Palestine recognised by the UN General Assembly

uch

I'm Happy for Palestinians all over the world, at least they can now go Home

as in, have a home to go to

Rhys Essien

uch wrote: »

I'm Happy for Palestinians all over the world, at least they can now go Home

as in, have a home to go to

The problem is,they cant.Are you aware of all of the Palestinian refugees in Lebanon,Jordan and Syria.Should they want to go to the West Bank or Gaza they would not be left by Israel.

kraggy

Wacker The Attacker wrote: »

This is where it begins to get confusing. How can palestine be an "actual country" when its land was stolen?

Isn't this, at least in part, what the whole conflict is about?

By extension how does U.N recognition begin to rectify this whole situation given that a) several resolutions by the very same organisation have been ignored in the past and b) their "opposition", for want of a better term, are backed by one of the u.n' most powerful members?

It's simple. Give them ownership and full country-status for the territory they occupy right now, and in the near future, give them back the land on which the Israelis built illegal settlements.

Our man in Havana

I think Israel will have the last laugh.

Bobo78

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Could not believe the aggressive response from the US after the vote results.They should be ashamed of themselves and should not be allowed in any future peace talks.

Don't think US is ever in any peace talks just for the peace, they are in more because of the interest that they have than anything else.

Seaneh

seamus wrote: »

Important word there being "nation".

Without recognition as a state, an invasion of Palestine is no more serious than the Irish Army invading Cork.

This.

Israel claim that Palestine isn't a state and that the 1967 boarders aren't boarders but armistice lines, and so there was no actual boarder for them to have to respect.


This vote means that the international community has agreed with Palestine that it is a state and exists along 1967 boarders with East Jerusalem as it's capital.

montreal2011

Nodin wrote: »

...suprised at the Canadians.

An explanation from the Montréal Gazette. It seems that the Canadian government were very strongly opposed to the move.

...
Why has Canada taken this position?

Those who favoured the move hope it creates a more level playing field for the Palestinians and puts more pressure on Israel following decades of unsuccessful peace negotiations to create a Palestinian state.

Palestinians have refused to meet with Israel as long as the Jewish state continues building on land in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, which it captured during the 1967 war and which most of the world considers Palestinian property.

They also hoped supporting the motion would bolster the position of moderate Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas in the face of increased prominence from the more radical Hamas, which is flying high following this month’s conflict with Israel in Gaza.

But the Harper government believes the initiative will do nothing to advance peace talks between Israel and the Palestinian Authority for the creation of a new Palestinian state.

It worries the move unfairly undermines Israel’s negotiating position by pre-supposing — in the Palestinians’ favour — the results of several important aspects of what are supposed to be direct negotiations between the two sides.

Rather than facilitate future negotiations, the Harper government believes the initiative will harden Israeli and Palestinian resolve to keep pushing their respective positions without compromise.

“The path to peace has historically rested in direct negotiations between the two parties to resolve the outstanding issues and it remains the same today,” Baird told UN members before the vote. “Solutions can only come through the two sides working together.”

...

brimal

Nodin wrote: »

...suprised at the Canadians.

Actually Canada has a history of being very pro-Israel, this current government included.

I would have been surprised if they didn't vote against.

mathepac

dsmythy wrote: »

... UK abstained, at least they were planning to anyway.

They could hardly vote and destroy the last vestige of credibility in their foreign policy.

smurgen

Our man in Havana wrote: »

I think Israel will have the last laugh.

I don't this is the start of a very long process and finally the Palestinians are on the right tracks. Abbas has said that he wants to fight the Isreali settlers in a court of law and it's steps like this that will help him. Hopefully Palestinian terrorists will abondon their efforts,show restraint and the Isreali's will then show themselves up as the real bullies they are.

Higher

Canada has the largest jewish population after Israel and America, that's why it voted no.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Only rocket attacks by an official Palestinian military. Rocket attacks from a terrorist organisation not backed by the Palestinian government, could not be considered war.

You do realise that Hamas are in government in Gaza ?

MagicSean

smurgen wrote: »

I don't this is the start of a very long process and finally the Palestinians are on the right tracks. Abbas has said that he wants to fight the Isreali settlers in a court of law and it's steps like this that will help him. Hopefully Palestinian terrorists will abondon their efforts,show restraint and the Isreali's will then show themselves up as the real bullies they are.

Palestinian terrorists? You mean their government and army. With recognition of them being a state they now have to act like one.

brimal

Higher wrote: »

Canada has the largest jewish population after Israel and America, that's why it voted no.

You forgot France. They have a larger Jewish population than Canada.

They voted in favour..

Higher

brimal wrote: »

You forgot France. They have a larger Jewish population than Canada.

They voted in favour..

True although the jewish in France are nowhere near as supportive of Israel as the Jewish in North America.

MagicSean

Higher wrote: »

True although the jewish in France are nowhere near as supportive of Israel as the Jewish in North America.

I find that a bit odd. I would have thought that, following the holocaust, there would be many more people of French descent who had fled to and settled in Israel.

Seaneh

Deleted User wrote: »

You do realise that Hamas are in government in Gaza ?

Most of the rocket attacks from insaide Gaza were from other militant groups, not Hamas, even Israel have admitted that.

The man they blew up on the 11th of November was doing his best to stop those groups from carrying out the attacks, he was known as "Israel's enforcer" in the Gaza Strip.

czx

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Could not believe the aggressive response from the US after the vote results.They should be ashamed of themselves and should not be allowed in any future peace talks.

Should get China or Russia to replace them

Seaneh

czx wrote: »

Should get China or Russia to replace them

Nah, the EU.

czx

Seaneh wrote: »

Nah, the EU.

They both hold spots on the security council, the EU doesn't

Seaneh

czx wrote: »

They both hold spots on the security council, the EU doesn't

A spot on the council isn't need to mediate peace talks.
Hell, have the UK as the leader of the EU Delegation, or France... That's 2 UNSC members right there.

czx

Seaneh wrote: »

A spot on the council isn't need to mediate peace talks.
Hell, have the UK as the leader of the EU Delegation, or France... That's 2 UNSC members right there.

I think they have diverging views on the matter. See vote

Seaneh

czx wrote: »

I think they have diverging views on the matter. See vote

They both have a pretty similar view on it.

The UK were hours away from voting Yes and in general are pretty supportive of the right of Palestine to self determination.

Mr Freeze

Rhys Essien wrote: »

Could not believe the aggressive response from the US after the vote results.They should be ashamed of themselves and should not be allowed in any future peace talks.

That was nasty alright.

Still, Its not surprising that they would come out with a comment like that.

newmug

Mr Freeze wrote: »

That was nasty alright.

Still, Its not surprising that they would come out with a comment like that.

Why, what did they say / do?

RandomName2

seamus wrote: »

Palestine are now free to submit a petition to become a full U.N. member, which would give them voting rights at the UN as well as international recognition as a sovereign and indepedent state.

It doesn't prevent Israel from doing anything, but recognition as a sovereign state is somewhat crucial if you want to ask for assistance from the international community.

I know that a lot of people feel that it is a good thing because they are specifically pro-Palestinian.

I personally think that it is a good thing per se.

seamus

RandomName2 wrote: »

I personally think that it is a good thing per se.

Agreed. It's the first step towards a proper two-state solution on equal terms IMHO.

RandomName2

seamus wrote: »

Agreed. It's the first step towards a proper two-state solution on equal terms IMHO.

Both sides have denied the other's right to exist for too long. At one stage the Palestinians had the upper hand (militarily and politically), and now the Israelis do. Neither extreme is a terribly good thing.

steddyeddy

What did America say/do anybody?

hatrickpatrick

steddyeddy wrote: »

What did America say/do anybody?

Threw a hissy fit, predictably. Always amusing to see people getting frustrated upon meeting the edge of their authority and realizing that not everyone is going to bow to them and lick their arses.

The hypocrisy of American foreign policy never shines quite as brightly as it does where Israel and Palestine are concerned.

OurLadyofKnock

statesaver wrote: »

Kinda shocked that a lot of the central and eastern european countries voted no, Czech Rep, Hungary, Latvia, Lithuania ........

racism is normal there - very backward places.

opinionated3

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

racism is normal there - very backward places.

Why is it racist not to reward the terrorist policies of Hamas in the Gaza Strip?

Chuck Stone

Israel keeps yammering on about sitting down with the Palestinians and sharing the cake (West Bank) while it greedily gobbles it up day by day.

There will be no Palestinian state in my lifetime imo.

pickarooney

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Threw a hissy fit, predictably. Always amusing to see people getting frustrated upon meeting the edge of their authority and realizing that not everyone is going to bow to them and lick their arses.

The hypocrisy of American foreign policy never shines quite as brightly as it does where Israel and Palestine are concerned.

Threw a hissy fit how? Is there an article or a video we can see?

Seaneh

pickarooney wrote: »

Threw a hissy fit how? Is there an article or a video we can see?

They spent the week threatening the Palestinians with sanctions and with holding aide. That is throwing a hissy fit.

jonsnow

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

racism is normal there - very backward places.

Irony Overload

The obama administrations response is deeply shameful.I am sure obama himself and most of his administration hold personally pro-palestinian views at least in relation to Palestinians having some rights and the right to a country. He doesn't need to be reelected and personally loathes netenyahu and his right wing cabinet.Hes shown courage before with medicare - sometimes you just have to do whats right and take the political cost.Obama is not turning out to much of a statesman by doing whatever the Israelis tell him and leaning on everyone else (ineffectually as well) to do what the Israelis demand.

The UK governments position is even worse.The vast vast majority of British people sympathies lie with the Palestinians plight but the UK has become such a US lapdog (even worse than Ireland a much much weaker nation) that their leaders cant even vote the way most UK citizens would wish.

Fair play to Ireland. I thought Gilmore was such a numpty that he might even take a cowardly abstention against overwhelming Irish public opinion and his own principles.We are very vulnerable to US pressure so fair play to the Irish Government so credit where credit is due.Ireland is a true friend to Palestine (and Israel too of course-sometimes you need to tell mates when they are in the wrong)

OurLadyofKnock

jonsnow wrote: »

Irony Overload

The obama administrations response is deeply shameful.I am sure obama himself and most of his administration hold personally pro-palestinian views at least in relation to Palestinians having some rights and the right to a country. He doesn't need to be reelected and personally loathes netenyahu and his right wing cabinet.Hes shown courage before with medicare - sometimes you just have to do whats right and take the political cost.Obama is not turning out to much of a statesman by doing whatever the Israelis tell him and leaning on everyone else (ineffectually as well) to do what the Israelis demand.

The UK governments position is even worse.The vast vast majority of British people sympathies lie with the Palestinians plight but the UK has become such a US lapdog (even worse than Ireland a much much weaker nation) that their leaders cant even vote the way most UK citizens would wish.

Fair play to Ireland. I thought Gilmore was such a numpty that he might even take a cowardly abstention against overwhelming Irish public opinion and his own principles.We are very vulnerable to US pressure so fair play to the Irish Government so credit where credit is due.Ireland is a true friend to Palestine (and Israel too of course-sometimes you need to tell mates when they are in the wrong)

I was talking about Eastern Europe. You often hear monkey chants when teams with black players go there in European matches. Saw it myself when Shels were playing Staeua Bucarest. The entire stadium was doing it.

They would consider moslems racially inferior to Israelis. Thats just how they are there. Not to mention the millions of catholic headbangers in Poland who see Islam as a heretical religion.

It's very backward there. Go there and see for yourself. Skinheads all over these countries.

hatrickpatrick

pickarooney wrote: »

Threw a hissy fit how? Is there an article or a video we can see?

The only full account of it I've seen was from an Israeli newspaper called Haaretz, which unfortunately has recently put its website behind a paywall. Trying to find other sources which sum up America's behavior over the last week, both before and after the vote

czx

Seaneh wrote: »

They spent the week threatening the Palestinians with sanctions and with holding aide. That is throwing a hissy fit.

The US withholding aid to Palestine?

jonsnow

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

I was talking about Eastern Europe. You often hear monkey chants when teams with black players go there in European matches. Saw it myself when Shels were playing Staeua Bucarest. The entire stadium was doing it.

They would consider moslems racially inferior to Israelis. Thats just how they are there. Not to mention the millions of catholic headbangers in Poland who see Islam as a heretical religion.

It's very backward there. Go there and see for yourself. Skinheads all over these countries.

I know what you were talking about and while there are some far right elements in eastern europe you can't just stereotype half a continent and call them backwards. That is playing into stereotypes as well. The main reason that eastern european countries are toing the line is because they are more vunerable to US pressure than established EU countries.

CruelCoin

steddyeddy wrote: »

What did America say/do anybody?

Cut off all US funding of the Unesco program.

As the US is the main financier of the program, this is a big hit for the organisation.

Classic "throwing the toys out of the cot" scenario.

Seaneh

czx wrote: »

The US withholding aid to Palestine?

They give a lot of money to Palestine, yes.

GalwayGuy2

The main reason that eastern european countries are toing the line is because they are more vunerable to US pressure than established EU countries.

Russia has no power in Eastern Europe?

magma69

"The general assembly can resemble the theatre of the absurd, which once a year, automatically approves ludicrous, anti-Israeli resolutions. Sometimes these are supported by Europe, sometimes they are not," he said.

Mark Regev said that. It sums up how out of touch the Israeli administration is.

"If I have to choose between the US, Israel's biggest ally which morally stands above all other nations, and the 138 other countries, I will always choose the United States," said deputy foreign minister, Danny Ayalon.

Morally stands above all other nations? Lol. It's because AIPAC, being the most powerful lobby group in America, tell the U.S government to give endless amounts financial and political support to Israel.

Higher

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

I was talking about Eastern Europe. You often hear monkey chants when teams with black players go there in European matches. Saw it myself when Shels were playing Staeua Bucarest. The entire stadium was doing it.

They would consider moslems racially inferior to Israelis. Thats just how they are there. Not to mention the millions of catholic headbangers in Poland who see Islam as a heretical religion.

It's very backward there. Go there and see for yourself. Skinheads all over these countries.

You can't judge eastern europe on football games.

The far right have specifically targeted football games to recruit hence why you see racism at the football games but its 100% not a fair reflection on the population's stance. It's not unlike what the British nationalists did in football in the 80s and early 90s. Remember Ireland v England in Landsdown Road?

Also skinheads does not equal neo-nazi. Its just a popular style in eastern europe amongst young males.

Some amount of generalizations made on the basis of going to a football game and seeing people with short hair cuts.

Mal-Adjusted

so, was the vote to recognize the borders as they stand at the moment or as they were drawn up when the land was partitioned way-back-when, or some undetermined time in between?
i.e. any of these bad boys. http://shalompaxsalaam.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/israels-expanding-control-over-palestinian-land.jpg

(apologies if the maps are wrong. i googled it and just used the first decent sized one i saw)

jonsnow

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Russia has no power in Eastern Europe?

Yeah russia has power.There are russian speaking minorities,they can cut off the gas pipeline they are a huge neighbor with historic overlordship and massive current influence.In fact one of the main reasons why the US can squeeze the eastern European countries is that they need the US to act as a counterweight to russian bullying.

Yes the Russians voted yes (and its pretty bad when putin is the one making the morally correct choice) but I cant imagine its something the russian govt. really cares too much about. Certainly cant see them twisting arms to get countries to vote for it. They will expend there influence on something they care about.

Rhys Essien

steddyeddy wrote: »

What did America say/do anybody?

Susan Rice (USA) response to the Yes to Palestine vote result.


http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/SusanRi

WoollyRedHat

Following the vote, and following on from Americas Behaviour, Israels behaviour and U.K behaviour, they have all shown themselves to be morally corrupt, if they weren't that a long time ago already.
America displayed a complete lack of disrepect and disreguard for democracy, on which it was founded upon, by threatening Palenstine via fianancial punishements in the days leading up to the vote, to stop them from pressing ahead with it. That is despicable. Israel contiunue to undermine anything which the U.N passes, despite a huge backing, when it comes to Palestine. They should just withrdraw from the U.N already.
This quote, taken from the Guardian, is telling

"The US, Israel and Britain wanted the Palestinians to give explicit pledges they would not seek to join the ICC any time soon "

These, the leaders of the free world, advocaters of democracy and justice, were afraid of Palestine going to the International Criminal Court. They are against Palestine having a fair trial, they are afraid.
It's a sham...

Rhys Essien

Another video here from yesterday.Ron Prosor,Israeli Ambassador to the UN.Just listen to some of the things he comes out with,that Israeli have a 4000 year bond on the land and that according to King David,Jerusalem must be for Jews only.:eek:

Deluded beyond belief.

http://www.c-spanvideo.org/program/301797-102