Pub Licence

Tomjim

Anyone know thwe current value of a pub licence

RATM

Would be interested to know myself. I think they are circa €80k€90kish but I could be wrong. They are defintely no-where near the €300k they were in the boom, that's for sure.

rainbowdash

I think I saw a pub for sale for €100k recently, including the premises and the Licence!

Bicky

Going rate this time last year was 70k.
Right now I am not sure. However a solicitor I spoke to recently said he seen one advertised for 60k.
With pubs closing on a regular basis they will continue to drop IMO.

Bosley

They can be picked up for as little as 30-40k.

Bicky

Where did you get that figure?
Not that I don't believe you, but I have never heard that low a price.

Tunage

Hello,
I'm really sorry to hijack this thread but I have a question that is similar to the subject.

Long story short, may be in line to lease a pub, with other complications aside, does anyone know how much it costs to transfer the licence into someone elses name or does that even happen?

Thanks, (and sorry again)

Bosley

Bicky wrote: »

Where did you get that figure?
Not that I don't believe you, but I have never heard that low a price.

NAMA sold off some licences recently as they couldn't find buyers for the pubs. They sold licences (1) for 30k and (1) for 42k. They then sold the premises as de-licenced.

Bosley

Tunage wrote: »

Hello,
I'm really sorry to hijack this thread but I have a question that is similar to the subject.

Long story short, may be in line to lease a pub, with other complications aside, does anyone know how much it costs to transfer the licence into someone elses name or does that even happen?

Thanks, (and sorry again)

Depends on your Solicitors fees. The stamp duty is (I believe) around €1200+VAT and then whatever your Solicitor charges.

poneil2001

Bosley wrote: »

NAMA sold off some licences recently as they couldn't find buyers for the pubs. They sold licences (1) for 30k and (1) for 42k. They then sold the premises as de-licenced.

Bosley, your talking absolute rubbish and I know for a fact that NAMA have not sold a licence for 30k or 42k, please do not be putting false and misleading information on these Boards for people who want useful and informative information.

RATM

poneil2001 wrote: »

Bosley, your talking absolute rubbish and I know for a fact that NAMA have not sold a licence for 30k or 42k, please do not be putting false and misleading information on these Boards for people who want useful and informative information.

How do you know that for "a fact"? Please explain, I'd be very interested to hear how you know what NAMA are or are not doing.

Strange that you registered just to make that post. It seems to me like you have a vested interest in publicans licenses not being sold as low as €30k a piece, perhaps you are trying to sell one yourself ?

The Apprentice

ive seen one in the national newspaper for 40k a few months back

washman3

poneil2001 wrote: »

Bosley, your talking absolute rubbish and I know for a fact that NAMA have not sold a licence for 30k or 42k, please do not be putting false and misleading information on these Boards for people who want useful and informative information.

Bolsey is correct, this did happen. have a read through Namawinelake. i'm fairly sure the premises were actually named there. will try to root out the link and post here when i have a little more time.

P.S. i smell a vested interest....:rolleyes:

rainbowdash

RATM wrote: »

How do you know that for "a fact"? Please explain, I'd be very interested to hear how you know what NAMA are or are not doing.

Strange that you registered just to make that post. It seems to me like you have a vested interest in publicans licenses not being sold as low as €30k a piece, perhaps you are trying to sell one yourself ?

I too would like to know how he knows this for "a fact"

50K seems to be about the market rate for these, so 30-40K in a Nama firesale where they want to wrap up a property asap seems about right.

Graham

The capital value of Licences reduced slightly
towards the end of 2012 with licences
transacting in the order of €65,000 at the close
of the year, a long way off the peak prices
achieved in the order of €180,000 as of 2006.

Source: http://www.morrisseys.ie/yearendreviews/2012.pdf
Licenced Hotel & Commercial Property Consultants, Auctioneers, Valuers & Chartered Surveyors

joeguevara

I sold our license in 2005 for €170,000. Doubt you would get €40,000 for it now.

thesteve

Out of interest, I've always wondered about the selling of licenses. Is there a finite amount of them in Ireland that they have to be bought/sold and not just applied for? Anything I could find online just covered transferring of licenses, there's no explanation of the amount of them / how they're awarded / etc.

Any info would be appreciated!

RATM

As far as I know you can't apply for a new license - you need to buy an existing one and the transfer its location from one premises to another.

Not sure how many are in operation right now, a govt department could probably tell you exact numbers if you asked them. During the boom there was somewhere in the region of 12,000 pubs in Ireland so that would be a ball park figure for the amount of licenses in existence. But the trend over the last 10 years has been for supermarkets to buy them to use as off-licenses so while their licenses still exist it is unlikely that they will ever come to market again, unless you see an entiire supermarket chain going out of business.

The same can't be said for pubs though, there is supposed to be a pub closing down every other day in Ireland at the moment if you believe the stats that the VFI and LVA come out with (which I don't - they do tend to exaggerate to further their own agenda for a government bailout). Nonetheless the low prices of €40k discussed here would indicate that the supply of them is currently out stripping demand.

sasta le

Is there an actual government price for these?

Graham

Most licenses are bought/sold on the private market, it's fairly difficult to be granted a new license.

sasta le

So its a black market kinda?

Graham

No, it's private sales. Black-market implies that there is something illegal about the trade.

sasta le

Is it possible to buy a licence from the government or whoever issues them?Like a taxi licence

Pro Hoc Vice

sasta le wrote: »

Is it possible to buy a licence from the government or whoever issues them?Like a taxi licence

Maybe if its for the Dail bar, there is a question is the bar licenced or does it need a licence. I think that the number of licences has stayed static since the late 1800's. the laws around licencing are old and complicated. There are a few good books out there a good one I have heard is http://www.legalbooks.ie/product_info.php?cPath=&products_id=275

The Authors are the main licencing barristers in the country.

Lobby Con Shine

sasta le wrote: »

Is it possible to buy a licence from the government or whoever issues them?Like a taxi licence

No, the Government has nothing to do with granting licences other than passing the legislation which restricts new ones. The restriction on new licences dates back to 1902. Up until then, anyone could open a pub. That law brought in restrictions and they are still in place today.

A licence must be "extinguished" for another to be granted. Let's say a rural pub closes. The licence attaching to that pub is transferable to anywhere in the country. If you want to set up a new pub, you can purchase that licence from the licence holder for the market value which, at the moment, is around €75,000.

sasta le

Crazy system alright

Lobby Con Shine

sasta le wrote: »

Crazy system alright

It is a crazy system. I can understand why, in 1902, when every shebeen was selling intoxicating liquor, there had to be a crackdown.

I would have thought that in today's free market, where one pub is going out of business every day, it would boost job creation to ease up on the restriction, particularly as regards cafe bars where there might be a tap or two for beer along with the coffees and teas etc.

Anyway, that's not the point of your OP!

sasta le

No just doimh some research on it.worked in the trade but never dealt with licences

Pro Hoc Vice

Lobby Con Shine wrote: »

It is a crazy system. I can understand why, in 1902, when every shebeen was selling intoxicating liquor, there had to be a crackdown.

I would have thought that in today's free market, where one pub is going out of business every day, it would boost job creation to ease up on the restriction, particularly as regards cafe bars where there might be a tap or two for beer along with the coffees and teas etc.

Anyway, that's not the point of your OP!

A cafe could get either a restaurant licence or a special restaurant licence I believe neither require the purchase of a publicans licence, only requiring a court application on notice and a revenue fee.

Lobby Con Shine

infosys wrote: »

A cafe could get either a restaurant licence or a special restaurant licence I believe neither require the purchase of a publicans licence, only requiring a court application on notice and a revenue fee.

Not a cafe, a restaurant. And there are restrictions, such as purchasing food and paying at the same time etc. AFAIK, restaurants must sell food with the wine/beer/spirits and cannot serve them on their own. I'm sure there are ways around that but I think that's the official position.

That's why Mickey McDowell's proposals for new "cafe bar" licences was given the heave ho.

washman3

joeguevara wrote: »

I sold our license in 2005 for €170,000. Doubt you would get €40,000 for it now.

Pub with a licence up for sale this week at the Allsop Space Auction at the Shelbourne Hotel. Has living quarters overhead. Called the Triple Crown Bar in Athlunkard street. Its reserve is €80k. Had a reserve of €125k at the last auction and did'nt attract a single bid.
Good move you made in 2005. i think it was obvious to many back then that the a##e was about to fall out of it when LIDL and ALDI were paying €150k and more for a licence.