Teacher tells 5-year-old students "Santa isn't real"

floggg

ejmaztec wrote: »

They wouldn't have been accused of being grinches had they not insisted on bringing their non-belief in a deity into a Santy thread. At the moment I'm obsessed with this obsession.:D

If someone started a thread where they said that they didn't believe that today was Wednesday, you can bet your bottom dollar that someone would come along sharpish and mention that they didn't believe in god, and the same old crap would take off again... :eek:

It was the beliebers who started all this talk of a miracle child with god like talents I tell you!

philologos

Osgoodisgood wrote: »

In the sense that they day I explicitly explain what our family believes about anything is the day Mrs Osgood will hand me my arse on a platter. And she'll be right.

In my house we discuss things and then we all make up our own minds. I don't tell my kids what to believe and I sure as fook won't be telling the missus what to think.

From my POV I'm looking to meet someone who shares my position about Jesus. That's very important to me. If I can't agree on that subject with someone I'm going to spend the rest of my life with how can I agree on much else?

smash

philologos wrote: »

From my POV I'm looking to meet someone who shares my position about Jesus. That's very important to me. If I can't agree on that subject with someone I'm going to spend the rest of my life with how can I agree on much else?

So when are you moving to Mississippi?

just after noticing it happened in Texas....Surprise surprise a state that once considered GW Bush good enough to govern.

floggg

philologos wrote: »

From my POV I'm looking to meet someone who shares my position about Jesus. That's very important to me. If I can't agree on that subject with someone I'm going to spend the rest of my life with how can I agree on much else?

What if she loses her faith for whatever reason after marriage?

Or if your kids don't believe in god once the get old enough to start questioning what they are thought?

You can't control anybody's beliefs but your own.

ejmaztec

floggg wrote: »

It was the beliebers who started all this talk of a miracle child with god like talents I tell you!

Not in AH they didn't.:P

9959

philologos wrote: »

Is it really 'blind fundamentalism' to want Christmas to be about Christ?I believe that Christmas should draw attention to Him because He did something much better. Saving us from sin (Matthew 1:21).

I don't want to blindly follow some cultural practices I find devoid of meaning (Santa, Rudolf, Frosty the Snowman etc).

What I find blind is doing stuff without thinking about it.

As someone who is oft-accused of being an 'a la carte' believer in Santa because of my refusal to accept the ludicrous concept of Frosty the Snowman and the attendant iconography, I find it disheartening that you should see fit to bring this preposterous character into the debate, talk about a 'straw man argument', you're attempting to construct a 'snowman argument'.

My belief in Santa is based on the great story of his life and works, (Santa Down Chimney 25:12) as read to me by my wet-nurse Doris (now 92), nowhere in these readings was Frosty the so-called Snowman ever mentioned, the book itself contains examples, in colourful illustration, of Santa's great work and magical powers, FROSTY IS NEVER MENTIONED.

It's easy for some non-believers in Santa, such as yourself, to dismiss my beliefs on the ridiculous basis of a believe in some other deity other than Santa, (Santa Is Real 99:59).

Merry Christmas.

Osgoodisgood

philologos wrote: »

From my POV I'm looking to meet someone who shares my position about Jesus. That's very important to me. If I can't agree on that subject with someone I'm going to spend the rest of my life with how can I agree on much else?

Yes indeed, you're going to need a special woman. No doubt.
But that's not the point I was making. My point was that telling your family what to think about anything, particularly highly subjective, emotional subjects, is a bad idea. But maybe you need to make that mistake in order to appreciate the lesson.

philologos

floggg wrote: »

What if she loses her faith for whatever reason after marriage?

Or if your kids don't believe in god once the get old enough to start questioning what they are thought?

You can't control anybody's beliefs but your own.

No but you can do your best to be evenly matched in respect to your faith before you are married.
In both situations all one can do is encourage. I.E assure them that you continue to love them unconditionally, make clear that you long for them to come to Christ, and keep praying for them.

Ush1

philologos wrote: »

From my POV I'm looking to meet someone who shares my position about Jesus. That's very important to me. If I can't agree on that subject with someone I'm going to spend the rest of my life with how can I agree on much else?

So what if your kids believe in Santa. You're going to tell them that he's not real but God is?

jesuslovesme

Yeah sure they got to grow up some time!

repsol

jesuslovesme wrote: »

Yeah sure they got to grow up some time!

Yes ,but not at age 5! That is a magical age for kids and is the highlight of the year for them.Most people who want to dispel the whole Santa thing for kids are miserable ****es who don't want the expense of buying toys for their children.

philologos

Ush1 wrote: »

So what if your kids believe in Santa. You're going to tell them that he's not real but God is?

God is evident and even more evident through Jesus. As far as I see it Christmas is about Him and I don't see why Santa should be a part of it.

The presents clearly as something we share with one another put of love and respect. We celebrate the greatest gift of all that comes through Jesus by sharing gifts with one another. I think that philosophy is a heck of a lot more robust.

philologos

philologos wrote: »

No but you can do your best to be evenly matched in respect to your faith before you are married.
In both situations all one can do is encourage. I.E assure them that you continue to love them unconditionally, make clear that you long for them to come to Christ, and keep praying for them.

Load of condescending nonsense.
"I'll pray for you" might work with people you don't know too well, but try that on in an adult relationship and you'll be out on your ear fairly sharp

9959

Ush1 wrote: »

So what if your kids believe in Santa. You're going to tell them that he's not real but God is?

jesuslovesme wrote: »

Yeah sure they got to grow up some time!

I hope Santa and God never grow up, and from reading this thread, it's obvious that the believers in both 'magic men' never do... Well perhaps believers in Santa.

Ush1

philologos wrote: »

God is evident and even more evident through Jesus. As far as I see it Christmas is about Him and I don't see why Santa should be a part of it.

The presents clearly as something we share with one another put of love and respect. We celebrate the greatest gift of all that comes through Jesus by sharing gifts with one another. I think that philosophy is a heck of a lot more robust.

I think if you laid out evidence for God and the evidence for Santa, the kids wouldn't be able to differentiate. They'd already be that smart.

ibarelycare

philologos wrote: »

God is evident and even more evident through Jesus. As far as I see it Christmas is about Him and I don't see why Santa should be a part of it.

The presents clearly as something we share with one another put of love and respect. We celebrate the greatest gift of all that comes through Jesus by sharing gifts with one another. I think that philosophy is a heck of a lot more robust.

You sound like someone who would be a very selfish and narrow-minded parent. You'd already be forcing your beliefs on your child, why not allow them a few years of something that will bring them happiness and a lifetime of lovely memories? Just because YOU don't think Santa shouldn't be a part of Christmas, it doesn't mean your children wouldn't. But they'd never be given the choice because you'd be taking it away from them before they'd know it was happening.

floggg

Ush1 wrote: »

I think if you laid out evidence for God and the evidence for Santa, the kids wouldn't be able to differentiate. They'd already be that smart.

Somebody wrote it in a book a couple of thousand years ago therefore it must be fact.

Which means there's only about 1900 years to go before Gandalf really existed.

[insert "most authentic ancient text" distortion of facts here]

repsol

philologos wrote: »

God is evident and even more evident through Jesus. As far as I see it Christmas is about Him and I don't see why Santa should be a part of it.

The presents clearly as something we share with one another put of love and respect. We celebrate the greatest gift of all that comes through Jesus by sharing gifts with one another. I think that philosophy is a heck of a lot more robust.

I think Santa and religion are separate issues.If we have learned anything in this country its that kids should be kept as far away as possible from religion.Apart from the sex abuse cases you have people shooting each other for years simply because they were a different faith.I go to funerals,weddings etc in church and I don't go otherwise

squod

bluewolf wrote: »

Load of condescending nonsense.
"I'll pray for you" might work with people you don't know too well, but try that on in an adult relationship and you'll be out on your ear fairly sharp

Bah humbug. How do you know? Go for it Phil.

9959

ejmaztec wrote: »

They wouldn't have been accused of being grinches had they not insisted on bringing their non-belief in a deity into a Santy thread. At the moment I'm obsessed with this obsession.:D

If someone started a thread where they said that they didn't believe that today was Wednesday, you can bet your bottom dollar that someone would come along sharpish and mention that they didn't believe in god, and the same old crap would take off again... :eek:

Today is Thursday.























I don't believe in God.

squod

Thread needs more wizard.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CNFnkbwdZM

Sariah

I am a mormon and I believe Christmas is about the birth of Jesus and all the good things that being a christian signifies but I also believe Santa has a huge part to play in all that too and that it doesnt take away from Christmas but adds to it all. I try to spend every day of my life being a good christian and following in his footsteps but I love to see my kids faces on christmas morning and I love buying stuff that I know they will love. I have 5 kids ranging from 19 down to 3 and we try to celebrate christmas in a way that keeps everyone happy.

philologos

bluewolf wrote: »

Load of condescending nonsense.
"I'll pray for you" might work with people you don't know too well, but try that on in an adult relationship and you'll be out on your ear fairly sharp

It's called genuinely caring about your family to seek that they know the truth in Christ. Indeed the same is true for friends.

By the by one can pray for people in private without publically declaring it. My prayers are between me and God for the most part.

flogg's right there's very little you can do to make 100% sure that one will know Christ. But making it a part of family life and actively encouraging to look to Jesus will at least make it clear as a viable option.

I can only hope that my life is a signpost to Jesus. If that was the only thing that was remembered about me when I die, then I reckon that was a good legacy.

Frank Black

Sariah wrote: »

I am a mormon and I believe Christmas is about the birth of Jesus and all the good things that being a christian signifies but I also believe Santa has a huge part to play in all that too and that it doesnt take away from Christmas but adds to it all. I try to spend every day of my life being a good christian and following in his footsteps but I love to see my kids faces on christmas morning and I love buying stuff that I know they will love. I have 5 kids ranging from 19 down to 3 and we try to celebrate christmas in a way that keeps everyone happy.

You had me at 'Mormon'.

9959

squod wrote: »

Thread needs more wizard.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CNFnkbwdZM

I love Roy Wood, the Phil Spector of Birmingham, almost as magical as Santa!

Sofiztikated

While this is a discussion about Santa, I dearly want philologos to answer a question for me. Well, a couple of questions.

1. Is your decision to not tell your future children about Santa Claus brought on by the fact that you don't want to lie to your children, or that you don't want them to think that their father (I'm assuming your male) could tell them something that isn't true?

2. You say you want your partner to have the same belief system as you. What if you've met the perfect partner, that feverently believes in the teachings of Christ, and the word of God, as set out in the New Testament? But what if you differ on the matter of Santa Claus? What if she believes that a little magic at Christmas in the form of Santa Claus enhances and can confirm the magic of the birth of Jesus? Is that a deal breaker?

philologos

repsol wrote: »

I think Santa and religion are separate issues.If we have learned anything in this country its that kids should be kept as far away as possible from religion.Apart from the sex abuse cases you have people shooting each other for years simply because they were a different faith.I go to funerals,weddings etc in church and I don't go otherwise

I'm not a Roman Catholic. I'm simply a Christian. The claims about child abuse have nothing to do with Jesus.

Christmas and Jesus aren't separate to me.

My name is URL

Teachers should no more be expected to perpetuate the Santa fairytale than the God one. The cognitive dissonance in this thread is fruitful.

9959

Sariah wrote: »

I am a mormon and I believe Christmas is about the birth of Jesus and all the good things that being a christian signifies but I also believe Santa has a huge part to play in all that too and that it doesnt take away from Christmas but adds to it all. I try to spend every day of my life being a good christian and following in his footsteps but I love to see my kids faces on christmas morning and I love buying stuff that I know they will love. I have 5 kids ranging from 19 down to 3 and we try to celebrate christmas in a way that keeps everyone happy.

Please don't knock on my door at some 'ungodly' hour to tell me the above.

martingriff

9959 wrote: »

Please don't knock on my door at some 'ungodly' hour to tell me the above.

You may be thinking of jehoviah witnessess there or born again christians dont think Mormans are like that (could be wrong)

Corkfeen

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

I didn't quote Phil because I didn't think the woman was religious - and does he need to be quoted since he is all over the thread? If she were religious I think it would be published as Christian Teacher opposes teaching about Santa.

Could happen, particularly in the US, but not here.

But you're making the massive leap that it's her religious affiliation or lack of that is responsible for this. You have no proof but have assumed it. It's fairly baseless overall. Personally I think it has nothing to do with religion or lack of but more to do with a person being a dick. Based on the story anyway rather than wild claims and generalisations.

hatrickpatrick

Texas

Stopped reading there.
It's funny the way the US fought an extremely bitter and bloody civil war to try and force some of these backwards states to stay within the union. They'd have been better off encouraging them to go so as the rest of the US wouldn't be tarred with their reputation.

That's not being racist by the way, it's simply observing facts - I've seen more f*cked up stories about how many complete jerks there seem to be in positions of authority in Texas than probably any other US state.

Rasmus

9959 wrote: »

Please don't knock on my door at some 'ungodly' hour to tell me the above.

Why the religion bashing? She was just telling her story and it was on topic.

Death and Taxes

I think we should send in Dr Bollocko to deal with her, hoho he would soon sort her out!:D

ElleEm

pontia wrote: »

must have been great to live in that house

It was, actually. My childhood was not negatively affected by not being lied to about a make believe character!

martingriff wrote: »

You may be thinking of jehoviah witnessess there or born again christians dont think Mormans are like that (could be wrong)

Mormons do the knocking too!

philologos

Sofiztikated wrote: »

While this is a discussion about Santa, I dearly want philologos to answer a question for me. Well, a couple of questions.

1. Is your decision to not tell your future children about Santa Claus brought on by the fact that you don't want to lie to your children, or that you don't want them to think that their father (I'm assuming your male) could tell them something that isn't true?

2. You say you want your partner to have the same belief system as you. What if you've met the perfect partner, that feverently believes in the teachings of Christ, and the word of God, as set out in the New Testament? But what if you differ on the matter of Santa Claus? What if she believes that a little magic at Christmas in the form of Santa Claus enhances and can confirm the magic of the birth of Jesus? Is that a deal breaker?

1) Honesty is something I value. I'd feel quite conflicted about lying like this.

2) I don't believe Jesus' birth was 'magic'. God caused it to happen, that's not the same as 'magic'. I don't think it would be a dealbreaker but we'd definitely have to discuss it.

smash

philologos wrote: »

It's called genuinely caring about your family to seek that they know the truth in Christ.

What truth? you say this over and over so tell us... what truth?

And if they accept what you say as truth, what next? Just keep rehashing the same crap over and over just to be sure?

ibarelycare

philologos wrote: »

1) Honesty is something I value. I'd feel quite conflicted about lying like this.

2) I don't believe Jesus' birth was 'magic'. God caused it to happen, that's not the same as 'magic'. I don't think it would be a dealbreaker but we'd definitely have to discuss it.

What would you do if your children turned around one day and told you that they didn't believe that the bible was truth?

repsol

philologos wrote: »

I'm not a Roman Catholic. I'm simply a Christian. The claims about child abuse have nothing to do with Jesus.

Christmas and Jesus aren't separate to me.

I think they were a bit more than "claims about child abuse" as you put it.

hatrickpatrick

Interesting thread, I'd never really thought about it but I suppose it would be a plus if a girlfriend shares my beliefs. Don't think it'd be a deal breaker though UNLESS they were "anti theist" - difference between an atheist and an anti theist being that an atheist simply doesn't believe in God, an anti theist makes it their mission to troll and argue with anyone who does and prove them wrong. Can't hack that kind of sh!te, but that's not exclusive to religion I reckon, it just means I don't like arrogant know it alls

philologos

ibarelycare wrote: »

You sound like someone who would be a very selfish and narrow-minded parent. You'd already be forcing your beliefs on your child, why not allow them a few years of something that will bring them happiness and a lifetime of lovely memories? Just because YOU don't think Santa shouldn't be a part of Christmas, it doesn't mean your children wouldn't. But they'd never be given the choice because you'd be taking it away from them before they'd know it was happening.

You're the one being intolerant. Why must I follow a cultural tradition I don't agree with? Why should I have to lie? Moreover how is that a good thing to do to a child?

Finally why us pointing to Jesus any more selfish than pointing to Santa?

Happiness and good memories still come at Christmas. Gift sharing and timesharing with friends and family still takes place.

I think what's rude and what's selfish is forcing everyone to lie.

philologos

ibarelycare wrote: »

What would you do if your children turned around one day and told you that they didn't believe that the bible was truth?

I've answered this question already. I'd love them unconditionally, encourage them to come back to the Gospel and pray for them.

hatrickpatrick

Want to add something else here which I don't think has been really gone into.
We can argue about the ethics of telling kids about Santa or not telling them. BUT, can we not agree that HAVING ALREADY TOLD THEM HE'S REAL, which most Western parents do, for a teacher to just drop a bomb on their beliefs like that is unspeakably cruel. Maybe you think they should never have been introduced to the story in the first place, and fair enough if you do think that, but the fact is that most kids do, and by smacking them in the face like that at 5 years old all you're going to do is make them sad and unhappy in the short term, coming up to Christmas especially. No matter how you look at it IMO, it's an absolutely b!tchy thing to do and she shouldn't be working with kids. Obviously has no compassion whatsoever.

philologos

repsol wrote: »

I think they were a bit more than "claims about child abuse" as you put it.

If you want a proper answer write a proper question.

The child abuse reference has nothing to do with me or what I believe.

xxmeabhxx

What a scrooge of a teacher! I don't know why so many people are comparing Santa to religion? Yes Christmas is a religious festival but I certainly don't recall Santa being in the Bible, it's a bit of fun made up to add some mystery to the whole celebration for kids. It's just mean for the teacher to tell them all he's not real. If you decide you don't want to tell your kids about Santa at all, fair enough it's up to you what beliefs you want to raise them with but no need to spoil other people's fun.

philologos

philologos wrote: »

I
The child abuse reference has nothing to do with me or what I believe.

That doesn't make it ok to be derogatory toward the victims

Dodge

philologos wrote: »

I think what's rude and what's selfish is forcing everyone to lie.

I honestly don't know how you can parent without lying a little bit.

The "if you don't go to bed now, Santy won't bring you any presents" line is far more likely to work for me than "if you don't go to bed now, you'll p!ss me and your mam off and you'll be cranky as hell tomorrow" one

ElleEm

I think people are being harsh Philologos.

He/ she clearly very religious and views Christmas in a certain way. This is his/ her way and I don't think people should criticise it. We may not all agree on things but there is no point in attacking a poster over it.


I think these are good points!!

philologos wrote: »

Why must I follow a cultural tradition I don't agree with? Why should I have to lie? Moreover how is that a good thing to do to a child?

Happiness and good memories still come at Christmas. Gift sharing and timesharing with friends and family still takes place.

Ye, I do see the issue about lying to kids about santa, cos you are lying to them
On the other hand, it does teach them to always question authority