Its about Time

pconn062

RunningKing wrote: »

Cheers pconn - certainly makes sense.

Is the percieved wisdom to do all runs per HR or just worry about the session type runs?

Must do some research on it.

I know some people use them on every single run, if it was me I would only use it on session days that involved tempo and stuff like that which involve long periods at a certain effort. For easy days you could use it to make sure you don't push too much but I think you can do this by feel and reacting to how your body feels. There are people here who know a lot more about this stuff than I do!

menoscemo

The most I would ever do at HMP is 6-7 miles, but surely the big problem is that the pace last night was way too fast for HMP?
Unless of course you are planning to run 1:21-1:22 in clontarf?

MisterDrak

At the risk of stating the obvious here, your all of you pace miles seem to be way to fast?
The average of the 6 miles equates to 6:21. If your going for a 1:27 on the Clontarf half you should have even splits of around 6:38. So you were running 17sec faster per mile that you needed to be?

Your 5K PB (Correct me here) is 18:31 from Malahide, so avg pace for the 5K is 5:57. So your half pace (admittedly for 6 miles ) in only 24sec slower that you 5 K PB pace?

career_move

The warm up is RK's easy pace so that looks OK to me, would you burn up a lot of glycogen after 3 miles?
The point I was making is not how much glycogen you are burning up rather that you are in fact burning glycogen which could be put to better use in the session
I think the issue is more the prep also for RK as you mentioned you didn't eat right before the the session, and maybe the glycogen levels were low at the starting point?

For me, I wouldn't be worrying about glycogen at all until anything after 16 miles.
Good for you. I wish I had your metabolic pathways

It's probably lactate you would be more concerned with on a session like this.
Not at HM pace you wouldn't unless your HM pace is too aggressive

RunningKing

MisterDrak wrote: »

At the risk of stating the obvious here, your all of you pace miles seem to be way to fast?
The average of the 6 miles equates to 6:21. If your going for a 1:27 on the Clontarf half you should have even splits of around 6:38. So you were running 17sec faster per mile that you needed to be?

Your 5K PB (Correct me here) is 18:31 from Malahide, so avg pace for the 5K is 5:57. So your half pace (admittedly for 6 miles ) in only 24sec slower that you 5 K PB pace?

yep - therein lies the problem - I couldn't control the pace at all.
My half mile splits would show movement from 7m/m down to 6:00 for some of the miles.

I wanted to hit 6:35's for each rep and failed miserably, but at the same time, didn't want to be watching the watch all the time - most of it was ran by feel. Speeding up or slowing down when I look at the watch.

As I've been doing a lot of Tempo runs at 6:20(ish) recently - I guess thats why I was gravitating to that speed.
I found the tempo pace difficult at 1st, & took a number of runs to get it right.

Plan for clontarf is to set off on the high side (maybe with the 1:30 pacers) and push on slightly after 2-3 miles - this will help me get a rhythm going.

blockic

career_move wrote: »

It's probably lactate you would be more concerned with on a session like this.
Not at HM pace you wouldn't unless your HM pace is too aggressive

Agree with your first point but would disagree with this one, some people's HM pace would be very close to their lactate threshold pace so lactate would be something you would have to keep an eye on.

Your lactate threshold is defined as the fastest pace you can run without generating more lactic acid than your body can utilize and reconvert back into energy. This pace usually corresponds to 10 mile or half marathon race pace. Therefore a tempo run or threshold run is basically a workout that is designed to have you running at just below or at your threshold pace.

http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/what-is-lactate-threshold/

Debate is good!

RunningKing

menoscemo wrote: »

The most I would ever do at HMP is 6-7 miles, but surely the big problem is that the pace last night was way too fast for HMP?
Unless of course you are planning to run 1:21-1:22 in clontarf?

got the pacing wrong Meno, couldnt control it. - just done a reply to Mr Drak on same.

blockic

RunningKing wrote: »

got the pacing wrong Meno, couldnt control it. - just done a reply to Mr Drak on same.

Still a great session though!

menoscemo

blockic wrote: »

Still a great session though!

+1

career_move

blockic wrote: »

Agree with your first point but would disagree with this one, some people's HM pace would be very close to their lactate threshold pace so lactate would be something you would have to keep an eye on.



http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/what-is-lactate-threshold/

Debate is good!

In training you should be running one of the following paces and have a reason for it:
- Recovery Pace
- Easy Pace
- Marathon Pace
- Half Marathon Pace
- LT (Lactate Threshold) Pace
- CV (Critical Velocity) Pace
- 10km Pace
- 5km Pace
- 3km (Vo2 Max) Pace
- 400m-1500m (Speed) Paces

Each has a role to play and affects our bodys phsiology differently.

You have a limited supply of sugar, that is, and you can't burn it up too fast. If you set the thermostat high, it burns hot! VO2 max types of workouts set the thermostat high. It's ok to include some 3k to 5k running, but not much should be done, in my opinion, during the 10 weeks prior to the marathon. Just enough to improve leg strength, that's it!

Tempos have different meanings to different people. To me, it is a range of intensities from just above moderate to just below hard paces.

In my opinion, what you use for tempos depends upon (at least) four factors:

1) your current fitness level. The slower you are or the less fit you are the more likely you should use lower intensities;

2) your goal race-distance. The shorter the race distance distance the more important it would be to use harder (faster) tempos in training;

3) your time-frame. If you are far away from your goal race, using lower intensity, longer duration tempos is a good idea (this is my opinion based on experience only). The closer you are to a race the more important it is to simulate the type of intensity you'll be facing in a race. Thus, if you were close to a big 5k race then using fast tempos would be a good idea. If you are close to a marathon race, longer but slower tempos would probably work well and be the most helpful in terms of improving race-performance.

4) your natural capacities. Simply put, one runner may thrive on faster but shorter tempos while another may thrive on longer and slower tempos. It's a personal thing.


Some Guidelines below (Remember use CURRENT pace):
Long Tempos - Current 5k plus plus about 1:15-1:30 per minute
Medium Tempos - Current 5k pace plus 45-60 seconds per mile.
Short Tempos - Current 5k pace plus 30-45 seconds per mile
CV Intervals - Current 5k pace plus 8-12 seconds per km

CV pace is the center of the training zone or range for distance runners, it covers 95% of all the things you need. It raises VO2 max. It raises LT or AnT or whatever you want to call it. It improves efficiency. It raises overall leg strength (substantially more than easy distance running) and nearly as much as much as VO2 max - which is 100% of aerobic power - because you can do a lot of CV compared to VO2 max pace.

The above are examples of straight tempos continuos 3-8 mile runs. LT intervals can be anything from 800m-3 mile reps broken up by 30 secs-3 mins jog recoveries.

LT Workout ideas: without getting fancy, use the following rules of thumb:

Short intervals (800m reps): 5k pace plus 20 seconds per mile (rest 30 sec. per 800)

Medium intervals (1 mile reps): 5k pace plus 30 seconds per mile (rest 1 minute per mile)

Long intervals (1.5 mile reps): 5k pace plus 40 seconds per mile (rest 1.5 minutes per 1.5 miles)

People can also go by time eg 3*10 mins or 4*8 mins etc and use a HR monitor and go by feel (this is best way to go about it, listen to your own body). You can also use progression runs of say 40-70 mins starting easy and moving into a steady pace after say 20 mins and finish strong but no faster then 10 mile race pace. These are really beneficial but need to keep controlled.

Lactate Threshold pace is (theoretically) the fastest pace you can hold before lactate rises at a substantially elevated and disproportional rate. Typically coaches talk about 1-hr race pace when using the term LT. Physiologists use laboratory methods or techniques to identify LT.

There is debate about LT. Some people argue about how it is assessed. Others argue about whether it really exists. In a practical way, it doesn’t matter if it really exists. What counts is this: The speed, velocity or power output at a given sub-max lactate does relate directly to metabolic demands and efficiency. If you train wisely, you will be able to run faster or generate more power at a given lactate level. This means you’ll race faster. If you ran 6:00 per mile pace at a 4 mmol of lactate a month ago and now you run 5:52, then your training was effective. That is what counts.

Tergat

blockic

Seen that already thanks, just giving my own opinion on the matter

career_move

blockic wrote: »

Seen that already thanks, just giving my own opinion on the matter

Didn't know you wrote for runners connect

http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/what-is-lactate-threshold/

RunningKing

career_move wrote: »

In my opinion, what you use for tempos depends upon (at least) four factors:

1) your current fitness level. The slower you are or the less fit you are the more likely you should use lower intensities;

2) your goal race-distance. The shorter the race distance distance the more important it would be to use harder (faster) tempos in training;

3) your time-frame. If you are far away from your goal race, using lower intensity, longer duration tempos is a good idea (this is my opinion based on experience only). The closer you are to a race the more important it is to simulate the type of intensity you'll be facing in a race. Thus, if you were close to a big 5k race then using fast tempos would be a good idea. If you are close to a marathon race, longer but slower tempos would probably work well and be the most helpful in terms of improving race-performance.

4) your natural capacities. Simply put, one runner may thrive on faster but shorter tempos while another may thrive on longer and slower tempos. It's a personal thing.



There is debate about LT. Some people argue about how it is assessed. Others argue about whether it really exists. In a practical way, it doesn’t matter if it really exists. What counts is this: The speed, velocity or power output at a given sub-max lactate does relate directly to metabolic demands and efficiency. If you train wisely, you will be able to run faster or generate more power at a given lactate level. This means you’ll race faster. If you ran 6:00 per mile pace at a 4 mmol of lactate a month ago and now you run 5:52, then your training was effective. That is what counts.

Tergat

thanks for that CM - I've read a lot of Tergats stuff, but missed that - which thread is that from? (and if you have any more can you send on the links - it'll add to the confusion on my marathon planning )

blockic

career_move wrote: »

Didn't know you wrote for runners connect

http://runnersconnect.net/running-training-articles/what-is-lactate-threshold/

New job

blockic wrote: »

It's probably lactate you would be more concerned with on a session like this.

I won't continue clogging RK's log, I think the point I was only trying to make is that for RK's session, you would be more concerned with lactate building rather than glycogen. That's all.

Right, I need to go back to work!

Gavlor

blockic wrote: »

Still a great session though!

This. Does it really matter if you went a bit fast and found it hard going?

blockic

RunningKing wrote: »

thanks for that CM - I've read a lot of Tergats stuff

It is a great post, as are all his posts!

In terms of our marathon planning, is their such thing as having too much information? Over-complication?

RunningKing

CM / Blockic - great debate on the LT stuff.

I reckon I'm too anal about reducing my LT at the expense of other stuff. All of my sessions recently are designed around LT.

My 10 mile pace would be about 6:23 (according to mcMillan) - but then again he has me at a 1:25 HM, which I dont think is doable this month.
While yesterdays session would have been at the LT end of things, I think other factors played their part (heat, nutrition, hydration, travel, tiredness) etc.
Certainly if I had of been able to control the pace at 6:35's - then maybe I'd have done the 6 more comfortably or stretched to 7.

Methinks I'll be using the HR monitor more in the early stages of the DCM training to see if it aids me or confuses me more!

career_move

RunningKing wrote: »

thanks for that CM - I've read a lot of Tergats stuff, but missed that - which thread is that from? (and if you have any more can you send on the links - it'll add to the confusion on my marathon planning )

That's from this thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=65501360#post65501360

There's some good stuff on marathon plans here
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=72532515

and also this one if you're trying to make your own plan
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_1/105.shtml

and this post from ecoli
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=69602818&postcount=3

And I think you've seen this one
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055825141

Stuff on heart rate zones
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055456854

I hope you weren't planning on doing too much work today :D

RunningKing

Gavlor wrote: »

This. Does it really matter if you went a bit fast and found it hard going?

dont you go strolling in here with your over simplification of things and making perfect sense ............ :pac:

ecoli

Good to see a bit of debate on training on the forum it seems to be an element which has been lost over the last few years on the forum to an extent.

@blockic I think when reading that article you need to take into context the target audience. He is trying to over simplify things and as such uses 10m-HM pace as many people starting off running have no way of judging what sort of race pace is sustainable for an hour

I also think the misconception has come from people interpreting top coaches methodologies and adapting them to various levels without actually taking into account the physiological effects within the body.

If you talk to Coaches such as Canova, Salazar etc they will probably tell you that An Threshold pace would be about Half marathon pace but if you look to their athletes this is because their athletes are running close to 60 for a Half.

Likewise looking to people who run 60 min pace for a 10 miler I would say their An Threshold would be closer to 10 mile pace.

The problem is derived from the fact that these applications are applied down the field without regard to the fact that as we go down the talent pool we come to people whose bodies are underdeveloped in their ability to buffer lactate from the body and as such need to develop.

ecoli

RunningKing wrote: »

I reckon I'm too anal about reducing my LT at the expense of other stuff. All of my sessions recently are designed around LT.

My advice would be to simplify things working each facet (at varying levels) working on a all aspects of fundamental fitness

Here is a fairly basic cycle which can be a great build up for 10 weeks before 8 weeks specific marathon work:

Week 1 - Mile paced reps, Short Tempo (AnT or LT), Medium Length Long Steady run
Week 2- 3k-5k longer reps, Long Tempo (MP), Long Run

Add in you easy miles around and you will be suprised the strength you build up

ecoli

blockic wrote: »

It is a great post, as are all his posts!

In terms of our marathon planning, is their such thing as having too much information? Over-complication?

The more I run and deep understanding I have of running, the simpler my plans seem to get.

As is so often said on Letsrun; "Just Run baby the rest will take care of itself"

RunningKing

ecoli wrote: »

My advice would be to simplify things working each facet (at varying levels) working on a all aspects of fundamental fitness

Here is a fairly basic cycle which can be a great build up for 10 weeks before 8 weeks specific marathon work:

Week 1 - Mile paced reps, Short Tempo (AnT or LT), Medium Length Long Steady run
Week 2- 3k-5k longer reps, Long Tempo (MP), Long Run

Add in you easy miles around and you will be suprised the strength you build up

great advice ecoli, many thanks.

Cleanman

All this debate over one "bad" session:eek::eek:

You should train badly more often RK, you'll get lots and lots of advice!

I'm not going to try and comment on what's been said, I simply don't have enough knowledge....but I will say that you know what you did wrong and have learned a lesson, it's all part of experience. You still have your health and your fitness isn't negatively impacted so overall, happy days:D

ecoli wrote: »

I also think the misconception has come from people interpreting top coaches methodologies and adapting them to various levels without actually taking into account the physiological effects within the body.

If you talk to Coaches such as Canova, Salazar etc they will probably tell you that An Threshold pace would be about Half marathon pace but if you look to their athletes this is because their athletes are running close to 60 for a Half.

Likewise looking to people who run 60 min pace for a 10 miler I would say their An Threshold would be closer to 10 mile pace.

ecoli - Am I over simplyfying my interpretation of this as saying that one's threshold pace is whatever pace one is able to hold for 60mins of racing??

ecoli

Cleanman wrote: »

ecoli - Am I over simplyfying my interpretation of this as saying that one's threshold pace is whatever pace one is able to hold for 60mins of racing??

Effectively yes which creates the problem of this sort of training in athletes new to the sport as their bodies are not trained enough to conduct these sort of sessions properly (i.e for someone running 60 min for 10k for example)

Obviously these are just rough guidelines alot with the lines of;
MHR-25
or
4 mmol in terms of blood lactates

The only accurate way to do this is to get Vo2 max and blood lactate tests regularly (roughly every 6 weeks) in order to monitor and adjust training HRs to establish training zones

But I agree with your first part in terms of training RK realises the one major aspect which was the making or breaking of this season. Regardless of how you approach what the training paces the fact is it was a an effort closer to race effort than "Tempo" (however you want to define this)

Which comes back to the cardinal rule:

Don't race sessions

RK knows this and we all have done this is some sessions at some stage in our running career so nothing to get too bogged down with it and keep training away

(Nothing wrong with the debate though, bar the clogging up of RKs log. Its nice to know the finer details but more often than not application is alot simpler than the in depth knowledge behind training)

RunningKing

Thursday 4th July:
4 miles recovery @8:17 pace. Nice easy run in Porterstown park.

Friday 5th July:
Spent the day in work..................... on a treasure hunt around pubs in Temple Bar - went to 7-8 pubs in total on the 'hunt' , followed by a 'Craft Beer' tasting session in Farringtons (who have a good range of craft beers on tap), followed by finger food, followed by more beer.
Tough job this.

Saturday 6th July:
Woke up at 8am with a tounge like the floor of a saw mill that hadn't seen a brush in a decade.

My oldest gurl, she's 13 this weekend, so as part of her Birthday, she wanted me to bring her to Malahide Park Run to run the 5k.
As its her race (and I ran with her to pace her around) - I'll let her do the race report!!

***************************************************************************

Malahide Park Run.

Hi I wanted to do a race on my birthday as last year I did a race and I enjoyed it so I picked the Malahide Park Run because I love Malahide Castle and it's a lovely park and route I woke up feeling confident like it was a walk in the park (pun not intended) but as I started to have my breakfast I realised I hadn't done much training and I was worried I couldn't keep my time of 27 minutes something. In the car I was thinking about the pace and times, I wanted to do it in under 27. We got there and jogged to the start line, I had a stitch. I did some stretches and I felt another stitch coming on. As the Race Director (apparently Peckam on here) was gathering us up to tell us the rules ect, he wished me a happy 13th birthday in front of 400 people and everyone clapped which took some nerves off (thanks daddy).
He also mentioned about Daddy getting lost on his last run in Malahide.

Mile 1: At the first hill I got a stitch. I put my hands over my head and breathed in hard but it only got worse. I ran with this throughout! This mile was the best as the stitch eased and the pace was steady. I was doing about 9.4 minute miles, and I realised I wasn't going to get under 27, so I just ran and didn't care for a time, but at least under 30 minutes, which I've never gone over.

Mile 2: This mile went slow as I was about half way through and the stitch went to my left rib. My pace was a bit messed up and I felt like I was running forever, but at the end of mile 2 I realised I was nearly done and my pace quickened. It was good to have my Daddy at my ear for motivation - I wasn't going to stop now

Mile 3: I loved mile 3 as I had a sudden burst of energy near the end! I was pushing my hardest and at the home straight my pace quickened and my legs brought me to the finish line - overtaking about 6 or 7 people before crossing the line!
On crossing the line I got a few people saying 'happy birthday', which made my run even better.
I felt like getting sick and light headed, but I had a good run and I was proud that I didn't stop even with a stitch (which was going by the finish!) I lay down and got some energy back and we walked (my legs were KILLING me!)to Avoca to get some food.
My time was 27 minutes 52 seconds, in 222nd place out of 396 - but my goal was too not stop

I'll definitely be back to do it again.

****************************************************************************

So - that was her 1st race report on her birthday weekend!
Many, many thanks to Peckham for the great shout out - really made her day, and the number of people saying Happy Birthday to her was great - don't know about the extra bits about getting lost though!!

On returning home - I went back out for 12 miles.

12 Miles - Phoenix Park.
Drove down to the Farmleigh entrance (leave water there in the car) and set off down the north road and back up to the top of chesterfield and then right back down again. Hit Parkgate street and went up by Military hill, the upper glen road as well as furry glen - nice to get all those hills in. Very warm out there and at this stage, I was just thinking of getting a drink. I had the Lions game on for the whole run, so was great to listen to a victory on the way around.
Turned at ordanance survey road and then back to Farmleigh for a total of 12:09 miles.

I hadn't a drink with me and didn't stop at the car either - so was parched with thirst.

Total miles for the day: 15:21.

Tom Joad

your daughter mightn't be a fast as you yet RK but she writes a far better race report... Only messing - you must be a proud Dad!!

career_move

Super race report. Well done and happy birthday

Cleanman

Excellent race report from Junior Rk. Looks like she has the running enthusiasm and writing skills of her da! Noice that you got a long run in after - the easy option would have been to bask in little RK's triumph!

blockic

RunningKing wrote: »

I felt like getting sick and light headed.

Brilliant, I see you are training her well!