Is NPPR being replaced by the new Property Tax?

Pkiernan

Or will it be a double whammy?

Anyone know?

L1011

Still liable for 2013 but then its gone.

cgarrad

Above is correct, full NPPR and 6 months Property Tax due in 2013.

Household charge is gone.

Pkiernan

Thanks folks

The_Conductor

The payment schedule for the new Property tax was published today- they're just discussing it on RTE news at the moment.
With the NPPR - unfortunately it is a double whammy for 2013, but the NPPR aspect of it is abolished thereafter. You have until the 21st of July to pay the property tax, if paying by lumpsum, or the 1st of July if paying by installments. Now to figure how much the house is worth!

siralan

If the NPPR still applies for this year then should it not only apply for the first 6 months of the year? My mum has only one house but actually lives in a house owned by myself and my brother. An accountant has told her that she should have been paying the NPPR for past 4 years on her own house which is rented out and that with arrears she owes over €3,000. Needless to say, she is distraught . She is semi retired and not a wealthy woman. We had assumed previously that because she only owns one house she should not face this "Second home" tax.
Has anyone any experience of this or advice ? If she didnt pay, could she claim in future years that she did live in the property during the NPPR years and only had a couple of rooms rented out to lodgers?

The_Conductor

Come clean with Revenue- she will only get caught out if she doesn't. I don't know how much the NPPR for the past 4 years, with arrears and penalties will come to- but the advice she has been given is accurate- it is due, and will have to be paid.

NPPR- stands for Non-Principle-Private-Residence- it doesn't matter whether its the only property you own, or whether you own and entire apartment block- once you own a property and it is not your principle place of residence- the NPPR is due on it.

As an aside- if your mother is living in a property that you own with your sister- its not your principle private residence (unless you live there too) and you and your sister also owe NPPR on it......... You probably didn't want to hear that.......

The advice you've been given is accurate. Don't play games with Revenue- they are told tall tales every day of the week, they don't take kindly to it.

One possible avenue to explore- if your mother is of limited means- is deferring the payments (both the NPPR and the LPT) and paying it at a later date, or you can schedule the payments, so they're not in a single lump sum. Check it out. Note- if you defer the payments you get hit with the standard ECB+4%, and not the penalty 8% rate.

Ps- not sure where you got the notion that its a 'second home' charge- its never been discussed in this manner anywhere that I know of........

siralan

Thanks for the advice. Yes, Im aware that its not actually a second home tax but when government introduced it, it was introduced as a wealth tax even though it has cost us more money than you imagine. Its not that I or she wants to evade tax but morally it is such an unfair charge and the penalty extortionate.

Is it true that this is the last year of the NPPR ?

sunnysoutheast

siralan wrote: »

Thanks for the advice. Yes, Im aware that its not actually a second home tax but when government introduced it, it was introduced as a wealth tax even though it has cost us more money than you imagine. Its not that I or she wants to evade tax but morally it is such an unfair charge and the penalty extortionate.

Is it true that this is the last year of the NPPR ?

Whatever your view on the morality of the NPPR it's not as if it was sneaked in under the radar though is it? I think a lot of people will get a major shock when they try to sell or transfer property on which it should have been paid and the conveyancing solicitor starts asking for the receipts.

NPPR ceases 1 Jan 2014, replaced by property tax. I think you have a point that it should only be a half-year charge, but here we are.

siralan

Its incredible that you pay a NPPR plus household tax full stop. At least it ceases in 2014, thats something I suppose. But, its a very difficult pill to swallow when your 9 years into a mortage and even at that the house still in negative equity. In this so called 'free state' of ours the upper class choose not to pay, the lower class cant pay so the working class are squeezed until every penny of disposable income is taken from them. People work to pay bills , its so frustating whats happened to this great country of ours.

sunnysoutheast

siralan wrote: »

Its incredible that you pay a NPPR plus household tax full stop. At least it ceases in 2014, thats something I suppose. But, its a very difficult pill to swallow when your 9 years into a mortage and even at that the house still in negative equity. In this so called 'free state' of ours the upper class choose not to pay, the lower class cant pay so the working class are squeezed until every penny of disposable income is taken from them. People work to pay bills , its so frustating whats happened to this great country of ours.

Well I would almost certainly agree with some of your sentiments, but that is a discussion for another thread and/or forum.

Unfortunately I think you will have to pay the NPPR arrears. I know a couple of people who have had to pay significant bills when selling property.

j2dab

Special Property Tax down the line for NPPR? Wouldn't surprise me...

fergiesfolly

Excuse if this is off topic. Will we still have to pay last years household charge, seeing as its being replaced with a property tax. And if yes, is there a deadline date for it?

D3PO

siralan wrote: »

If the NPPR still applies for this year then should it not only apply for the first 6 months of the year? My mum has only one house but actually lives in a house owned by myself and my brother. An accountant has told her that she should have been paying the NPPR for past 4 years on her own house which is rented out and that with arrears she owes over €3,000. Needless to say, she is distraught . She is semi retired and not a wealthy woman. We had assumed previously that because she only owns one house she should not face this "Second home" tax.
Has anyone any experience of this or advice ? If she didnt pay, could she claim in future years that she did live in the property during the NPPR years and only had a couple of rooms rented out to lodgers?

Sorry but ignorance isnt an excuse. If your mother is renting out her home shes expected to understand her obligations and act professionally as a landlord.

As for claiming she was living there, if she doesn I hope revenue come down on her like a tonne of bricks if she does. Trust me they will find out, tenants claiming rent relief using that address, noticing her post has been redirected elswhere etc.

She messed up and its an expensive lesson, but she owes the money.

StillWaters

D3PO wrote: »

Sorry but ignorance isnt an excuse. If your mother is renting out her home shes expected to understand her obligations and act professionally as a landlord.

As for claiming she was living there, if she doesn I hope revenue come down on her like a tonne of bricks if she does. Trust me they will find out, tenants claiming rent relief using that address, noticing her post has been redirected elswhere etc.

She messed up and its an expensive lesson, but she owes the money.

I'm afraid your mother is going to have to pay. Lying to Revenue about living there just won't wash. Has she submitted a return under the rent a room scheme for the past 3 years?

As for your own liability, if you live within 2km of the house your mother resides in you are exempt.

Ogham

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Excuse if this is off topic. Will we still have to pay last years household charge, seeing as its being replaced with a property tax. And if yes, is there a deadline date for it?

Full details here (Pay by July or it goes up to €200) http://www.moneyguideireland.com/the-household-charge-hasnt-gone-away.html

murphaph

I don't believe Revenue are responsible for collecting the NPPR. It's not where I send my NPPR charge anyway. Anyway, your mum owes the money for the house she let unfortunately. The house that your mother lives in MIGHT be exempt though. I thought there was an exemption if the property was occupied by close family. You should check up on that.

Victor

fergiesfolly wrote: »

Excuse if this is off topic. Will we still have to pay last years household charge, seeing as its being replaced with a property tax. And if yes, is there a deadline date for it?

Yes. You should have paid the NPPR / household charge for previous years in those years.

This year's NPPR must be paid between March and June 2013 www.nppr.ie/default.aspx

Your first LPT payment is due in July 2013 www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/housing_taxes_and_reliefs/local_property_tax.html

murphaph wrote: »

I don't believe Revenue are responsible for collecting the NPPR. It's not where I send my NPPR charge anyway.

Councils have collected the NPPR and Household Charge to date. Household Charge arrears will be converted to LPT from July 2012. I presume councils will continue to collect NPPR.

sungear

Victor wrote: »

Yes. You should have paid the NPPR / household charge for previous years in those years.

This year's NPPR must be paid between March and June 2013 www.nppr.ie/default.aspx

Your first LPT payment is due in July 2013 www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/housing_taxes_and_reliefs/local_property_tax.html

Councils have collected the NPPR and Household Charge to date. Household Charge arrears will be converted to LPT from July 2012. I presume councils will continue to collect NPPR.

How do they justify the overlap of double charging people? On the face of it I disagree with it and I actually think a lot of landlords wont be able to pay for it
Ok, so they charge people NPPR, I get that, it was a prelude to every household being charged something and they knew most people wouldnt care or protest (even if people do protest for the LPT, they will just ignore it, so any "lobby for change proponents" if you think anything is unjust really is a joke unless the whole nation shuts down to support some issue).

a number of properties near me are rented (quite a few), some are in a bit of a state of disrepair and most of the rented ones have been since day one when the estate was built, of these a number have had tenants that seem to think anti social behaviour is a hobby.
The properties are not registered with the PRTB, so no way to contact landlord, of the few I managed to approach I was told none of my business so I approached the council and they dont seem to have any concern about following unpaid NPPR up or when it changes over to LPT.

Basically the NPPR as I have been told (like I have been told about the PRTB) is a self reporting issue, so the council is only interested in chasing those who were honest enough to pay but maybe cant afford to but not those that never even registered.
This sounds completely stupid and backwards, in that it supports and promotes the idea that not registering for any charge really is the best thing to do.

Victor

sungear wrote: »

so the council is only interested in chasing those who were honest enough to pay but maybe cant afford to but not those that never even registered.

The councils and revenue are playing the long game. At some point in the future, the property will eventually be sold and all those years of taxes will have to be paid.

The_Conductor

Victor wrote: »

The councils and revenue are playing the long game. At some point in the future, the property will eventually be sold and all those years of taxes will have to be paid.

Along with fines, and the interest rate charged will be the penalty rate (currently 8%) compounded.

sungear

Victor wrote: »

The councils and revenue are playing the long game. At some point in the future, the property will eventually be sold and all those years of taxes will have to be paid.

And how will they know, in any situation?
Even in a situation for example mr or mrs blogs own a house, the partner moves in and then only one other house is bought somewhere else and they move in and live together (while keeping the original rented).

If they have been doing this for a long time and the first property was rented out to say one group of people all along and the property is never registered with the PRTB and they collect payments in cash, how will anyone know or would they even be bothered to follow NPPR up in 10,15 or more years?? not to mention the capital gains.

I contacted a council about it and they basically didnt seem to care and said it is self reporting and if someone isnt registered they cant really do anything??
Nor did they suggest anyone was designated to collect it,
If they dont care then this makes a mockery of agreeing to put your name to anytrhing and if they are holding out playing the long game then why wouldnt any home owner or owner of a rented property just do the same in the hope of it just being thrown out in the long run by large scale
opposition from the public?

If the LPT stays in place then, I can see how it can be totted up, but the NPPr would already have incurred significant penalties if a person had not registered and paid, are they really going to follow THAT up?

The_Conductor

Read the bill.
They have access to all manner of data- most notably the ESB's supply database. They thus have an extensive database of every property in the country that has a connection to the national grid. Yes- there may be a few rednecks who are proud to be fully self sufficient- but they're going to be few and far between.

If, as is expected, the Local Property Tax, turns into a residential tax (the same as the rest of Europe) rather than a tax on ownership- bang goes your argument about a tenant hiding the landlord's details from Revenue........

Revenue are far from stupid- and will crank up their resources if they're unhappy with the level of compliance- and chase the naysayers. The penalties and fines alone will scare most people into complying- all others will require investigation- which will take time- but time is something we have lots of........

Its a waiting game- it will take time- and all the time it takes accrues more penalties and fines, its not going to pay for anyone in the long term to try to run and hide........

Personally I don't think we're going to have Residential tax as a separate tax- I think the current local property tax is going to morph into a residential tax after perhaps 4-5 years as officials see how its bedded down.

You can play mind games with Revenue if you like- but they will catch up on you- eventually, and by god, they'll punish you when they do...........

murphaph

Indeed, the property will change hands eventually and the owners (probably unsuspecting heirs) will end up handing the whole thing to Revenue. It's a long game but property sales can't be hidden forever.

sungear

Im not sure if this post is a reply to my post but I assume so?
My question was will anyone follow up the NPPR or will it go away?
If it is just let go away, it seems to make a fool of those that registered so I assume not.

Im asking here on boards, Im not inclined to read the bill and get bogged down in that as Im not asking or disputing the LPT (I dont really agree with it,in the sense that it is at the wrong time, should have been done a decade ago, but thats a seperate thing, but do in the sense that each locality should pay for its own resources. Which makes me wonder will low density population areas get less services,)

I never knew or expected that the LPT would transform into an occupier tax instead of an ownership tax, this is the first Ive heard of that, although I know many will not agree with me, I think if you are availing of services in an area then you should pay the associated charge, it does seem to make sense.

If thats whats to occur, it kind of makes sense why they would do things in this order, as they would be pitted against tenants and landlords at the same time if they tried to introduce that initially.

Im not suggesting anyone play games with revenue.

smccarrick wrote: »

Read the bill.


They have access to all manner of data- most notably the ESB's supply database. They thus have an extensive database of every property in the country that has a connection to the national grid. Yes- there may be a few rednecks who are proud to be fully self sufficient- but they're going to be few and far between.



If, as is expected, the Local Property Tax, turns into a residential tax (the same as the rest of Europe) rather than a tax on ownership- bang goes your argument about a tenant hiding the landlord's details from Revenue........

Revenue are far from stupid- and will crank up their resources if they're unhappy with the level of compliance- and chase the naysayers. The penalties and fines alone will scare most people into complying- all others will require investigation- which will take time- but time is something we have lots of........

Its a waiting game- it will take time- and all the time it takes accrues more penalties and fines, its not going to pay for anyone in the long term to try to run and hide........

Personally I don't think we're going to have Residential tax as a separate tax- I think the current local property tax is going to morph into a residential tax after perhaps 4-5 years as officials see how its bedded down.

You can play mind games with Revenue if you like- but they will catch up on you- eventually, and by god, they'll punish you when they do...........

riclad

If there's no payment made yet, my friend has an apartment, she did not know about this tax, does she owe 1000 euro, plus 8 per cent interest on 1000 euro. It was on Joe Duffy show today, he said after august, 2014 if tax is not paid, by then, there will be 7 grand late charge fee.

If they don't charge you, when the house is sold, they will charge you 7k, fee, at least. Before the sale can be completed.

She has the property registered as a rental unit with the PRTB. Pays tax on it since 2010.