Rented house and poor BER

Hailhail1967

He is involved in the building trade so its possible that he may try to remedy the problems. To be honest I'm surprised he hadn't made efforts to have work done before renting. He lived in this house himself and he had the BER done in July of this year.

I sit here now with my girlfriend, heating on for an hour so far. I have a woolly hat on and we both have blankets over us. She has a hot water bottle. It is 100% warmer outside.

Its making me laugh writing this but its certainly not funny. I will speak to the LL and Agent tomorrow, they seem very decent and good people so I may be worrying about nothing they may be very accommodating. I just chose to email all my problems to them, so as when I meet them I do not forget half the stuff and end up leaving unsatisfied.

Hailhail1967

Spindle wrote: »

Just out of matter of interest do you have a thermometer to find out that the temp in the house is?

And if your looking for a new place, look for upstairs apartments, generally warmer as your stealing the heat from downstairs

I don't have one but i'm going to get hold of one, never even thought of it to be honest.

I wanted/needed a garage, but between heating costs (and no heat) and the price of the house anyway, I could have a nice snug apartment and still rent a bloogy garage or unit and be no worse off money wise.

Spindle

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

I don't have one but i'm going to get hold of one, never even thought of it to be honest.

I wanted/needed a garage, but between heating costs (and no heat) and the price of the house anyway, I could have a nice snug apartment and still rent a bloogy garage or unit and be no worse off money wise.

The temp of a living room/kitchen should be above 16c ideally around 18-21c. Other areas such as halls don't need to be as warm, you actually will sleep better in a bedroom around 16c under a warm duvet.

Of course this is not a legal requirement anywhere.

Hailhail1967

^^^ Ya I must try get hold of one tomorrow just out of curiosity for myself.

Thanks everyone for the replies also.

Ray Palmer

Be realistic. Not many can afford to upgrade rental property. You are talking at least a couple of month rental income for the tenants comfort.
The BER is very faulty system and doesn't tell you much. I certainly can't imagine the report saying anything bad. It is meant to just state condition and recommendations.

Hailhail1967

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Be realistic. Not many can afford to upgrade rental property. You are talking at least a couple of month rental income for the tenants comfort.
The BER is very faulty system and doesn't tell you much. I certainly can't imagine the report saying anything bad. It is meant to just state condition and recommendations.

It states the exact u value of the insulation and of the windows. It points out that improving them would have a "high level" impact on heat retention.

It states the doors are of a poor nature and fitting newer more draught resistant doors would have a "high" impact on heat retention.

That's just two things, it also says the cost to rectify these is "high" & "medium" respectively.


Anyway its essentially not the BER that's the problem, its an aside, I have had the landlord out about the heating and was informed it was the boiler, when that proved not to be the case, I researched it and then found the BER, so I am basing my problems on living in the house, not the BER, the BER just confirms everything I am saying, which is no coincidence.

If LL's have to have a BER they should have to advertise the houses with it attached or at least the actual rating there to be seen. That's for another day though.

Just t be clear once again, I am not blaming my landlord for this, its simply the situation I find myself in.

BostonB

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Be realistic. Not many can afford to upgrade rental property. You are talking at least a couple of month rental income for the tenants comfort.
The BER is very faulty system and doesn't tell you much. I certainly can't imagine the report saying anything bad. It is meant to just state condition and recommendations.

Put the temperature sensor in front of the window/door and keep a log of the temps.Or put some thing that moves in a draught and video that, or show the LL.

Ray Palmer

BostonB wrote: »

Put the temperature sensor in front of the window/door and keep a log of the temps.Or put some thing that moves in a draught and video that, or show the LL.

The point is what is the LL going to do about it? No obligation to do anything and it is costly. I wouldn't do it if I hadn't the money. The tenant isn't going to want to stay while the work is done either.
New windows and doors can easily cost 5 k and then there is redecoration. Do you really see the LL forking out the money?

Hailhail1967

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The point is what is the LL going to do about it? No obligation to do anything and it is costly. I wouldn't do it if I hadn't the money. The tenant isn't going to want to stay while the work is done either.
New windows and doors can easily cost 5 k and then there is redecoration. Do you really see the LL forking out the money?

I don't expect him to either, hence why I have been considering ways to get away from here that won't leave me completely broke.

I have admitted its obviously my own fault but I now have to put my health first.

An aside to your comment, if you were providing a service in general (not a property) if that service was of a poor standard, would you try to improve it? I know I would in my business, otherwise I would not have a business. The landlord of this house AT BEST is looking at having the house empty for a few months every year as he try's to find another unsuspecting tennant. That cost will add up quickly.

The market is full of places to rent now so hopefully people are more vigilant than me and the poor standard ones can remain empty. I know I will be making a sustained effort to make sure people do not fall into the same trap I did. If your a LL and can't afford to have the house up to standard, then stop renting it and go live in it yourself.

To anyone who says tough luck, I accept that for myself. I do believe the BER should should have to be displayed with each house advert, make things allot simpler.

Rasmus

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

I don't expect him to either, hence why I have been considering ways to get away from here that won't leave me completely broke.

I have admitted its obviously my own fault but I now have to put my health first.

An aside to your comment, if you were providing a service in general (not a property) if that service was of a poor standard, would you try to improve it? I know I would in my business, otherwise I would not have a business. The landlord of this house AT BEST is looking at having the house empty for a few months every year as he try's to find another unsuspecting tennant. That cost will add up quickly.

The market is full of places to rent now so hopefully people are more vigilant than me and the poor standard ones can remain empty. I know I will be making a sustained effort to make sure people do not fall into the same trap I did. If your a LL and can't afford to have the house up to standard, then stop renting it and go live in it yourself.

To anyone who says tough luck, I accept that for myself. I do believe the BER should should have to be displayed with each house advert, make things allot simpler.

OP have you talked to threshold yet? They might be able to help you navigate out of this problem without leaving you or the LL with financial losses, or at least minimizing them.

Hailhail1967

Rasmus wrote: »

OP have you talked to threshold yet? They might be able to help you navigate out of this problem without leaving you or the LL with financial losses, or at least minimizing them.

Have a meeting with my landlord this afternoon so going to see how that goes firstly anyway.

BostonB

Ray Palmer wrote: »

The point is what is the LL going to do about it? No obligation to do anything and it is costly. I wouldn't do it if I hadn't the money. The tenant isn't going to want to stay while the work is done either.
New windows and doors can easily cost 5 k and then there is redecoration. Do you really see the LL forking out the money?

I don't get your mindset. They will struggle to rent to place while it has these problems. They'll get dire tenants and lots of hassle. Ultimately they will lose rent on the place. Property needs to maintained. At some point they'll need to bite the bullet on it. Why no do it when they have a tenant in for 12 months to cover the cost.

Windows can be put in a day or so. You can also stagger it, do say the most exposed windows and doors first, then come back and do the other ones later. You can do things like install heavy curtains and make sure there's no gaps around windows, and put in draught excluder strips.

People have lived in houses like these for a hundred years and managed. Giving up at the first hurdle is a very defeatist attitude.

Of course if you are running a business (renting) and find you have not enough money to maintain it, then you need to realise the business is not viable.

Ray Palmer

Guys you have it all messed up in your head. The house was built to modern specs. The request to have it above that standard is basically unreasonable.
Have all the privately owned property upgraded? I doubt it.
Effectively a tenant is asking to have a better standard than if bought personally. That is actually asking for better than the market has.
LL would be mad to let you break the lease.

I personally upgraded all my properties but they are all 30+ years. If I bought a house in the 90s I wouldn't be expecting a huge upgrade bill. Be clear here this is upgrade not maintenance.

The op has mentioned cold near doors and windows not draughts. I would like to hear the actual temperatures in the house.

I know I grew up in a house that was of its time and draughty.

The health concerns seem exaggerated. It is easily possible to warm two rooms in most houses.

Hailhail1967

Maybe if you checked the BER of said 90's house and seen the amount of work it needed you wouldn't be buying it anyway, so your correct in that.

If I am buying or renting a house it is irrelevant, why should someone buying a house have a better standard?

Landlord and the Agency owner called to me today. They were both astonished at the heat in the house. They find it hard to believe I have had heating on at all. The landlord and agent have said that they will get me into another house if that's what I really want.

They are also making efforts to improve the insulation, starting from today. They have assured me that if the gas meter keeps running at its current rate and the house is still as it is today, they will absorb some of the heating bills until it is fully rectified. We are agreeing something concrete on this later in the week.

How dare you say the health concerns are exaggerated.

I'm only glad my own LL has some level of decency.

Rasmus

That's great news OP, glad your LL is a decent sort.

youcancallmeal

I'm a bit worried now, moving into a new place shortly where BER is G
Only positive is that since the BER was done the old wooden style windows have been replaced with modern double glazing. Still though the high ceilings are probably the killer

Ray Palmer

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

If I am buying or renting a house it is irrelevant, why should someone buying a house have a better standard?

.

If you buy a house you tend to improve it so it is better than originally built. That is why they can have better. Their own money spent on improvements.

Be grateful your LL can afford to upgrade the property. Not many can

Rasmus

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Be grateful your LL can afford to upgrade the property. Not many can

A LL who can't afford to upgrade a rental property to a liveable standard shouldn't be renting it out.

Ray Palmer

Rasmus wrote: »

A LL who can't afford to upgrade a rental property to a liveable standard shouldn't be renting it out.

So a house built to building regs in the 90s is not liveable? Also not somebody also pointed out they are going to rent a G rate.

Be absolutely clear the house has never been said to be sub standard just cold.

BostonB

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Guys you have it all messed up in your head. The house was built to modern specs. The request to have it above that standard is basically unreasonable. ...

Your premise is because you've not experienced this, it can't be true. Of course it can.

I've seen/lived in new houses (under 10yrs old) which are so badly built there's a breeze running through them despite double glazing and Alu windows/doors. Gaps in windows frames and doors, inner and outer you could pass a magazine though. Straight through, unbaffled vents which are basically a 4" hole in every room. You can't heat them.

Just because something is new and has new technology/standards in it, doesn't mean it can't be cold. Especially when they don't check half this stuff when its built. Look at Priory Hall.

djimi

Ray Palmer wrote: »

If you buy a house you tend to improve it so it is better than originally built. That is why they can have better. Their own money spent on improvements.

Be grateful your LL can afford to upgrade the property. Not many can

The house the OP described is not fit for human habitation. If a landlord cannot afford to upgrade it to what would be considered to be normal standards then they should not be renting it out at all.

I am very glad that not all landlords think like you, and that some (the majority from my experience) treat their tenants like people, not just money in the bank, and they show some level of consideration towards their living conditions. This country has moved a long way from the tenaments that people used to rent a hundred years ago, but by the sounds of the way you talk that is the sort of conditions that you still expect your tenants to put up with.

Rasmus

Ray Palmer wrote: »

So a house built to building regs in the 90s is not liveable? Also not somebody also pointed out they are going to rent a G rate.

Be absolutely clear the house has never been said to be sub standard just cold.

Of course a 90s house is liveable - with good insulation. In any case, the house in question was considered to be very cold by the LL. What are you arguing, really?

djimi

youcancallmeal wrote: »

I'm a bit worried now, moving into a new place shortly where BER is G
Only positive is that since the BER was done the old wooden style windows have been replaced with modern double glazing. Still though the high ceilings are probably the killer

I would run a mile from anywhere with a rating that low. Even if the windows were upgraded Id not want to be the one to take a punt that its now at a decent level.

youcancallmeal

djimi wrote: »

I would run a mile from anywhere with a rating that low. Even if the windows were upgraded Id not want to be the one to take a punt that its now at a decent level.

Too late for us now unfortunately, fully committed and extracting ourselves would be a very messy affair. Besides it would probably take ages to find a place like this that ticks so many boxes for us. The only room I am a bit worried about is the sitting room but it has 2 radiators and a fireplace so I reckon we should be okay. Place we are about to move out of only has 1 radiator in a huge sitting room and it is tolerable. No BER was ever done though so can't compare.

Hailhail1967

If you have an open fire at least you will be able to heat that room anyway. I personally will check the BER before even visiting a house in the future. Not because it is the be all and end all but because it will certainly give you an idea of how the house will perform.

Anyway the LL has made a big effort and I can't ask for more for now. He may get a shock later in the week when he has seen how much the meter is ticking over and the house is still freezing.

Heating on for 3 1/2 hours now since landlord came and I can still see my breath, don't tell me that's normal, healthy or anything else. My agent even mentioned it felt warmer outside than inside the house.

Ray its people like you who give landlords a bad name. If a house cannot physically be heated no matter the cost surely it is sub standard. The regulations state a heating device in each room capable of sufficiently heating that space. Our heating devices cannot heat the space.

Ray Palmer

BostonB wrote: »

Your premise is because you've not experienced this, it can't be true. Of course it can.

I've seen/lived in new houses (under 10yrs old) which are so badly built there's a breeze running through them despite double glazing and Alu windows/doors. Gaps in windows frames and doors, inner and outer you could pass a magazine though. Straight through, unbaffled vents which are basically a 4" hole in every room. You can't heat them.

Just because something is new and has new technology/standards in it, doesn't mean it can't be cold. Especially when they don't check half this stuff when its built. Look at Priory Hall.

Your premise is just made up. The op has never mentioned gaps in the walls or anything close. Built to regs means that not anything else such as not built correctly.
Chances are I have been on more building sites and seen more builds than you. The BER would have mentioned said holes too.

djimi wrote: »

The house the OP described is not fit for human habitation. If a landlord cannot afford to upgrade it to what would be considered to be normal standards then they should not be renting it out at all.

I am very glad that not all landlords think like you, and that some (the majority from my experience) treat their tenants like people, not just money in the bank, and they show some level of consideration towards their living conditions. This country has moved a long way from the tenaments that people used to rent a hundred years ago, but by the sounds of the way you talk that is the sort of conditions that you still expect your tenants to put up with.

Go ahead a quote the op where they describe it unfit for humans other than saying it is cold.

My property is in better condition and a higher BER than most housing in Ireland. While you can't distinguish between realistic honesty and the person. For example you don't get to say who can and can't rent property. You can't should people in or out of the market.
There are laws in places and they are to be adherd to. So you saying a LL who can't afford to upgrade a property shouldn't rent means nothing. Where as saying they may not be willing or able to afford upgrades is realistic.
So to recap stating realty is not stating my opinion. You may bare that in mind when you accuse people of things not in evidence.

Ray Palmer

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

Ray its people like you who give landlords a bad name. .

Want to explain that?what have I done other than give you a different view. You can check other posts. I have insulated all my properties and replaced the windows.
Telling you that the LL didn't have to do anything is still the truth. He hasn't done it yet BTW.

djimi

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Go ahead a quote the op where they describe it unfit for humans other than saying it is cold.

If you have the heat on in a room for four hours and you can still see your breath for the cold then the house is not fit for human habitation. For all your bravado in this thread Id love to see how long you yourself would put up with renting a house in these conditions.

Ray Palmer wrote: »

My property is in better condition and a higher BER than most housing in Ireland. While you can't distinguish between realistic honesty and the person. For example you don't get to say who can and can't rent property. You can't should people in or out of the market.
There are laws in places and they are to be adherd to. So you saying a LL who can't afford to upgrade a property shouldn't rent means nothing. Where as saying they may not be willing or able to afford upgrades is realistic.
So to recap stating realty is not stating my opinion. You may bare that in mind when you accuse people of things not in evidence.

If a landlord is prepared to inform the tenant that the house is subject to arctic levels of freezing temperatures during winter and they will rely on extra layers of clothing, woolly hats, duvets and hot water bottles just to stay warm in the house and the tenants signs a lease based on this then yes, the landlord is free to rent the property in this condition.

How many landlords do you think are this honest though, and how many tenants do you think have to find out the hard way that the property they are renting is not up to acceptable standards?

BostonB

Ray Palmer wrote: »

Your premise is just made up. The op has never mentioned gaps in the walls or anything close. Built to regs means that not anything else such as not built correctly.
Chances are I have been on more building sites and seen more builds than you. The BER would have mentioned said holes too. ....

How is my direct experience a premise???

Also I wasn't talking of the OP experience, I was talking of my own. How can you get those two things mixed up???

Build to modern spec/reg is a meaningless sound bite. Its pretty clear that the building industry is in broad terms not regulated.

"systemic building control failure"

An unpublished 2005 Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland report found that new homes were failing to meet minimum energy efficiency, ventilation and fire safety regulations during the boom, as Construct Ireland has revealed in today's Irish Times.
The report, obtained by Construct Ireland editor Jeff Colley, also showed worrying evidence that the trend in energy consumption levels – which had been gradually falling in homes built between 1981 and 1996 – shifted to dramatic increases in energy use for houses built from 1997 to 2002.
SEAI commissioned The Energy Performance Survey of Irish housing in 2004, which was carried out by City of Dublin Energy Management Agency, DIT and three regional energy agencies between January and May 2005.
The report analysed the energy performance of a representative sample of 150 houses and apartments to establish a profile of the national housing stock, with a smaller sample of 52 homes built between 1997 & 2002 checked for compliance with Part L, F and J - the building regulations that deal with conservation of fuel and power, ventilation, and requirements for boilers respectively. The homes were also checked for compliance with SI 260 of 1994, which sets requirements for boiler efficiency.
Of the 52 homes inspected, none complied with all three of the building regulations selected, while only one complied in full with energy efficiency standards under Part L of the building regulations.

This also highlights the flaws in the BER...

The report found that 87% of homes were “properly” insulated, based on visual inspections. Surveyors could only check wall insulation through vents (where present) and ESB boxes. As floor insulation could not be seen, the report assumes 100% of floors complied.
20 of the 52 homes underwent infrared thermal imaging tests – the building equivalent of an X- ray. This data – which was not counted in the building regulations compliance check – found that:
70% had insulation missing from walls and roofs (55% has “some” and 15% had “extensive” missing insulation). This strongly undermines the conclusion that 87% were “properly insulated”;
“about half” are potential condensation risks;
two thirds had significant cold bridges at windows, sills and wall closures;
there was a significant difference in the purchased heat energy for the different buildings linked to amounts of missing insulation identified by thermal imaging. The six houses which had “good” levels of insulation and eleven houses which had “fair” levels purchased 17 and 13% less energy than the calculated energy rating estimate, but the 3 “poor” houses purchased 25% more than calculated.

http://www.constructireland.ie/News/Government/Unpublished-SEAI-report-showed-systemic-building-control-failure.html

BostonB

Hailhail1967 wrote: »

....The regulations state a heating device in each room capable of sufficiently heating that space. Our heating devices cannot heat the space.

I thought it was simply a heating device in each room. ?