Match Preview & Thread: ENG vs NZ, Twickenham, Sat 1 Dec, 2:30pm

Deano7788

Higher wrote: »

And this is my point. They're clearly fantastically coached and motivated. Not an exceptional team individually but with an excellent coach they look like serious contends for the Grand Slam.

Ireland will be mulled by them in the 6 Nations. I don't even want to think about how Ireland will fare against France. Thank god Wales are so awful this year.

Out of curiosity were you saying the same thing when an understrength Australia beat them 2 weeks ago?

DEFTLEFTHAND

I just hope they don't get carried away with this result, they're a young team who still have a bit to go, but I do think they can turn into a great team in time, I like to see the English do well.

liammur

Tox56 wrote: »

You mean you had them ahead of France before this game?

Yes, I posted that last week on the Munster thread.

Higher

liammur wrote: »

I think 1 huge mistake most here make is thinking just because Munster/Leinster have lorded the H Cup, we should lord the 6N. Englands players have a greater spread of clubs, and this is why I think the H Cup is over rated. International is a step up. England remain my 6N favs.

Some of the HC teams are better than most international teams. Its a joke that Leinster can manage to beat Clermont but Ireland can't beat Wales/England

liammur

Higher wrote: »

Some of the HC teams are better than most international teams. Its a joke that Leinster can manage to beat Clermont but Ireland can't beat Wales/England

Ospreys can also beat Clermont. So too Leicester, Ulster, etc

Higher

Deano7788 wrote: »

Out of curiosity were you saying the same thing when an understrength Australia beat them 2 weeks ago?

Yes.

Higher

liammur wrote: »

Ospreys can also beat Clermont. So too Leicester, Ulster, etc

And Wales manage to beat Ireland and get the semi finals of world cups....

England manage to beat NZ.

Ulster are a part of Ireland in case you forgot so you're pretty much reenforcing my point.

steve9859

It's nonsense to suggest that England have the beating of Ireland after that. The 6N game will likely be difficult to call.

But I do think it is true that England have the belief when playing SH sides that Ireland do not. Even when Ireland were a class above England the same were true. But that is not any coaches fault....and it's nothing that can be dealt with on the training pitch. It is just that England and France have a history in that regard and Ireland do not, and that has a huge psychological impact. And that's why England might win this match when Ireland wouldn't. Nothing to do with whether England would beat Ireland if they played tomorrow



Oh, and just saw the NZ women's Haka.....what a ridiculous sight!!! Like a bit of line dancing!

liammur

Higher wrote: »

And Wales manage to beat Ireland and get the semi finals of world cups....

England manage to beat NZ.

Ulster are a part of Ireland in case you forgot so you're pretty much reenforcing my point.

No, you make out that beating clermont is somehow an incredible task. They have little silverware.....1 French championship, 0 H Cup final appearance, let alone win 1.

So yes Leinster can beat them, as can many other teams. Wales can beat Ireland, Ireland can beat wales. Your point makes no sense.

Higher

liammur wrote: »

No, you make out that beating clermont is somehow an incredible task. They have little silverware.....1 French championship, 0 H Cup final appearance, let alone win 1.

So yes Leinster can beat them, as can many other teams. Wales can beat Ireland, Ireland can beat wales. Your point makes no sense.

My point is that their team is better than most international teams.
Have a look at their starting 15

You can replace Clermont with someone like Toulouse if you want. The point remains that the starting 15s are stronger than international teams who Ireland lose to.

liammur

Higher wrote: »

My point is that their team is better than most international teams.
Have a look at their starting 15

Well then explain to me
A - why they have won SO litte

B - why teams like the Ospreys and Leicester can beat them

CatFromHue

steve9859 wrote: »

Oh, and just saw the NZ women's Haka.....what a ridiculous sight!!! Like a bit of line dancing!

It was my understanding that traditionally the women didn't do the Haka.

I know the womens team have been doing it for a few years now but a Kiwi friend of mine said they shouldn't be.

Duggys Housemate

steve9859 wrote: »

It's nonsense to suggest that England have the beating of Ireland after that. The 6N game will likely be difficult to call.

But I do think it is true that England have the belief when playing SH sides that Ireland do not. Even when Ireland were a class above England the same were true. But that is not any coaches fault....and it's nothing that can be dealt with on the training pitch. It is just that England and France have a history in that regard and Ireland do not, and that has a huge psychological impact. And that's why England might win this match when Ireland wouldn't. Nothing to do with whether England would beat Ireland if they played tomorrow



Oh, and just saw the NZ women's Haka.....what a ridiculous sight!!! Like a bit of line dancing!

Yeah. All these results show is the psychological difference between how Ireland play the sh and England do. We've beaten the French, the French have beaten the ABs ergo we should beat the ABs. We've beaten the English.. t's just we never have beaten the AB. We don't turn up. Roll on next year.

Psychology matters in sport.

Higher

liammur wrote: »

Well then explain to me
A - why they have won SO litte

B - why teams like the Ospreys and Leicester can beat them

O.K replace the example with Toulouse then.

Teams like Ospreys and Leicester beat them because Welsh and English players are good enough to beat them. This is reflected in the international results of Wales and England. But not in the Irish results despite a Leinster team with predominantly Irish players performing exceptionally. Why is that?

liammur

Higher wrote: »

O.K replace the example with Toulouse then.

Teams like Ospreys and Leicester beat them because Welsh and English players are good enough to beat them. This is reflected in the international results of Wales and England. But not in the Irish results despite a Leinster team with predominantly Irish players performing exceptionally. Why is that?

So now we know Clermont are not better than most international teams.

Ireland have won the grand slam in recent years, & a number of triple crowns, but we should be doing better, but we're not good enough to be expecting to be winning the grand slam year in, year out, based on H Cup results.

steve9859

CatFromHue wrote: »

It was my understanding that traditionally the women didn't do the Haka.

I know the womens team have been doing it for a few years now but a Kiwi friend of mine said they shouldn't be.

Having just watched it, I would agree 100% with your Kiwi friend that they shouldn't be doing it. But purely for aesthetic reasons, rather than the cultural ones that your friend is probably referring to!

dtpc191991

Lets face the truth lads. We're coming into another dark period of Irish Rugby. Even if we got the best coach in the world we will be hockeyed by those French and English sides for a few years to come.

Deano7788

I really think too much is being read into this single performance. For the last 2 weeks, England couldn't find the try line to save their lives. They were 1 result away form having this series labelled a disaster. Funnily enough, this sounds familiar. They pull off a big performance against a team that under performed, whether through tiredness, illness or whatever. Again, sounds very familiar. However, if Ireland has thought us anything, these great 1 off performances are virtually useless if they can't be achieved on a consistent basis. I'd hold off on labelling them an amazing team until they repeat this level in the 6 Nations.

Also, while England were good today, I've never seen a NZ side make so many mistakes: handling errors, an interception, suffering clean breaks numerous times, Conrad Smith actually missing a tackle for God's sake. This has to be taken into consideration as well.

Higher

liammur wrote: »

So now we know Clermont are not better than most international teams.

Ireland have won the grand slam in recent years, & a number of triple crowns, but we should be doing better, but we're not good enough to be expecting to be winning the grand slam year in, year out, based on H Cup results.

They are. You're looking at Clermont's results over the years and saying they haven't achieved but I am talking about Clermont in recent years (they won top 14 two years ago by the way). The CURRENT team is better than most international teams in my opinion. Same in regards to Toulouse. If Leinster and Ulster can perform so well against teams like that, is it completely beyond the realms of possibility to expect Ireland not to get embarrassed by the likes of Wales?

.ak

Interesting game. Is it fair to say NZ were more bad than England were good? Some highlights in there for England tho.

Have to say, I begrudgingly enjoyed the England fans singing over the haka. Could you imagine The Fields being sung over the haka like that? It'd be a massive boost for the team going into the opening phases. Say what you like about their fans, atleast they're vocal.


Now to avoid any British rugby media for the next few days.

Deano7788

.ak wrote: »

Interesting game. Is it fair to say NZ were more bad than England were good? Some highlights in there for England tho.

Have to say, I begrudgingly enjoyed the England fans singing over the haka. Could you imagine The Fields being sung over the haka like that? It'd be a massive boost for the team going into the opening phases. Say what you like about their fans, atleast they're vocal.


Now to avoid any British rugby media for the next few days.

Just to let you know, the special report on Sky Sports News tomorrow night is Lancaster discussing the internationals so might want to stay away from that :pac:

steve9859

Deano7788 wrote: »

Just to let you know, the special report on Sky Sports News tomorrow night is Lancaster discussing the internationals so might want to stay away from that :pac:

To be fair, Lancaster is a pretty pragmatic bloke, and not the kind to get carried away. He'll keep everyone's feet firmly on the ground

Duggys Housemate

dtpc191991 wrote: »

Lets face the truth lads. We're coming into another dark period of Irish Rugby. Even if we got the best coach in the world we will be hockeyed by those French and English sides for a few years to come.

Rubbish. We should have beaten SA and we hammered Argentina. France are mercurial. A lot depends on home advantage.

We can beat anybody in the NH- we should be better against the SH.

Deano7788

steve9859 wrote: »

To be fair, Lancaster is a pretty pragmatic bloke, and not the kind to get carried away. He'll keep everyone's feet firmly on the ground

Yeah, it was just a joke. I think he's generally very honest in his assessment.

liammur

Higher wrote: »

They are. You're looking at Clermont's results over the years and saying they haven't achieved but I am talking about Clermont in recent years (they won top 14 two years ago by the way). The CURRENT team is better than most international teams in my opinion. Same in regards to Toulouse. If Leinster and Ulster can perform so well against teams like that, is it completely beyond the realms of possibility to expect Ireland not to get embarrassed by the likes of Wales?

The current clermont team have to win the H Cup before we can even consider them a force, until then, they are false dawn men with potential.
I'm expecting Ireland to beat Wales, but you are not giving the Welsh teams enough credit, for instance the Ospreys can beat clermont and are current league champions, and probably have won it more times than any Irish team.

Judgement Day

At least my eight year old's advice not to bet saved me a packet but it will be a long time before I forget a date which will live in infamy.

danthefan

If, like me, you missed the game there's highlights on at 7pm on BBC3.

bilston

Firstly well done England, they were very good today, their pack was terrific and their centres ran hard and Mike Brown impressed me on the wing. Farrell is like a machine when it comes to kicking.

However it did strike me that in the second half New Zealand were out of puff so for me as Miles Harrison called it Nos 16 and 17 Noro and Virus played their part in the magnitude of the victory if not the result itself.

Still I'm really not wanting to take anything away from England as they were very good. As others have said they have a belief when it comes to NZ that we don't have which is bloody annoying from an Irish point of view...

Anyway well done England, now time to batten down the hatches and avoid the newspapers for a few days...

tbm

Great result for England. When it went to 15-14 I was sure it was only going one way, but fair balls, England were awesome. Don't think NZ were tired, but they did come across as complacent once they had scored, like "here we go lads, we've broken them now!". Thought Clancy had a really good game too. Nobody can have any complaints.

I think both results (Eng and Wal) make things pretty interesting for the 6Ns. Even in the bad years England puled off occasional tonkings of Australia and France, so this result doesn't mean they're world beaters. They could well turn up in Lansdowne over-confidant given what happened last year, even though the dogs in the street knows why we were so soundly beaten.

Wales though, holy crap! Felt bad for them but also quietly pleased, knowing that their spirit may still be shot come February. I'm a fan of Beale's and i was watching it with the Aussie brother in law so I really was hoping for an Aussie win.

Ardillaun

Don't know if the stats bear this out (when has that stopped me before?) but I suspect that good teams with centre pairings featuring at least one very large player have had more success against the ABs or at least have run them closer e.g. Jauzion, Rougerie, Tuilagi.

Tox56

Ardillaun wrote: »

Don't know if the stats bear this out (when has that stopped me before?) but I suspect that good teams with centre pairings featuring at least one very large player have had more success against the ABs or at least have run them closer e.g. Jauzion, Rougerie, Tuilagi.

Two of the teams that have run them close this year are Ireland and Australia. Ireland had D'Arcy and O'Driscoll and Australia had Ben Tapuai and Pat McCabe. None of them giants, and of those 4, McCabe is the only one over 6ft (6ft1).

Conrad Smith just had a poor game, I don't think it mattered what size the opposition centre was.

Ardillaun

Tox56 wrote: »

Two of the teams that have run them close this year are Ireland and Australia. Ireland had D'Arcy and O'Driscoll and Australia had Ben Tapuai and Pat McCabe. None of them giants, and of those 4, McCabe is the only one over 6ft (6ft1).

Conrad Smith just had a poor game, I don't think it mattered what size the opposition centre was.

I'd rather not talk about what we did in New Zealand if that's OK with you.

Smith didn't look too comfortable in the RWC final.

Tuilagi is beginning to fulfill his potential. He's an awfully hard man to stop.

Tox56

Ardillaun wrote: »

I'd rather not talk about what we did in New Zealand if that's OK with you.

Smith didn't look too comfortable in the RWC final.

Tuilagi is beginning to fulfill his potential. He's an awfully hard man to stop.

In terms of a combination D'Arcy and BOD only got to play once, and we lost by 3 points. Maybe big centres do cause them more problems, but you can have two guys 5'10 and still run them close.

.ak

Ardillaun wrote: »

I'd rather not talk about what we did in New Zealand if that's OK with you.

Smith didn't look too comfortable in the RWC final.

Tuilagi is beginning to fulfill his potential. He's an awfully hard man to stop.

I think he's better than most people give him credit for tbh. However, nearly all the breaks he made were from silly tackles. Go for the legs, worry about the offload later.

The_Kew_Tour

Give England credit where credit is due.

If it as Ireland we be making no excuses and loving it.

Ardillaun

Tox56 wrote: »

In terms of a combination D'Arcy and BOD only got to play once, and we lost by 3 points. Maybe big centres do cause them more problems, but you can have two guys 5'10 and still run them close.

Sure. And I recall an excellent BOD tackle on Smith in the build up to one of their tries by Hosea Gear in the 60-0 'highlights' (shudders involuntarily) where McFadden and esp. Earls did not distinguish themselves.

I just feel that, on average, the ABs have so few vulnerabilities - but raw power is one of them against a GOOD team like France or England. My theory falls a bit flat with South Africa.

Teferi

I think it's mad how reactionary people are. Like, I really don't understand it.

You simply cannot call England for the 6N after a single game, just like you couldn't call Ireland after last week.

Show me some consistency before I start making predictions.

Scioch

Teferi wrote: »

I think it's mad how reactionary people are. Like, I really don't understand it.

You simply cannot call England for the 6N after a single game, just like you couldn't call Ireland after last week.

Show me some consistency before I start making predictions.

You cant call it but what England dealt to NZ today was impressive. That wasnt a knackered Argentina. Its not mad to think they will do well on their next outing. Cant be 100% sure of it but its not an exact science.

irishbucsfan

Scioch wrote: »

You cant call it but what England dealt to NZ today was impressive. That wasnt a knackered Argentina. Its not mad to think they will do well on their next outing. Cant be 100% sure of it but its not an exact science.

No, it was a knackered New Zealand who were suffering from food poisoning!

Teferi

Scioch wrote: »

You cant call it but what England dealt to NZ today was impressive. That wasnt a knackered Argentina. Its not mad to think they will do well on their next outing. Cant be 100% sure of it but its not an exact science.

Yeah, it was a knackered New Zealand instead.

Look, between Ireland, England, France and Wales you have a 25% chance of being right if you're betting on the winner of the 6N so someone will call it but I wouldn't be banking on England after that performance, just like I wouldn't be banking on Ireland after last weeks.

Scioch

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No, it was a knackered New Zealand who were suffering from food poisoning!

How were they knackered ? The excuse for the Argies was that they had more games than they were use to because they were in the 4 nations. I'm surprised they could even stand if NZ were knackered after a regular season. So our win still impressive considering the Argies were lucky to be alive, let alone taking to the field ?

And food poisoning a few days ago or not they played well in patches, it took England the bones of an hour to secure the game. They must be some fcukin team if they were poisoned and knackered and still took a top side that length to take em.

I think this is the reason we piss ourselves every time we play them. Unlike other top sides we just cannot accept they are a team that can be beaten by anything else other than luck.

Scioch

Teferi wrote: »

Yeah, it was a knackered New Zealand instead.

Look, between Ireland, England, France and Wales you have a 25% chance of being right if you're betting on the winner of the 6N so someone will call it but I wouldn't be banking on England after that performance, just like I wouldn't be banking on Ireland after last weeks.

If it was a roll of the dice it would be 25% but its not. You have to take recent games into account and if you do then Ireland and Wales are not going to be equal to England or France.

If you were a betting man its 50/50 England and France. I know things might be different come next year but for the moment its not mad to think one of the two current favourites will win.

Elzevir

People get so off their heads in rugby circles..

England DESPERATELY needed to save face, they were due a big performance, and NZ WERE knackered, they all got sick in the week.

BIG DEAL that England thrashed them.. It was impressive, but it should not be forgotten TOO quickly that England have been rubbish all year apart from one good game in SA.. they were diabolical against Australia and spirited (but flat and boring) against SA last week.. The 6N is anyone's (as usual) and Wales will probably win that, again cos they simply have to if they are to get anybody into the Lions team!

I am English but I support Irish Rugby. It breaks my heart that Ireland cannot beat NZ but we get the timing badly wrong (a lot through luck).. If we had been playing NZ today, I think we would have won, but we would not have thrashed them.. Our time will come but we have to start believing in ourselves and stop over respecting them..

Klunk_NZ

Swiwi wrote: »

Engerland:
Prediction: I see the game being close initially, but NZ’s superior fitness, fast-paced game, and greater skillset should see them pull away in the last twenty to register a 10 to 15 point victory. Cheers!

*Wellington, NZ

You just got your team name wrong =P

Deano7788

Why is it when the NH go down there in the summer, at the end of our season, we're knackered and they're fresh but when they play up here, they've been together longer and we're rusty because we haven't played together? No, they coudn't possibly be tired at the end of their season...

bilston

Deano7788 wrote: »

Why is it when the NH go down there in the summer, at the end of our season, we're knackered and they're fresh but when they play up here, they've been together longer and we're rusty because we haven't played together? No, they coudn't possibly be tired at the end of their season...

I've been thinking about this and I wonder if the timings of the November and June tests are easier on the SH sides.

By the time the June tests come about the NH sides haven't played in 3 months so any time spent gelling in the 6Ns will have been lost so that maybe levels the playing field a bit with the SH sides who are rusty at the start of June.

In November the RC has only ended a month earlier and therefore the SH sides are better oiled machines. The NH sides on the other hand haven't played in 6 months. Is it a coincidence that Ireland and England were completely dominant in their final November test? I didn't see much of the Wales game yesterday but it sounded like a decent performance where they should have won as well?

Am I reading too much into it? Put it this way I reckon if Ireland play SA now they'd beat them pretty well.

accidentprone1

Elzevir wrote: »

England DESPERATELY needed to save face, they were due a big performance, and NZ WERE knackered

Pretty much the exact same situation Ireland found theselves in against Argentina. I still wouldn't be surprised if both teams really failed to ignite this six nations.

Deano7788

bilston wrote: »

I've been thinking about this and I wonder if the timings of the November and June tests are easier on the SH sides.

By the time the June tests come about the NH sides haven't played in 3 months so any time spent gelling in the 6Ns will have been lost so that maybe levels the playing field a bit with the SH sides who are rusty at the start of June.

In November the RC has only ended a month earlier and therefore the SH sides are better oiled machines. The NH sides on the other hand haven't played in 6 months. Is it a coincidence that Ireland and England were completely dominant in their final November test? I didn't see much of the Wales game yesterday but it sounded like a decent performance where they should have won as well?

Am I reading too much into it? Put it this way I reckon if Ireland play SA now they'd beat them pretty well.

I'd say that's part of it all right. Their season is much better structured than ours (although to a lesser degree since the Super Rugby expansion). Still, though, to say NZ weren't tired yesterday (especially after virtually everyone of them had a vomiting bug during the week) and Argentina weren't tired last week is crazy.

Elzevir

accidentprone1 wrote: »

Pretty much the exact same situation Ireland found theselves in against Argentina. I still wouldn't be surprised if both teams really failed to ignite this six nations.

Yep I tip Wales again!
Priestland to be test Lion's outhalf, lol..

The thing is Wales sometimes like beating people for fun in the 6N, depending on their mood!!!

They will rise again.. Anyway it will be a fascinating 6N, (apart from the England V Scotland game) ; )

Duggys Housemate

We are playing 3 games at home. Wales in Cardiff could be tough.