New punishments for crimes

Sunnyisland

pity the fool wrote: »

England footballer Andy Carroll was accused of gouging the eye of a Dublin Photographer in the paper today, as well as throwing him to the ground

If guilty, what punishment should he receive

If the photographer is full of BS the what punishment should he get

If the jury finds the accused guilty, the judge has to decide what the sentence should be. It can never be up to members of the public high strung on emotions to sentence anyone.

pitythefool

this is experimental, alternative sentences

Sunnyisland

pitythefool wrote: »

this is experimental, alternative sentences

Andy caroll english footballer if found guilty should be sentenced to play for Ireland for the next four years.:)

pitythefool

Funny as that might be, i dont think we want him! Useless

spank_inferno

Does anyone know when the Government last built a prison?

It seems the crims are always back on the streets because there is no capacity to put them away.

pitythefool

spank_inferno wrote: »

Does anyone know when the Government last built a prison?

It seems the crims are always back on the streets because there is no capacity to put them away.

Very true, im sure Wiley can fill us in on this one

I was once mugged by 4 guys on my was into town who were out for good behaviour, my friend had a brain heomrage in the same incident, they were sentenced to a year for me even though i was fine and 6 months suspended for assaulting my mate, to run concurrentlty,

Not just with their sentence for assaulting us but with the sentence they were to be sent back to jail for

And before anyone says thats up to the judge, I know it is what im saying is the judge is wrong

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

Very true, im sure Wiley can fill us in on this one

I was once mugged by 4 guys on my was into town who were out for good behaviour, my friend had a brain heomrage in the same incident, they were sentenced to a year for me even though i was fine and 6 months suspended for assaulting my mate, to run concurrentlty,

Not just with their sentence for assaulting us but with the sentence they were to be sent back to jail for

And before anyone says thats up to the judge, I know it is what im saying is the judge is wrong

"Out on good behaviour" means they served their sentence, they cant be sent back as the good behaviour (as you call it) is remission.
Last prisons to be built by the government were Castlerea, midlands, and the extension to Wheatfield.
A new prison is to be built in Cork, but it's capacity will be less than the current number held in overcrowded conditions in the existing prison.

Why is it that so many posters see prison, which has generally failed as a solution in every place and every era it was tried, as the ultimate and best solution to all crime?

FreudianSlippers

pitythefool wrote: »

This is an experimental thread

Alot of people wouldnt mind seeing rapists neutered

I wouldnt mind seeing gangland killers of innocents locked into the worst conditions possible with very little human rights

Just remember this is experimental and can progress with new cases that are reported in the paper

Apologies, I was posting from my phone and actually thought this was in the Legal Discussion forum. As it isn't I will bow out, but a general point I would raise is that there is no broad solution to sentencing and punishment in general. The flogging brigade would want to be very convinced that the justice system was flawless before suggesting such harsh punishment. I for one wouldn't want to be falsely accused and convicted of rape or murder where the punishment was death. Unfortunately, this happens.

Not would I want a hand chopped off for stealing. Where do you draw the line?

sparkling sea

realies wrote: »

If the jury finds the accused guilty, the judge has to decide what the sentence should be. It can never be up to members of the public high strung on emotions to sentence anyone.

Some people might suggest that sentencing practice and the severity of a sentencing should be a direct reflection of the pain/damage the crime has inflicted on society as a whole.

Unlike other countries Ireland doesn't have definitive sentencing guidelines or a sentencing council. Its a well known that sentencing practices are extremely varied here, there isn't consistency in sentencing of crimes; judges personal oponions do seem to be reflected in the sentencing they impose; judges moods also appear to play a part too.

Prisons are meant to be a place of last resort in a civilised society.

The countries with the lowest crime and recidivism rates are countries that use alternatives to prison except when violence against a person is involved; then the sanction is very severe.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

"Out on good behaviour" means they served their sentence, they cant be sent back as the good behaviour (as you call it) is remission.
Last prisons to be built by the government were Castlerea, midlands, and the extension to Wheatfield.
A new prison is to be built in Cork, but it's capacity will be less than the current number held in overcrowded conditions in the existing prison.

Why is it that so many posters see prison, which has generally failed as a solution in every place and every era it was tried, as the ultimate and best solution to all crime?

Thats why im looking for alternatives

pitythefool

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

Apologies, I was posting from my phone and actually thought this was in the Legal Discussion forum. As it isn't I will bow out, but a general point I would raise is that there is no broad solution to sentencing and punishment in general. The flogging brigade would want to be very convinced that the justice system was flawless before suggesting such harsh punishment. I for one wouldn't want to be falsely accused and convicted of rape or murder where the punishment was death. Unfortunately, this happens.

Not would I want a hand chopped off for stealing. Where do you draw the line?

I was hoping the death penalty and torture would be kept out to e fair

pitythefool

sparkling sea wrote: »

Unlike other countries Ireland doesn't have definitive sentencing guidelines or a sentencing council. Its a well knownthat sentencing practices are extremely varied here, there isn't consistency in sentencing of crimes.

This is very true and can even be seen in my case that i mentioned above.

In that case I wouldnt have minded so much if i hadnt found out that they attacked further people on release.

A mandatory sociology course to help these guys understand the consequences of their actions would have put my mind slighlt at ease also

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

This is very true and can even be seen in my case that i mentioned above.

In that case I wouldnt have minded so much if i hadnt found out that they attacked further people on release.

A mandatory sociology course to help these guys understand the consequences of their actions would have put my mind slighlt at ease also

Perhaps it's our legislators who need to study Sociology, and indeed Criminology!

If you are interested in the Irish Penal System you would do worse that read some of Prof. Ian O'Donnells work on Recidivism in Ireland, and "Where Prisoners Go" which is his and others study on the demographic dispersal of released prisoners. Another one to look for is Dr. Cormac Behans work, he is now lecturing in Criminology at sheffield Univerity, he previously worked within the Prison Education Service here.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Perhaps it's our legislators who need to study Sociology, and indeed Criminology!

If you are interested in the Irish Penal System you would do worse that read some of Prof. Ian O'Donnells work on Recidivism in Ireland, and "Where Prisoners Go" which is his and others study on the demographic dispersal of released prisoners. Another one to look for is Dr. Cormac Behans work, he is now lecturing in Criminology at sheffield Univerity, he previously worked within the Prison Education Service here.

I would have imagined that sociology is studied in all Universities to some level, crimonology should definately be part of any law degree

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

I would have imagined that sociology is studied in all Universities to some level, crimonology should definately be part of any law degree

Sociology is not taught in all Universities at some level, and criminology is a branch of Sociology, though it also invoves Psychology and Psyschiatry.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Sociology is not taught in all Universities at some level, and criminology is a branch of Sociology, though it also invoves Psychology and Psyschiatry.

Not even law degrees?

spank_inferno

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Why is it that so many posters see prison, which has generally failed as a solution in every place and every era it was tried, as the ultimate and best solution to all crime?

I know I would have scorn poured over me by the bleeding hearts, but I don't care if prison is a solution to crime or not.

Crims become crims because they choose to.
The more prison spaces & longer sentences there are means less filth on the streets.

If same people refuse to have a stake in or respect society, I couldn't care less if prisons rehabilitate them or not.

[MOD]Less emotive/provocative language would be nice.[/MOD]

pitythefool

spank_inferno wrote: »

I know I would have scorn poured over me by the bleeding hearts, but I don't care if prison is a solution to crime or not.

Crims become crims because they choose to.
The more prison spaces & longer sentences there are means less filth on the streets.

If same people refuse to have a stake in or respect society, I couldn't care less if prisons rehabilitate them or not.

Rehabilitate is the key word there

What if prisons are not rehabilitating prisoners?

FreudianSlippers

I'm suspending my self-imposed exile from politics because I think this thread is interesting. Perhaps the problem isn't the punishment but the prisons. They do nothing but make criminals better criminals. Plus they're chock full of people and provide no opportunities to rehabilitate offenders. I also do not understand this "right" to a TV. They should get recreation time and have a communal TV which they can watch for set periods.

oscarBravo

spank_inferno wrote: »

I know I would have scorn poured over me by the bleeding hearts, but I don't care if prison is a solution to crime or not.

You seem to be far from alone in that view. The point I've been trying to make in this thread is that if more people cared about whether or not what we're doing is working, we might be doing something that worked.

Speaking for myself: if I had a choice between a system that reduced the level of crime in society, and one that made those bad, naughty, wicked people suffer for their crimes, I'd opt for a safer society.

I guess that makes me a bleeding heart.

Death and Taxes

spank_inferno wrote: »

I know I would have scorn poured over me by the bleeding hearts, but I don't care if prison is a solution to crime or not.

Crims become crims because they choose to.
The more prison spaces & longer sentences there are means less filth on the streets.

If same people refuse to have a stake in or respect society, I couldn't care less if prisons rehabilitate them or not.

Then can you explain why the countries with the highest incarceration rates (USA,UK etc) also have the highest crime rates....would appear that prison does not in fact deter crime and does not make the streets any safer.

By the way referring to people as Filth is highly offensive in my opinion.

pitythefool

FreudianSlippers wrote: »

I'm suspending my self-imposed exile from politics because I think this thread is interesting. Perhaps the problem isn't the punishment but the prisons. They do nothing but make criminals better criminals. Plus they're chock full of people and provide no opportunities to rehabilitate offenders. I also do not understand this "right" to a TV. They should get recreation time and have a communal TV which they can watch for set periods.

You had a freudian slip there, why would we want better criminals

As far as TV goes, a communal TV is a good idea, it could be a democracy set on what is shown with a majority rule on what to watch

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Then can you explain why the countries with the highest incarceration rates (USA,UK etc) also have the highest crime rates....would appear that prison does not in fact deter crime and does not make the streets any safer.

By the way referring to people as Filth is highly offensive in my opinion.

I got a warning for that earlier, so best to keep insults off this thread

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Then can you explain why the countries with the highest incarceration rates (USA,UK etc) also have the highest crime rates....would appear that prison does not in fact deter crime and does not make the streets any safer.

By the way referring to people as Filth is highly offensive in my opinion.

http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/wo...ory=wb_poprate

UK seems to be fairly down the list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rceration_rate

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

I got a warning for that earlier, so best to keep insults off this thread

Who did I insult?

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

http://www.prisonstudies.org/info/wo...ory=wb_poprate

UK seems to be fairly down the list

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...rceration_rate

UK rates are over 100% higher than Norway/Sweden/Finland
and 50% higher than ours.
Now check the crime rates against the countries.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

UK rates are over 100% higher than Norway/Sweden/Finland
and 50% higher than ours.
Now check the crime rates against the countries.

I thought thats what is did?, have you perhaps written that wrong?

Death and Taxes

pitythefool wrote: »

I thought thats what is did?, have you perhaps written that wrong?

You have provided two links to incarceration rates, but no link to crime rates.
I am suggesting that you compare incarceration rates with crime rates in certain countries as I believe it will show that higher incarceration rates does not equate to a lower crime rate as many would claim.

pitythefool

WileyCoyote wrote: »

You have provided two links to incarceration rates, but no link to crime rates.
I am suggesting that you compare incarceration rates with crime rates in certain countries as I believe it will show that higher incarceration rates does not equate to a lower crime rate as many would claim.

http://www.godlikeproductions.com/forum1/message1130976/pg1

I see that the UK are in the top ten reported crime list but vey low down on incarceration, this could have two variables though

Other countries may not report crime

The UK are slow to incarcerate people

Are their any better scales out there to measure this

spank_inferno

oscarBravo wrote: »

Speaking for myself: if I had a choice between a system that reduced the level of crime in society, and one that made those bad, naughty, wicked people suffer for their crimes, I'd opt for a safer society.

Why the choice?

We could always do both Oscar.
It is possible to reduce crime and punish those who break crime.