Constitutional Convention

RangeR

When you're in, your a guest
When you're out, you're a pest.

I suppose.

carpejugulum

RangeR wrote: »

What's a disgrace?

Why wasn't the separation of church and state one of the main topics?

RangeR

carpejugulum wrote: »

Why wasn't the separation of church and state one of the main topics?

We could only operate within the terms of reference, which were set by Gov.ie. This has been discussed many, many times.

We also DID discuss the separation on a few weekends, as a smaller part of other topics, which was our right to do. We incorporated it as much as we could, bound by our terms of reference.

petronius

Constitutional Convention was a Joke, since it was controlled directed by the political class
-
Why was the Abortion Laws not reviewed for possible tweaking legally and not by a whipped government bill.
Why was genuine Dail or Seanad reform not considered, ending the punch and judy show
Dhondt on committees (or Jefferson System)?
Extension of voting rights to the Diaspora, participation of Irish Citizens in the North in Presidential and Referenda elections
-
while the irish constitution is one of the oldest surviving and most successful constitutions we should consider amendments carefully where we can refine it - and not butcher it with a series of amendments

RangeR

petronius wrote: »

Constitutional Convention was a Joke, since it was controlled directed by the political class
-
Why was the Abortion Laws not reviewed for possible tweaking legally and not by a whipped government bill.
Why was genuine Dail or Seanad reform not considered, ending the punch and judy show
Dhondt on committees (or Jefferson System)?
Extension of voting rights to the Diaspora, participation of Irish Citizens in the North in Presidential and Referenda elections
-

To be fair... none of what you have said above is true.

expectationlost

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-06-24a.98&s=speaker%3A119#g100.q

I propose to take Questions Nos. 104, 105 and 116 together.
The Convention on the Constitution published a total of nine reports. The Government is committed to responding to each report in the Oireachtas and, if accepting a recommendation for an amendment of the Constitution, to indicating the timescale it envisages for any related referendum.
The Government has responded in the Dáil to the first three reports of the Convention. The fourth report dealt mainly with electoral matters and these are for the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government; the remaining aspects are for my Department. The Government has already announced that it has accepted the recommendation in the fourth report that an Electoral Commission be established.
The fifth report deals with the question of votes in Presidential elections for citizens living outside the State and is being considered by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government, while the sixth report, on removal of the mention of blasphemy in the Constitution, is being considered by the Department of Justice and Equality.
The seventh, eighth and ninth reports respectively contain recommendations concerning Dáil reform, inclusion of certain rights in the Constitution, and items that might be considered by a further Convention if it were decided to establish one. Dáil reform is, as the Deputies will be aware, led from my Department, while the other items would obviously require consideration by a number of Departments.
The Government hopes to respond to the fourth, fifth and sixth reports in the near future and to the later reports in the autumn. With regard to the establishment of task forces, I do not propose to anticipate the outcome of the Government’s deliberations on the reports.

so how long are each of these reports delayed going to to be late?

RangeR

Looks like Government pushed out the remaining reports until the autumn. But no guarantee.

Here's the video montage that we were shown on our final night, for those interested. Don't be put off by the first 90 seconds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oIoAvW9qeiI

expectationlost

Gender-neutral version of 'woman in home' clause to go to public vote - See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/genderneutral-version-of-woman-in-home-clause-to-go-to-public-vote-30431301.html#sthash.VlEFPYHx.dpuf

Article 42.1 says "that mothers shall not be obliged by economic necessity to engage in labour to neglect of their duties in the home".

But the Constitutional Convention previously voted to change the article, with 98pc supporting a proposal to make it gender neutral.

Alternative

"The convention itself did not offer an alternative text. What it did indicate, and what has been accepted by the Government, is that any new text should be gender neutral," a member of the Irish delegation said yesterday.

"They also made further recommendations that any new text might include other carers in the home, and might also include carers beyond the home."

He said a special task force looking at this issue will report back by the end of October.

- See more at: http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/politics/genderneutral-version-of-woman-in-home-clause-to-go-to-public-vote-30431301.html#sthash.VlEFPYHx.dpuf

the previous constitutional review groups did suggest changes didn't they

expectationlost

http://www.kildarestreet.com/wrans/?id=2014-07-15a.227&s=%22Constitutional+Convention%22#g228.q autumn

expectationlost

Burton calls for regular Constitutional Convention http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0721/632136-burton-calls-for-regular-constitutional-convention/

She said the convention was a Labour Party idea and it had set out the template of how to review the Constitution in a careful, deliberative and democratic manner.

a labour idea really? who in labour exactly?

Annasopra

expectationlost wrote: »

Burton calls for regular Constitutional Convention http://www.rte.ie/news/2014/0721/632136-burton-calls-for-regular-constitutional-convention/

a labour idea really? who in labour exactly?

Brendan Howlin

expectationlost

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Brendan Howlin

interesting and where did brendan howlin get the idea?

Annasopra

expectationlost wrote: »

interesting and where did brendan howlin get the idea?

The policy document is here

http://www.labour.ie/policy/listing/12943264241775893.html

expectationlost

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The policy document is here

http://www.labour.ie/policy/listing/12943264241775893.html

he conjured this idea out of his own head as if a constitutional convention had never happened before anywhere?

expectationlost

still waiting on those last reports kenny says departments still deliberating http://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-09-17a.266&s=%22Constitutional+Convention%22#g357

RangeR

As a member of the Constitutional Convention, I fear that there is no longer an appetite in Government to complete the outstanding reports. I have asked a few TD's for updates, there were no responses. This makes a farce of the time we put in to the process since 2012.

I've seen a little bit of chatter in the past month or two, but as mentioned before, every time the missing reports are asked for, An Taoiseach pushes it down the road. Hard not to feel a slight kick in the teeth.

Here is some brief, if slightly irrelevant chatter. Irrelevent, because the reports are done. Referendum is up to Gov.ie. Give us the reports so we can finally rest.




https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-10-21a.269#g305

Gerry Adams wrote:

I note from the Taoiseach's remarks that he met a wide range of young people from all over Ireland. In terms of the notion of developing a relationship with the Irish abroad, and in this case in the USA, did the Taoiseach raise with those young people, for example, the fact that the Constitutional Convention has voted in support of granting a vote to the Irish diaspora as well as to people in the North? The Taoiseach will know that An Teachta Crowe and myself have introduced a constitutional (amendment) Bill 2014 to give legislative form to the Constitutional Convention recommendation. Did the Taoiseach have a chance to explore this? We have a duty of care to these people and they are mostly young people. It is not their fault that they are where they are.

Enda Kenny wrote:

Minister of State Deputy Deenihan is working on a paper on the diaspora, as is the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government arising from the report of the Constitutional Convention on this subject. Let us see what both papers will produce.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-10-16a.424&s=convention#g482

Caoimhghín Ó Caol&#225 wrote: »

The Government reform plan is pathetic, while Fianna Fáil, which failed to do anything when it had the opportunity, would now hardly change a jot. Government Members will recall that the final report of the Constitutional Convention, upon which the Government has yet to make its position known and Dáil time available for debate, recommended the establishment of a fresh convention with a comprehensive constitutional reform mandate, to consider a range of issues, including Seanad reform. Indeed, Seanad reform was one of the priority issues the convention short-listed for emphasis during its final deliberations, as a mark of respect to the people's recent verdict in the referendum. The Government should demonstrate by its actions that it respects the convention and, by extension, that it respects the people, and establish a second Constitutional Convention with an explicit mandate for Seanad reform. I hope the Chief Whip will share my serious proposition with his colleagues in the Cabinet. Hopefully, he will be an advocate for such a step to be taken. There is unanimity across the House on the value of the Constitutional Convention process. That has been well demonstrated and acknowledged. A reconstituted Constitutional Convention with an explicit mandate to address Seanad reform would make a worthwhile contribution to this overall project.

Given the pathetic track record of all the establishment parties on this issue, we would have much greater confidence in the ability of citizens to formulate Seanad reform proposals that are meaningful, workable and can command broad popular support. Certainly, we have no confidence that the other parties have the will to do so. Why refer the matter to the Constitutional Convention when Sinn Fein has its own proposals? If Sinn Féin were in government, we would take our lead from such a citizen-dominated body. Through this and other fora, we would engage with the citizens directly and seek their views on the sufficiency of our reform proposals. While we are confident that our plans stand up to scrutiny, we equally recognise that ordinary citizens can make their own astute observations and contribute valuable additional ideas, perspectives and nuance that can enhance the proposals we have formulated. We would welcome such input. We are not afraid of the people.

We therefore once again urge the Government to mandate a fresh Constitutional Convention, comprised of a demographically representative citizen majority and an elected representative minority, to deliberate and make its considered recommendations on Seanad reform as an issue of fundamental public importance. The Government must now act on Seanad reform in a meaningful way. The first thing it could do is withdraw its amendment and support the proposition in the Sinn Féin motion. Tacagaí linn Seanad níos cothroma a chur ar fáil.

https://www.kildarestreet.com/debates/?id=2014-10-08a.274#g505

In milder tones, I was happy to be involved in considering a range of issues that were debated at the Constitutional Convention, an important forum that was set up by the Taoiseach and the then Tánaiste. When can we expect some of the recommendations passed by the convention to be before the Dáil, for example, the amendment of the Constitution to lower the voting age to 16 years and the eligible age of candidates in a presidential election to 21 years?

Enda Kenny wrote:

There is, a Cheann Comhairle, in the sense that the Government is committed to a number of referenda next year. Ones that we are committed to are two of those that the Deputy raised, so legislation will have to be produced. Obviously, we will have to set up a referendum commission. We also committed, of course, to the marriage equality referendum.

expectationlost

RangeR wrote: »

As a member of the Constitutional Convention, I fear that there is no longer an appetite in Government to complete the outstanding reports. I have asked a few TD's for updates, there were no responses. This makes a farce of the time we put in to the process since 2012.

I've seen a little bit of chatter in the past month or two, but as mentioned before, every time the missing reports are asked for, An Taoiseach pushes it down the road. Hard not to feel a slight kick in the teeth.

Here is some brief, if slightly irrelevant chatter. Irrelevent, because the reports are done. Referendum is up to Gov.ie. Give us the reports so we can finally rest.

how many people do you think have read the reports that have been put out?

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

how many people do you think have read the reports that have been put out?

I have no idea but it's not relevant? The reports need to be published.

expectationlost

RangeR wrote: »

I have no idea but it's not relevant? The reports need to be published.

I wasn't placing the publishing of the reports on a condition in regard to how many people have read the ones already published.

RangeR

Too much to quote here but pretty much all party support of Government releasing the reports, and more pushing down the line.

If reports aren't published by end of year, very early next year, I hope to make this more public. Gov.ie have only formally reported on three of the 10+ submissions by The Convention on the Constitution. That's well out of order, in my book.

petronius

Constitutional Convention was just a charade by the government who set the parameters and assigned hacks and their people to steer it the way they wanted, it was dominated by the labour party ethos.
It was never going to disagree with the coalitions policies
Its remit was to do a few things,
look as though the government was actually doing something,
appear to be politically correct
rubber stamp a referendum on gay marriage, a sop to the labour party!
say nice things about the role of women in politics,
but anything tangible like reform of the seanad was prevented by the government since they just wanted it abolished
representation for northern voters
voting rights for emigrants
breaking the whip system in the Dail making it a forum for input from all public representatives and not

Hotblack Desiato

petronius wrote: »

it was dominated by the labour party ethos.

Balls. It decided not to discuss the separation of church and state, even though that issue had the most popular support.

look as though the government was actually doing something,

You are correct there incredible and ludicrous that we will come out of this process with 96% of primary schools still free to indoctrinate in a particular religion and to discriminate in employment of teachers and enrolment of pupils purely on the basis of religion. This is unacceptable in a state which is supposedly a secular democracy.

rubber stamp a referendum on gay marriage, a sop to the labour party!

It's still open to the people to reject it. Unfortunately for you, that's unlikely

RangeR

eMail in.

On 19 November 2014 15:12, wrote:
Dear Keith

I hope you are keeping well and enjoying your free weekends since February last!

Please find attached an invitation to you from the Taoiseach to a reception to acknowledge the work of the members of the Convention which will be held in Government Buildings on Tuesday 2 December at 6.30pm.

As you will see from the invitation, you should respond directly to the Department of the Taoiseach (by email or by phone) with your acceptance or regrets. Of course, should you have any questions about this please don’t hesitate to contact me at the my numbers below.

Best regards

The Taoiseach, Mr. Enda Kenny, T.D. ,

requests the pleasure of your company

in the Department of the Taoiseach,

to acknowledge the work

of the Convention on the Constitution

on Tuesday, 2nd December, 2014

from 6.30pm to 8.00pm

at a Reception

Government Buildings,

expectationlost

RangeR wrote: »

eMail in.

so they better have the reports all out by then!

RangeR

Apologies, I've never posted private contact details before. It was an accident and has been edited. Would appreciate the same. Fair is fair.

expectationlost wrote: »

so they better have the reports all out by then!

You would hope so, but I doubt it. I don't think I'll be staying quiet about it, at the reception.

expectationlost

RangeR wrote: »

Apologies, I've never posted private contact details before. It was an accident and has been edited. Would appreciate the same. Fair is fair.



You would hope so, but I doubt it. I don't think I'll be staying quiet about it, at the reception.

I forgot about this how did it go? I see where he ended up that night https://twitter.com/jerrybuttimer/status/539897414254342144

doesn't look like such a party earlier https://twitter.com/xPaulaSx/status/539866120644460545

RadharcAilainn

The whole constitutional convention is, well, pretty unconstitutional.

It's a sop to the Labour Party. Who are increasingly, an irrelevance.

RangeR

expectationlost wrote: »

I forgot about this how did it go? I see where he ended up that night https://twitter.com/jerrybuttimer/status/539897414254342144

doesn't look like such a party earlier https://twitter.com/xPaulaSx/status/539866120644460545

Yup, sorry. Don't do much of boards anymore. Yeah, we spent much of our night with Paula. I think it's fair to say, there wasn't much enthusiasm in the room, other than we were all happy to see each other again.

I was persuaded to not make a public show of disappointment, even when An T made the scandalous statement that the Troika were the main reason that the reports aren't ready. Like... They're gone a really long time now. He didn't stay for too long after his speech either. He left around 8:30 and, as we know, ended up in a close by establishment.

However, I did have a few private words with one of the senior FG politicians present. He assured me that we will see all reports by St. Patrick's Day.

Won't be commenting on RadharcAilainn's comment per say. However, I'd be happy to discuss the Convention with you, if you REALLY want but not if you're just going to use throw away comments that make no sense. There was nothing un-constitutional with the convention. Controversial to some, granted, but not un-constitutional.

RangeR

RangeR wrote: »

However, I did have a few private words with one of the senior FG politicians present. He assured me that we will see all reports by St. Patrick's Day.

Was listening to the radio this morning, a lot of talk about referendums. Reminded me of a comment said FG member above also said in the private words.

In relation to voting age be lowered to 16. Gov.ie won't let that fly. High probability that they will word it as lowered to 17 years old only. Gov.ie think that most voters will not vote for the referendum of we put 16 forward.

Sure Gov.ie have their finger on the pulse, right?

Hotblack Desiato

What justification is there for giving people who are not adults the vote? We don't even trust them to buy a drink.