Thread closed on LGBT forum.

xareik

I believe my thread has been unfairly locked on the LGBT forum by the moderator mango salsa.

The reasons given were trolling & making deliberately offensive statements, neither of which I believe my thread was guilty of.

I have recieved support from another mod, who was actually the one who advised me to challenge this decision.

I hope this decision is reversed as I feel I am being unfairly treated simply because the issues I wish to discuss are somewhat contraversial in nature. (I don't feel that is a good enough reason to stop people from discussing issues)

Here is a link to the tread in question: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056821373&page=2

As you can see there is a wide variety of opinions being aired, but most I feel are being civil and respectful in their comments.

Thank you,
Xareik

Annasopra

The thread was closed because it is clearly in breach of the forum charter parts 6 and 7.

6. No trolling or flaming. This means posting something that you feel will incite anger and/or abusive posting. This is usually thinly veiled insults. Starting up threads for the singular purpose of inviting such flames is also discouraged. It is the moderators discretion to decide whether a poster is trolling or flaming.

7. Abusive language that is homophobic/transphobic will not be tolerated and the persons posting it will be banned from the forum. Saying that transgender is a choice, saying that trans surgeries are cosmetic, or calling trans people "a man/woman who thinks they are a woman/man ", will result in an immediate infraction and/or ban, as these things aren't "opinions", they are falsehoods rooted in transphobia.

Zaph

As you have not received a warning, infraction or ban, this is not an issue for the DRF. Therefore I'm moving this thread to Help Desk.

Spear

And since it's moved, I've restored Mango Salsa's answer as it's now allowed and explains the closure.

xareik

mango salsa wrote: »

The thread was closed because it is clearly in breach of the forum charter parts 6 and 7.

6. No trolling or flaming. This means posting something that you feel will incite anger and/or abusive posting. This is usually thinly veiled insults. Starting up threads for the singular purpose of inviting such flames is also discouraged. It is the moderators discretion to decide whether a poster is trolling or flaming.

7. Abusive language that is homophobic/transphobic will not be tolerated and the persons posting it will be banned from the forum. Saying that transgender is a choice, saying that trans surgeries are cosmetic, or calling trans people "a man/woman who thinks they are a woman/man ", will result in an immediate infraction and/or ban, as these things aren't "opinions", they are falsehoods rooted in transphobia.

(Re: 6.)

Nothing in my OP was intended to incite anger. I put forth the idea that people should have the right to choose their sexuality (if possible). Which btw is by no means a new suggestion or an original notion even in these boards... I've seen similar suggestions made by others on here.

That's part of the reason why I thought it was worth creating a thread in which to discuss it.

In what way is that intended to incite anger? If that makes people angry, then they need to take a long hard look at what their moral values are... and it says much more about them than it does about the person posing the question.

You are suggesting that fighting for someone's right to more choices regarding something as fundamental as their sexuality is justification for anger!? I'm sorry, but I could not disagree more strongly with that attitude.

(re: 7.)

There is no abusive/homophobic or transphobic language in my OP or subsequent comments on the thread.

I stated in my OP "Transgender people have the right to choose what gender they wish to be..."

This was a statement in regard to their right to choose sexual re-alignment surgery if they wish to. And was used as a direct example to explain why people should have precisely the same right afforded to them in relation to their sexuality.

Nothing in that OP is abusive/homophobic or transphobic, and I would find it quite remarkable if anyone else agreed with you on that point.

You have said it is in clear breach of those forum charters. I think I've shown that this is anything BUT clear.

Annasopra

Re point 6;

Your posts in the lgbt forum have very clearly incited anger from many posters - many posters clearly believed this discussion was started for the sole reason of trolling and flaming and they have stated this. Frankly suggesting that lgb people are mentally ill, lgbt people choose their sexual orientation or gender identity will have that affect.

I'm not sure why you are surprised that people are angry and offended at your opinions.

Re point 7

Stating that lgbt people can choose their sexual orientation or gender identity are falsehoods rooted in homophobia and transphobia.

Comparing sexual orientation to plastic surgery is frankly nonsense and insulting.

Suggesting lgb people are mentally ill as you did in the previous thread is deeply homophobic.

The LGBT forum does not welcome homophobic and transphobic abuse dressed up as opinion and debate.

At this stage it is better if I absent myself from further discussion on this. If you want to appeal further then you will have to ask the cmods to look at the issue.

xareik

Re point 6;

Your posts in the lgbt forum have very clearly incited anger from many posters - many posters clearly believed this discussion was started for the sole reason of trolling and flaming and they have stated this. Frankly suggesting that lgb people are mentally ill, lgbt people choose their sexual orientation or gender identity will have that affect.

There were a number of people in the thread in question who felt the complete opposite of what you are suggesting - and stated as much. And those individuals did not post anything offensive or insulting towards the lgbt community either.

The only thing I am guilty of here, is holding some views that devide opinions - that is the essence of debate.


I'm not sure why you are surprised that people are angry and offended at your opinions.

I think the reaction on the thread has been fairly evenly split between support and opposition. The picture you are trying to paint of overwhelming opposition to my points, is simply not true.

Frynge "I think the OP raises some points worthy of discussion"

Fran17 "excellent points xareik"

hytrogen "I highlighted in bold points you make that are very valid and go dismissed quite frequently with blind prejudice"


For a thread that is only 2 pages old mango... it doesn't look to me like the majority of posters are viewing the thread the way you are suggesting.

Re point 7

Stating that lgbt people can choose their sexual orientation or gender identity are falsehoods rooted in homophobia and transphobia.

I never stated this. As a mod, you could at least do me the courtesy of reading my points and understanding them correctly before locking the thread.

Comparing sexual orientation to plastic surgery is frankly nonsense and insulting.

Actually, what is insulting is that you would seek to diminish people's concerns regarding what they see as physical defects, in order to discredit my points.

Cosmetic surgery is not trivial in any way. It is every bit as serious as an issue as sexual orientation. People struggle just as much with a percieved physical defect as they do with concerns about sexual orientation or gender.

The LGBT forum does not welcome homophobic and transphobic abuse dressed up as opinion and debate.

As I have shown, there is no basis for this in anything I have said in this thread. There is nothing homophobic/transphobic in my comments.

At this stage it is better if I absent myself from further discussion on this. If you want to appeal further then you will have to ask the cmods to look at the issue.

I thought that was the purpose of posting this here?

I don't see what is to be gained from discussing this with you, as your views are deeply entrenched at this point.

I would very much like the cmods to take a look at this, and your conduct as forum moderator. The fact you saw fit to close my thread without having even properly read or understood the points within it... is frankly very concerning from a forum moderator.

The only conclusion I can make is that you have decided to blindly tar me with the brush of homophobia/transphobia out of ignorance. I don't think that is acceptable from anyone, never mind a moderator.

Further more, you have a responsibilty to treat each thread on it's own merits. It's unfair to judge the thread in question based on a previous locked one.

I am not here to defend the previous thread. I could have at the time, but I chose not to... I decided it was better to move on and make another attempt at a discussion.

L.Jenkins

While we embrace open discussion and debate in the LGBT forum, the LGBT mods are in agreement, that this is trolling dressed up as a debate. The thread itself has incited anger from the regular posters in the forum.

Many of the posts you have cited are not from regular posters in the forum and I too would find their agreement with your points as questionable to say the least.

xareik

Itzy wrote: »

While we embrace open discussion and debate in the LGBT forum, the LGBT mods are in agreement, that this is trolling dressed up as a debate. The thread itself has incited anger from the regular posters in the forum.

Many of the posts you have cited are not from regular posters in the forum and I too would find their agreement with your points as questionable to say the least.

Can't say I'm surprised with this decision really. Some of the private messages of support I've recieved have warned my not to expect much...

It seems the LGBT forum is not a place for serious discussions, but merely fluffy PC stuff that panders to the sensitivities of regulars (god forbid anyone should 'rub someone up the wrong way' while trying to discuss an emotive issue)

I also find it a bit sad really, that the main critera for closing this thread appears to have been the negative reaction to the previous thread.

I would have expected this thread to be judged more on it's own merits - particularly since I made it very clear in a number of private messages to mods that I wished to avoid any furter undue hostility in future threads...

But I guess I will now be subject to judgement when opening threads, regardless of how they are worded. As that is what's happening here.

Dangerous precedent really... at what point do my future posts get judged solely on their own merits and not on some past (percieved) wrong I have commited...??

Highly unjust decision.

Dades

xareik wrote: »

I also find it a bit sad really, that the main critera for closing this thread appears to have been the negative reaction to the previous thread.

And I find it sad that you have nothing better to do with your time than troll the LGBT forum.

Your first thread was basically:

"Here's what I think of you lot... [insert offensive text]. What do you have to say about it?"

So you are either deliberately trolling, or so lacking in social intellegence that you fail to understand how your comments would be construed. Either way, I suggest not posting in that forum again as clearly your attitude toward and misconceptions about homosexuality is only ever going to put you at odds with both the users and the moderators.

xareik

Dades wrote: »

And I find it sad that you have nothing better to do with your time than troll the LGBT forum.

Your first thread was basically:

"Here's what I think of you lot... [insert offensive text]. What do you have to say about it?"

So you are either deliberately trolling, or so lacking in social intellegence that you fail to understand how your comments would be construed. Either way, I suggest not posting in that forum again as clearly your attitude toward and misconceptions about homosexuality is only ever going to put you at odds with both the users and the moderators.

Actually, I don't think it's a problem with my social intelligence... But more to do with mob mentality and deep insecurities on the part of many in this community.

If people were more open minded and less insecure on the issues in question, they would react far less aggresively towards me.

Then you might actually have a chance of a decent discussion. But most people are too quick at putting up their defensive walls and cowardly hiding behind terms like "homophobic" & "transphobic"...

It's just a convenient way of not having to answer difficult questions or examine your life in any meaningful way.

Btw, I would have considered myself part of the LGBT community in the past... but the huge contradictions and hypocracy of some people really does a good job of alienating certain people.

The LGBT community is not as liberal or accepting as they like the world to think... Except when it suits a certain agenda.

They react with just as much hostility and fear towards those who attempt to shine a light on certain things as any other section of society. (quite disappointing from a section of society that should be capable of being alot more open minded...)

Dades

xareik wrote:

Actually, I don't think it's a problem with my social intelligence... But more to do with mob mentality and deep insecurities on the part of many in this community.

Of course, it's nothing to do with you, and all to do with the mob mentality and other people's insecurities.

Nothing at all to do with remarks like this:

xareik wrote: »

You see, I view Hetrosexuality as the only TRUELY ligitimate sexual orientation. Anything different from this (and I'm aware that even within a hetro relationship there can be some elements of homosexual behaviour) is deviant behaviour and should not be termed 'sexual orientation'.

I also believe that anything that deviates from hetrosexual behaviour, is in fact a mental disorder - not hugely dissimilar from any other mental/sexual disorder. (pedophillia, bestiality etc..)

You can dance around this notion that you have some legitimate agenda, but rest assured that nobody reading your posts (gay, straight or otherwise) fails to see them for what they are.

xareik

Dades wrote: »

Of course, it's nothing to do with you, and all to do with the mob mentality and other people's insecurities.

Nothing at all to do with remarks like this:

You can dance around this notion that you have some legitimate agenda, but rest assured that nobody reading your posts (gay, straight or otherwise) fails to see them for what they are.

My comments and opinions are contraversial... of that there can be no doubt.

But the reaction from certain posters (and mods) simply shows me that many people are not as secure in their identity or way of life as they would have the world believe...

If they were, then why react with such anger and hostility? If my opinions are complete BS... Why not challenge those assertions with a view to highlighting the flaws in my ideas?

It really is sad that one can't put forward a set of opinions that clash with commonly held beliefs, without being beaten down and condemned... shamed into silence. What does that say about this community? But more importantly, what does that say about us as a society?

I have had this type of discussion in other countries and with other nationalities... with far less hostility than here.

I'm not an outsider from the LGBT community (or at least I wasn't)... So it's not like I'm some ignorant outsider with no knowledge of things.

Maybe I should have expected this kind of reaction - it is Ireland after all. We tend to take a lot longer to catch up with other parts of the world... But the sensorship is still quite shocking to me! ('rubbing the regulars up the wrong way' - that was by far the funniest remark I recieved in my correspondence with the mods... Like it's actually possible NOT to upset someone when addressing highly emotive issues such as this! :rolleyes:)

Anyway... no point in dragging a dead horse. Hopefully one day our society will be comfortable discussing these types of issues. But I'm not going to hold my breath!