raised the matter of the Cooke report and inquired as to when it will be delivered to the Taoiseach. We have received different responses from various members of Government in respect of this report. We were originally informed that it was imminent and then that this was not the case. Is the Taoiseach in a position to indicate when he expects delivery of the report?

We were informed some time ago that the regulation of lobbying Bill would not only be published but substantially progressed before the summer recess.
Yet, it has not been published, despite the fact that the heads of the Bill were published almost one year ago. Can the Taoiseach explain the delay? Like the rest of us I am sure the Taoiseach will appreciate the urgency of the legislation, not least given the high-profile controversies around various lobbyists.

Will the Taoiseach comment on the debates and the Government's official responses to the Constitutional Convention's fourth report on Dáil electoral reform, which was due last December? It is now five months late. What is the response to the convention's fifth report on voting rights for citizens outside the State, which was due over one month ago? Yesterday was the deadline for the Government's response to the sixth report on blasphemy. Can the Taoiseach explain the delay and confirm that these reports will be debated separately in the House?

An Taoiseach, Enda Kenny wrote:

They will be discussed separately. I expect that in the next fortnight. It is simply a question of pressure of time for dealing with legislation, I suppose, that has caused these things. However, in the next fortnight we will discuss the two of them separately.

The heads of the regulation of lobbying Bill were published almost one year ago. It has been progressed substantially. It is to be published in this session. In order to be fair and to show to her that I am competent I will send Deputy McDonald a report on the current state of preparation of the Bill. Did she hear that?

carpejugulum

ninja900 wrote: »

1 'Most Holy Trinity', from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred... (Preamble)

1 'Almighty God' which the State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to and shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion. (Article 44)

Religious discrimination in education and state funding of indoctrination given a free pass by Article 42.

Religious orders walking away from their financial responsibilities to abuse victims, again citing Article 44.


I can't believe that the convention concluded that the separation of church and state was not even worthy of discussion.

It's a disgrace.

RangeR

carpejugulum wrote: »

It's a disgrace.

What's a disgrace?