Request For Feedback: Bullying

LoLth

Scioch wrote: »

I'm sure its already been mentioned (only seeing this now) but the only real thing that comes close to bullying that I've seen would be people thanking abusive posts.

Its happened to me but I wouldnt take it to heart. But I could see how someone would. You get 5-6 people maybe more thanking verbal abuse towards you particularly name calling and its not nice, if there was previous between you and someone who thanks it then it can go one stage further too. And only one person is gonna get done for it and all the rest of them get a free insult basically.

on this, I have personally dealt with this issue on boards in the past. it doesnt go unnoticed and I have always treated the "thanks" system as a shortened version of a post. Abusing the thanks system to support bullying is, imho, just as bad as posting to bully someone in the first place. They dont get a "free-insult" - but that does not , in any way , mean that everyone who thanks a single post made by someone who is later found to be bullying is automatically considered a bully themselves.

LoLth

[-0-] wrote: »

Bullying is very subjective. One person may see something as an attempt at bullying, while another could see it as joking around. It's difficult to try to understand what is going on between two people in a conversation - you are not them, however if someone feels they are the victim of bullying then that should certainly be reported and acted upon.

hence the need to have a tighter definition of what is and is not bullying so users can recognise it when they see it and when they experience it. There is a line between someone disagreeing with a poster and someone bullying that poster and a lot of the time the poster needs to be the one to know the difference. A pet hate of mine is the "I'm being bullied" defense used by users that deliberately stir **** and then have to suffer a backlash, thats not bullying, thats an expected consequence of actiosn borne of stupidity or a lack of basic social skills. (or just a delusional "its not me, its THEM" response)

K-9

LoLth wrote: »

hence the need to have a tighter definition of what is and is not bullying so users can recognise it when they see it and when they experience it. There is a line between someone disagreeing with a poster and someone bullying that poster and a lot of the time the poster needs to be the one to know the difference. A pet hate of mine is the "I'm being bullied" defense used by users that deliberately stir **** and then have to suffer a backlash, thats not bullying, thats an expected consequence of actiosn borne of stupidity or a lack of basic social skills. (or just a delusional "its not me, its THEM" response)

Something the site has cracked down on is grammar nazism, correcting spelling, that type of stuff. I don't mind it in one off posts but when posters continuously bring it up in disagreements it's bullying. Again, unless mods are made aware of continuous bullying we aren't going to be aware of it, we've a thread on this in the AH mods forum but unless users report bullying from other forums as well we aren't going to be aware of it 99.99% of the time, the site is just too big.

DEFTLEFTHAND

brimal wrote: »

Why is this user not banned from the whole site? This is a disgusting post.

Referring to Jews as a "species", constant use of "these people" and "we all know they cause trouble" - stuff like this should get a permanent ban.

I was temporarily banned for this comment, the mod did his job correctly. Another user brought this up with me recently. The comment was made when I was heavily intoxicated, It was made months ago and I apologise for any offence caused. I can't undo what I said and I agree that I need to mellow out big time when it comes to discussing this topic.

Pawwed Rig

Unfortunately for you what is written online cannot be retracted as it is there for everyone to see for the long term. Many will come across your Jewish rant post but few will never see the retraction/apology.

The same issue arose recently where a mod went into an anti Irish sectarian rant. He was infracted in the forum but is still modding a different forum. The rant is there for everyone to see.

While I personally would accept your retraction, I believe in racism cases permanent bans should be handed out.

Debator

I agree with the above poster. I applaud DeftLeftHand's apology, but once a comment or photo is uploaded onto the internet, it's there forever. Don't forget that nobody is truly anonymous on the internet, so let's hope that particular post doesn't come back to haunt you.

The anti-Semitic rant by DeftLeftHand was made at 7:01am. If he really was "heavily intoxicated" that early in the morning, then he should seek help. That is not a sly dig, it's genuine advice from a concerned poster. The "I was drunk, your honour" excuse doesn't really wash with me. Alcohol merely releases your inhibitions and you only reveal your true thoughts.

My name is URL

Debator wrote: »

The anti-Semitic rant by DeftLeftHand was made at 7:01am. If he really was "heavily intoxicated" that early in the morning, then he should seek help. That is not a sly dig, it's genuine advice from a concerned poster. The "I was drunk, your honour" excuse doesn't really wash with me. Alcohol merely releases your inhibitions and you only reveal your true thoughts.

7.01 AM Irish time. You don't know which part of the world or in what time-zone the poster is.

He was dealt with on the thread and has apologized, which is more than most people do after causing offense to others. Rise above it and let it go.

Doc Ruby

Just on the bullying thing, are there any notions about dealing with abuse when it spills outside of boards? I know one lad who got a stalker on his facebook and twitter accounts due to his (inoffensive) posts here, he ended up closing his account entirely. Some of these types are clever enough to avoid confrontation here where it can be easily dealt with and instead attack through other avenues they can find, despite it starting here.

C.K Dexter Haven

Bullying is repeated aggressive behaviour directed towards another - what's challenging on a site like boards, is that because most forums are either well run and moderated, or, certain forums expect posters to have a bit of thick skin before posting there- a lot of the bullying behaviour won't be apparent - a lot happens behind the scenes via PM-I.e - a couple of posters can plot behind the scenes out of sight of forums and mods- how it manifests itself on visible posts in forums, are things like pointed snide comments, but usually lacking reference to the target poster of the bullying- a "clever" way for the bully to remain below the radar and much harder for the victim of bullying to raise these comments as a bullying issue.

It's hard for some posters, to remain there if they become targets of such trolls or baiters- however, it does happen - maybe some guidance could be developed for BOTH parties in such situations I.e.

step 1 - PM the person you believe is baiting or bullying you and ask them to stop or to come to an agreement or try and explore and talk out the issues yourselves first.

Step 2 - if step one fails, PM Mod or admin for facilitation/ - this doesn't mean the mod has to agree with you or will "punish" the other poster - it means that the situation has got to a stage that at least one of you feel they cannot continue posting in a forum/ boards without fear of bullying- but there's still a chance to work something out. I.e. facilitation.

Questions to the complainant could be something like:
What would make you happier then you are right now?
What behaviour would you like x poster to stop doing?
What would you settle for to keep the peace in this forum and feel confident to continue posting?

Questions to the "bully" could include:

Now that you know the complaint, what do you volunteer to do differently?
How do you think this situation has arisen?
Is there anything you can suggest to change this situation for the better for all?

The above questions may help a particular situation if asked by a mod/admin to posters who had a grievance of some kind and may help to move to a solution focused result?

LoLth

Just a quick update to let users know that this thread wasnt just lip service. We really did need the feedback and the vast majority of what was posted was very much appreciated.

There has been quite a bit of discussion on this behind the scenes and it has continued since this thread went quiet. There will be another update to this thread soon(ish) to let oyu know the outcome of that discussion as I really would like the contributors to see the results of their input and hopefully be proud of what they helped achieve (ok, maybe "proud" is too strong a word or makes it overly important..it is, at the end of the day, a rule on a website and not a solution for the real world..but you know what I mean).

In the meantime, one of the admins recently brought this article to my attention and I found it to be a very interesting read:

http://www.popehat.com/2013/02/13/bully-means-just-what-i-choose-it-to-mean-neither-more-nor-less/


synopsis: its about how the term "bully" and "bullying" has been watered down to somethign less definitive over the years and how it is now being adopted by those actually attempting to perform an act of bullying of their own. Worth a read, even if you dont agree with it, if only to raise awareness of the potential problems of deliberate false alarms once the policy is finalised.

P_1

Interesting article, many thanks for sharing it.

May as well throw my own 2 cent coin to the mix (I hear you now' Oh Jaysus, here's that P_1 fool out spouting nonsense again' :pac: )

An immediate concern I would have would be people being misinterpreted as bulling when they are actually trying to get an argument across.

What I mean by that is that some people may find it harder to articulate an argument in the written form than they would in do so in the spoken form.
When you post something here, it stays up for all entirety (well until the servers blow up or something) and what you may well have intended as a well reasoned, civilised argument, another person may consider that bullying.

Just something to be aware of before any hard or fast 'policy' is set in stone.

looksee

I don't really see how one argument can be seen as bullying. It has to be persistent to be bullying, or possibly in a one-off situation, using some aspect of the other person's personality to taunt them.

clairefontaine

P_1 wrote: »

Interesting article, many thanks for sharing it.

May as well throw my own 2 cent coin to the mix (I hear you now' Oh Jaysus, here's that P_1 fool out spouting nonsense again' :pac: )

An immediate concern I would have would be people being misinterpreted as bulling when they are actually trying to get an argument across.

What I mean by that is that some people may find it harder to articulate an argument in the written form than they would in do so in the spoken form.
When you post something here, it stays up for all entirety (well until the servers blow up or something) and what you may well have intended as a well reasoned, civilised argument, another person may consider that bullying.

Just something to be aware of before any hard or fast 'policy' is set in stone.

Yes it can be hard and it can be even harder when someone is more interesting in "winning" or dominating rather than understanding what your argument is.

On the other hand, saying your argument over and over again and shouting others down, until you wear others out, is pretty obnoxious.

There is a certain amount of relativity in the terminology, so I suppose each user has to know their own limits and walk away from an argument or a board when they see behaviour they don't like but that behaviour is endorced by the moderators or the forum charter.

This is not like school where you are obliged to go and there is no out. You can leave and walk from discussions or debates. That would be my take on it. Sure it may not feel fair, and it probably isn't, but you have to examine what you tolerate.

If it gets too hard to say things because people shout you down or deliberately try to rewrite your opinion or because its over regulated than the place loses out on a lot.

Edit: Comment on the article. Yes it is interesting and I see his point. However, he grew up in the 80s, before PC, before everyone got sensitised, and before anyone heard the term "zero tolerance." It's a different age now, and people have different expectations, probably still in negotiation of what is ok and what isn't. Some of the commentary in response to the article is very interesting too.

I would also say that it's a shame if you have to call something bullying for it to warrant any action in the first place. That is how the term ends up getting watered down. People use it to get some attention to something they feel needs attention because otherwise it would be ignored.