Property tax - Valuations/Letters - Greystones/Delgany etc

Cerco

mango salsa wrote: »

Thats what they said ages ago but now it looks like you only get till May to file payment

My understanding is that you file your valuation in May and make payment in July. Obviously if you pay beforehand then they will not complain. I may be wrong of course.

conlof

Sorry, filled out the form and payment goes later

vinpaul

Quackhart wrote: »

Vinpaul any chance you did a separate table that included Charlesland as well?

Have just completed table for Charlesland. Apologies for any errors if found. (p.s. One sale No 4 Charlesland Court seems to have a strange price on it €10,000, sold in 2011)

dv8

Got Letter today €202 for 2013 and €405 for 2014/15/16, I live in a 2 bed Tce in the Grove, the property remains the same as I bought it new ie: ( no attic conversion, landscape garden etc etc ), just wondering what peoples thoughts are on this particularly those in the same position, is it accurate ? Thanks...

Annasopra

dv8 wrote: »

Got Letter today €202 for 2013 and €405 for 2014/15/16, I live in a 2 bed Tce in the Grove, the property remains the same as I bought it new ie: ( no attic conversion, landscape garden etc etc ), just wondering what peoples thoughts are on this particularly those in the same position, is it accurate ? Thanks...

Did you have a look at the daft valuation guide

www.daft.ie/property-tax/

dv8

Thanks, I just did and by there estimation I got the following;
Terraced House
€186,381Valuation band
€150,000 to €200,000Estimated property tax 2013:
€157.50Estimated property tax 2014:
€315

tp25

dv8 wrote: »

Thanks, I just did and by there estimation I got the following;
Terraced House
€186,381Valuation band
€150,000 to €200,000Estimated property tax 2013:
€157.50Estimated property tax 2014:
€315

I'm not sure if you noticed VINPAUL posted a spreadsheet with the Charlesland sales 2010 - 2013.

looking at VINPAUL's spreadsheet you could do as follows:

Select: Charlesland Grove, delete apartments sold, delete propery sold in 2010 (06-Mar-10) due to time lapse, you are left with:

24-Apr-12 31 2 bed Tce €120,000 €120,000 (average price)
18-Sep-12 60 3 bed Tce €168,000 €144,000 (average price)
25-Jan-13 181 2 bed Tce €210,000 €166,000 (average price)

So, now it is up to you if you try to make a case that your property is worth EUR120k or EUR144k or EUR166k (looking at average prices)

First two (EUR120k and EUR144k would result in a lower band), third one EUR166k would bring you to a higher band.

If I'm you then would try to make it EUR120k as value (based on the price from 24-Apr-12 and if Revenue object that, then make a case that it's EUR144k (based on average price for sale of two properties (24-Apr-12 and 18-Sept-12)).

For EUR120,000 & EUR144,000: it's EUR225 / year
http://www.myhome.ie/calculators/propertytax

For EUR166,000 it is EUR315 / year

I would certainly try to send your own valuation as low as possible and if they object, then go a little bit higher...

The Bishop Basher

Looks like we've been over valued as well.

We built the house 4 years ago and had a valuation done then for tax purposes. Obviously prices have dropped since then but does anyone have a ball park percentage figure for house price falls in Greystones ?

I'm thinking I can apply that to the old figure to get a reasonable estimate.

loyatemu

have you tried the Daft calculator Swanner? How does it compare to the revenue's effort?

dv8

Thanks TP25, yeah I think your right self assess to the more accurate figure of 150,000-200,000..

The Bishop Basher

loyatemu wrote: »

have you tried the Daft calculator Swanner? How does it compare to the revenue's effort?

It depends how loosely I apply the term "bungalow"

For a detached they both match. It's a dormer bungalow though and was stated as such on the original planning. That would put us a band lower.

If I was to apply a 20% fall in value since the last valuation in 2008, we'd be well within that lower band.

I don't know what justification revenue will look for though.

tp25

Swanner wrote: »

It depends how loosely I apply the term "bungalow"

For a detached they both match. It's a dormer bungalow though and was stated as such on the original planning. That would put us a band lower.

If I was to apply a 20% fall in value since the last valuation in 2008, we'd be well within that lower band.

I don't know what justification revenue will look for though.

Perhaps try to demonstrate that you tried to sell for EURxxx,xxx and it didn't sell, therefore the market value is lower than that...

tp25

don't affaraid to oppose the Revenue valuations, property market didn't hit the bottom. Beggining of next year we may start to feel the consequences.

Remember that what you assess now, will remain until 2016. So the prices would fall more by that time... your tax would be as you asses it this time.

loyatemu

tp25 wrote: »

don't affaraid to oppose the Revenue valuations, property market didn't hit the bottom. Beggining of next year we may start to feel the consequences.

Remember that what you assess now, will remain until 2016. So the prices would fall more by that time... your tax would be as you asses it this time.

whether you think the market will continue to drop is not relevant - you're supposed to honestly assess the current value of your house.

tp25

loyatemu wrote: »

whether you think the market will continue to drop is not relevant - you're supposed to honestly assess the current value of your house.

I think it is very relevant. Thus I will fairly prove the assessment will be accurate.

loyatemu

tp25 wrote: »

I think it is very relevant.

what you think isn't relevant either:

The Revenue wrote:

The market value of your property on 1 May 2013 will form the basis of the calculation of the tax for 2013, 2014, 2015 and 2016 and will not be affected by any repairs or improvements made to your property, or any general increase in property prices, during this period.

tp25

loyatemu wrote: »

what you think isn't relevant either:

Let's wait, time will tell. Hopefully people woudn't be left with overstated bills for the years until 2016...
This is how it looks like for now:
For the reason the sample letter from revenue site shows only two digit number on the sample and majority of the letters starts with the three digit numbers, 495 or higher - by default.

tp25

.

Quackhart

Greystones CAHWT wrote: »

Hi there, I wonder if a member/organiser of the Charlesland Residents' Association might message me privately, please? Many thanks in advance.

We have a RSA?

Annasopra

Quackhart wrote: »

We have a RSA?

Yes there is a residents committee for each part of charlesland and then a charlesland overall residents committee

Run DMC

Using VinPaul's previous spreadsheet on sale prices in Charlesland I have calculated the average selling price of 2 and 3 bed Terrace House's since 2011 to be:

2 Bed €176,250
3 Bed €238,714.

I'll be returning my Local Property Tax return based on these figures rather than the estimate from revenue which I believe was too low.

Interested to hear what others are planning or have done.

audreyp

Run DMC wrote: »

Using VinPaul's previous spreadsheet on sale prices in Charlesland I have calculated the average selling price of 2 and 3 bed Terrace House's since 2011 to be:

2 Bed €176,250
3 Bed €238,714.

I'll be returning my Local Property Tax return based on these figures rather than the estimate from revenue which I believe was too low.

Interested to hear what others are planning or have done.

I agree with you, revenue valuations were a bracket too low in our case too. I submitted based on average selling point on property price register. So voluntarily gave revenue more than the asked. I might be entirely mad ;-)

But figure its best to use the average in case I try to sell in the next few years. If I used the undervalued amount I won't have much bargaining room for selling. Though with a tracker I probably won't be selling! :-)

conlof

Our 4 bed duplex was valued at 150000-200000 which I thought was on the low side but now I see one for sale at 220000 (god help us) which makes me think that it is arguable that the assessment is roughly correct.

INUTERO

I think anyone giving a higher valuation of their property to revenue is way off the mark.I live in a 2 bed house and I hate to say that a realistic valuation would be less then €150,000.The market was slightly boyant last year due to the fact that the first time buyer tax was ending.I know for a fact that there are a glut of investor propertys going to come on the market in Charlesland in the next few months were the landlords with multable propertys are insolvent and know of two couples paying their rent to a bank appointed receiver they will have to move as soon as the bank get possesion of the propertys.So when you add all these propertys to the mix supply will exceed demand and this will drive prices down further in my opinion.

2011

Run DMC wrote: »

Using VinPaul's previous spreadsheet on sale prices in Charlesland I have calculated the average selling price of 2 and 3 bed Terrace House's since 2011 to be:

2 Bed €176,250
3 Bed €238,714.

Many of the prices used to calculate those averages are no longer accurate.

Run DMC

2011 wrote: »

Many of the prices used to calculate those averages are no longer accurate.

True but a 3 Bed Terrace House sold for €215,000 in Feb 2013 so that is pretty up to date and would match with the 3 bed figure.A 2 Bed went for €210,000 in Jan 2013 and another for €190,000 in Nov 2012 which again are pretty recent and would be give an average of €200,000 which is in the same bracket as I suggested.I'm not telling people what to pay but you would need to be able to backup your valuation if the Revenue query it. Claiming you just paid their estimate won't satisfy the Revenue official when there are other properties sold for more than what you returned.

2011

Run DMC wrote: »

True but a 3 Bed Terrace House sold for €215,000 in Feb 2013 so that is pretty up to date and would match with the 3 bed figure.A 2 Bed went for €210,000 in Jan 2013 and another for €190,000 in Nov 2012 which again are pretty recent and would be give an average of €200,000 which is in the same bracket as I suggested.I'm not telling people what to pay but you would need to be able to backup your valuation if the Revenue query it.

As they say "A swallow doesn't make a spring".
There are not enough examples to fairly represent a trend.

Claiming you just paid their estimate won't satisfy the Revenue official when there are other properties sold for more than what you returned.

Agreed, but my honest opinion and that of many others the Revenue estimation is accurate. Honesty is what they are looking for.

If your honest opinion is for a higher valuation, go for it, but I think that you will find yourself in the minority.

Over the next year I expect that you will see prices drop further as both the property tax and water charges kick in making my estimation more accurate than yours. Time will tell.

Cerco

2011 wrote: »

As they say "A swallow doesn't make a spring".
There are not enough examples to fairly represent a trend.

Honesty is what they are looking for.

If your honest opinion is for a higher valuation, go for it, but I think that you will find yourself in the minority.

I agree with you on both counts but how do you measure honesty?
If Revenue claim you deliberately underestimated the value how do you prove that you acted honestly?
This would be a David and Goliath situation if they found against you.

I would like to believe that Revenue would not focus on submitted valuations which are one band below/above their valuation but look at more extreme variations

In my opinion this legislation was rushed through parliament without due consideration to it's implementation. The hope is that over time more accurate valuations will be achieved. If your valaution is too high I expect you will be obliged to stick with it but if it is too low then you will have to increase it. I do not believe any future change in property prices will influence the amount of tax as it is the aim of Government to maximize the net return.

2011

Cerco wrote: »

If Revenue claim you deliberately underestimated the value how do you prove that you acted honestly?

I think that if it the fullness of time it is shown that an individual is one band out it will be accepted that they were honest. I doubt that this would apply to those that are €500k or more out

Very few people can really say what any given property is worth, all we know is that it is worth a lot less now than at the peak.

I would like to believe that Revenue would not focus on submitted valuations which are one band below/above their valuation but look at more extreme variations

I think it would be difficult to chase everybody that they feel might be one band less than what they should be. For a start they don't have the resources, secondly they don't know what property is worth themselves.

In my opinion this legislation was rushed through parliament without due consideration to it's implementation. The hope is that over time more accurate valuations will be achieved. If your valaution is too high I expect you will be obliged to stick with it but if it is too low then you will have to increase it. I do not believe any future change in property prices will influence the amount of tax as it is the aim of Government to maximize the net return.

Agree completely.

cuddlycavies

I live in the court and never got a letter! Am I alone in this?