New Bus Fares Something has to be done.

Lefty2Guns

I've being living in London a year now. Bus fare during the day with your Oyster card is 1.35. No matter how long the journey is once the bus is going that direction. We need a system like that in Ireland. A reduced set rate once you use the Leap card.

carlmango11

Lefty2Guns wrote: »

I've being living in London a year now. Bus fare during the day with your Oyster card is 1.35. No matter how long the journey is once the bus is going that direction. We need a system like that in Ireland. A reduced set rate once you use the Leap card.

At least that way the Leap card could actually make a positive difference to dwell times at stops.

Couldn't believe it when I heard that the new "smart"card still required you to talk to the driver. I actually find cash fares are quicker than using Leap, no waiting around for all that loading crap.

Hilly Bill

devnull wrote: »

If you divide the wages by the number of employees for the year end to December 2010, you get an average wage. That number? €52,656.

For comparison average wage at Bus Eireann is €50,623, Irish Rail is €53,108, both figures to the last available accounts that I can see until the end of December 2010. Not sure what the company name of LUAS is so can't post that.

How do the private operators compare on average salary?

I would say that the majority at those companies would love to be on that wage but i doubt very much that they are.

Hilly Bill

Laneyh wrote: »

It wouldn't be if that lift was reliable, frequent and safe but depending on the route none of those words may apply.

You could also say that depending on the route, that they could be safe, reliable and frequent.

monument

Lefty2Guns wrote: »

I've being living in London a year now. Bus fare during the day with your Oyster card is 1.35. No matter how long the journey is once the bus is going that direction. We need a system like that in Ireland. A reduced set rate once you use the Leap card.

The NTA report on the fare increase notes that Dublin Bus is working on moving to a simplified fare structure.

Cookie_Monster

If you think 2.80 is expensive I just paid $5.60 (3.52 eur) for a journey in Auckland :eek:
thankfully it's just a once off but thats still only a local city bus on an 18km run

Thoie

If you're paying €2.80 each way to go to and from the city centre for work, have you considered a tax saver monthly bus ticket?

If you work 20 days a month, and are paying the lower tax rate, then the monthly ticket will cost you €72.45 (paid through your wages). If all you do is 20 return trips, each trip works out as €1.81. Any additional trips you take (for example on your day off, or to go back into town to socialise in the evenings) are effectively free. See http://www.taxsaver.ie/

Yakuza

I cycle 3-4 times a week, but the days I take the bus, I use the 30-day non-consecutive rambler. It's great value (mine cost €110 as I bought a few of them before the last price hike) so costs me €3.67 a day. Even the bare minimum of buses I could take would be €4.30 at the old rates, and I'd generally end up taking a second bus in the evening (130 bus into city centre in the morning, Dublin Bike to work, then either a bus back to the city centre and a 130 home or a 27X to Fairview and a 130 home, so I'm way up on the deal.

If you're only an occasional user then those 30-day ramblers are great value, but they are expensive to buy up front, it has to be said. If you're a regular user (and your workplace supports the scheme) then the Taxsaver ticket is the way to go.

Stonewolf

carlmango11 wrote: »

At least that way the Leap card could actually make a positive difference to dwell times at stops.

Couldn't believe it when I heard that the new "smart"card still required you to talk to the driver. I actually find cash fares are quicker than using Leap, no waiting around for all that loading crap.

It would also help if it beeped, I always have trouble figuring out when it can actually be removed. I've basically resorted to waiting for the driver to tell me to move on, well done on that one DB.

bk

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I would say that the majority at those companies would love to be on that wage but i doubt very much that they are.

Average wages at:
JJ Kavanagh: €26,256
Aircoach: €37.713

In fairness JJ Kavanagh seems way too low.

At the Aircoach rate, DB wage bill would be €126,000,000 which would mean DB wouldn't even need a subsidy, the revenue alone would cover all the expenses, including fuel.

Or alternatively with the subsidy, they could charge much lower fares, probably lower then 2002 levels, which might actually mean more people using the bus and more revenue.

I have to say, I'm shocked that the DB average wage is higher then Irish Rail!! I mean Irish Rail has to have a lot of staff like engineers, etc. to look after and maintain tracks, signalling, etc. A lot more complicated operation then DB.

howiya

If everyone switched to a leap card in the morning Dublin Bus would want to increase the Leap card fare to increase their revenue as they wouldn't be making money on increased cash fares.

The Dublin Bus scenario is the same as the public finances. Until the costs are addressed joe public will keep having to pick up the tab. Dublin Bus need to look at their wage costs as others have alluded to

Tickityboo

bk wrote: »

Average wages at:
JJ Kavanagh: €26,256
Aircoach: €37.713

In fairness JJ Kavanagh seems way too low.

At the Aircoach rate, DB wage bill would be €126,000,000 which would mean DB wouldn't even need a subsidy, the revenue alone would cover all the expenses, including fuel.

Or alternatively with the subsidy, they could charge much lower fares, probably lower then 2002 levels, which might actually mean more people using the bus and more revenue.

I have to say, I'm shocked that the DB average wage is higher then Irish Rail!! I mean Irish Rail has to have a lot of staff like engineers, etc. to look after and maintain tracks, signalling, etc. A lot more complicated operation then DB.

I can safely say I won't be earning over €40,000 this year less in fact.
That will be the same for most of the DB drivers.
Those figures of over€50,000 are misleading and untrue.
I would say alot of high paid management that most definitley should be cut are schewing the figures!!!

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

If you think 2.80 is expensive I just paid $5.60 (3.52 eur) for a journey in Auckland :eek:
thankfully it's just a once off but thats still only a local city bus on an 18km run

On this actually, regardless on the higher cost they do operate a full change system and have tag on tag off in operation with no driver interaction needed... Not all bad...

bk

Tickityboo wrote: »

I can safely say I won't be earning over €40,000 this year less in fact.
That will be the same for most of the DB drivers.
Those figures of over€50,000 are misleading and untrue.
I would say alot of high paid management that most definitley should be cut are schewing the figures!!!

Nothing misleading or untrue about those figures, they are exactly correct.

As you say it maybe that DB has far too many in management and that those managers are getting paid too much.

But either way to me in clearly shows that the wage bill is the major problem at DB, not fuel prices and not decreasing subsidy and until that is fixed, DB will remain in a death spiral of falling passenger numbers and increasing ticket prices.

LXFlyer

I'd argue its all of them bk - the wage bill has reduced by €36m since 2008, but needs to be reduced further. That is a key area, but you cannot look at it in isolation.

Fuel costs have gone up by €7m over the same period, and are forecast to rise by €2m in 2013, increased ITS costs associated with LEAP are significant, while subsidies have dropped by €13m since 2008 and are going to drop a further €4m in 2013.

pc7

I don't use the bus that often so was a bit confused last night, I use a leap card when using the bus. The cash fare for my route was €2.15 and €1.95 for Leap, yesterdya it was €1.90 according to the driver so has my leap equivelent gone down and the cash fare still the same? Or should I be now paying €2.10 leap €2.40 cash? I'm lost! thanks

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

LXFlyer

pc7 wrote: »

I don't use the bus that often so was a bit confused last night, I use a leap card when using the bus. The cash fare for my route was €2.15 and €1.95 for Leap, yesterdya it was €1.90 according to the driver so has my leap equivelent gone down and the cash fare still the same? Or should I be now paying €2.10 leap €2.40 cash? I'm lost! thanks

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

The €2.15 cash fare is now €2.40, while the LEAP fare has increased from €1.95 to €2.10. What journey are you making?

LittleBook

Laneyh wrote: »

It wouldn't be if that lift was reliable, frequent and safe but depending on the route none of those words may apply.

And warm! Have DB decided to tackle their fuel costs by not putting the heat on? I know it's up to the individual driver to actually switch it on, but has there been some kind of a directive about this? I've been on several buses on three/four different routes recently and none of them had the heating on in the morning.

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

Average wages at:
JJ Kavanagh: €26,256
Aircoach: €37.713

In fairness JJ Kavanagh seems way too low.

Have you a verfiable source for such accurate wage rates?

bk wrote: »

I have to say, I'm shocked that the DB average wage is higher then Irish Rail!! I mean Irish Rail has to have a lot of staff like engineers, etc. to look after and maintain tracks, signalling, etc. A lot more complicated operation then DB.

Irish Rail have a lot of staff employed at depotman/general/clerical grades working as gatekeepers, ticket office staff, janitorial and platform duties etc etc; duties that Dublin Bus wouldn't have a need for. At the other end they employ engineers, architects, solicitors and professional grade staff who would be paid more than the average wage quoted. Dublin Bus, on the other hand, have more of their staff at driving and mechanical grades gvien the hands on approach of the job.

I gather that both bodies are top heavy with director and senior management grades; their wages would be well over those on the coal face and thus distorting these figures against their favour.

bikeman1

The bottom line is all staff in DB are paid too much. I know 3 DB drivers who all get paid over 40k and have the option for extra work and extra cash. They are good hard working employees, who deserve to be paid well doing a stressful job.

But everyone has taken a pay cut and if the company can't afford to pay the salaries then they must reduce Everyone's wages. By what amount?

10% for drivers and lower paid operational staff. 20% for the fat cat lazy managers. At least it will start to bring them towards the real world.

AlekSmart

pc7 wrote: »

I don't use the bus that often so was a bit confused last night, I use a leap card when using the bus. The cash fare for my route was €2.15 and €1.95 for Leap, yesterdya it was €1.90 according to the driver so has my leap equivelent gone down and the cash fare still the same? Or should I be now paying €2.10 leap €2.40 cash? I'm lost! thanks

http://www.dublinbus.ie/Fares--Tickets/Fare-Information/Fares/

Pc7,nothing untoward here,just the usual twaddle over the TOP SECRET Fare-Stage Locations.

You most likely have met a driver who did,nt know the stage location and followed the age-old solution of "Keep your stages up".

All very well and good until you get a driver who does know the stages and then you land back to earth with a bang.

E-Mail the company and ask them why they refuse to identify the specific stages on-street......I,m sick,tired and fed-up of enquiring internally.....We may well be the best paid Busdrivers in the Universe,but that's as far as it goes when it comes to input....

As for the side issue of wage rates and Fares,whilst I can see how observers see some form of correlation between the two,the reality is that even if my wages were reduced to a bowl of rice a day,the fares would NOT come down.

Comparisons with other operators are all well and good but the variables across the industry have also to be recognized.

Dublin Bus has a Wage-Freeze in place since 2008 and is aggressively pursuing a negotiation stance of reducing associated payuments such as overtime,sickness and any other ancilliaries which they percieve as worth eliminating.

As other posters have pointed out,leglislative aspects such as the WTA have also served to reduce earnings capability from the "Boom" times,with some drivers now almost 50% below their former levels.

Their is also,however,a general reality EU wide,that the days of Transport Companies having access to large pools of young eager personnel keen to "Go DRiving" are effectively over.

The arrival of full "Drivers Certificate of Professional Competence" along with the considerable tightening up of LGV and PCV Driver Licencing from 2013 virtually eliminates the pool of eager (and cheap) labour.

What this new "Professionalization" also does is significantly increase the notional value of existing Bus and Truckdrivers licences,something which many European operators are now recognizing,albeit reluctantly.

It's a worthwhile exercise to compare the cost of entering the Truck or Busdriving sector now compared to 5 years ago for an enthusiastic individual...the only element I'm suggesting is that whatever else may be deemed desireable for cuts,I'm far from certain that Drivers wage rates will be top-of-the-list.

What the debate does however do,is divert attention from the far more serious and long running issues of why our Public Transport Infrastructure is in such disarray.

Sure,it may be satisfying to heap the blame on the grumpy Busdriver who turns up for work each day,but the really hard questions rarely appear to be asked of senior administrators and management.

Probably a cultural throwback ?

devnull

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Have you a verfiable source for such accurate wage rates?

I think JJ Kavanagh is divided up into several companies is it not? Kenneallys coach services or whatever it is called is also part of the company? So you'd need to take account of that too.

I just looked at Aircoach accounts to March 2011 and that figure seems right, if you divide the total wage bill by the number of employees

I gather that both bodies are top heavy with director and senior management grades; their wages would be well over those on the coal face and thus distorting these figures against their favour.

I'm not saying that is not the case myself, but I'm simply going on publicly published figures, because at the end of the day that is the most fair way to do it as it involves facts rather than assumptions which may be misguided one way or another.

I'm also not pointing finger at drivers or engineers, I have nothing to back that up as such information is not published in the company accounts. Nor am I taking into account the views of CIE staff, or CIE haters, merely just focusing on the known facts.

And it leads me to believe that the average wage in Dublin Bus is too high. Now why that is, is open to debate, but one thing is for sure, that for the company to blame the whole reason of fares going up on the government is very misleading, and some people on this board continue to try and blame the lack of subsidy as being the one major factor.

The problem as I see it, is yes subsidy is falling and that plays a part without doubt, but it is not the only reason and the wage bill is also a major factor. However I'd be interested to know how much subsidy has fallen as a percentage of what it was since 2008 and in turn by what percentage the PSO fleet has shrunk.

If Dublin Bus cut their fleet by a good chunk, which they have in recent years, if subsidy doesn't go down, in real terms it would mean Dublin Bus had an increase in subsidy, as they would be getting the same amount of money for doing less in return

bk

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Have you a verfiable source for such accurate wage rates?

You have to dig, but you can find the information here: http://www.duedil.com/

Losty Dublin

bk wrote: »

You have to dig, but you can find the information here: http://www.duedil.com/

It would be a lot easier if you showed us how you came to the figure in the first place on that site

devnull

Dublin Bus Fleet as of 31st December 2007: 1146
http://web.archive.org/web/20080115222253/http://www.dublinbus.ie/about_us/double_decks.asp

Present Dublin Bus Fleet: 922
http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/About-Us/Dublin-Bus-Fleet/

Fleet as a percentage of start of 2008: 80.45%
Means a cut to the total fleet of 19.55%

Average wage to the year ending 31st December 2007: €53,077 (0.8% more than in their last accounts)

So here we have the stats, all taken from Dublin Bus website and also the official published company accounts and we come to the conclusion that while subsidy has come down by a decent chunk, the fleet has shrunk by an even bigger percentage and average wage is down by just 0.8% from 2007 to the last published accounts to the end of 2010.

devnull

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It would be a lot easier if you showed us how you came to the figure in the first place on that site

Look for the holding company names I would guess then divide the wage bill by the employees would be my far the easiest raw way to do it.

dowlingm

The CIE companies would be a bit tricky though - their costs likely include pension contributions to pay defined-benefits to pensioners who retired when staffing levels were higher.

Does Aircoach even have a company pension scheme? If it does, I presume it is defined-contribution, not defined-benefit.

devnull

dowlingm wrote: »

Does Aircoach even have a company pension scheme? If it does, I presume it is defined-contribution, not defined-benefit.

I have no idea, for my analysis I just used cold hard facts which could be backed up from official sources, I left out anything that could not be backed up by documented facts or was the result of hearsay because then it's not a fair comparison when your basing things on peoples claims which cannot be backed up by any official sources.

Another curious thing from the accounts, director Emoluments were 129,000 in 2007, 121,000 in 2008, 115,000 in 2009 and 175,000 in 2010. (all to the 31st December in the relevant year), I'm curious why there was 52% increase in 12 months and how many people those figures are shared between.

Thoie

devnull wrote: »

I have no idea, for my analysis I just used cold hard facts which could be backed up from official sources, I left out anything that could not be backed up by documented facts or was the result of hearsay because then it's not a fair comparison when your basing things on peoples claims which cannot be backed up by any official sources.

Another curious thing from the accounts, director Emoluments were 129,000 in 2007, 121,000 in 2008, 115,000 in 2009 and 175,000 in 2010. (all to the 31st December in the relevant year), I'm curious why there was 52% increase in 12 months and how many people those figures are shared between.

The names of the directors should be easily available from www.cro.ie, along with details of the payments, unless there's separate laws for semi-state?

Tragedy

My Dad was (lightly) involved in setting up a contract with Dublin Bus providing DB with a service related to maintenance/upkeep of the buses. A previous company had provided the same service, but the new company believed they could provide the same service for less and so tendered the contract out.

Taking over the contract meant providing staff at each of the depots, non-DB staff employed by the company tendering the contract.

The caveat was, DB Unions treated these non-DB staff as being essentially DB in all but name so insisted upon
1)Continuity of staff
2)Above average wages (comparable to public sector along with increments and pension)
3)Above average conditions (basically along the lines of Public Service)
4)Public Service tenure and inability to be fired or have wages cut
And threatened to scupper the deal and strike if this wasn't continued.

If that's the attitude taken to people who don't even work for Dublin Bus by staff and unions, why is there any surprise at the wage bill?