Advice please re RB dogs on loose

TillyGirl

TillyGirl wrote: »

Exactly, but the breed shouldnt come into it. There are a lot of large breeds not on the list that are capable of the same damage as a RB.

Edit: here is a list of large dog breeds and from a quick glance only 5 are on the RB list...doesnt make sense.

http://www.justdogbreeds.com/large-dog-breeds.html

I'm not bringing all of the breeds into it.

I'm bringing my breed into it because I'm qualified to make that statement on the basis that I own an Akita, have been been exposed to Akitas and worked and still do work my butt off to make sure my Akita is balanced.

golden8

Judge the dog not the breed all dogs require to be under control. My dog has been attacked by a westie But I don't say all westies are bad.

toadfly

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm not bringing all of the breeds into it.

I'm bringing my breed into it because I'm qualified to make that statement on the basis that I own an Akita, have been been exposed to Akitas and worked and still do work my butt off to make sure my Akita is balanced.

Owing an Akita doesnt make you qualified for anything. You cannot judge the breed by one dog.

TillyGirl

TillyGirl wrote: »

Owing an Akita doesnt make you qualified for anything. You cannot judge the breed by one dog.

Every 'proper' Akita breeder I've ever spoken to including those in the Akita Association of Ireland have told me that this is a dog that should always be on leash and never left to roam. It's also against the law to do otherwise so why do it?

Edit: Tillygirl, it's a subjective thing and it's the law. But I'm not going to call the police on anyone for letting their dog whether RB or not off their leash. I just ask as I've stated (and this is the third time) if you can't control your dog or if your dog likes to attack dogs three times their size, keep the leash on!

DamagedTrax

TillyGirl wrote: »

You cannot judge the breed by one dog.

true.. but you can make assumptions based on your knowledge of the breed.

for instance i wouldnt leave 2 pit bulls alone together. i wouldnt leave a staffie alone with a cat.

not all pbt will fight and not all staffies will kill a cat but the danger is always a consideration. and the fact that akita have fighting blood (however watered down these days) is still a consideration that cannot be ignored.

Intensive Care Bear

Some people will only accept the existence of breed specific traits when it is something positive.

ISDW

Deleted User wrote: »

My argument wasn't about RB solely. I have an RB.

My point is this: If you can't control your dog or if your dog likes to attack dogs three times their size, keep the maniac on a leash please!!!

Plus, I don't ever believe Akitas (THE BREED I HAVE) should be allowed roam in a public place.

Get me?

But how do you know that the Akita that you might meet would attack your dog?

No need to shout, I know you have an Akita, but I also know akitas who are lovely, well mannered dogs, both with people and other dogs.

Would love to meet a dog thats 3 times the size of an akita

I agree that dogs should be under control, no matter what breed they are.

Rommie

I should tell the four akitas here that they're supposed to hate each other. Remarkable how we have three males and a female living in harmony when akitas are apparently expected to randomly attack each other. On the leash part of it I agree that an akita shouldn't be let roam, but then again i feel that no dog should be allowed roam regardless of breed. I can't even count the amount of times my housemate's come back from a walk where a random dog attacked one of them. And they are always on lead

ISDW

ISDW wrote: »

But how do you know that the Akita that you might meet would attack your dog?

No need to shout, I know you have an Akita, but I also know akitas who are lovely, well mannered dogs, both with people and other dogs.

Would love to meet a dog thats 3 times the size of an akita

I agree that dogs should be under control, no matter what breed they are.

I don't but my point is they're not the sort of dogs you'd approach or want to meet unless you know them very well. That's coming from someone who has only ever had good experiences with the breed.

One thing we agree on is all dogs should be under control.

Suucee

OP you have just moved in. If this person doesnt care enough to keep his dogs in (for their own safety aswell as others) i think if you called to the door you might make more trouble for yourself.
I have 4 dogs 2 large 2 small none RB. i wouldnt dream of letting any of them out in a housing estate or any public area off leash. Their walked every morning and brought off to a field every so often to run around.
There is always a little king charles who's let out roaming around unleashed. I dont know who owns him but i think it is madness. King charles not a RB but this fella is mad ive lost count of how many times we have come across him and he has ran in to attack my lot. Needless to say he came out worse for wear but every time we come across him he does it. As i said he roams aroud so much we dont know who owns him or even where he lives.
The last time OH was walking our dogs i was pushing pram and he came up from no where and ran straight into the middle of ours. Neither of us seen it coming. My soft oul lab nearly had a heart attack and tried to run off but couldnt (she was leashed to the others). While my other 3 were fighting back and my terrier ended up biting my collie in the process of the mess. OH was trying to get a bit of control but it all happened so quick. He was trying to pull ours away but king charles was in the middle and our Lab was going mad trying to get away . I ended up pushing pram into a garden for safety and just grabbing king charles out of the mess by the tail . (i know so stupid really sticking hand into dog fight but all happened so fast).
My 3 ended up roughed up but no one hurt. And my poor lab was a nervous wreck.
Lucky enough havent seen the little f**ker since while out walking maybe the owner has realised.
We were feeling very guilty but ours were leashed, minding their own buisness and were just defending them selves.

lrushe

DamagedTrax wrote: »

true.. but you can make assumptions based on your knowledge of the breed.

for instance i wouldnt leave 2 pit bulls alone together. i wouldnt leave a staffie alone with a cat.

not all pbt will fight and not all staffies will kill a cat but the danger is always a consideration. and the fact that akita have fighting blood (however watered down these days) is still a consideration that cannot be ignored.

The thing is people assume 2 Pitbulls may fight but rarely consider that a Golden Retreiver may attack a child and that's where assumptions can be dangerous, it's also why a dog should always be seen as a dog first and breed second.
BSL works on assumptions and anyone with eyes can see that doesn't work.

DamagedTrax

lrushe wrote: »

The thing is people assume 2 Pitbulls may fight but rarely consider that a Golden Retreiver may attack a child and that's where assumptions can be dangerous, it's also why a dog should always be seen as a dog first and breed second.
BSL works on assumptions and anyone with eyes can see that doesn't work.

no i agree bsl doesnt work and is based on generalisations and stereo types. but assumptions based on common sense can save animals. if two pits get in a fight and no one is around then there's going to be hurt dogs, and too assume that they will isn't really discriminatory to the breed, some pits just love to fight!

anyway, i dont agree any dogs should be running free around a neighbour hood. RB or not.

Whispered

Deleted User wrote: »

I don't but my point is they're not the sort of dogs you'd approach or want to meet unless you know them very well. That's coming from someone who has only ever had good experiences with the breed.

One thing we agree on is all dogs should be under control.

I love to meet an akita when out, or any dog for that matter. I also, regularly walk with all manner of dogs from bull mastiffs to westies and I very very rarely meet anyone who has any fear which you seem to think your akita deserves.

I really don't see what you're trying to get across and may have misunderstood your point. I can imagine you with your dog shouting "Don't approach it's, it's, IT'S AN AKITA :eek:" :P

toadfly

DamagedTrax wrote: »

no i agree bsl doesnt work and is based on generalisations and stereo types. but assumptions based on common sense can save animals. if two pits get in a fight and no one is around then there's going to be hurt dogs, and too assume that they will isn't really discriminatory to the breed, some pits just love to fight!

anyway, i dont agree any dogs should be running free around a neighbour hood. RB or not.

But any two dogs of the same size/breed have the ability to badly hurt/kill each other. Just because they are pits doesnt mean they are randomly going to attach each other.

DamagedTrax

TillyGirl wrote: »

Just because they are pits doesnt mean they are randomly going to attach each other.

IMO it does actually. considering their breeding pits have a MUCH higher chance for dog aggression. its in their blood. they actually love fighting, its pretty messed up.
when two of them kick off neither will give up and thats how they end up dead. most other breeds will turn and run when hurt, a pit wont.

obviously im not talking about every pit out there but the ratio of aggressive to non-aggressive is so much higher than any other breed of dog.

Whispered

DamagedTrax wrote: »

IMO it does actually. considering their breeding pits have a MUCH higher chance for dog aggression. its in their blood. they actually love fighting, its pretty messed up.
when two of them kick off neither will give up and thats how they end up dead. most other breeds will turn and run when hurt, a pit wont.

obviously im not talking about every pit out there but the ratio of aggressive to non-aggressive is so much higher than any other breed of dog.

I would like to see what a behaviourist would have to say about that because I feel very conflicted about it. I know I haven't got a lot of experience but in the past year I've met so many different dogs. A few of which have been pits, loads of staffies and other breeds. There is one breed that has surprised me for the levels of dog aggression and it's not one that I would have ever expected! This is only anecdotal though, so I would like to hear an academic opinion on your post.

Can I ask where you got this information about ratio of aggression and non-aggression etc.

DamagedTrax

cmon whispered, we all know what they're bred for :rolleyes: there are plenty of pit X out there that have diluted blood and will happily get along with other dogs but the real deal is a different beast altogether.

now im not talking about the kc amstaff/pits that go for silly money, they're bred for the show ring from non-game bloodlines but you dont see many of them about the place anyway. im talking about the gamebred pits that you can see at working shows up and down the country and estates all around dublin. you should try to get along to a show like that, its a real eye opener as to what real dog aggression is like. it scared the sh1t outta me first time i saw it

those type of dogs have no place being off lead in public and their (sensible) owners agree.

the info on ratio is purely from my own experience but it is considered. if im out walking dolly we'll meet maybe 1 aggressive dog out of 10. if we're at a working breed show then the opposite applies.

Mod edit: DT, please don't call others by their real names!
Thanks,
DBB

Whispered

DamagedTrax wrote: »

cmon whispered, we all know what they're bred for :rolleyes: there are plenty of pit X out there that have diluted blood and will happily get along with other dogs but the real deal is a different beast altogether.

now im not talking about the fluffy kc amstaff/pits that go for silly money. im talking about the gamebred pits that you can see at working shows up and down the country. you should try to get along to a show like that, its a real eye opener as to what real dog aggression is like.

Hardly any need for the :rolleyes: ??

You never answered me where you got the ratio's. EDIT: sorry you did. It's also anecdotal then. At working shows where you meet aggressive dogs. If Dolly begins to show aggression, would you consider it nature because of her breed, or nurture because she has been exposed to aggression and so begins to expect and pre-empt it?

juniord

simple rule about keeping apbt never trust them not to fight

DamagedTrax

Whispered wrote: »

Hardly any need for the :rolleyes: ??

You never answered me where you got the ratio's. EDIT: sorry you did. It's also anecdotal then. At working shows where you meet aggressive dogs. If Dolly begins to show aggression, would you consider it nature because of her breed, or nurture because she has been exposed to aggression and so begins to expect and pre-empt it?

it was a light hearted :rolleyes: so :rolleyes:

if dolly began to show aggression at her age i would be looking for reasons other than nature. she's not a dog aggressive staffie and is very well socialised. but she has been to quite a few working breed shows now and the aggression doesnt bother her. funnily enough she is able to socialise with some aggressive dogs. for some reason she doesnt seem the get them fired up. ive read many times before that some game dogs instinctly sense other game dogs and arent concerned with dogs that arent a threat.

but dolly has an aggressive side with any other animal. cats/swans/deers/horses. i certainly cant let her off the lead unless im sure she's in an enclosed area and there's no training her out of it, its just pure full on prey drive.

DamagedTrax

juniord wrote: »

simple rule about keeping apbt never trust them not to fight

exactly. they'll make a fool of you given the chance.

toadfly

DamagedTrax wrote: »

IMO it does actually. considering their breeding pits have a MUCH higher chance for dog aggression. its in their blood. they actually love fighting, its pretty messed up.
when two of them kick off neither will give up and thats how they end up dead. most other breeds will turn and run when hurt, a pit wont.

And obviously you are entitled to your opinion. It doesnt make it fact though.

Most terriers wont run, my Yorkie didnt when she was up against a GSD. She has too much balls unfortunately.

Whispered

DamagedTrax wrote: »

if dolly began to show aggression at her age i would be looking for reasons other than nature. she's not a dog aggressive staffie and is very well socialised.

You know she's not dog aggressive and so you'd look for other reasons, medical and environmental. Doesn't it make sense then that there could be a portion of those pits that you met whose owners would just put it down to breeding, or "gameness" when really the aggression stems from being exposed to aggression? There is no doubt there are some dogs who are inherently DA, but I would imagine there are a large number of them who develop it too.

DamagedTrax

And obviously you are entitled to your opinion. It doesnt make it fact though.

nope it definitly doesnt. i can only give my point of view from being around pits quite a lot. depending on the dogs you meet your opinion can be swayed either way. for instance if you read any info on the breed it will always say that staffies can sometimes be DA but in my experience ive only met one or two that are.

Most terriers wont run, my Yorkie didnt when she was up against a GSD. She has too much balls unfortunately.

not running for a yorkie is very different to a pit bull thats game. they keep fighting even when dying

if you're not too squeemish you should take a look at 'panorama: dog fighting uncovered' or a documentary called 'out of the pit'. not exactly easy viewing but very educational as to what the dogs are capable of... you also get to see some real scumbag dogfighters getting busted by the cops which is always a bonus

DamagedTrax

Whispered wrote: »

You know she's not dog aggressive and so you'd look for other reasons, medical and environmental. Doesn't it make sense then that there could be a portion of those pits that you met whose owners would just put it down to breeding, or "gameness" when really the aggression stems from being exposed to aggression? There is no doubt there are some dogs who are inherently DA, but I would imagine there are a large number of them who develop it too.

i have friends with beautiful family pet pitbulls. some beautiful show winning dogs. they are never exposed to aggression, lead lovely comfortable lives indoors with kids. show them another dog and they lose the plot. thats not nurture, thats down to breeding.

if a pitbull comes from game blood then there's every possibility it will be aggro. just have a look at the pedigrees online and you can see generations of fighting dogs in their history. that has to come out in some of them.

Whispered

So are we in agreement that nurture and/or environment could be a factor in the dogs you meet at working shows?

I'm not denying for a second that DA can be a problem in any of the breeds once bred for that purpose, as owners of those breeds we need to be aware of it, we have a responsibility, probably more so than other breed owners. I'm really not denying that. I just don't think that the ratio is as high as 1 non aggressive dog in ten.

Gumbi

DamagedTrax wrote: »

true.. but you can make assumptions based on your knowledge of the breed.

for instance i wouldnt leave 2 pit bulls alone together. i wouldnt leave a staffie alone with a cat.

not all pbt will fight and not all staffies will kill a cat but the danger is always a consideration. and the fact that akita have fighting blood (however watered down these days) is still a consideration that cannot be ignored.

I think most any breed can be raised in such a way as to be trustworthy around any other animal - especially if the other animal is equally docile.

Gumbi

DamagedTrax wrote: »

i have friends with beautiful family pet pitbulls. some beautiful show winning dogs. they are never exposed to aggression, lead lovely comfortable lives indoors with kids. show them another dog and they lose the plot. thats not nurture, thats down to breeding.

if a pitbull comes from game blood then there's every possibility it will be aggro. just have a look at the pedigrees online and you can see generations of fighting dogs in their history. that has to come out in some of them.

They haven't been socialised correctly. I can easily counter your anecdote with my own; my cousin have 2 pitbulls, both of whom are absolutely great with all people and dogs.

DamagedTrax

nurture could be a factor but its my opinion that when it comes to shows, the high majority are bred that way. the same as KC shows have very precise bred dogs being shown, so do working shows. the dogs are very precisely bred for purpose. and that purpose is to fight.

and before anyone jumps down my throat, im definitly not saying that the owners of these dogs are all fighting them, far from it. but there are a lot of people, myself included, that believe thats how pitbulls should be bred and having the agression bred out of them is wrong. its down to responsible owners to find another outlet for all that energy, such as weightpull and agility.

Gumbi

DamagedTrax wrote: »

nurture could be a factor but its my opinion that when it comes to shows, the high majority are bred that way. the same as KC shows have very precise bred dogs being shown, so do working shows. the dogs are very precisely bred for purpose. and that purpose is to fight.

and before anyone jumps down my throat, im definitly not saying that the owners of these dogs are all fighting them, far from it. but there are a lot of people, myself included, that believe thats how pitbulls should be bred and having the agression bred out of them is wrong. its down to responsible owners to find another outlet for all that energy, such as weightpull and agility.

You realise the logical implication of this post is that the breeder/owner, not the dog is the problem, which is what people here have been trying to say.