New punishments for crimes

oscarBravo

pitythefool wrote: »

Thanks, what recommednations can you make then?

Better minds than me, with more experience in this field, will make the recommendations. I'm just trying to steer the conversation away from the idea that punishment is the sole point of a criminal justice system.

Brevick only got 21 years!

He got the maximum sentence that's legally possible in Norwegian law, but that doesn't mean he's automatically free at the end of it. If he's still considered a risk to society at the end of his sentence, he will continue to be detained until he's not.

Which makes perfect sense. If he's a threat to society, why let him go? If he's not a threat to society, why detain him any longer?

pitythefool

charlemont wrote: »

Its to the left of the main gate.

as in block d, now i have you, soz

pitythefool

oscarBravo wrote: »

Better minds than me, with more experience in this field, will make the recommendations. I'm just trying to steer the conversation away from the idea that punishment is the sole point of a criminal justice system. He got the maximum sentence that's legally possible in Norwegian law, but that doesn't mean he's automatically free at the end of it. If he's still considered a risk to society at the end of his sentence, he will continue to be detained until he's not.

Which makes perfect sense. If he's a threat to society, why let him go? If he's not a threat to society, why detain him any longer?

Thats a good point why would the likes of the Dundons and the Monk be released when they are an obvious danger to society

The recommendations are for current cases that are in he news, not looking for experience just inventve sentences

[Jackass]

Unfortunately, another major area of concern and complete lack of infrastructure that the Bertie boys overlooked during the boom. As with millions wasted on discussing where a stadium should go, they never got around to a complete (as desperately needed) prison reform. The standards of our prisons are one of the worst in the developed world and we should have built a "mega" prison during the boom - as far as I know land was bought and all the usual brown bag issues, but it never got to the green light stage - our country is desperately undermined by the inability to punish criminals and lack of facilities to attempt reform of criminals. We are destined for a revolving door system for the forseable future.

charlemont

WileyCoyote wrote: »

True but you still have to eat sleep and sh*t in the same small space, locked in 16 hours a day.
notice you didn't mention the base.

The way you talk about prisoners being locked up all day you would swear it was against human rights..Most people work an 8 hour day and prison is a punishment too, Fair enough some of the jails are a disgrace I spent one night in Cork and it was a horrible cell, I was on the Mountjoy base for two weeks before An officer I knew got me into the cleaners cell as the committals were holding 10/15 prisoners, They were split in the night into two groups with one group sleeping in the showers. There were some dodgy characters there including Beast Cawley, Its the only place in Ireland where I ever saw a cockroach.

oscarBravo

charlemont wrote: »

The way you talk about prisoners being locked up all day you would swear it was against human rights.

You don't think being locked in your cell all day is contrary to human rights? Is that because you think it's OK to lock any human in a cell for 16 hours of every day, or because you don't think prisoners are human?

charlemont

oscarBravo wrote: »

You don't think being locked in your cell all day is contrary to human rights? Is that because you think it's OK to lock any human in a cell for 16 hours of every day, or because you don't think prisoners are human?

.

And who is actually locked in their cell all day for 16 hours ? Its not like you would have 16 hours straight in a cell.

Someone already posted the daily routine for most prisoners, Anyone I knew that was locked up all day would be there for punishment.

Asking do I think are prisoners human is a bit daft, I'v been a prisoner and deservedly so, Some of the soundest people I'v known have been prisoners.

There is a need for more cell accommodation and workshops to give more prisoners work but honestly what can the staff do with prisoners if there is nothing to do for them, The yards are small but lots of prisoners do pass the day out there too.

But thinking now of prison staff and prisoner safety what exactly would you do with a dangerous prisoner ? Let him out of his cell all day regardless of his behaviour or lock him into confinement till he learns his lesson.

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

Thats a good point why would the likes of the Dundons and the Monk be released when they are an obvious danger to society

The recommendations are for current cases that are in he news, not looking for experience just inventve sentences

Now I know you are just a wind up artist.
the Monk hasn't ever been convicted of any serious offence, In fact I dont think he has been convicted of anything since he was a kid.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Now I know you are just a wind up artist.
the Monk hasn't ever been convicted of any serious offence, In fact I dont think he has been convicted of anything since he was a kid.

Prsumed he was in jail at some point and he is hardly an upstanding cintzen regardless,

Same point then with just the Dundons

pitythefool

England footballer Andy Carroll was accused of gouging the eye of a Dublin Photographer in the paper today, as well as throwing him to the ground

If guilty, what punishment should he recieve

If the photographer is full of BS the what punishment should he get

Sunnyisland

pity the fool wrote: »

England footballer Andy Carroll was accused of gouging the eye of a Dublin Photographer in the paper today, as well as throwing him to the ground

If guilty, what punishment should he receive

If the photographer is full of BS the what punishment should he get

If the jury finds the accused guilty, the judge has to decide what the sentence should be. It can never be up to members of the public high strung on emotions to sentence anyone.

pitythefool

this is experimental, alternative sentences

Sunnyisland

pitythefool wrote: »

this is experimental, alternative sentences

Andy caroll english footballer if found guilty should be sentenced to play for Ireland for the next four years.:)

pitythefool

Funny as that might be, i dont think we want him! Useless

spank_inferno

Does anyone know when the Government last built a prison?

It seems the crims are always back on the streets because there is no capacity to put them away.

pitythefool

spank_inferno wrote: »

Does anyone know when the Government last built a prison?

It seems the crims are always back on the streets because there is no capacity to put them away.

Very true, im sure Wiley can fill us in on this one

I was once mugged by 4 guys on my was into town who were out for good behaviour, my friend had a brain heomrage in the same incident, they were sentenced to a year for me even though i was fine and 6 months suspended for assaulting my mate, to run concurrentlty,

Not just with their sentence for assaulting us but with the sentence they were to be sent back to jail for

And before anyone says thats up to the judge, I know it is what im saying is the judge is wrong

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

Very true, im sure Wiley can fill us in on this one

I was once mugged by 4 guys on my was into town who were out for good behaviour, my friend had a brain heomrage in the same incident, they were sentenced to a year for me even though i was fine and 6 months suspended for assaulting my mate, to run concurrentlty,

Not just with their sentence for assaulting us but with the sentence they were to be sent back to jail for

And before anyone says thats up to the judge, I know it is what im saying is the judge is wrong

"Out on good behaviour" means they served their sentence, they cant be sent back as the good behaviour (as you call it) is remission.
Last prisons to be built by the government were Castlerea, midlands, and the extension to Wheatfield.
A new prison is to be built in Cork, but it's capacity will be less than the current number held in overcrowded conditions in the existing prison.

Why is it that so many posters see prison, which has generally failed as a solution in every place and every era it was tried, as the ultimate and best solution to all crime?

FreudianSlippers

pitythefool wrote: »

This is an experimental thread

Alot of people wouldnt mind seeing rapists neutered

I wouldnt mind seeing gangland killers of innocents locked into the worst conditions possible with very little human rights

Just remember this is experimental and can progress with new cases that are reported in the paper

Apologies, I was posting from my phone and actually thought this was in the Legal Discussion forum. As it isn't I will bow out, but a general point I would raise is that there is no broad solution to sentencing and punishment in general. The flogging brigade would want to be very convinced that the justice system was flawless before suggesting such harsh punishment. I for one wouldn't want to be falsely accused and convicted of rape or murder where the punishment was death. Unfortunately, this happens.

Not would I want a hand chopped off for stealing. Where do you draw the line?

sparkling sea

realies wrote: »

If the jury finds the accused guilty, the judge has to decide what the sentence should be. It can never be up to members of the public high strung on emotions to sentence anyone.

Some people might suggest that sentencing practice and the severity of a sentencing should be a direct reflection of the pain/damage the crime has inflicted on society as a whole.

Unlike other countries Ireland doesn't have definitive sentencing guidelines or a sentencing council. Its a well known that sentencing practices are extremely varied here, there isn't consistency in sentencing of crimes; judges personal oponions do seem to be reflected in the sentencing they impose; judges moods also appear to play a part too.

Prisons are meant to be a place of last resort in a civilised society.

The countries with the lowest crime and recidivism rates are countries that use alternatives to prison except when violence against a person is involved; then the sanction is very severe.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

"Out on good behaviour" means they served their sentence, they cant be sent back as the good behaviour (as you call it) is remission.
Last prisons to be built by the government were Castlerea, midlands, and the extension to Wheatfield.
A new prison is to be built in Cork, but it's capacity will be less than the current number held in overcrowded conditions in the existing prison.

Why is it that so many posters see prison, which has generally failed as a solution in every place and every era it was tried, as the ultimate and best solution to all crime?

Thats why im looking for alternatives

pitythefool

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Apologies, I was posting from my phone and actually thought this was in the Legal Discussion forum. As it isn't I will bow out, but a general point I would raise is that there is no broad solution to sentencing and punishment in general. The flogging brigade would want to be very convinced that the justice system was flawless before suggesting such harsh punishment. I for one wouldn't want to be falsely accused and convicted of rape or murder where the punishment was death. Unfortunately, this happens.

Not would I want a hand chopped off for stealing. Where do you draw the line?

I was hoping the death penalty and torture would be kept out to e fair

pitythefool

sparkling sea wrote: »

Unlike other countries Ireland doesn't have definitive sentencing guidelines or a sentencing council. Its a well knownthat sentencing practices are extremely varied here, there isn't consistency in sentencing of crimes.

This is very true and can even be seen in my case that i mentioned above.

In that case I wouldnt have minded so much if i hadnt found out that they attacked further people on release.

A mandatory sociology course to help these guys understand the consequences of their actions would have put my mind slighlt at ease also

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

This is very true and can even be seen in my case that i mentioned above.

In that case I wouldnt have minded so much if i hadnt found out that they attacked further people on release.

A mandatory sociology course to help these guys understand the consequences of their actions would have put my mind slighlt at ease also

Perhaps it's our legislators who need to study Sociology, and indeed Criminology!

If you are interested in the Irish Penal System you would do worse that read some of Prof. Ian O'Donnells work on Recidivism in Ireland, and "Where Prisoners Go" which is his and others study on the demographic dispersal of released prisoners. Another one to look for is Dr. Cormac Behans work, he is now lecturing in Criminology at sheffield Univerity, he previously worked within the Prison Education Service here.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Perhaps it's our legislators who need to study Sociology, and indeed Criminology!

If you are interested in the Irish Penal System you would do worse that read some of Prof. Ian O'Donnells work on Recidivism in Ireland, and "Where Prisoners Go" which is his and others study on the demographic dispersal of released prisoners. Another one to look for is Dr. Cormac Behans work, he is now lecturing in Criminology at sheffield Univerity, he previously worked within the Prison Education Service here.

I would have imagined that sociology is studied in all Universities to some level, crimonology should definately be part of any law degree

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

I would have imagined that sociology is studied in all Universities to some level, crimonology should definately be part of any law degree

Sociology is not taught in all Universities at some level, and criminology is a branch of Sociology, though it also invoves Psychology and Psyschiatry.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Sociology is not taught in all Universities at some level, and criminology is a branch of Sociology, though it also invoves Psychology and Psyschiatry.

Not even law degrees?

spank_inferno

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Why is it that so many posters see prison, which has generally failed as a solution in every place and every era it was tried, as the ultimate and best solution to all crime?

I know I would have scorn poured over me by the bleeding hearts, but I don't care if prison is a solution to crime or not.

Crims become crims because they choose to.
The more prison spaces & longer sentences there are means less filth on the streets.

If same people refuse to have a stake in or respect society, I couldn't care less if prisons rehabilitate them or not.

[MOD]Less emotive/provocative language would be nice.[/MOD]

pitythefool

spank_inferno wrote: »

I know I would have scorn poured over me by the bleeding hearts, but I don't care if prison is a solution to crime or not.

Crims become crims because they choose to.
The more prison spaces & longer sentences there are means less filth on the streets.

If same people refuse to have a stake in or respect society, I couldn't care less if prisons rehabilitate them or not.

Rehabilitate is the key word there

What if prisons are not rehabilitating prisoners?

FreudianSlippers

I'm suspending my self-imposed exile from politics because I think this thread is interesting. Perhaps the problem isn't the punishment but the prisons. They do nothing but make criminals better criminals. Plus they're chock full of people and provide no opportunities to rehabilitate offenders. I also do not understand this "right" to a TV. They should get recreation time and have a communal TV which they can watch for set periods.

oscarBravo

spank_inferno wrote: »

I know I would have scorn poured over me by the bleeding hearts, but I don't care if prison is a solution to crime or not.

You seem to be far from alone in that view. The point I've been trying to make in this thread is that if more people cared about whether or not what we're doing is working, we might be doing something that worked.

Speaking for myself: if I had a choice between a system that reduced the level of crime in society, and one that made those bad, naughty, wicked people suffer for their crimes, I'd opt for a safer society.

I guess that makes me a bleeding heart.

Death and Taxes

spank_inferno wrote: »

I know I would have scorn poured over me by the bleeding hearts, but I don't care if prison is a solution to crime or not.

Crims become crims because they choose to.
The more prison spaces & longer sentences there are means less filth on the streets.

If same people refuse to have a stake in or respect society, I couldn't care less if prisons rehabilitate them or not.

Then can you explain why the countries with the highest incarceration rates (USA,UK etc) also have the highest crime rates....would appear that prison does not in fact deter crime and does not make the streets any safer.

By the way referring to people as Filth is highly offensive in my opinion.

pitythefool

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm suspending my self-imposed exile from politics because I think this thread is interesting. Perhaps the problem isn't the punishment but the prisons. They do nothing but make criminals better criminals. Plus they're chock full of people and provide no opportunities to rehabilitate offenders. I also do not understand this "right" to a TV. They should get recreation time and have a communal TV which they can watch for set periods.

You had a freudian slip there, why would we want better criminals

As far as TV goes, a communal TV is a good idea, it could be a democracy set on what is shown with a majority rule on what to watch

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Then can you explain why the countries with the highest incarceration rates (USA,UK etc) also have the highest crime rates....would appear that prison does not in fact deter crime and does not make the streets any safer.

By the way referring to people as Filth is highly offensive in my opinion.

I got a warning for that earlier, so best to keep insults off this thread

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Then can you explain why the countries with the highest incarceration rates (USA,UK etc) also have the highest crime rates....would appear that prison does not in fact deter crime and does not make the streets any safer.

By the way referring to people as Filth is highly offensive in my opinion.

http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/wo...ory=wb_poprate

UK seems to be fairly down the list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rceration_rate

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

I got a warning for that earlier, so best to keep insults off this thread

Who did I insult?

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/wo...ory=wb_poprate

UK seems to be fairly down the list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rceration_rate

UK rates are over 100% higher than Norway/Sweden/Finland
and 50% higher than ours.
Now check the crime rates against the countries.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

UK rates are over 100% higher than Norway/Sweden/Finland
and 50% higher than ours.
Now check the crime rates against the countries.

I thought thats what is did?, have you perhaps written that wrong?

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

I thought thats what is did?, have you perhaps written that wrong?

You have provided two links to incarceration rates, but no link to crime rates.
I am suggesting that you compare incarceration rates with crime rates in certain countries as I believe it will show that higher incarceration rates does not equate to a lower crime rate as many would claim.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

You have provided two links to incarceration rates, but no link to crime rates.
I am suggesting that you compare incarceration rates with crime rates in certain countries as I believe it will show that higher incarceration rates does not equate to a lower crime rate as many would claim.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1130976/pg1

I see that the UK are in the top ten reported crime list but vey low down on incarceration, this could have two variables though

Other countries may not report crime

The UK are slow to incarcerate people

Are their any better scales out there to measure this

spank_inferno

oscarBravo wrote: »

Speaking for myself: if I had a choice between a system that reduced the level of crime in society, and one that made those bad, naughty, wicked people suffer for their crimes, I'd opt for a safer society.

Why the choice?

We could always do both Oscar.
It is possible to reduce crime and punish those who break crime.

Death and Taxes

spank_inferno wrote: »

Why the choice?

We could always do both Oscar.
It is possible to reduce crime and punish those who break crime.

Well can you provide a link to a modern country with high imprisonment rates, which is what Oscar was talking about, and a low crime rate?
The countries that lock up the least amount of citizens tend to have the lower rates of crime.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Who did I insult?

No one i should have quoted your previous quote "filth" where you advised against saying it

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Well can you provide a link to a modern country with high imprisonment rates, which is what Oscar was talking about, and a low crime rate?
The countries that lock up the least amount of citizens tend to have the lower rates of crime.

Are all crime rates reported in these countries and do they have a system as advanced as USA/UK

JustinDee

WileyCoyote wrote: »

The countries that lock up the least amount of citizens tend to have the lower rates of crime.

Or the worst convication rates. This can be due to corruption or an ineffective judiciary.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Well can you provide a link to a modern country with high imprisonment rates, which is what Oscar was talking about, and a low crime rate?
The countries that lock up the least amount of citizens tend to have the lower rates of crime.

Sweden have a high crime rate and a low incarceration rate?

JustinDee

pitythefool wrote: »

Sweden have a high crime rate and a low incarceration rate?

As in Norway, you can be queued to go to jail and wait for two months before entering your sentence. Bit too trusting for my liking.

Death and Taxes

JustinDee wrote: »

Or the worst convication rates. This can be due to corruption or an ineffective judiciary.

I would hardly consider countries like Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland etc to fall into that catagory.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Well can you provide a link to a modern country with high imprisonment rates, which is what Oscar was talking about, and a low crime rate?
The countries that lock up the least amount of citizens tend to have the lower rates of crime.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I would hardly consider countries like Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland etc to fall into that catagory.

According to figures Norway still have a high crime rate with a low convistion rate, which is contradictory to your point

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

According to figures Norway still have a high crime rate with a low convistion rate, which is contradictory to your point

Can you post a link to your figures please.

FreudianSlippers

pitythefool wrote: »

You had a freudian slip there, why would we want better criminals

As far as TV goes, a communal TV is a good idea, it could be a democracy set on what is shown with a majority rule on what to watch

No I mean our current prisons do. So it doesn't matter what the punishment is if the prisons are inherently broken.