Its Official, Capcom have gone E-Sports, and now part of IPL

J0hnick

It may not be MLG, but still. I think its a good thing overall though, what about you guys ?.

Doctor DooM

Oh wow! Good thing, I guess. Strange there's no mention of Marvel, and good respect is being shown to Evo.

I just hope it's not too... esports.

Nutrient

J0hnick wrote: »

It may not be MLG, but still. I think its a good thing overall though, what about you guys ?.

It's nice to see

Especially not being affilated with MLG just because I find viewing their content to be a horse**** dismal experience
Nice to see...SFXT?

....What?!

WHEN MARVEL IPL?!

Sabre0001

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Oh wow! Good thing, I guess. Strange there's no mention of Marvel, and good respect is being shown to Evo.

I just hope it's not too... esports.

This cracks me up to be honest. eSports and competitive fighting games are the same - they're both competitive gaming.

The difference is the approach that is taken by each tournament organiser, team, the fans, streaming company, etc. And that isn't dictated by "eSports" or the FGC.

Evo is a completely different beast to the arcade tournaments. Commentators wear shirts and ties (which I find a little odd to be honest - same with MLG's coverage of any game), spectators further away, language more restrained, etc. Does that make it a better or worse tournament than one where Yipes is able to mash together any string of words that come into his head?

At the same time, eSports tournaments are completely different from place to place. Some have gone above and beyond with stream setups and visual displays (which have to be manually done unlike fighting games which clearly show who's ahead). Korea has a huge, passionate audience, while Europeans are more reserved.

Wouldn't follow the "eSports" model in other ways - frequently changes game played, slow (or non-) payout of prizes, etc.

The "eSports" line has been touted out in streams, etc, but I'm curious to see what people actually mean. If it was left up to stream monsters for example, none of their favourite players would make money off their talent (and therefore have less time to explore tech), would play tournaments in the narrowest arcades imaginable, and would maintain the hostile environment which eventually leads to a drop-off in the number of people interested.

K.O.Kiki

Sabre0001 wrote: »

This cracks me up to be honest. eSports and competitive fighting games are the same - they're both competitive gaming.

The difference is the approach that is taken by each tournament organiser, team, the fans, streaming company, etc. And that isn't dictated by "eSports" or the FGC.

Evo is a completely different beast to the arcade tournaments. Commentators wear shirts and ties (which I find a little odd to be honest - same with MLG's coverage of any game), spectators further away, language more restrained, etc. Does that make it a better or worse tournament than one where Yipes is able to mash together any string of words that come into his head?

At the same time, eSports tournaments are completely different from place to place. Some have gone above and beyond with stream setups and visual displays (which have to be manually done unlike fighting games which clearly show who's ahead). Korea has a huge, passionate audience, while Europeans are more reserved.

Wouldn't follow the "eSports" model in other ways - frequently changes game played, slow (or non-) payout of prizes, etc.

The "eSports" line has been touted out in streams, etc, but I'm curious to see what people actually mean. If it was left up to stream monsters for example, none of their favourite players would make money off their talent (and therefore have less time to explore tech), would play tournaments in the narrowest arcades imaginable, and would maintain the hostile environment which eventually leads to a drop-off in the number of people interested.

IMO the main differentiator between "esports" and "FGC" is the lowered (perceived) barrier to entry: FGC events can be entered (and won) by literally anyone, while esports are seen as being for sponsored / "qualified" players only.

Evo is allowed an exception, because the only reason they've stopped day entries is sheer volume of players. However, any player can still register beforehand.

Also, about that drop-off due to "hostile environment": you could hardly call the Irish scene hostile, yet we've seen huge drop-offs since the Vanilla SF4 days. Unless you mean "skill-based hostility", in which case I mildly agree: it's daunting to get up to speed when going against 4yr veterans (still possible though - DBZ rubber-banding in effect IMO).

Doctor DooM

Just as a matter of interest Sabre, have you ever seen the early MLG FG streams?

They were slow to the point of unbearable- some KoF games took upwards of 30 minutes due to ad breaks- the crowds were quiet to the point of soullessness, the "sports desk" type commentary was uninteresting and felt detached, and this is what esports is to most FGC fans. I read about it before I saw a stream, and didn't believe it- but when I did... do not want. FG streams are fun because they're anarchic. I want my crowd to roar, not clap like the Dreamhack finals. Seeing as I read this from an article on SRK, it would seem it's a somewhat regular experience when the communities collide.

The worstpossible thing, I think, is if the velvet curtain, invite only high cost mentality of some leagues infects the FGC. I've met Daigo, Mr KoF, and Deiminion (who actually gave me a nod when I killed an Akuma) and played Mago in a tournament setting. The fact of the matter is right now anyone is likely to get their time fighting whoever they're a fan of sometime if they're even slightly geographically similar and have the urge.

I am well aware, btw, that I am not describing all e-sports events, but the worst aspects of some. You asked what an FGC head means when they say e-sports in a derogatory light I would hope that Capcom getting more involved in tournaments is a good thing, and will lead to more exposure, and hopefully the scene will grow and both sides will learn lessons from the other.

Ramza

More of a reason for Art to throw around the word "eSports" :pac: (and for it to actually mean something now!)

Sabre0001

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

IMO the main differentiator between "esports" and "FGC" is the lowered (perceived) barrier to entry: FGC events can be entered (and won) by literally anyone, while esports are seen as being for sponsored / "qualified" players only.

Evo is allowed an exception, because the only reason they've stopped day entries is sheer volume of players. However, any player can still register beforehand.

Also, about that drop-off due to "hostile environment": you could hardly call the Irish scene hostile, yet we've seen huge drop-offs since the Vanilla SF4 days. Unless you mean "skill-based hostility", in which case I mildly agree: it's daunting to get up to speed when going against 4yr veterans (still possible though - DBZ rubber-banding in effect IMO).

First point is interesting - hadn't thought about that and yes, it would be a shame if a barrier to entry suddenly cropped up. Considering some of the big talking points within the FGC are usually lesser known players (internationally) posing problems for a top class player. Shocks are less likely in other genres or games like Quake and Counter-Strike.

Hostility is in no way linked to Irish scene - all a friendly bunch even to players like myself But you see archived footage from America (or the infamous FChamp giving the finger to the fella standing behind him taunting with slurs) and that would cause issues. Especially now when everyone and everything is so connected thanks to social media and YouTube.

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest Sabre, have you ever seen the early MLG FG streams?

They were slow to the point of unbearable- some KoF games took upwards of 30 minutes due to ad breaks- the crowds were quiet to the point of soullessness, the "sports desk" type commentary was uninteresting and felt detached, and this is what esports is to most FGC fans. I read about it before I saw a stream, and didn't believe it- but when I did... do not want. FG streams are fun because they're anarchic. I want my crowd to roar, not clap like the Dreamhack finals. Seeing as I read this from an article on SRK, it would seem it's a somewhat regular experience when the communities collide.

The worstpossible thing, I think, is if the velvet curtain, invite only high cost mentality of some leagues infects the FGC. I've met Daigo, Mr KoF, and Deiminion (who actually gave me a nod when I killed an Akuma) and played Mago in a tournament setting. The fact of the matter is right now anyone is likely to get their time fighting whoever they're a fan of sometime if they're even slightly geographically similar and have the urge.

I am well aware, btw, that I am not describing all e-sports events, but the worst aspects of some. You asked what an FGC head means when they say e-sports in a derogatory light I would hope that Capcom getting more involved in tournaments is a good thing, and will lead to more exposure, and hopefully the scene will grow and both sides will learn lessons from the other.

I've seen a little of it (and it kinda bored me ). MLG hasn't quite learned what to do in terms of commentary and where the line is so it didn't come across well. Also don't remember who the commentators were, but it didn't really work. Onthe other hand, Starcraft has at least 3 or 4 top class commentators who blend passion with knowledge, so maybe it's about finding casting people who work well together and for extended periods of time.

Ad breaks are always going to be a sticky subject. Most games, it's find to take one after each match / set. Not so with Fighting Games because they're so quick. A learning process...I hope. But then again, Canada Cup had its own mistakes with it's $8.95 stream and relentless ads, so keep the fingers crossed.

On the crowd front, there isn't much that anyone can do about that. Scandanavians are more reserved - not sure they even get that excited for the first person shooter stuff But DH stream was overwhelmed with demand for other games. That's an issue elsewhere too - you see it when MK is on stream (for example) and people want Marvel or vice versa. At least they're both fighting games though, so spectators can semi-relate. Whole different kettle of fish when different genres and that's a problem for multi-gamed events.

Believe me - the last thing I want is a soulless experience. I like seeing the personality stuff like CEO's naff wrestling ring intros, Poongko's removal of keys, wallet, belt, etc., Mike Ross running into crowd and getting floored by Gootecks during EVO, and so on.

K.O.Kiki

Sabre0001 wrote: »

[...]

Hostility is in no way linked to Irish scene - all a friendly bunch even to players like myself But you see archived footage from America (or the infamous FChamp giving the finger to the fella standing behind him taunting with slurs) and that would cause issues. Especially now when everyone and everything is so connected thanks to social media and YouTube.

Pop-off/trash-talking of that nature is more of an American thing in general -- watch an NBA game to hear what I mean :rolleyes:

I've seen a little of it (and it kinda bored me ). MLG hasn't quite learned what to do in terms of commentary and where the line is so it didn't come across well. Also don't remember who the commentators were, but it didn't really work. Onthe other hand, Starcraft has at least 3 or 4 top class commentators who blend passion with knowledge, so maybe it's about finding casting people who work well together and for extended periods of time.

FGC commentary is a lot harder too, since it's so fast-paced - again, closest sport I can think of that has the same level of pace is basketball.

Ad breaks are always going to be a sticky subject. Most games, it's find to take one after each match / set. Not so with Fighting Games because they're so quick. A learning process...I hope. But then again, Canada Cup had its own mistakes with it's $8.95 stream and relentless ads, so keep the fingers crossed.

The MLG ad-break problem wasn't that they were there - it was that they were SO LONG! (15-30 mins IIRC)
That $8.95 stream wasn't a problem this year -- unless you're a "stream monster", in which case your opinion means less than shít

On the crowd front, there isn't much that anyone can do about that. Scandanavians are more reserved - not sure they even get that excited for the first person shooter stuff But DH stream was overwhelmed with demand for other games. That's an issue elsewhere too - you see it when MK is on stream (for example) and people want Marvel or vice versa. At least they're both fighting games though, so spectators can semi-relate. Whole different kettle of fish when different genres and that's a problem for multi-gamed events.

I dunno, they seemed pretty lively during Ryan Hart vs Infiltration:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OsMByYauGM

Again, stream monsters just talk shít; "when's Marvel on?" is just a crap meme of theirs.

Believe me - the last thing I want is a soulless experience. I like seeing the personality stuff like CEO's naff wrestling ring intros, Poongko's removal of keys, wallet, belt, etc., Mike Ross running into crowd and getting floored by Gootecks during EVO, and so on.

We are FGC.
We are HYPE.

Doctor DooM

Sabre0001 wrote: »

On the crowd front, there isn't much that anyone can do about that. Scandanavians are more reserved - not sure they even get that excited for the first person shooter stuff But DH stream was overwhelmed with demand for other games. That's an issue elsewhere too - you see it when MK is on stream (for example) and people want Marvel or vice versa. At least they're both fighting games though, so spectators can semi-relate. Whole different kettle of fish when different genres and that's a problem for multi-gamed events.

On this note, apparently it's an ongoing issue that the "pop off" behaviour of FG fans is at odds with the majority of other gaming events. According to ultradavid anyway, I haven't been to any other events (except lanparty, where we definitely were at odds to the other people there, but in a good way- some halo kid screamed an obscenity across the room at another and the entire SF crowd went eEEeeeEEwwwWWwwwWwwWw). To this day I remember it as one of the funniest shared moments of the FGC (also the event which inspired me to pick up the doomcam, and Cobelcog's first tournament).

deathrider

The thing that bugs me (and I know this is trivial as all hell) is the name "E-Sports". Seriously, I know you're got to be an amazing player and be willing to dedicate a lot of time, money, and energy into these things if you want to play at a real high level. I respect that, however that doesn't make it a sport. It's a conpetitive contest to be sure, but the word "sport" doesn't belong anywhere near it, as gamers spend these events sitting on their asses!

There, I feel better now.

UberPrinny_Baal

deathrider wrote: »

It's a conpetitive contest to be sure, but the word "sport" doesn't belong anywhere near it, as gamers spend these events sitting on their asses!

I think that depends purely on your personal level of pedantry and specifically which governing bodies you recognise.

Wikipedia wrote:

Sport is generally recognised as activities which are based in physical athleticism or physical dexterity, with the largest major competitions such as the Olympic Games admitting only sports meeting this definition, and other organisations such as the Council of Europe using definitions precluding activities without a physical element from classification as sports. However, a number of competitive, but non-physical, activities claim recognition as mind sports. The International Olympic Committee (through ARISF) recognises both chess and bridge as bona fide sports, and SportAccord, the international sports federation association, recognises five non-physical sports, although limits the amount of mind games which can be admitted as sports.

FGs definitely do require physical dexterity, so going purely by this I would say they are "more sports" than chess or bridge. They would qualify for definite as sports under European Governing bodies, but probably not under American Governing bodies.

Using your own "ass on chair= not a Sport" criteria test, console fighting games, chess and bridge are all NOT sport, but standing arcades fighting games and traditional rock paper scissors ARE sports.

Also therefore, taken to its logical extreme: nobody in a wheelchair can ever be an athlete.

Words and definitions are a nebulous things....

deathrider

UberPrinny_Baal wrote: »

I think that depends purely on your personal level of pedantry and specifically which governing bodies you recognise.



FGs definitely do require physical dexterity, so going purely by this I would say they are "more sports" than chess or bridge. They would qualify for definite as sports under European Governing bodies, but probably not under American Governing bodies.

Using your own "ass on chair= not a Sport" criteria test, console fighting games, chess and bridge are all NOT sport, but standing arcades fighting games and traditional rock paper scissors ARE sports.

Also therefore, taken to its logical extreme: nobody in a wheelchair can ever be an athlete.

Words and definitions are a nebulous things....

I respectfully disagree. I wouldn't put Chess down as a sport either for exactly the same reason as gaming. Again, they'd be competitive, yes, but I don't think sport is the correct word for them. However, that is just my opinion. I think sports are played by atletes as opposed to the "sitting down" part that I mentioned, and I wouldn't consider most gamers to be atletes. In my opinion, this spills over in Chess, F1 racing, and indeed darts. People in wheelchairs playing basketball or whatever the case may be would be atletes in my eyes.

I'm not basing this on any kind of fact, I personally just don't see gaming as sports. Never did, and probably never will.

Sabre0001

Well I dragged this completely off topic. Sorry about that!

Good to see fighting games getting supported, though I would have preferred to watch Marvel over SFxT. Interesting to see that they explicitly mention EVO - at least they know that much about target market. While they won't clash with main event, it will be interesting to see how IPL and Road to EVO stops are scheduled and what happens if there's a clash in terms of who goes to what / anyone changes date.

Doctor DooM

Off the (terrible, extremely...well, e-sports) stream earlier:


Iplfighters: We did not choose SFxT over Marvel. SFxT, AE and DOA are our first fighting game announcements. We never said we're done announcing things

Nutrient

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Off the (terrible, extremely...well, e-sports) stream earlier:


Iplfighters: We did not choose SFxT over Marvel. SFxT, AE and DOA are our first fighting game announcements. We never said we're done announcing things

Sending the death treats already

WHEN MARVEL IPL?

Their going be very PjSalt if they don't add Mahvel :mad:

C0unter

Might have something to do with Marvel licensing.

deathrider

EDIT: Wrong thread...

Doctor DooM

Here's some footage from the first event:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vGdiEpAKExQ

Unfortunately Justin is not a good advocate for SFxT

This is unfortunately very representative of how the event went though: Sound was desynced for the whole event, the stream must have gone down 15 times during it, ads were far too plentiful to hold my interest at all. This amazes me as I assumed the technical side would be where "e-sports" would easily trump the indie (Do we have to call them that now?) events.

On the upside 2013 does appear to be much more watchable than vanilla SFxT to be fair, and people now look like a boss when they confirm in to chains. The commentary was about 7,000 times better than MLG's efforts

Sairus

I always feel FG matches feel a little dead when you can't hear the crowd roaring in the background. Even if it's a small crowd you generally get the general mumble of people watching the game. Maybe it's just from being so used to that style of recording, but the recording here where they're clearly in a booth away from the players takes something away.

And yeah, Justin's style here really wasn't a good ad for the game.

Doctor DooM

Sairus wrote: »

I always feel FG matches feel a little dead when you can't hear the crowd roaring in the background. Even if it's a small crowd you generally get the general mumble of people watching the game. Maybe it's just from being so used to that style of recording, but the recording here where they're clearly in a booth away from the players takes something away.

That's been the downfall of every non FGC run event I've seen so far. The Dreamhack final, MLG, this event, and all the others have had this same lack of hype.

People were even conplaining on my videos when I was transitioning between the doom cam and the current system and I had no mikes to pick up ambient noise.

Owwmykneecap

DAVID TING OF IPL wrote:

It will bring in a lot of mainstream audiences. We’re producing it like a boxing event. We want to bring in the MMA world with this digital fighting tournament.

In the near future maybe we’ll do these matches in a boxing ring in a stadium on a big screen,. We’ll have entrances with guys going in with controllers in their hands and have ring girls between matches.

Gee-sports.