yet again our justice system fails..

LostBoy101

You don't get justice in court, just words of law.

That sentence is wrong. Just wrong.

IMO what that little thug did was make an attempt on the life of a member of the Gardaí.

That is a disgraceful sentence for the crime committed. He could have seriously injured/crippled/killed her.

Is it just me or is crime getting more severe in this country and the judicial sentencing is not keeping up with it?

loggedoff

TheTorment wrote: »

That sentence is wrong. Just wrong.

IMO what that little thug did was make an attempt on the life of a member of the Gardaí.

That is a disgraceful sentence for the crime committed. He could have seriously injured/crippled/killed her.

Is it just me or is crime getting more severe in this country and the judicial sentencing is not keeping up with it?

Attempted murder, no?

loggedoff

loggedoff wrote: »

Attempted murder, no?

Well when someone comes at you with a 4x4 Suzuki at speed I think you can be assured they are not about to stop and ask you for directions.

hucklebuck

Marsden wrote: »

he was directed to keep the peace

This is another thing that gets my goat, if you are told to keep the peace it means you were previously doing it, these scumbag **** skobie retards wouldnt' know the meaning of it.

vard

The King of Moo wrote: »

What crimes would you like to see the death penalty introduced for? Would you allow the death penalty for adults only in the cases of any of these crimes? Do you entirely preclude the possibility of redemption, and the notion that an individual might improve themselves? Do you have any moral problems with the killing of an individual before they've fully attained adulthood?

It would of course be a drastic measure used only for the most substantial of crimes. Attempted murder would fall into that category. I don't particularly care if a murderer is intent on redemption. In my book, you forfeit your right to life when you take someone else's.

With regard to adulthood, children can not be held fully accountable for their actions. At the age of 16, however, you are no longer a child; I'd like to see offenders of that age face the full severity of the law. Those in charge of enforcing it seem to disagree.

There can often be mitigating circumstances; things would be taken on a case by case basis... but I don't know why I'm talking as if this is an option that would ever be considered. Don't worry, these people will be free to enjoy a long care free redemptive life while their victims are left to suffer.

Nettle

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Came across a near perfect solution in Denmark, years ago.

School was built on an island about 7 miles off the coast in the north sea. Only one bridge to conenct. The took kids aged 14 to 18, with an emphasis on discipline and education (the first two years were more like a military boot camp than a school, the later two much less so). At 18 the kids took state exams.

The point is they had very little freedom when they first got there and theyre literally was no where to run. If one of them went missing, we just put the kettle on drove along the bridge until we found them. They hated it, but they were stuck there.

It worked, too. By the time they got to 18 they were decent students, and usually passed the exams. most of them commented on what **** they were four years earlier.

Would it work here? Well, maybe - if people didnt describe it as a holiday camp or harp on about prefering the death penaly and hard labour, but some people are never satisfied.[/Quote


The success rate of this place is. 98% compared to the Irish detention centre for young offenders being 2%. It's actually cheaper to send the kids over to the island, a good 70 grand cheaper but the government/hse only allow for 3 kids a year to be sent over, not sure why. Some kids are sent to similar places on America which also focuses on wilderness therapy, it will never catch on here, it would cost too much money to research and train in the area! It should be the way forward tho

MaxSteele

A relative of mine used to do social work with adults from the Drumfinn/Cherry Orchard areas of Ballyfermot.

As nice as they were to her, they were of the exact same attitude toward the garda and the "shure der only buzzin bou' on d field havin a few cans and doin yokes derp" attitude.

Plenty of amenities in Ballyfermot and proper services. Just a large minority of utter filth in it too though. Most people wouldn't condone the death penalty, yet most people wouldn't give a rats about this scrotebag, knuckle dragger turning up dead in a ditch either.

Another waste of space going to a holiday camp.

steddyeddy

I hope the woman involved makes a full recovery which is more important. Although I can imagine this type of thing would have a traumatic effect.

MagicSean

It's worth noting that this wasn't a simple matter of a young lad stealing a car and joy riding. This was an organised campaign to attack and kill gardai. The original plan was to lure a Garda car into a cul de sac and then petrol bomb it. When this didn't work they set about ramming gardai with stolen cars which they had stashed.

The sad part is that the Garda in question will probably meet this guy back on the streets in less than six months and have to endure the taunts of him and his friends. He'll do less time in detention than she has spent being treated for her injury.

Death and Taxes

MagicSean wrote: »

It's worth noting that this wasn't a simple matter of a young lad stealing a car and joy riding. This was an organised campaign to attack and kill gardai. The original plan was to lure a Garda car into a cul de sac and then petrol bomb it. When this didn't work they set about ramming gardai with stolen cars which they had stashed.

The sad part is that the Garda in question will probably meet this guy back on the streets in less than six months and have to endure the taunts of him and his friends. He'll do less time in detention than she has spent being treated for her injury.

While that is not mentioned in the report I will accept that you are probably privy to more of the story than the rest of us. If that was the case the little "Junior Terrorist" should have been charged by the DPP with much more serious charges. My view of AGS and the need for reform does not mean that I support people attacking them or abusing them. To my mind this little thug should have been given a much longer term of detention. The really annoying part is that in the short time he will will spend inside there will be no time to really attempt to rehabilitate him, even if the facilities to do so are in place, which ofte they are not, so he will come out even worse than he went in.
Criticising the known and obvious failings of AGS does not equate to supporting criminality in others, particularly when it is aimed at an organ of the state.

demanufactured

Luca Brasi wrote: »

But he came from a deprived background

He should be deprived of his arms and legs.....with an axe.

Frank Black

demanufactured wrote: »

He should be deprived of his arms and legs.....with an axe.

Yes, I think we'd all be happier if we could import more aspects of the Saudi Arabian justice system into Ireland.

Death and Taxes

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Came across a near perfect solution in Denmark, years ago.

School was built on an island about 7 miles off the coast in the north sea. Only one bridge to conenct. The took kids aged 14 to 18, with an emphasis on discipline and education (the first two years were more like a military boot camp than a school, the later two much less so). At 18 the kids took state exams.

The point is they had very little freedom when they first got there and theyre literally was no where to run. If one of them went missing, we just put the kettle on drove along the bridge until we found them. They hated it, but they were stuck there.

It worked, too. By the time they got to 18 they were decent students, and usually passed the exams. most of them commented on what **** they were four years earlier.

Would it work here? Well, maybe - if people didnt describe it as a holiday camp or harp on about prefering the death penaly and hard labour, but some people are never satisfied.

It is actually a very good idea, trouble is they tried something like that on Spike Island some years back and the little fúkers set fire to place!

Show Time

demanufactured wrote: »

He should be deprived of his arms and legs.....with an axe.

Usual sob story from the lawyer that the scumbag came from a broken home, Mammy and Daddy loved the drink more than him, He was a bit slow at school or my own favourite excuse is the he was a great at sports when he was 10 but fell in with a bad crowd.

This piece of human filth will be out on the streets in six months and back before a judge in less than a year and surprise surprise a lawyer will be needed to defend him again.

It's all one big money train for the legal industry.

MagicSean

WileyCoyote wrote: »

While that is not mentioned in the report I will accept that you are probably privy to more of the story than the rest of us. If that was the case the little "Junior Terrorist" should have been charged by the DPP with much more serious charges. My view of AGS and the need for reform does not mean that I support people attacking them or abusing them. To my mind this little thug should have been given a much longer term of detention. The really annoying part is that in the short time he will will spend inside there will be no time to really attempt to rehabilitate him, even if the facilities to do so are in place, which ofte they are not, so he will come out even worse than he went in.
Criticising the known and obvious failings of AGS does not equate to supporting criminality in others, particularly when it is aimed at an organ of the state.

I believe their plan was common knowledge in the area. I presume that's why it didn't work. They even went so far as to smash all the lights in the estate in the lead up to Halloween so the place would be in darkness.

I have no problem with justified criticism of bad Gardaí or of bad policy. I have a problem with criticising the good based on the bad. Most Gardaí do what they can with what they are given for the right reasons.

Leftist

pontia wrote: »

another scumbag who will populate the world with more scum bags.make abortion legal.had good results in usa

Yep, the U.S has a really low crime rate.

classic boards. he has 5 thansk for this.

poverty begets crime.

RATM

Bobby42 wrote: »

To be fair to the lad there probably weren't enough "facilities" for him in his community. There is a well established causal link between the distance "facilities" are from a youth's home and youth crime rates.

:rolleyes:

Do you remember when the council spent €50m building a state of the art swimming pool in Ballymun. The state gave them "facilities" and they didn't use them so it closed down and turned into a white elephant.

Well I saw a programme on RTE a couple of weeks back, think it was Nationwide or similar and it was entirely focused on Ballymun. And guess what ? When the issue of crime came up local after local complained that there was no "facilities in the community".

You couldn't make it up.

Death and Taxes

MagicSean wrote: »

I believe their plan was common knowledge in the area. I presume that's why it didn't work. They even went so far as to smash all the lights in the estate in the lead up to Halloween so the place would be in darkness.

I have no problem with justified criticism of bad Gardaí or of bad policy. I have a problem with criticising the good based on the bad. Most Gardaí do what they can with what they are given for the right reasons.

Fair dues! I wouldn't deny that there are a lot of good Guards out there, my gripe is more with the institution and its framework Sean. That said I, like most others would not want to do that job.

On the subject of this case you know this is a viscious circle with these lads and that until the state comes up with some better way of dealing with them , the Gardai will just continue to catch them young and watch as they get worse and worse and dragged into gangland. For what happened that night in this case the charges preferred were wholley inadequate, as was the sentence.

Death and Taxes

Leftist wrote: »

Yep, the U.S has a really low crime rate.

classic boards. he has 5 thansk for this.

poverty begets crime.

Highest incarceration rate in the western world, also one of the most repressive!
Does it work, hell no.

kincsem

I'm hoping the government will find money in the budget for a nice little prison on an island off the west coast, but will just not have enough in the capital budget for heating or televisions.

whatdoicare

RATM wrote: »

Do you remember when the council spent €50m building a state of the art swimming pool in Ballymun. The state gave them "facilities" and they didn't use them so it closed down and turned into a white elephant.

Well I saw a programme on RTE a couple of weeks back, think it was Nationwide or similar and it was entirely focused on Ballymun. And guess what ? When the issue of crime came up local after local complained that there was no "facilities in the community".

You couldn't make it up.

Agree with you there.

I come from Limerick and grew up on an estate where there was no access to parks, swimming pools, libraries or youth centres! We had a field in the middle of the estate which was muck 360 days of the year. Not one kid on the estate turned to crime, we all have jobs and families.

Where are the facilities in Limerick located you ask? In the areas with the high populations of scumbags! My dad brought us every Saturday into south hill (one of the rough areas) so we could go swimming. Do you think the locals were in the pool with us? They were in their hole and they had free access!
Pool is closed down now, same with roxboro pool.

These people are scum and no amount of facilities or love and hugs is going to change that.

Being charged of anything as a youth should automatically mean you are charged as an adult next time.

Death and Taxes

Deleted User wrote: »

Being charged of anything as a youth should automatically mean you are charged as an adult next time.

Why?

stevedublin

pontia wrote: »

another scumbag who will populate the world with more scum bags.make abortion legal.had good results in usa

Um, no it didnt

kerry4sam

Just posting to Wish a Healthy Recovery Hope you're back in uniform again soon!

thomasm

Nettle wrote: »

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Came across a near perfect solution in Denmark, years ago.

School was built on an island about 7 miles off the coast in the north sea. Only one bridge to conenct. The took kids aged 14 to 18, with an emphasis on discipline and education (the first two years were more like a military boot camp than a school, the later two much less so). At 18 the kids took state exams.

The point is they had very little freedom when they first got there and theyre literally was no where to run. If one of them went missing, we just put the kettle on drove along the bridge until we found them. They hated it, but they were stuck there.

It worked, too. By the time they got to 18 they were decent students, and usually passed the exams. most of them commented on what **** they were four years earlier.

Would it work here? Well, maybe - if people didnt describe it as a holiday camp or harp on about prefering the death penaly and hard labour, but some people are never satisfied.[/Quote


The success rate of this place is. 98% compared to the Irish detention centre for young offenders being 2%. It's actually cheaper to send the kids over to the island, a good 70 grand cheaper but the government/hse only allow for 3 kids a year to be sent over, not sure why. Some kids are sent to similar places on America which also focuses on wilderness therapy, it will never catch on here, it would cost too much money to research and train in the area! It should be the way forward tho

Spike Island is available

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

stevedublin wrote: »

Um, no it didnt

His argument was badly presented, but the argument was made thatall the kids who were aborted as a reuslt of legalised abortion following Roe v Wade caused the drop in crime 20 years later.


http://www.freakonomics.com/books/freakonomics/chapter-excerpts/chapter-4/

The King of Moo

Arguing that either:

Merely providing more recreational facilities will prevent young people from falling into crime or...

Toerags still committing crime despite having a park and a swimming pool nearby proves that they're all irredeemable vermin...

is far too reductive.

You can't undo a deeply-rooted culture of crime and unemployment by throwing a playground at it. You must also do the much harder work of changing that culture into one in which healthier, more useful and less anti-social pursuits become desirable. That's far from easy, and requires working closely with young people, identifying community leaders, and providing education without patronising. It's about changing a mindset of hopelessness and separation from the rest of society. It's also about doing away with the prejudice against the underclass which contributes to that sense of separation.

Still though, it's easier to kill teenagers, isn't it?

Procrastastudy

Ireland - Homicide rate 1.2 per 100,000

US - Homicide rate 4.2 per 100,000

European Average Homicide rate 3.5 per 100,000

(Source UNODC)

Yeah lets follow the US - much better to lock them up for years and years... oh hang on just a tick...

catallus

Leftist wrote: »

Yep, the U.S has a really low crime rate.

classic boards. he has 5 thansk for this.

poverty begets crime.

This has to be the crappiest thing I've read in a long time, slating all those who are poor with being sickening criminals. It really gives an insight into a bad thought process and it is a pathetic outlook. Just wow.:(

MaxSteele

Leftist wrote: »

Yep, the U.S has a really low crime rate.

classic boards. he has 5 thansk for this.

poverty begets crime.

Yeah, living in a council house with full benefits, access to facilities, Youthreach, Fas, education, medical card etc equates to poverty.

Don't make me laugh. The people of Ballyfermot aren't living in poverty. The excuses people will make for scumbags.

Death and Taxes

MaxSteele wrote: »

Yeah, living in a council house with full benefits, access to facilities, Youthreach, Fas, education, medical card etc equates to poverty.

Don't make me laugh. The people of Ballyfermot aren't living in poverty. The excuses people will make for scumbags.

Then can you explain why the majority of those in jail come from what the Government classifies as "Socio-Economic Disadvantaged areas"?
Perhaps you should read Professor Ian O'Donnells (et al) "When Prisoners Go home", it makes very interesting reading.
I don't seek to excuse crime, but I do feel a duty to at least try to rationally explain it.

catallus

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Then can you explain why the majority of those in jail come from what the Government classifies as "Socio-Economic Disadvantaged areas"?
Perhaps you should read Professor Ian O'Donnells (et al) "When Prisoners Go home", it makes very interesting reading.
I don't seek to excuse crime, but I do feel a duty to at least try to rationally explain it.

Maybe the rational explanation is that people who repeatedly and remorselessly break the law, usually by violently exploiting the weaknesses of law-abiding and generally defenceless persons, are scumbags who find that the best answer that society can come up with is to treat them with kid-gloves. A lot of violent criminals observe that they can commit their crimes with a degree of impunity afforded by a perversely weak system of "punishment" which includes being sent to detention institutions as a last resort after a litany of suspended sentences and other sanctions which can only bolster a law-breakers confidence that their behaviour is at some level at least being ignored by the administrators of justice. The victims of crime have no voice what-so-ever.

Procrastastudy

catallus wrote: »

Maybe the rational explanation is that people who repeatedly and remorselessly break the law, usually by violently exploiting the weaknesses of law-abiding and generally defenceless persons, are scumbags who find that the best answer that society can come up with is to treat them with kid-gloves. A lot of violent criminals observe that they can commit their crimes with a degree of impunity afforded by a perversely weak system of "punishment" which includes being sent to detention institutions as a last resort after a litany of suspended sentences and other sanctions which can only bolster a law-breakers confidence that their behaviour is at some level at least being ignored by the administrators of justice. The victims of crime have no voice what-so-ever.

What's your solution? Longer prison sentences have been tried in other jurisdictions and have only made the problem worse.

catallus

Procrastastudy wrote: »

What's your solution? Longer prison sentences have been tried in other jurisdictions and have only made the problem worse.

I suppose the proper implementation of sanctions which permanently segregate the offender from general society would be the proper answer.

Personally I think the technology is ripe for house-arrest type sentences. Let their families put them up while ensuring they can't do any (or at least much) damage down the town.

In my angrier moments I think we should start surgically amputating their arms.:p

But I'm pretty certain all this talk of justice through "re-education" and "rehabilitation" is just too tolerant. It's toleration brought to an imbecilic level.

Procrastastudy

catallus wrote: »

I suppose the proper implementation of sanctions which permanently segregate the offender from general society would be the proper answer.

So while we're on totally disproportionate responses why don't we just kill them?

catallus wrote: »

Personally I think the technology is ripe for house-arrest type sentences. Let their families put them up while ensuring they can't do any (or at least much) damage down the town.

So who pays for someone who is locked up in their house for 300 years for stealing a car? To be fair it would probably be cheaper per year then prison.

catallus wrote: »

But I'm pretty certain all this talk of justice through "re-education" and "rehabilitation" is just too tolerant. It's toleration brought to an imbecilic level.

So in countries that have a good reputation on rehabilitation seem to have shorter sentences, lower recidivism and less crime where as the US and UK have massive issues with prison population and recidivism. I'm struggling to see your logic here. Are you saying high crime is grand so long as we spend billions on locking people up for long periods of time?

Odysseus

MagicSean wrote: »

It's worth noting that this wasn't a simple matter of a young lad stealing a car and joy riding. This was an organised campaign to attack and kill gardai. The original plan was to lure a Garda car into a cul de sac and then petrol bomb it. When this didn't work they set about ramming gardai with stolen cars which they had stashed.

The sad part is that the Garda in question will probably meet this guy back on the streets in less than six months and have to endure the taunts of him and his friends. He'll do less time in detention than she has spent being treated for her injury.

Yeah but he is only a small cog in the whole thing; he wouldn't have taken that car and he certainly wasn't part of the "team" "crew" [whatever you want to call them] that planned that night of madness. It was planned weeks in advance. I even knew to avoid that area that night and I haven't lived in Ballyer for 20 years. Though I was there that night [I always stay in my Mums Halloween]

He was just a fool trying to be a man in others eyes:rolleyes: What we really need is a way of getting the guys that planned and organised that night.

catallus

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Are you saying high crime is grand so long as we spend billions on locking people up for long periods of time?

It's not too complicated. But results don't appear over-night.

One cannot blindly swallow skewed meta-studies of various highly politicised and biased think-tank surveys in relation to criminal behaviour, no matter where the studies come from. It's all bull wrapped in rhetoric.

Come back to basics. What kind of society do you wish to live in? A society which tolerates the repeated criminal behaviour of under-developed nihilists who have no obvious moral compass? Or a society which protects people who just wish to live their lives without being victimised.

We should concentrate more on the point of view of the victims.

Procrastastudy

catallus wrote: »

It's not too complicated. But results don't appear over-night.

One cannot blindly swallow skewed meta-studies of various highly politicised and biased think-tank surveys in relation to criminal behaviour, no matter where the studies come from. It's all bull wrapped in rhetoric.

Hmmm... I think you can be categorised as not actually knowing what you're talking about here. To be fair it is AH and you are entitled to your opinion. I'd suggest looking at the policies of countries with low crime and seeing if they take the views you do.

catallus wrote: »

Come back to basics. What kind of society do you wish to live in? A society which tolerates the repeated criminal behaviour of under-developed nihilists who have no obvious moral compass? Or a society which protects people who just wish to live their lives without being victimised.

We should concentrate more on the point of view of the victims.

I would like to live in a society that reduces crime to the lowest levels while making sure that the costs do not spiral out of control. That's short sentences and focused rehabilitation and education. The point of view of victims are represented at sentencing and by the fact that any as well as rehabilitation prison is a punishment.

catallus

Procrastastudy wrote: »

Hmmm... I think you can be categorised as not actually knowing what you're talking about here. To be fair....

Hmmm...I think you can be categorised as being a little bit too tolerant of evil.:cool:

You're right, it's just my opinion, not looking for an argument with you at all. I'm sure you could walk me through the ins-and-outs of all the studies which show how most criminals turn it around after being treated in a correct manner, but i just think we have to take it with a pinch of salt. (I know for a fact that its all lies written by political cronies)

It's the persistent problem of the seemingly never-ending stream of violent youths I'm thinking of.

"I would like to live in a society that reduces crime to the lowest levels while making sure that the costs do not spiral out of control. That's short sentences and focused rehabilitation and education." It's precisely the opposite to this!!!! That's exactly what makes it so expensive!!!!!

I'm going to leave it at that for the night.

Procrastastudy

catallus wrote: »

Hmmm...I think you can be categorised as being a little bit too tolerant of evil.:cool:

You're right, it's just my opinion, not looking for an argument with you at all. I'm sure you could walk me through the ins-and-outs of all the studies which show how most criminals turn it around after being treated in a correct manner, but i just think we have to take it with a pinch of salt. (I know for a fact that its all lies written by political cronies)

It's the persistent problem of the seemingly never-ending stream of violent youths I'm thinking of.

"I would like to live in a society that reduces crime to the lowest levels while making sure that the costs do not spiral out of control. That's short sentences and focused rehabilitation and education." It's precisely the opposite to this!!!! That's exactly what makes it so expensive!!!!!

I'm going to leave it at that for the night.

I don't understand what you need to read written by cronies - just look at the raw stats of Japan and the Scandinavian Countries vs UK, Ireland and US.

MaxSteele

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Then can you explain why the majority of those in jail come from what the Government classifies as "Socio-Economic Disadvantaged areas"?
Perhaps you should read Professor Ian O'Donnells (et al) "When Prisoners Go home", it makes very interesting reading.
I don't seek to excuse crime, but I do feel a duty to at least try to rationally explain it.

Because these "Socio-Economic Disadvantaged areas" are made up of a lot of social(free) housing. The dregs of society are thrown into working class areas like Ballyfermot and bring the area down in reputation.

"Poverty" is way too exaggerated a word for this situation anyway.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock

catallus wrote: »

Maybe the rational explanation is that people who repeatedly and remorselessly break the law, usually by violently exploiting the weaknesses of law-abiding and generally defenceless persons, are scumbags who find that the best answer that society can come up with is to treat them with kid-gloves. A lot of violent criminals observe that they can commit their crimes with a degree of impunity afforded by a perversely weak system of "punishment" which includes being sent to detention institutions as a last resort after a litany of suspended sentences and other sanctions which can only bolster a law-breakers confidence that their behaviour is at some level at least being ignored by the administrators of justice. The victims of crime have no voice what-so-ever.

In some cases, yes, but not in every one.

catallus wrote: »

I suppose the proper implementation of sanctions which permanently segregate the offender from general society would be the proper answer.

I suggested this earlier. Even put forward a working solution.

Personally I think the technology is ripe for house-arrest type sentences. Let their families put them up while ensuring they can't do any (or at least much) damage down the town.

In my angrier moments I think we should start surgically amputating their arms.:p

But I'm pretty certain all this talk of justice through "re-education" and "rehabilitation" is just too tolerant. It's toleration brought to an imbecilic level.

So you don´t think they should be ecucate or rehabilitation? Or you don`t think it`s possible?