Rented house and poor BER

Hailhail1967

Long story short, I moved into a rented house a couple of moths ago (fixed term of 12 months lease). I was foolish and never looked into energy rating etc.

I now can hardly keep warm in the house and afraid I will actually end up ill or in serious debt. I have since found out the energy rating of the house is E1, which is shocking. All the recommendations listed for the house have never been carried out but I know they are only recommendations.

Is this my tough luck? Or would I have any way of getting out of lease?

D3PO

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

Is this my tough luck? Or would I have any way of getting out of lease?

its your tough luck. you should have checked before you signed the lease there is a legal obligation to provide a BER but not to provide a hosue at a certain BER level unfortunatly

cmssjone

We had exactly the same problem. We also had other issues with our LL as well. We were told that if the BER is not produced upon the signing of the contracts then the contract is null and void. When we mentioned this to our LL, he got pretty angry and asked us to leave by the end of the week. We found a new place and received our deposit back in full. Give threshold.ie a ring and constantly hassle the LL. Keep telling him you are too cold. Good luck!

Rasmus

This is true - if there is no BER, technically your lease isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Getting the LL to see it this way may be another story though.
How did you find out it was E1?

D3PO

cmssjone wrote: »

. We were told that if the BER is not produced upon the signing of the contracts then the contract is null and void. !

thats incorrect. legally they must provide a BER but they do not have ro produce it when the contracts ar ebeing signed. You are entitled to ask for it. the op has seen the BER so they have one.

they are therefore stuck as there is no min BER rating that must be provided

D3PO

Rasmus wrote: »

This is true - if there is no BER, technically your lease isn't worth the paper it's printed on. Getting the LL to see it this way may be another story though.
How did you find out it was E1?

bit lof logic here Rasmus, The OP knows the BER rating therfore a BER exists,

Ted_YNWA

Similar issue here, BER need to be provided for properties rented after 1/1/09. I am renting since 2005 in same property, presume I just need to ask LL. Is he obliged to get one, as technically house is classsed as being rented before this date

StillWaters

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Similar issue here, BER need to be provided for properties rented after 1/1/09. I am renting since 2005 in same property, presume I just need to ask LL. Is he obliged to get one, as technically house is classsed as being rented before this date

I'm not sure of the legalities of this, but if you are living in a house 7 years, a BER probably won't tell you anything you don't know. You would be better off negotiating for items you know will make a difference rather than agitating for a BER which as stated, the LL does not have to act on anyway.
You could get windows sealed or an extra layer of insulation in the attic for example for the price of a BER cert.

cmssjone

D3PO wrote: »

thats incorrect. legally they must provide a BER but they do not have ro produce it when the contracts ar ebeing signed. You are entitled to ask for it. the op has seen the BER so they have one.

they are therefore stuck as there is no min BER rating that must be provided

Sorry, you are correct. I have a feeling that the reason our LL got so p1ssy was that he hadn't a BER cert and this would have invalidated the contract.

D3PO

cmssjone wrote: »

Sorry, you are correct. I have a feeling that the reason our LL got so p1ssy was that he hadn't a BER cert and this would have invalidated the contract.

your probably right

Hailhail1967

Ya I was researching it online and managed to cop you could get the BER cert online. I was obviously very foolish when renting.

I rent through an agency so I am hoping that possibly they may convince the landlord to let me out of the contract so I can move to anoter house with them. The landlord does have a few other houses to. The house has gotten so bad I will probably have to cut my losses and loose my deposit anyway, just going to end up sick i the house. That or completely broke.

sydthebeat

Ted_YNWA wrote: »

Similar issue here, BER need to be provided for properties rented after 1/1/09. I am renting since 2005 in same property, presume I just need to ask LL. Is he obliged to get one, as technically house is classsed as being rented before this date

You are entitled to request to see the BER when ever your current lease runs out and you are due to sign a new one.

Hailhail1967

Go onto the seai website and you can check if your property has one All you need is your mprn number from your esb meter.

BostonB

Rasmus wrote: »

This is true - if there is no BER, technically your lease isn't worth the paper it's printed on. ...

Where are you getting that from, that you can state it as fact?

Do you know has it ever been challenged legally and the tenant has won, and not had to pay the rent on the remainder of their lease/contract?

AK333

Just an aside, not sure if its helpful, but all landlords now have to register residential tenancies in the PRTB - ask your landlord if he has? Maybe you can assert pressure for him to cancel your lease and return your deposit. Good luck

Rasmus

BostonB wrote: »

Where are you getting that from, that you can state it as fact?

Do you know has it ever been challenged legally and the tenant has won, and not had to pay the rent on the remainder of their lease/contract?

http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1593

BostonB

Thats a no then.

http://www.daft.ie/discussions.daft?dcn[discussion_id]=140633&dcn[forum_id]=2

Hailhail1967

If for example your tenancy was never registered, would this give you any chance of getting out of a lease? Or is that clutching at straws. I was never informed my tenancy was registered, should/ would I have been notified if I was registered?

Also I would like to state I am not trying to get out of my lease for any under hand reason I would be happy to move to a different house owned by my landlord or agency if that was possible, I am genuinely worried about my health here.

sydthebeat

Rasmus wrote: »

http://www.irishlandlord.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1593

Without bringing things off topic, but bloody hell that thread reflects disgracefully on those posters.

BostonB

Also slightly off topic the Ber system is kinda flawed as its a guesstimate of how well a building will do, and as a result older buildings will never do well on it. Also even if a building has a good Ber, is there's any way of knowing if that actually being achieved by the building? For example if something is built badly it could be highly compromised with regard insulation and heating.

BostonB

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

If for example your tenancy was never registered, would this give you any chance of getting out of a lease? Or is that clutching at straws. I was never informed my tenancy was registered, should/ would I have been notified if I was registered?

Also I would like to state I am not trying to get out of my lease for any under hand reason I would be happy to move to a different house owned by my landlord or agency if that was possible, I am genuinely worried about my health here.

Not being registered isn't a valid reason for breaking the lease.

Have you asked the LL about it, that the building seems impossible to heat. Perhaps theres a problem with it. If the LL does nothing about it, you could break your contract then?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html

Hailhail1967

BostonB wrote: »

Not being registered isn't a valid reason for breaking the lease.

Have you asked the LL about it, that the building seems impossible to heat. Perhaps theres a problem with it. If the LL does nothing about it, you could break your contract then?

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/repairs_maintenance_and_minimum_physical_standards.html

I had assumed our boiler was faulty (which it was) landlord was very understanding and replaced the boiler with the same model one.

So I gave it a couple of weeks but its getting far worse now with it getting colder outside. So I put it all in an email the weekend to my agency and I am giving them until today to reply before I call in to them in the morning to discuss it. I do not want to shaft my LL but i have to put myself first at the same time.

The BER statement was very damning to the property. Typical built 90's house put up cheaply and in a hurry. Looks lovely from the outside but has windows made of paper and my pants have more insulation. I am very foolish for not looking into all this firstly.

BostonB

Its not just the 90's because of dire enforcement, the building sector has never had building standards adequately enforced. Even new buildings may be poorly constructed and energy inefficient.

Perhaps if the LL is understanding he might be open to discussion on this. If you approach them in a rational and calm way. Saying its simply too cold. Improving insulation and perhaps even new windows might be on the LL plans for the buildings, and can be done quite quickly. What are the heating bills?

Spindle

There is some ambiguity in relation for the need to have BER provided by the vendor/landlord when signing a contract for rental or purchase of a house. It is required in the contract, and when not provided by the vendor/landlord in the contract it could void the contract.

This however has never been tested in a court and you would need to go to court to prove you had a case to cancel the contract. Obviously with a rental contract this is never going to be worth it.

The best approach is always going to the letting agent/landlord in a friendly manner, explain the situation and see what they can do for you. It is always better than charging in head first with half-baked legal arguments to try and break a lease.

Going OT:

There really needs to be a compulsory course given in college/secondary school to educate people on issues like contract law, what their rights in rentals are, how to pick a suitable house to live in, budgeting etc etc.

The amount of people accepting poor standard of rentals without conducting any research to see if a rental suits their needs, not knowing their rights etc, and allowing dodgy landlords is shocking. Like wise the number of people who rent and expect they can break contracts without any ramifications, and have no obligations as renters is also equally high.

BostonB

A LL might take the hit on doing up the property if there's a good tenant there. Its better to have a property occupied especially during winter than an empty one, even if the costs of repair, enhancement means there no income from the property for a month or two. The LL might have been putting it off till now. But at some point all building need to refurbished. With respect to windows, insulation etc.

You could suggest all this to the LL in a non confrontational manner, they may agree with you. But if they do agree, make sure they agree to a rapid timescale for doing it. If all the problems are fixed then your reason for choosing that property to rent are still valid.

BostonB

Spindle wrote: »

....Going OT:

There really needs to be a compulsory course given in college/secondary school to educate people on issues like contract law, what their rights in rentals are, how to pick a suitable house to live in, budgeting etc etc.

The amount of people accepting poor standard of rentals without conducting any research to see if a rental suits their needs, not knowing their rights etc, and allowing dodgy landlords is shocking. Like wise the number of people who rent and expect they can break contracts without any ramifications, and have no obligations as renters is also equally high.

Couldn't agree more.

Hailhail1967

BostonB wrote: »

A LL might take the hit on doing up the property if there's a good tenant there. Its better to have a property occupied especially during winter than an empty one, even if the costs of repair, enhancement means there no income from the property for a month or two. The LL might have been putting it off till now. But at some point all building need to refurbished. With respect to windows, insulation etc.

You could suggest all this to the LL in a non confrontational manner, they may agree with you. But if they do agree, make sure they agree to a rapid timescale for doing it. If all the problems are fixed then your reason for choosing that property to rent are still valid.

Ya I understand this is essentially my own problem, i'm not blaming the landlord in any way, it was my own foolishness. In the rush to get a new home I fell in love with this one as it was exactly what I wanted. I have stated my points to this end to my letting agent. I will just have to wait and see what reply I get.

Spindle wrote: »

Going OT:

There really needs to be a compulsory course given in college/secondary school to educate people on issues like contract law, what their rights in rentals are, how to pick a suitable house to live in, budgeting etc etc.

The amount of people accepting poor standard of rentals without conducting any research to see if a rental suits their needs, not knowing their rights etc, and allowing dodgy landlords is shocking. Like wise the number of people who rent and expect they can break contracts without any ramifications, and have no obligations as renters is also equally high.

I am over 10 years renting privately in 3 different countries and have never had a problem before, I have never had 1 cent of a deposit held on me, in fact most landlords try to get me to stay on when I finally leave. I suppose my luck in choosing places in the past was the problem here, I overlooked the energy rating of the house. Anyway a BER does exist and I have no intention of going to court or anything like it. If the landlord digs his feet in, I will either have to suffer it out or else I will have to leave the premises and fork out for whatever I will owe while the property lies empty, which I'm assuming will be a long time as with the rating of the house no one would want to live in it.

The gas bill was €340, esb was €146. No spare rooms in house heated or lights etc on. Bare in mind the house is freezing. I sleep in a hoody in bed. I wear a hat around all day when i'm in the house. Having the heating on for 3 or 4 hours makes no difference to the feeling of warmth in the house.

BostonB

Where is the heat going? Is their insulation in the roof, double glazing, draughts? Where? Is it stone walls or something?

Hailhail1967

There is an attached garage which is obviously a huge problem. I knew this moving in, but it was something I needed and my previous two houses had a similar garage attached. The windows feel like there is nothing there at all. Standing within 3 feet of them feels like standing beside the freezer with the door open. Although not an actual draft. The BER made reference to the windows and how they were a huge problem. That same feeling of cold around the windows is the same around the front and rear doors, this is also reffered to in the BER cert.


The heat from the open gas fire does not heat the room at all, it seems to go straight up the chimney.

With the heating on for say 3 hours we would only have luke warm water from thw tap, although I must stress the rads feel hot.

BostonB

I don't get the impression your going to fix most of that with out spending thousands . I think you need to have a chat with the LL. To ask them can they refurb that propery. If they are are unable or unwilling to fix it, then I think you have to look at your options.

In my opinion, You'd be taking a 50:50 gamble to break the contract and hope the LL doesn't insist on the rent for the period of the lease, or if it goes to dispute with the PRTB that they'd find in your favour. Maybe the LL is a decent sort and will let you go, or will do the work.

Spindle

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

Ya I understand this is essentially my own problem, i'm not blaming the landlord in any way, it was my own foolishness. In the rush to get a new home I fell in love with this one as it was exactly what I wanted. I have stated my points to this end to my letting agent. I will just have to wait and see what reply I get.



I am over 10 years renting privately in 3 different countries and have never had a problem before, I have never had 1 cent of a deposit held on me, in fact most landlords try to get me to stay on when I finally leave. I suppose my luck in choosing places in the past was the problem here, I overlooked the energy rating of the house. Anyway a BER does exist and I have no intention of going to court or anything like it. If the landlord digs his feet in, I will either have to suffer it out or else I will have to leave the premises and fork out for whatever I will owe while the property lies empty, which I'm assuming will be a long time as with the rating of the house no one would want to live in it.

The gas bill was €340, esb was €146. No spare rooms in house heated or lights etc on. Bare in mind the house is freezing. I sleep in a hoody in bed. I wear a hat around all day when i'm in the house. Having the heating on for 3 or 4 hours makes no difference to the feeling of warmth in the house.

I sympathise with you, rentals in Europe are of a much higher standard in general than here.

In Ireland, we have a fairly rubbish housing stock, that can look nice on the outside. Nobody invested in them in the "good times" instead they built even worse rubbish. I have seen plenty of houses with ratings of F!! You wouldn't even need a fridge in them.

I would typically be paying 340 - 420 on ESB as I have all electric heating, (storage heaters are rubbish, convection heaters even worse),

Just out of matter of interest do you have a thermometer to find out that the temp in the house is?

And if your looking for a new place, look for upstairs apartments, generally warmer as your stealing the heat from downstairs