Paralysed woman seeks right to die in landmark case

davet82

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/paralysed-woman-seeks-right-to-die-in-landmark-case-3315954.html

A TERMINALLY ill woman with multiple sclerosis who wants to end her life has begun a landmark assisted-suicide case in the High Court.

Former UCD lecturer Marie Fleming (59), who is completely paralysed and confined to a wheelchair, will give evidence this afternoon.

Ms Fleming, who is unable to move any of her limbs and whose speech and swallowing are significantly affected by her illness, is seeking unprecedented orders permitting her be helped lawfully take her own life at a time of her own choosing.

I don't have a problem with this and I'm wondering why anybody would?

Its your life and if you want to go out with dignity on your on terms why should anybody else prolong your suffering or dicatate to you when you should check out? I think the law should be changed so that these people can be assisted.

I'm interested in anybodys views on why they would be against euthanasia as I can't really think of any.

My name is URL

I don't think anyone would have an issue with it in cases like this tbh. The courts are just afraid to set a precedent that could one day be abused.

smash

I hope she wins her case. It's no life for her as is.

minidazzler

There are a lot of religious arguments against it which I consider inherently invalid because the person choosing to die obviously doesn't follow a religion that would not allow it.

So, really, valid arguments don't exist. Choosing to end your own life shouldn't be a crime, having someone help you, as long as it's all registered as to who will help, should be perfectly OK.

Reminds me of this song which is a song by a guy who "killed" his own mother.

Rodin

I think this case deserves much much more media coverage. And personally speaking, I think it is more important than the abortion issue which has saturated the media for the past month

Big C

delighted to see this being taken to court, but I don't think we will see any change

smash

minidazzler wrote: »

Choosing to end your own life shouldn't be a crime, having someone help you, as long as it's all registered as to who will help, should be perfectly OK.

It's not... it's the 2nd part of the sentence that's the problem. It's considered assisted murder.

seamus

There are no valid reasons to deny someone the right to die (and to be assisted in that right), however there are very valid concerns about opening this door, as there's quite the potential for it to be abused and for unscrupulous individuals to "legally" murder a dependent for whatever reason.

That said, safeguards can be built in such that it's practically impossible to play the system, especially for cases like this where the person is fully of sound mind and has a valid reason to ask to end their life.

minidazzler

Rodin wrote: »

I think this case deserves much much more media coverage. And personally speaking, I think it is more important than the abortion issue which has saturated the media for the past month

TBH, it's not more important that the abortion issue.

If someone really wants to die even with MS they can find someone to help them, I think if one of my friends or whoever was in that situation and wanted out of the constant pain I'd probably help them out.

I couldn't do that for someone to have an abortion. It's too risky. That needs to be medically administered.

Rodin

smash wrote: »

It's not... it's the 2nd part of the sentence that's the problem. It's considered assisted murder.

Actually it's considered assisted suicide, not assisted murder.

Death and Taxes

smash wrote: »

It's not... it's the 2nd part of the sentence that's the problem. It's considered assisted murder.

no its not, its considered a crime of assisting suicide. From the atricle quoted:it is an offence under the Criminal Law Suicide Act 1993 to be an accomplice to such an act and a jail sentence of up to 14 years may be imposed for that offence.

Hope she wins, but doubt she will.

Rodin

minidazzler wrote: »

TBH, it's not more important that the abortion issue.

If someone really wants to die even with MS they can find someone to help them, I think if one of my friends or whoever was in that situation and wanted out of the constant pain I'd probably help them out.

I couldn't do that for someone to have an abortion. It's too risky. That needs to be medically administered.

Your friend would be before the courts for killing you.

seamus

smash wrote: »

It's not... it's the 2nd part of the sentence that's the problem. It's considered assisted murder.

Well, yes and no. The woman in this case would be unable to carry it out autonomously, so cannot do it without assistance.
Effectively, she is being denied the right to choose to end her life because to do so would have her partner jailed.

I think the best that we can hope for in this case is a system whereby someone can apply to the courts to go to Switzerland as a designated carer/helper and be granted immunity from prosecution on their return.

There's no way this case will lead to legalised assisted suicide in this country.

smash

Rodin wrote: »

Actually it's considered assisted suicide, not assisted murder.

I thought I heard on the radio that the charge could be changed to murder as it's premeditated and suicide isn't illegal. Maybe I misheard it.

Rodin

smash wrote: »

I thought I heard on the radio that the charge could be changed to murder as it's premeditated and suicide isn't illegal. Maybe I misheard it.

So who is doing the assisting? The paralysed women can hardly assist in her own murder.

And one can't murder oneself.

smash

Rodin wrote: »

So who is doing the assisting?

Her partner

Big C

She is giving her evidence today, pity I did not know before I would have been there to support her

minidazzler

Rodin wrote: »

Your friend would be before the courts for killing you.

No, my friend would be dead, I'd be before the courts if it was caught as an assisted suicide.

Obviously I'd only do it if asked and I believed it's what they really wanted. But, I know at least 2 of my friends would do the same for me, we've had the discussion and they know my wishes.

I hope this lady wins her case. I really do, she deserves to go out in the manner of her choosing.

Rodin

smash wrote: »

Her partner

The partner is assisting the woman to murder herself?

Shryke

There was a very high profile case in England not long back that had to do with this. Did he have MS or locked in syndrome or some other awful condition? It was terrible that he didn't win the right to die in the end. The UK is a more progressive place than Ireland and we outright copycat the UK on a lot of things. Given those 2 things I can't see this going well.
I believe the man in question passed away not long after losing his right to die. Pneumonia or some such might have been the given reason. It's really upsetting.

There was a case in Ireland, maybe in the last year, another MS sufferer took herself down to the bridge on a local river and dumped herself over it. The country we live in, ffs.

My name is URL

Rodin wrote: »

So who is doing the assisting? The paralysed women can hardly assist in her own murder.

And one can't murder oneself.

Not sure what the story is here, but in the UK assisting in the 'suicide' of another person leaves you open to charges of murder or manslaughter.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/press_releases/144_09/

I also want to make it perfectly clear that this policy does not, in any way, permit euthanasia. The taking of life by another person is murder or manslaughter - which are among the most serious criminal offences.

joydivision

Ah itll lead to annyone thats a burden on their family feeling they should do it . Ive me hands full raising 3 maniacs safe in the knowledge that they will one day have to wipe my ass . No way are they using this as a pressure on me to kill myself .
Where does it stop. Where do you draw the line . Instead of care homes we d be getting put in the grave .
Anybody thinks this is a rediculous notion . How many elderly people dont want to be in care homes but get nudged in by the family .?

patwicklow

My thoughts and prayers for Tom and Marie as i know them very well and you could not meet a nicer couple

woodchuck

minidazzler wrote: »

If someone really wants to die even with MS they can find someone to help them, I think if one of my friends or whoever was in that situation and wanted out of the constant pain I'd probably help them out.

But wouldn't it be better if after you helped them you don't face up to 14 years in jail?

minidazzler

Rodin wrote: »

The partner is assisting the woman to murder herself?

Stop using the word murder, it's making you look stupid.

She wishes for assistance in a dignified end. Simple as.

movingsucks

joydivision wrote: »

Ah itll lead to annyone thats a burden on their family feeling they should do it . Ive me hands full raising 3 maniacs safe in the knowledge that they will one day have to wipe my ass . No way are they using this as a pressure on me to kill myself .
Where does it stop. Where do you draw the line . Instead of care homes we d be getting put in the grave .
Anybody thinks this is a rediculous notion . How many elderly people dont want to be in care homes but get nudged in by the family .?

Check out the stuff about The Liverpool Care Pathway in the UK at the moment

smash

Rodin wrote: »

The partner is assisting the woman to murder herself?

What do you think suicide is? It is premeditated after all.

Rodin

minidazzler wrote: »

Stop using the word murder, it's making you look stupid.

She wishes for assistance in a dignified end. Simple as.

Have a little read back. I was replying to a poster who initially used the word.

I agree that she wants a dignified end, and should have it with no recrimination.

Now who looks stupid?

minidazzler

woodchuck wrote: »

But wouldn't it be better if after you helped them you don't face up to 14 years in jail?

Oh yeah, I know. That's why I'm happy this lady is fighting this case.

Rodin

smash wrote: »

What do you think suicide is? It is premeditated after all.

Murder is the unlawful killing of ANOTHER human! Yes it may be premediated, as may suicide be. But BY DEFINITION, one can't murder oneself. Dear lord!

dark crystal

joydivision wrote: »

Ah itll lead to annyone thats a burden on their family feeling they should do it . Ive me hands full raising 3 maniacs safe in the knowledge that they will one day have to wipe my ass . No way are they using this as a pressure on me to kill myself .
Where does it stop. Where do you draw the line . Instead of care homes we d be getting put in the grave .
Anybody thinks this is a rediculous notion . How many elderly people dont want to be in care homes but get nudged in by the family .?

Absolute rubbish.

If your children wanted to kill you instead of look after you, you haven't raised them right.

I'd like to think if I had no quality of life, was in constant pain and wanted to die with dignity, my loved ones would love and respect me enough to help me on my way if I asked them to.

Death and Taxes

smash wrote: »

What do you think suicide is? It is premeditated after all.

Suicide is suicide and assisting suicide is not in any legal way considered murder.
Use of the word murder is just an attempt to raise emotions and derail the thread in my opinion.

My name is URL

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Suicide is suicide and assisting suicide is not in any legal way considered murder.
Use of the word murder is just an attempt to raise emotions and derail the thread in my opinion.

Balderdash!

pitythefool

joydivision wrote: »

Ah itll lead to annyone thats a burden on their family feeling they should do it . Ive me hands full raising 3 maniacs safe in the knowledge that they will one day have to wipe my ass . No way are they using this as a pressure on me to kill myself .
Where does it stop. Where do you draw the line . Instead of care homes we d be getting put in the grave .
Anybody thinks this is a rediculous notion . How many elderly people dont want to be in care homes but get nudged in by the family .?

We need to raise our care facilitiers to Scandanavain levels then

msg11

Physically this women is broken and is suffering pain mentally, it is her wish to die. So let her.

smash

Rodin wrote: »

Murder is the unlawful killing of ANOTHER human! Yes it may be premediated, as may suicide be. But BY DEFINITION, one can't murder oneself. Dear lord!

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Suicide is suicide and assisting suicide is not in any legal way considered murder.
Use of the word murder is just an attempt to raise emotions and derail the thread in my opinion.

Did either of you read this post? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82068687&postcount=21

joydivision

Could she not just drive the wheelchair off something ?

Death and Taxes

smash wrote: »

Did either of you read this post? http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82068687&postcount=21

Why would we, the UK is not our juristiction, so why would be concerned with their definitions. The applicable law in this state is the Criminal Law Suicide Act 1993 .

.

msg11

joydivision wrote: »

Could she not just drive the wheelchair off something ?

The problem is how would she get to this place? She can't do anything herself, if she commits suicide the person with her is going to get done for assisted suicide.

joydivision

msg11 wrote: »

Physically this women is broken and is suffering pain mentally, it is her wish to die. So let her.

but where do you draw the line ?
An abusive patner leaning on their spouse to guilt the parents into the aul assisted suicide ?

smash

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Why would we, the UK is not our juristiction, so why would be concerned with their definitions. The applicable law in this state is the Criminal Law Suicide Act 1993 .

.

Euthanasia is classified as murder. There's a thin line between euthanasia and assisted suicide in cases like this where the woman can't actually do anything herself.

ResearchWill

The case is been heard by 3 judges of the High Court, Kearns P. Carney J. and Hogan J.

Hogan is one of the foremost experts on Constitutional law and a man of great integrity and decency. Kearns got the decision in McCrystal so wrong not really sure about Carney.

I have not seen or heard if a 3 man HC in a long long time, but am delighted Hogan is on the court.

ElleEm

I really hope this woman wins her case. She should have the right to die if she wants to.
I have MS, and I am the one living with it- I should be the one to decide when I die (if the time comes for me to want to end things).

seamus

joydivision wrote: »

but where do you draw the line ?
An abusive patner leaning on their spouse to guilt the parents into the aul assisted suicide ?

Slippery slope fallacy.

You draw the line at terminal incurable illness and you require a formal application process where at least two independent qualified people decide whether or not your application is justifiable.

Lone Stone

its a hard subject to swallow when you actually know some one in the situation.

davet82

joydivision wrote: »

Could she not just drive the wheelchair off something ?

that sounds like a really dignified way to go

ffs

WoollyRedHat

My name is URL wrote: »

I don't think anyone would have an issue with it in cases like this tbh. The courts are just afraid to set a precedent that could one day be abused.

Probably because the government is too spineless to take action on such cases and allow a system of regulation...
Same in U.K. I wish there was a way for the legislators to be given a chance to suffer what thhese people who have no quality of life left and want their suffering to end, for some time, so that then we could see how these moral crusaders would react. Oh, I am sure they sympathise,sure.

CruelCoin

joydivision wrote: »

Could she not just drive the wheelchair off something ?

I have this image of Fr. Jack driving off the cliff....

Akrasia

This is the kind of issue that makes me hate religion so much.

If you strip out religious belief, there are really no good reasons not to allow terminally ill people die in a dignified way of their choosing.

None, None at all

The best that the anti euthanasia side can come up with (when they are trying to disguise their underlying religious motivation) is that allowing euthanasia in any circumstance is the beginning of a 'slippery slope' and if we allow assisted suicide, it will result in vulnerable people being killed against their will on a mass scale.

The slippery slope is a fallacy. It presumes that no law can be drafted that has the proper balance of protection of the rights of the terminally ill and the freedom to die with dignity.

Of course, any law to make provision for assisted suicide or euthanasia should be drafted very carefully to ensure that it can not be abused. Proper safeguards are not that difficult to conceive.

One of the most important benefits of legislating to allow for assisted suicide in tragic circumstances is that it takes away the fear from people who are already dealing with their own mortality.

People have to deal with the reality of their own mortality, we can not protect them from that, but it seems unnecessarily cruel to not allow them the comfort of knowing that when the time comes, they will be able to die in a dignified way surrounded by their loved ones and without having to endure a long drawn out, painful death.

However, because of a religious doctrine that 'only god has the right to decide who lives or dies*' we are condemning people who are already dealing with their own death, to further needless physical and emotional suffering

(*which in itself is a utterly silly idea, life or death decisions are made every single day, often by accountants doing up cost benefit analysis on whether or not they can make a profit by installing airbags on the base model of a small family car)

saiint

no she should not be aloud
its a 'sin'

Akrasia

saiint wrote: »

no she should not be aloud
its a 'sin'

Lets try using some of those religious get out of hell free loopholes

Give them the last rites to absolve them of their sin just before they die
Sorted. Instant heaven,